The long/intermediate-term vision of this team?

[ZachEY]

What exactly are we building?

The hope, in a bad year, is that you have young guys who show promise.  We've got very little of that.  The guys you've gotta like are Enunwa and Williams.  Lee has been alright too and maybe Jenkins will stick.

Beyond that, what's the vision for this team?

The coach does not seem to game plan at all, just line the guys up and hope for the best.

Our strength (on paper) is a mess, with Richardson being forced to play linebacker and Wilkerson seemingly taking the money and loafing and no one gets to the QB.

We have nothing in the secondary besides an overpaid Revis, who's career is over and who will be long gone before we can fix it and a one-dimensional safety who's not dominant in his one-dimension.  Skrine is garbage and no young talent here either.

There's promise at LB, perhaps the only position where you think that they really might have something to build on.  But again, no one who gets to the QB.

The offensive line is a disaster, with with no discernible young talent developing.  Mangold may still be around, but he's on the decline, and we need a LT and a RT at a minimum.

Bilal Powell remains our best option on the ground, and while you like him as a player, Bilal Powell should not be your best option on the ground.  Forte is a nice piece, but a shell of what he was and long gone before anything else is fixed.

At WR, we have Enunwa (Thanks, Idzik), which is the only real reason to be hopeful.  Devin Smith is Mac's Dee Milliner, and is unlikely to ever be a contributor.  Maybe one of the young guys can turn into something, but odds are long against.  But, Marshall and Decker will be long gone before we fix all the holes needed to be competitive.

And of course, we have Ryan Fitzpatrick and Geno Smith, neither of whom will be on the team next year, and rightfully so.  Then we have a project and an even bigger project at the QB position, neither of whom have given us any reason to think they can start in this league just yet.

So, outside of complaining... My question is, what is the plan?  How does this somehow become a competitive team, and when?

[dbatesman]

"Our players suck, but at least you've heard of all of them."

[CrazyCarl40]

Well when you put it like that.. ::openly weeping::

[Kleckineau]

16 minutes ago, gEYno said:

So, outside of complaining... My question is, what is the plan?  How does this somehow become a competitive team, and when?

This team does not improve as long as Mac (Idzik in sheeps clothing) is the GM.

Just examine a few of his decisions.

Forte ? Really ? If you run replays of him you dont need the slo mo button.

Fitz? 12M OMFG 12M??

Hackenberg? I honestly think this guy might have been undrafted but Jets take him in the 2nd?

Darron Lee? HA this guy is gonna get killed out there.

Devin Smith?  another 2nd wasted.

Lets not even get into the without a clue head coach.

 

[Jetsfan80]

The defensive performance (or lack thereof) is immensely disturbing, even moreso than our current QB situation.  If there's no plan there, then "finding a QB" won't matter, at least under this coaching staff, unless we find a future all-time great under center who can make up for our deficiencies on the other side of the ball. 

Just how much draft capital and cap dollars do we have to spend on our defense to make it a good unit, let alone elite?  It's pathetic. 

Since we're likely not firing Bowles this offseason no matter how poorly we play, we have to hope he'll show signs of significant improvement as a HC, or it's going to be rinse & repeat all over again.  Macc is far from safe too. 

[Hael]

We need a lot of draft picks and a lot of time.  There's really no way around it.  I'd consider trading our 2nd rounder down for extra picks in this draft or the one after.  You pick best player available, outside of DT and just go from there.  We have almost the entire team to rebuild, and OL, secondary and qb is going to take literally forever, bc of the high bust rate.

[Augustiniak]

well, the 2 best players on defense are the two guys mccags picked, williams and lee.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Hael said:

We need a lot of draft picks and a lot of time

 

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

well, the 2 best players on defense are the two guys mccags picked, williams and lee.  

 

Trading Sheldon Richardson in the offseason seems highly appropriate given these 2 points.  That does nothing to solve our "vision" problem but it'll help net us some quality draft assets.  Macc just can't f*ck it up. 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 

Trading Sheldon Richardson in the offseason seems highly appropriate given these 2 points.  That does nothing to solve our "vision" problem but it'll help net us some quality draft assets.  

mccags vision of a 'competitive rebuild' looked good last season.  the problem is still the qb, has been since forever.  it wouldn't matter if they had a real TE.  it wouldn't matter if they had ivory.  the offensive struggles can be fixed if one of the two young qbs pans out.  but i think bowles needs to go to fix the defense, he doesn't know how to use his personnel.  the front 7 had its best game when richardson was suspended.

[sourceworx]

NFL football is all about the QB.

Find one of those, and everything else will fall into place.

[Integrity28]

Look at the standings. There's 1-2 elite defenses that have helped their teams in the standings, then the rest of the standings are dictated by offense. Oakland has no defense, they are leading the AFC West. 

We've invested everything in defense for a decade+ and it keeps getting worse. 

[Integrity28]

4 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

mccags vision of a 'competitive rebuild' looked good last season.  the problem is still the qb, has been since forever.  it wouldn't matter if they had a real TE.  it wouldn't matter if they had ivory.  the offensive struggles can be fixed if one of the two young qbs pans out.  but i think bowles needs to go to fix the defense, he doesn't know how to use his personnel.  the front 7 had its best game when richardson was suspended.

Agreed. It's a fine philosophy, the big 3 issues we're having this year are: QB, playing guys out of position (Skrine, Decker, Forte, Sheldon, etc.), and entry-level gameplanning/coaching.

[sourceworx]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Look at the standings. There's 1-2 elite defenses that have helped their teams in the standings, then the rest of the standings are dictated by offense. Oakland has no defense, they are leading the AFC West. 

We've invested everything in defense for a decade+ and it keeps getting worse. 

Exactly. The rule changes have basically turned this league into Arena Football. All you need is a quarterback. From now on use every draft pick on one until you hit. Every single f*cking one.

Fill the other positions with bargain bin free agents.

[shawn306]

4 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

NFL football is all about the QB.

Find one of those, and everything else will fall into place.

How is that working out for Andrew Luck right now ? 

You still IMHO have to build a team from the inside out. The DL you would think would be good so the concentration should be the OL, Get QB after that so at least he has a chance out there. With the shape the OL is in right now Geno, Petty or Hack would not stand a chance

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Integrity28 said:

Agreed. It's a fine philosophy, the big 3 issues we're having this year are: QB, playing guys out of position (Skrine, Decker, Forte, Sheldon, etc.), and entry-level gameplanning/coaching.

this season more than ever, it's glaring how little the prior regimes have invested in the offense.  fitz/forte/marshall/decker - the 4 main guys on the offense - were not drafted by the jets.  neither was clady.  so the 5 most important positions on offense had to be imported.  mccags needs to draft lots of offense, and the pick they're going to have may allow them to trade back and get more picks, if they don't use it on a qb.  

[sourceworx]

Just now, shawn306 said:

How is that working out for Andrew Luck right now ? 

You still IMHO have to build a team from the inside out. The DL you would think would be good so the concentration should be the OL, Get QB after that so at least he has a chance out there. With the shape the OL is in right now Geno, Petty or Hack would not stand a chance

Their long term prospects look better than ours, because they have him. If you have a QB, you can easily fill in the other holes on your team. NFL football is no longer a team sport.

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

mccags vision of a 'competitive rebuild' looked good last season.  the problem is still the qb, has been since forever.  it wouldn't matter if they had a real TE.  it wouldn't matter if they had ivory.  the offensive struggles can be fixed if one of the two young qbs pans out.  but i think bowles needs to go to fix the defense, he doesn't know how to use his personnel.  the front 7 had its best game when richardson was suspended.

 

That's great, but if you're going to rebuild.....rebuild!  While it was fun winning some games last season, you can't be spending heavily or using draft capital on guys like Brandon Marshall, Revis, Matt Forte, etc. if you're going to rebuild properly.  It blocks the possibility of playing young guys when you have established veterans in the way. 

I know its hard to sell a fanbase on a roster devoid of veteran talent, but the long-term gets sacrificed when you do that stuff.  The Browns, for as much as we can make fun of them over the years, finally seem to be doing things properly.  Hue Jackson is the right guy to run that ship and they have tons of draft picks to work with.

It's a sad day when the Browns are doing things better than us. 

[Augustiniak]

2 minutes ago, shawn306 said:

How is that working out for Andrew Luck right now ? 

You still IMHO have to build a team from the inside out. The DL you would think would be good so the concentration should be the OL, Get QB after that so at least he has a chance out there. With the shape the OL is in right now Geno, Petty or Hack would not stand a chance

look at the cowboys.  if you have a quality OL and can run the ball it's so much easier on the qb.  the jets need to (finally) invest premium picks on these positions.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

That's great, but if you're going to rebuild.....rebuild!  While it was fun winning some games last season, you can't be spending heavily or using draft capital on guys like Brandon Marshall, Revis, Matt Forte, etc. if you're going to rebuild properly.  It blocks the possibility of playing young guys when you have established veterans in the way. 

conceptually i agree, but gms don't get forever to rebuild everything at once.  i will say this, mccags does have a real plan to develop qbs, whether it works is another story.  but there is a plan.  the problem is that there was a mirage last year to have a bridge qb, and it's blowing up this season.  they'll never admit it but i believe mccags and bowles would have been thrilled to go 8-8 this year with this schedule, convince the fans they were trying to make the playoffs when in fact it was a year to protect the two young qbs to make a move in year 3.

[ZachEY]

24 minutes ago, Kleckineau said:

This team does not improve as long as Mac (Idzik in sheeps clothing) is the GM.

Just examine a few of his decisions.

Forte ? Really ? If you run replays of him you dont need the slo mo button.

Fitz? 12M OMFG 12M??

Hackenberg? I honestly think this guy might have been undrafted but Jets take him in the 2nd?

Darron Lee? HA this guy is gonna get killed out there.

Devin Smith?  another 2nd wasted.

Lets not even get into the without a clue head coach.

 

Not to defend Macc, but honestly, I don't think he really had a choice with Fitz.  What would the fanbase/media be saying if we did not sign him and were 1-5?

[Ex-Rex]

10 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Look at the standings. There's 1-2 elite defenses that have helped their teams in the standings, then the rest of the standings are dictated by offense. Oakland has no defense, they are leading the AFC West. 

We've invested everything in defense for a decade+ and it keeps getting worse. 

That goes mostly to Rex, Tanny and Idzik. Mac drafted defense first as well this year, but we had to add speed there. Gotta pray that either Petty or Hackenberg are the real deal, but that is a long shot. Fitz right now has the WORST QBR in the NFL and yet Bowles says that he is still the starter. He is the BIGGEST reason the Jets suck right now. No adjustments and excuse making for a QB who just is lost right now "he barely had any time to throw" is a HUGE excuse that isn't even factual. Mac needs to hire his own HC and build a system that works whoever is in there.

[Beerfish]

13 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Look at the standings. There's 1-2 elite defenses that have helped their teams in the standings, then the rest of the standings are dictated by offense. Oakland has no defense, they are leading the AFC West. 

We've invested everything in defense for a decade+ and it keeps getting worse. 

We are always behind the curve in how we build our team, other franchises are always a head of the curve. 

[ZachEY]

19 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

mccags vision of a 'competitive rebuild' looked good last season.  the problem is still the qb, has been since forever.  it wouldn't matter if they had a real TE.  it wouldn't matter if they had ivory.  the offensive struggles can be fixed if one of the two young qbs pans out.  but i think bowles needs to go to fix the defense, he doesn't know how to use his personnel.  the front 7 had its best game when richardson was suspended.

Sure.  But where does that QB come from.  We're probably not going to be picking #1, and we don't know if Kizer is coming out, and there aren't any great prospects from what I've heard.  And all of that is in the event we think we should take a QB.  We just invested a 2nd round pick in one, we very well may pass again, much like we did with Carr/Bridgewater because Geno Smith.

[JustInFudge]

47 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What exactly are we building?

The hope, in a bad year, is that you have young guys who show promise.  We've got very little of that.  The guys you've gotta like are Enunwa and Williams.  Lee has been alright too and maybe Jenkins will stick.

Beyond that, what's the vision for this team?

The coach does not seem to game plan at all, just line the guys up and hope for the best.

Our strength (on paper) is a mess, with Richardson being forced to play linebacker and Wilkerson seemingly taking the money and loafing and no one gets to the QB.

We have nothing in the secondary besides an overpaid Revis, who's career is over and who will be long gone before we can fix it and a one-dimensional safety who's not dominant in his one-dimension.  Skrine is garbage and no young talent here either.

There's promise at LB, perhaps the only position where you think that they really might have something to build on.  But again, no one who gets to the QB.

The offensive line is a disaster, with with no discernible young talent developing.  Mangold may still be around, but he's on the decline, and we need a LT and a RT at a minimum.

Bilal Powell remains our best option on the ground, and while you like him as a player, Bilal Powell should not be your best option on the ground.  Forte is a nice piece, but a shell of what he was and long gone before anything else is fixed.

At WR, we have Enunwa (Thanks, Idzik), which is the only real reason to be hopeful.  Devin Smith is Mac's Dee Milliner, and is unlikely to ever be a contributor.  Maybe one of the young guys can turn into something, but odds are long against.  But, Marshall and Decker will be long gone before we fix all the holes needed to be competitive.

And of course, we have Ryan Fitzpatrick and Geno Smith, neither of whom will be on the team next year, and rightfully so.  Then we have a project and an even bigger project at the QB position, neither of whom have given us any reason to think they can start in this league just yet.

So, outside of complaining... My question is, what is the plan?  How does this somehow become a competitive team, and when?

I've been complaining about this all year long and last.  What's the vision?  What's the identity?  What type of team are they trying to be?  Has Todd Bowles ever said to the media or the team what he wants this team to be?  Knock Rex all you want, he had an identity and an idea of what he wanted his teams to be and it looks to be coming to fruition in Buffalo...what's the vision here?  Is there a direction?  How can you have goals or direction without a vision? 

I get that this year was supposed to be veteran led playoff team but now that you've failed miserably at that...now what? 

The answer is, there isnt one.  

Basically, we hired a bunch of hacks that have no ******* clue what they're doing and the worst part about it is...you cant knock Woddy because the ****er actually approached this regime change the right way.

[ZachEY]

14 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

That's great, but if you're going to rebuild.....rebuild!  While it was fun winning some games last season, you can't be spending heavily or using draft capital on guys like Brandon Marshall, Revis, Matt Forte, etc. if you're going to rebuild properly.  It blocks the possibility of playing young guys when you have established veterans in the way. 

I know its hard to sell a fanbase on a roster devoid of veteran talent, but the long-term gets sacrificed when you do that stuff.  The Browns, for as much as we can make fun of them over the years, finally seem to be doing things properly.  Hue Jackson is the right guy to run that ship and they have tons of draft picks to work with.

It's a sad day when the Browns are doing things better than us. 

I agree that if you're going to rebuild, you've got to do it.  But, with that, again, what are we building?  There's very, very little on this team right now that you look at and say, that's the future.

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Sure.  But where does that QB come from.  We're probably not going to be picking #1, and we don't know if Kizer is coming out, and there aren't any great prospects from what I've heard.  And all of that is in the event we think we should take a QB.  We just invested a 2nd round pick in one, we very well may pass again, much like we did with Carr/Bridgewater because Geno Smith.

besides the two qbs mccags has drafted, you have deshawn watson, kaaya and anyone else who emerges.  i don't think the jets are making a 2nd half run at mediocrity this season.  they still have to play NE 2x and it could be with petty.  they are trending towards a top 10 pick.  they are no lock to beat the ravens or rams either.

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, gEYno said:

I agree that if you're going to rebuild, you've got to do it.  But, with that, again, what are we building?  There's very, very little on this team right now that you look at and say, that's the future.

It's better to start from scratch and build an identity as you go than to try to mix "win now" with "bring in young talent" but not have a clue what you're doing.  We wanted to win both now AND the future and it seems to not be working. 

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

Basically, we hired a bunch of hacks that have no ******* clue what they're doing and the worst part about it is...you cant knock Woddy because the ****er actually approached this regime change the right way.

I think you absolutely CAN knock Woody at this point.  He has no clue how to hire the people to run the ship, so he had to bring in Wolf and Casserly, who have no vested interest in our team, nor did they care if Macc and Bowles actually worked out.  I mean, maybe they'd get another gig in the future of hiring a GM/HC combo for another clueless owner if they nailed this, but I doubt that mattered much to them. 

If an owner can't pick successful people to work under him, he's a worthless owner. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

It's better to start from scratch and build an identity as you go than to try to mix "win now" with "bring in young talent" but not have a clue what you're doing.  We wanted to win both now AND the future and it seems to not be working. 

there's a lot of young players with upside on this team.  the failures can largely be attributed to vets like fitz and revis who won't be here next year, and inferior defensive coaching.  

[UnitedWhofans]

16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

It's a sad day when the Browns are doing things better than us. 

Really? The 0-6 Browns who have had a revolving door of head coaches?

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

I've been complaining about this all year long and last.  What's the vision?  What's the identity?  What type of team are they trying to be?  Has Todd Bowles ever said to the media or the team what he wants this team to be?  Knock Rex all you want, he had an identity and an idea of what he wanted his teams to be and it looks to be coming to fruition in Buffalo...what's the vision here?  Is there a direction?  How can you have goals or direction without a vision? 

I get that this year was supposed to be veteran led playoff team but now that you've failed miserably at that...now what? 

The answer is, there isnt one.  

Basically, we hired a bunch of hacks that have no ******* clue what they're doing and the worst part about it is...you cant knock Woddy because the ****er actually approached this regime change the right way.

I agree there's no identity, and that's a part of the problem.  But, to a degree, I'm talking about something different.  How do we get from point A, where we are now, to point B, contender?  Macc has had two drafts and the needle hasn't moved far from that 4-12 team he inherited.

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

there's a lot of young players with upside on this team.  the failures can largely be attributed to vets like fitz and revis who won't be here next year, and inferior defensive coaching.  

Revis will likely be here next year, unfortunately.  Financially, we can't really afford to cut him until after 2017.  Only a trade would make any sense, and I doubt anyone wants to give much of anything for a corner with declining skills playing on a bloated contract.  We're stuck with him 1 more year.

Fitz is gone for sure, however. 

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I think you absolutely CAN knock Woody at this point.  He has no clue how to hire the people to run the ship, so he had to bring in Wolf and Casserly, who have no vested interest in our team, nor did they care if Macc and Bowles actually worked out.  I mean, maybe they'd get another gig in the future of hiring a GM/HC combo for another clueless owner if they nailed this, but I doubt that mattered much to them. 

If an owner can't pick successful people to work under him, he's a worthless owner. 

That's BS. Robert Kraft did the exact same thing 

[Beerfish]

One huge problem is that the team has no idea what to do with some players.

They have zero idea what to do with Sheldon Richardson so they are playing him everywhere,.  He's a friggin disruptive Dlineman that should be wreaking havoc on the other teams oline and his off the line playing LB.

Bilal Powell, no clue what to do with him, they bring him in on 3rd down passing downs, but wait that is Fortes best aspect.

Pryor, a guy that can smack but cannot cover for long or deep, don;t know what to do with him.

[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

besides the two qbs mccags has drafted, you have deshawn watson, kaaya and anyone else who emerges.  i don't think the jets are making a 2nd half run at mediocrity this season.  they still have to play NE 2x and it could be with petty.  they are trending towards a top 10 pick.  they are no lock to beat the ravens or rams either.

Oh, I agree.  But 4 more wins could be problematic towards the QB cause.  As for playing Petty, what makes you think that Fitz isn't the 16 game starter at this point?