Step 1: Fix the Organizational Structure

[BigRy56]

Oh great, this stuff again. The Jets are losing because we don't have a quarterback. Woody isn't the reason that we don't have a quarterback. 

He is a fine owner that actually cares about trying to win. Some owners are completely hands off, indifferent, and unwilling to spend money regularly. 

[Powpow]

5 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

This is the GM's job.  I suppose Wolfe and Casserly set it up this way because this is how Woody wants it.  I expect that the only hope is that over time Mac grows into his job and so Woody allows him more and more control.    

Exactly. This thread is absurd. If Mac wants to fire Bowles then he should be allowed to do so. Woody needs to stay out of ALL football decisions after he hires his GM. If he doesn't like how its progressing THEN move on and hire someone else.  With that said, In Mac (or Bowles) I do not trust.

[bealeb319]

Woody did the right thing and sought professional guidance to hire the right people to set the team in the right direction. The people he brought in are actually doing a pretty good job it just takes time to fix the entire team. Maybe they paid a few players too much in hindsight but they are moves that needed to be made, keep in mind their job is not to make us happy it is to win football games. With revis we added one of the greatest corners of all time back to our roster which was desperate for help at the position while simultaneously ripping him away from the hands of our biggest division rival the contract if I am not mistaken only had 3 years guaranteed and of course it was a lot of money again he is one of the best players at a highly paid position of all time. The Fitz contract also from their perspective had to be done, they had success with the guy last season and of they had stuck with Geno and he flopped on us against the harshest first 6 teams in the first 6 weeks that any team in the NFL had to face the new york fan base would have run our front office out of the city.

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[bealeb319]

Oh great, this stuff again. The Jets are losing because we don't have a quarterback. Woody isn't the reason that we don't have a quarterback. 
He is a fine owner that actually cares about trying to win. Some owners are completely hands off, indifferent, and unwilling to spend money regularly. 

I would say that the teams we played against played a large role in our bad start too. Honestly most of the games we were in until the end but we played some tough teams

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[Jetscode1]

7 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

Imo the question raised in this thread is perhaps the biggest one facing this team, and thus us as fans.

The history of this team is that it endured a long period of ownership by Hess that, as nice a guy as he apparently was, coincided with decades of ineptitude with too infrequent flashes of competence. Things eventually got so bad in the thankfully no longer than it was Kotite era that Hess finally made a big change in the running of the team.  Now we can debate the balance of the long term effects the hiring of Parcells, and the authority he was given, had.  But the immediate consequence was a return to the Champ Game, competence and relevance.

But then Hess died, the team was sold, and Parcells soon was gone.  At that point the team I think was still a contender, with Curtis Martin the inspiring face of the franchise, entering one season with four first round picks.  There was reason for optimism even when Parcells left.  And frankly why not?  Hadn't the Jets put the mediocrity that plagued the team for so long behind us?

What has happened since is subject to a certain amount of debate at the margins, I suppose.  There were after all the two Champ Game appearances.  Before that there was some optimism with Chad.  For most of the season Favre was here, the Jets again looked like contenders.  But on the whole, overall, I think the better argument has been that the team has been on a mostly downward slide, with some upward blips that were, frankly, mirages.

And what has been the constant in that process?  Woody Johnson.

It is beyond question that Woody Johnson has no football background.  he doesn't even really have a business background, having inherited his money.  His initial involvement with the team was to focus on the West Side Stadium deal, which was both really a real estate play, and one, whether well conceived or not, that failed.

Not all ownership involvement in a team's operations is bad.  We all know of the history of the Rooneys, the Maras, the Bowlens.  Even Al Davis in his day had success even if he eventually lost it.  Hell even Jerry Jones has had some successes.

But Woody Johnson? 

Think the Tebow Trade.  Herm Edwards.  Bradway.  Mike T.  Hiring a new GM after he just gave Rex more time, and no authority in the new GM to fire Rex. Ending up with Idzik. Involvement in personnel decisions.

Under the law and economic realities, yes, Woody has the right to run his business the way he chooses.  But has it been a good thing that he has run it the way he has?

No.

Opportunity cost at work...maybe we should have chosen another football team to follow...or is it the an example of sunk cost?

[Jetscode1]

7 hours ago, Maxman said:

That is the wrong word. Jets fans have been very patient. Right now though new regimes pay for the sins of their Father. So it may be a fed up fan base. But I know I have been very patient for a long time. Others have been patient for longer.

Very patient is an understatement...sometimes I think I've taught my now 20+ year old sons that brand loyalty is more important than quality product.

[Jetscode1]

6 hours ago, MaxAF said:

Jury is still out on Mac in my book. The only red flag I see is Hack. He spent money in the LBers, WRers, Secondary, RB and QB. Like it or not signing Fitz was the safe move for him and the team. After the year Fitz had if Geno sucked everyone would be on him for not signing Fitz. If Fitz sucked, plan B....Geno and supporting cast. If Hack turns out to be a bust it was a bad move. If he winds up being a good starting QB, Mac is a genius.

The only thing that gives me hope for Mac are the picks for Petty and Hack.  Draft your favorite each year until you find an answer.

[Jetscode1]

5 hours ago, choon328 said:

Can somebody please provide any evidence that Woody is influencing any football decisions with Mac and Bowles. I get that "the owner is meddling" is a popular excuse but the truth is the Jets didn't overpay for Fitz.  They gave him $12 million, 24th in QB salary,  on a 1 year deal when he wanted a 3 year deal.  And he's playing like his contract suggests he should play, poorly. I'm sure the front office knew that it was more than likely that he would regress but not this badly. The only thing I'm concerned about at this point is that they will stick with Fitz too long and screw up getting an assessment on Petty before next year. 1 more loss and the Petty era needs to begin. 

As a side conversation...did you choose your moniker from the Destroyer series?

[CanadienJetsFan]

8 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

Imo the question raised in this thread is perhaps the biggest one facing this team, and thus us as fans.

The history of this team is that it endured a long period of ownership by Hess that, as nice a guy as he apparently was, coincided with decades of ineptitude with too infrequent flashes of competence. Things eventually got so bad in the thankfully no longer than it was Kotite era that Hess finally made a big change in the running of the team.  Now we can debate the balance of the long term effects the hiring of Parcells, and the authority he was given, had.  But the immediate consequence was a return to the Champ Game, competence and relevance.

But then Hess died, the team was sold, and Parcells soon was gone.  At that point the team I think was still a contender, with Curtis Martin the inspiring face of the franchise, entering one season with four first round picks.  There was reason for optimism even when Parcells left.  And frankly why not?  Hadn't the Jets put the mediocrity that plagued the team for so long behind us?

What has happened since is subject to a certain amount of debate at the margins, I suppose.  There were after all the two Champ Game appearances.  Before that there was some optimism with Chad.  For most of the season Favre was here, the Jets again looked like contenders.  But on the whole, overall, I think the better argument has been that the team has been on a mostly downward slide, with some upward blips that were, frankly, mirages.

And what has been the constant in that process?  Woody Johnson.

It is beyond question that Woody Johnson has no football background.  he doesn't even really have a business background, having inherited his money.  His initial involvement with the team was to focus on the West Side Stadium deal, which was both really a real estate play, and one, whether well conceived or not, that failed.

Not all ownership involvement in a team's operations is bad.  We all know of the history of the Rooneys, the Maras, the Bowlens.  Even Al Davis in his day had success even if he eventually lost it.  Hell even Jerry Jones has had some successes.

But Woody Johnson? 

Think the Tebow Trade.  Herm Edwards.  Bradway.  Mike T.  Hiring a new GM after he just gave Rex more time, and no authority in the new GM to fire Rex. Ending up with Idzik. Involvement in personnel decisions.

Under the law and economic realities, yes, Woody has the right to run his business the way he chooses.  But has it been a good thing that he has run it the way he has?

No.

Great post. I completely agree. Many of Woody's decisions leave you scratching your head. Business wise, many of his moves were nothing but short term solutions driven to put asses in the seats all the while capturing the next day's sports headlines. Why would someone buy a franchise and not try to replicate what the successful franchises have done? I've come to the conclusion that like most things you'll find your answer by simply following the money. Woody comes from wealth but I highly doubt it that he had 600 million lying around doing nothing. He borrowed it. Them bankers can get pretty pushy you know.

[Ex-Rex]

The only thing I see that may cause trouble is each man's "vision" of the team. Bowles and Mac may or may not be philosophically in sync on personnel and Mac may feel minimized by the fact that he may not have the power to fire a coach the owner hired. It is different dynamic and one that is so Jets.

[LIJetsFan]

10 hours ago, Ex-Rex said:

The only thing I see that may cause trouble is each man's "vision" of the team. Bowles and Mac may or may not be philosophically in sync on personnel and Mac may feel minimized by the fact that he may not have the power to fire a coach the owner hired. It is different dynamic and one that is so Jets.

I agree with your sentiment but............why do so many here always feel the urge to add....."and one that is so Jets"  This attitude bugs me to no end.  It's become a given that the vast majority of posters will add something like this to an otherwise ok post, and I for one am tired of it.  

Sorry Ex-Rex, this isn't aimed at you specifically   

[faba]

It really all comes back to not finding that QB that can take you to the upper level of the league-that search still continues unfortunately

[jack48]

The Jet set-up is weird.  I could see having both of these guys report to a football guy as President, but I cannot see them reporting to a wind surfer whose kids get helicoptered to school.  Woody is a tool. He may be a nice tool, but he should not have hands on operational control.  They should have hired a football executive (a President or Director of Football OPs or whatever) and let him structure everything else.  Chain of command.

[Big Blocker]

17 hours ago, varjet said:

The point I was trying to make was that the Jets current structure is different and apparently inferior.

How many other teams have the GM and Coach both reporting to someone who is not a football person and whose interest is not primarily in creating a great football product?  That article also predates Wolf/Casserly/Macc/Bowles.

There have too many decisions made by this team that seem too curious.

The Browns, Maras and Rooneys of the world breed and know football and have established permanent season ticket fan bases that allow them to focus almost entirely on the football product.

A first time GM and first time coach could use someone to keep them in line.  Right now that person is Woody.  

Let's see how the next off season goes.  if they Jets sign a Cutler or Romo, we know who is calling the shots.

I agree with your overall assessment of the problem.  what the Woody defenders here (really???) don't seen to want to acknowledge is that the part I bolded above is both relatively rare and is what is operationally a real concern.  Sure it does not mean that every decision made by the Jets is bad, or that Macc will fail, is destined to fail.  But it is a setup that runs greater risks of failure.

But I don't agree that a possible signing of the mentioned players would in itself be conclusive evidence of dysfunction.  That's another subject.

[Big Blocker]

17 hours ago, varjet said:

Here is the AFC.  I will try to do the NFC Later.

Patriots-BB has total control. Answers to a smart owner Kraft. Two smart guys.  Super Bowls.

Jets-HC and GM report to non-football owner.  Continual odd decisions.

Bills-HC reports to GM.  Team doing better with smart personnel decisions.  They draft Ronald Darbys now, not Scotty McKnights.

Ravens-Ozzie Newsome has full control.  Super Bowls.

Bengals-GM has full control.  Well run team.

Steelers-GM, HC and Money guy report to Art Rooney.  Family is in the football business for 50+ years.

Texans-GM, HC, Money Guy report to owner's son.  Like the Jets. How have they been historically?

Colts-not clear but it looks like HC and GM report to an Irsay.  Family in football a long time. Not without their issues either post-Polian.

Jaguars-HC and GM report to owner.  Hmm.

Titans-All report to a corporate type.  Hmm.

Broncos-HC reports to Elway as GM, who reports to a representative of the owner.  Well run franchise.

Chiefs-HC (Andy Reid, not Todd Bowles) and GM report Clark Hunt (family in the business for 50 years)

Raiders-HC reports to GM, Reggie McKenzie.  They are getting it together.

Chargers-GM and HC report to a Spanos, who reports to another Spanos.  Spanos knows football, but they are another enigma.

 

It does not appear to me that the Jets are following a well-established model with a record of success.  The Jets need to be more like the Broncos and put smart capable people between the owner and the football people.  Kubiak also reports to Elway, and Kubiak has been coaching 10 years.

Nice post, and you make an excellent point here.  I don't really consider the Colts an outlier despite their current problems since they did recently win a Super Bowl.  The other one at least on the surface is the Chargers, but there I think the extent to which they know football as in being competent about is problematic.  In other words however much they should be competent based on their ongoing involvement in football, the Spanos family clearly is not an effective one when it comes to running that team.  But... that example hardly means it's better (as for the Jets) to have someone who knows less about football than your average poster here involved in running the team.

And oh yeah referring to Kraft as smart, as much as I hate the Pats, is accurate.  Can't say the same about Woody.

[Big Blocker]

14 hours ago, BigRy56 said:

Oh great, this stuff again. The Jets are losing because we don't have a quarterback. Woody isn't the reason that we don't have a quarterback. 

He is a fine owner that actually cares about trying to win. Some owners are completely hands off, indifferent, and unwilling to spend money regularly. 

Woody has been the owner for nearly 17 years.  How is it going?

[JustInFudge]

17 hours ago, varjet said:

Here is the AFC.  I will try to do the NFC Later.

Patriots-BB has total control. Answers to a smart owner Kraft. Two smart guys.  Super Bowls.

Jets-HC and GM report to non-football owner.  Continual odd decisions.

Bills-HC reports to GM.  Team doing better with smart personnel decisions.  They draft Ronald Darbys now, not Scotty McKnights.

Ravens-Ozzie Newsome has full control.  Super Bowls.

Bengals-GM has full control.  Well run team.

Steelers-GM, HC and Money guy report to Art Rooney.  Family is in the football business for 50+ years.

Texans-GM, HC, Money Guy report to owner's son.  Like the Jets. How have they been historically?

Colts-not clear but it looks like HC and GM report to an Irsay.  Family in football a long time. Not without their issues either post-Polian.

Jaguars-HC and GM report to owner.  Hmm.

Titans-All report to a corporate type.  Hmm.

Broncos-HC reports to Elway as GM, who reports to a representative of the owner.  Well run franchise.

Chiefs-HC (Andy Reid, not Todd Bowles) and GM report Clark Hunt (family in the business for 50 years)

Raiders-HC reports to GM, Reggie McKenzie.  They are getting it together.

Chargers-GM and HC report to a Spanos, who reports to another Spanos.  Spanos knows football, but they are another enigma.

 

It does not appear to me that the Jets are following a well-established model with a record of success.  The Jets need to be more like the Broncos and put smart capable people between the owner and the football people.  Kubiak also reports to Elway, and Kubiak has been coaching 10 years.

Out of curiosity, were you're getting some of this from?  

And ultimately, no matter what the structure, the owners are the end all be all. 

 

[varjet]

5 minutes ago, JiF said:

Out of curiosity, were you're getting some of this from?  

And ultimately, no matter what the structure, the owners are the end all be all. 

 

There is an article from a few years ago that summarized each teams ownership structure that was posted on a prior page.  You can scroll back and find it.  It is slightly outdated based on perhaps how some teams now run, but it was very helpful.

My point to make again was not that the Jets current organizational structure is bad by definition.  It was that it was bad for a new HC and a new GM to report directly to an owner who is the ticket business and not in the football business, and it would be helpful if a first year HC like Bowles who otherwise seemed to have positive attributes had someone who knew football to answer to.  It is really more to organize the people have in the way that works most effectively.  if you hire BB, you need to put him in charge.  If you are a Brown, Rooney or Mara who family has been in the football business for almost 100 years, you can take more responsibility.

[BigRy56]

39 minutes ago, Big Blocker said:

Woody has been the owner for nearly 17 years.  How is it going?

The same as it's going for at least 3/4 of the league in the last 17 years. Some have franchise quarterbacks and will contend for/win Superbowls consistently, the vast majority don't. The owner doesn't control that.

[varjet]

6 minutes ago, BigRy56 said:

The same as it's going for at least 3/4 of the league in the last 17 years. Some have franchise quarterbacks and will contend for/win Superbowls consistently, the vast majority don't. The owner doesn't control that.

This is partly true.  The owner can tell the GM that he wants a champion built.  If they don't have a franchise QB, that means the GM needs to get one.  So the GM needs to roll the dice with his first round draft pick to find one.  That may mean foregoing ILBs who have a higher likelihood of NFL success, and maybe the team the following year is not as good as the QB develops.    But for at least half the teams, their franchise QBs were taken either with high 1st round picks "earned" through bad records or traded for, sometimes at substantial cost.   In the latter case in particular, the owner needs to support that.

Honestly, Woody, Tannenbaum, Mangini and Rex did get to the right place for a little while.  They went for the franchise QB, who despite his continued criticism was able to get the Jets to 2 AFCCGs due to his clutch play and credible deep threat.  The question many of us have is whether Woody is supporting an approach today that can get us to the same place.  I don't know the answer.  But I think in June 2017 I will have a better idea.

If the Jets pick another QB high, that tells me they are looking to build for the long term.

If they give Petty and Hack and chance, perhaps sign a veteran, and build the other key positions (OL, edge, corner), that would be a plan.  I would even take Fitz or Geno cheap in that context.

Signing a Mike Glennon for the right price could also be an interesting proposition.

if they go off and try and patch it with Cutler, Romo, Brees etc. with too much money and too many draft picks,I would not approve.

We wait and see.

 

[joewilly12]

2 hours ago, Big Blocker said:

Woody has been the owner for nearly 17 years.  How is it going?

The Jets havent won anything in 47 years you tell me..........

[Big Blocker]

1 hour ago, BigRy56 said:

The same as it's going for at least 3/4 of the league in the last 17 years. Some have franchise quarterbacks and will contend for/win Superbowls consistently, the vast majority don't. The owner doesn't control that.

In fact the Jets have on average had below average Qb play during Woody's ownership, so it is incorrect to equate the Jets with 3.4's of the league over that time.  But my point was how beneficial has it been to have Woody not only as the owner but with his input on team operations? 

It hasn't been.