Pat Mahomes II

[Tinstar]

2 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Agreed, the only QB I would think the Jets are gonna draft is Trubisky, doesn't mean I can't disagree personally, and discuss on a message board.

It Cook or it's Trubisky . Anything else makes absolutely no sense .  And Hackenberg should not be a consideration in the decision making process . A team needs 2 QBs it can depend on, and both men would have 2 more years to force the Jets to choose and by then, we should have a clear choice and another prospect in the pipeline .

[Lupz27]

14 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

It Cook or it's Trubisky . Anything else makes absolutely no sense .  And Hackenberg should not be a consideration in the decision making process . A team needs 2 QBs it can depend on, and both men would have 2 more years to force the Jets to choose and by then, we should have a clear choice and another prospect in the pipeline .

I wasn't saying I want it to be Trubisky, I'm just saying I think the only QB the Jets would consider taking is Trubisky.  I personally think it's Sanchez 2.0.  If you been reading the boards the only QB I endorse for the Jets to draft this year is Mahomes.

[CrazyCarl40]

19 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

It Cook or it's Trubisky . Anything else makes absolutely no sense .  And Hackenberg should not be a consideration in the decision making process . A team needs 2 QBs it can depend on, and both men would have 2 more years to force the Jets to choose and by then, we should have a clear choice and another prospect in the pipeline .

There are more than just those two guys that make sense to the Jets at 6. And Hack will most certainly be a consideration in the decision making of that. This is a pretty naive post. 

[Stark]

14 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

I wasn't saying I want it to be Trubisky, I'm just saying I think the only QB the Jets would consider taking is Trubisky.  I personally think it's Sanchez 2.0.  If you been reading the boards the only QB I endorse for the Jets to draft this year is Mahomes.

I am with you... i do not want Trubisky... why the hell are people all over him? short passes, usually late or behind receiver

[Tinstar]

1 minute ago, Lupz27 said:

I wasn't saying I want it to be Trubisky, I'm just saying I think the only QB the Jets would consider taking is Trubisky.  I personally think it's Sanchez 2.0.  If you been reading the boards the only QB I endorse for the Jets to draft this year is Mahomes.

I know what you meant . I also know who you want, but he's not good enough regardless of what you think . Mark Sanchez had /has neither the arm strength. the accuracy or the skill that Trubisky possess . The only thing both have in common is that both have 1 yr as a starter . Even that's not really true, because the kid played in games in 2014 and 2015 and didn't embarrassed himself . 

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

I know what you meant . I also know who you want, but he's not good enough regardless of what you think . Mark Sanchez had /has neither the arm strength. the accuracy or the skill that Trubisky possess . The only thing both have in common is that both have 1 yr as a starter . Even that's not really true, because the kid played in games in 2014 and 2015 and didn't embarrassed himself . 

Funny Trubisky doesn't possess the accuracy, arm strength, or skill of Mahomes.  Not saying he doesn't have those skills, but there not equal to Mahomes.  Mahomes is the best pure talent at QB in this draft.

[Tinstar]

4 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Funny Trubisky doesn't possess the accuracy, arm strength, or skill of Mahomes.  Not saying he doesn't have those skills, but there not equal to Mahomes.  Mahomes is the best pure talent at QB in this draft.

You keep saying that, but the film shows different .  I do like the fact that you will stick to what you believe no matter what thou .

[Lupz27]

9 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

You keep saying that, but the film shows different .  I do like the fact that you will stick to what you believe no matter what thou .

What film are you watching?  Mahomes can throw the ball 65 yards on a fly from his knees, will run about a 4.5 40, throws no look dimes.  Yes his footwork is sh*t, but it doesn't mess up his accuaracy.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, we all have our own opinions.

[legler82]

On January 6, 2017 at 5:29 AM, CrazyCarl40 said:

Quick. Name a QB in the NFL that has come from an air raid college system and has had success at the next level. 

Didn't Aaron Rodgers come from the Bear Raid system, which is a cousin, if you will, of the Air Raid?

[nyjbuddy]

On 1/6/2017 at 0:29 AM, CrazyCarl40 said:

Quick. Name a QB in the NFL that has come from an air raid college system and has had success at the next level. 

Don't see much NFL success on this list : Air raid QBs have bombed in the NFL. Can Jared Goff be the 1st to truly succeed?

Condensed list from article, ordered by pick:

Tim Couch, Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Kevin Kolb, Geno Smith, John Beck, Nick Foles, Josh Heupel, Kliff Klingsbury, B.J. Symons, Case Keenum, Dominque Davis, Graham Harrell, Jared Lorenzen, Jason White, Max Hall, Nate Hybl, Sonny Cumbie, Taylor Potts.

[Lupz27]

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2017-nfl-mock-drafts-profiles-video-clips-highlights-steelers-analysis-breakdowns-news/2017/1/30/14260584/2017-nfl-draft-scouting-report-patrick-mahomes-ii-the-double-edged-sword

 

[Lupz27]

 

Nice little piece on Mahomes II, not just a fluff piece, breaks down both positives, and negatives of his play (though coming to the same conclusion as me ?).

There is always that one guy that can do what others can do equally, or better, but do it so unconventional while still being successful because of stupid physical talent, that's what I see with Mahomes personally, guy steps his front foot behind his back foot while throwing a dime 40 yards on the run which just doesn't seem conceivable, yet his tape shows he can.  I can't recall a QB with the arm talent, and ability to use that arm talent to make throws only a handful of QB's can make with proper mechanics since Favre, but has much more athletic ability then Favre, now the question is can he have the head to make the transition to the NFL game.

I've said he would be the Prescott/Wilson of this draft, but I don't think that is accurate anymore, he won't protect the ball the way those 2 did coming into the league, he is a gunslinger, and he will turn it over a hell of a lot more then those 2 ever did, but I also think he will make a hell of a lot more game changing throws off broken plays then those 2 did in there rookie years.  

Make no mistake thou he will be the most exciting QB to come out, and watch play since Luck if he is allowed to play from day 1 (in no way am I predicting he will have the same success year 1 as Luck unless he lands with the Steelers, and Ben retires).

Man I can't wait for the Combine, this is when all the talk will swith to Mahomes, and the hype train will begin, because of his injury, and the fact he didn't/couldn't play in any showcase bowl games things have been very quiet on the Mahomes front, that will all change in about 1 month.

[sourceworx]

On 1/23/2017 at 7:07 PM, nyjbuddy said:

Don't see much NFL success on this list : Air raid QBs have bombed in the NFL. Can Jared Goff be the 1st to truly succeed?

Condensed list from article, ordered by pick:

Tim Couch, Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel, Kevin Kolb, Geno Smith, John Beck, Nick Foles, Josh Heupel, Kliff Klingsbury, B.J. Symons, Case Keenum, Dominque Davis, Graham Harrell, Jared Lorenzen, Jason White, Max Hall, Nate Hybl, Sonny Cumbie, Taylor Potts.

While I understand the point you're trying to make, none of those guys have the athleticism and arm talent of Mahomes.

[sourceworx]

Double post

[Paradis]

4 hours ago, sourceworx said:

While I understand the point you're trying to make, none of those guys have the athleticism and arm talent of Mahomes.

athletic QBs with an arm are a dime a dozen in college. What makes you think Mahomes is any different? That he doesn't in fact, belong on that list? For all this fawning over his big play ability, none of you have addressed his inability to operate in a pocket, to read defenses, to "feel" pressure. He's made his living in college on throwing to busted coverages and slow dbs. 

He's a project at best. No better than Petty. 

 

[sourceworx]

32 minutes ago, Paradis said:

athletic QBs with an arm are a dime a dozen in college. What makes you think Mahomes is any different? That he doesn't in fact, belong on that list? For all this fawning over his big play ability, none of you have addressed his inability to operate in a pocket, to read defenses, to "feel" pressure. He's made his living in college on throwing to busted coverages and slow dbs. 

He's a project at best. No better than Petty. 

 

Agreed. See Lynch, Paxton.

LOL Sorry man. I had to. 

[T0mShane]

21 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

 

 

There is always that one guy that can do what others can do equally, or better, but do it so unconventional while still being successful because of stupid physical talent, that's what I see with GENO SMITH personally, guy steps his front foot behind his back foot while throwing a dime 40 yards on the run which just doesn't seem conceivable, yet his tape shows he can.  I can't recall a QB with the arm talent, and ability to use that arm talent to make throws only a handful of QB's can make with proper mechanics since Favre, but has much more athletic ability then Favre, now the question is can he have the head to make the transition to the NFL game.

I've said he would be the Prescott/Wilson of this draft, but I don't think that is accurate anymore, he won't protect the ball the way those 2 did coming into the league, he is a gunslinger, and he will turn it over a hell of a lot more then those 2 ever did, but I also think he will make a hell of a lot more game changing throws off broken plays then those 2 did in there rookie years.  

Make no mistake thou he will be the most exciting QB to come out, and watch play since Luck if he is allowed to play from day 1 (in no way am I predicting he will have the same success year 1 as Luck unless he lands with the Steelers, and Ben retires).

Man I can't wait for the Combine, this is when all the talk will swith to SMITH and the hype train will begin, because of his injury, and the fact he didn't/couldn't play in any showcase bowl games things have been very quiet on the SMITH front, that will all change in about 1 month.

 

 

 

[Lupz27]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

 

 

This has to be the dumbest comparison of all time.

[Lupz27]

5 hours ago, Paradis said:

athletic QBs with an arm are a dime a dozen in college. What makes you think Mahomes is any different? That he doesn't in fact, belong on that list? For all this fawning over his big play ability, none of you have addressed his inability to operate in a pocket, to read defenses, to "feel" pressure. He's made his living in college on throwing to busted coverages and slow dbs. 

He's a project at best. No better than Petty. 

 

If you actually watch his tape he makes reads, and adjustments at the LOS, he moves Safties with his eyes, he keeps his eyes downfield while moving in the pocket, and scrambling outside of it, and if your watching his tape your just not watching the same tape I am.

[#27TheDominator]

I always find these "manipulates with his eyes" things bullsh*t.  For one thing, how many DBs do you think can actually see his eyes?  At best they can see what direction his facemask is pointing.  Second, in the video shown, the safety he is allegedly manipulating obviously is assigned to cover the defensive left.  Otherwise he wouldn't be lined up outside the hash.  Is it a surprise that he might be a bit late driving on the WR that came from his far right?  BTW, the D looked like they dropped an LB to cover underneath with the DB dropping to cover exactly the part of the field that play highlights.  The guy made a sh*t play and got turned around, but I'm betting in the film room he is the guy getting blasted, not the guy who was "manipulated." 

manipulate defenders with his eyes.

Seems like a nice project.  We already have a couple.  He seems to sling it Cutler style, with his feet all over the map.  I was not as impressed with his arm as these guys.  On a ton of these balls he just seems to throw it up for grabs. 

[Lupz27]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I always find these "manipulates with his eyes" things bullsh*t.  For one thing, how many DBs do you think can actually see his eyes?  At best they can see what direction his facemask is pointing.  Second, in the video shown, the safety he is allegedly manipulating obviously is assigned to cover the defensive left.  Otherwise he wouldn't be lined up outside the hash.  Is it a surprise that he might be a bit late driving on the WR that came from his far right?  BTW, the D looked like they dropped an LB to cover underneath with the DB dropping to cover exactly the part of the field that play highlights.  The guy made a sh*t play and got turned around, but I'm betting in the film room he is the guy getting blasted, not the guy who was "manipulated." 

manipulate defenders with his eyes.

Seems like a nice project.  We already have a couple.  He seems to sling it Cutler style, with his feet all over the map.  I was not as impressed with his arm as these guys.  On a ton of these balls he just seems to throw it up for grabs. 

Fair enough point.  Also agree we have one to many projects, I've personally seen enough from Petty to know he won't be the goods in the NFL, and would cut bait with him if we draft another QB.

Also there is no denying Mahomes foot work is probably some of the worst you have ever seen at times.

Those throws your not impressed with his arm I would argue are purposely thrown with less zip on the ball, again I'd argue not saying your wrong just from my point of view watching this kid he IMO throws the ball a certain way either touch, zip, high, on a line, ect. for a reason, sometimes that reason was a poor decision.

All in all this is my guy this year, as you all know so I'm gonna continue to post about him, and anything I feel that is relevant news, or info on him mostly in this thread, and discuss with anyone who posts comments in this thread regardless of their opinion on him as a player, and future as a NFL player.

[nyjbuddy]

On 1/23/2017 at 0:02 PM, legler82 said:

Didn't Aaron Rodgers come from the Bear Raid system, which is a cousin, if you will, of the Air Raid?

I thought so too so I had to look it up.

Aaron Rodgers (2003-2004) played under George Cortez / Jeff Tedford.  This is what Tedford had said when Cortez was let go in 2005:

“It was nothing he was doing wrong, by any means,” Tedford explained Thursday. “George was doing a great job. But I was leaning towards going to more of a spread offence and I had a chance to get someone who was really on the cutting edge of the spread offence and wanted to come. I wanted a different approach."  

They actually ran a very balanced offense at Cal: 

Working in tandem with head coach Jeff Tedford, Cortez has made a dramatic impact on the Bears' offense.

As one of the most balanced units in the nation - averaging 256.8 yards rushing and 235.7 yards passing - the 2004 club ranked No. 5 in total offense (492.4 ypg), No. 6 in rushing offense (256.8 ypg) and No. 7 in scoring offense (36.8 ppg) nationally. Under his direction, the Bears featured two Heisman Trophy candidates in running back J.J. Arrington and quarterback Aaron Rodgers, and a returning All-America wide receiver in Geoff McArthur.

The Air Raid System:  "The Scheme is notable for being very pass centric with as many as 65-75% of the calls during a season being a pass play."

[legler82]

4 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I always find these "manipulates with his eyes" things bullsh*t.  For one thing, how many DBs do you think can actually see his eyes?  At best they can see what direction his facemask is pointing.  Second, in the video shown, the safety he is allegedly manipulating obviously is assigned to cover the defensive left.  Otherwise he wouldn't be lined up outside the hash.  Is it a surprise that he might be a bit late driving on the WR that came from his far right?  BTW, the D looked like they dropped an LB to cover underneath with the DB dropping to cover exactly the part of the field that play highlights.  The guy made a sh*t play and got turned around, but I'm betting in the film room he is the guy getting blasted, not the guy who was "manipulated." 

manipulate defenders with his eyes.

Seems like a nice project.  We already have a couple.  He seems to sling it Cutler style, with his feet all over the map.  I was not as impressed with his arm as these guys.  On a ton of these balls he just seems to throw it up for grabs. 

I find the term "project" as bullsh*t.  It's so loosely used nowadays, that it seems every QB prospect short of being Andrew Luck is labelled as such.  I don't see how anyone can look at Mahomes and label him a "project".  Gunslinger, gambler at times, not fundamentally sound yes, but a "project", really?  To me that's lazy evaluating.  Like I argued ad nauseam about Mariota prior to his draft, footwork, is a vastly overrated.  It's a taught skill not a talent.  What one should be evaluating are a QB's feet; are they quick, nimble, agile, coordinated...etc.  I equate it to forming a dance group and deciding between a guy with no rhythm but knows the choreography vs. the guy with great rhythm who hasn't been taught the steps yet.  Hmm, give me that latter all day everyday, you keep the stiff.

Intangibles like, character, intelligence and leadership aside, on football talent alone lumping Mahomes with the likes of Petty and Hackenberg is an insult to him and anyone with eyes.  The kid is a natural, our beloved projects are not.

[Lupz27]

52 minutes ago, legler82 said:

I find the term "project" as bullsh*t.  It's so loosely used nowadays, that it seems every QB prospect short of being Andrew Luck is labelled as such.  I don't see how anyone can look at Mahomes and label him a "project".  Gunslinger, gambler at times, not fundamentally sound yes, but a "project", really?  To me that's lazy evaluating.  Like I argued ad nauseam about Mariota prior to his draft, footwork, is a vastly overrated.  It's a taught skill not a talent.  What one should be evaluating are a QB's feet; are they quick, nimble, agile, coordinated...etc.  I equate it to forming a dance group and deciding between a guy with no rhythm but knows the choreography vs. the guy with great rhythm who hasn't been taught the steps yet.  Hmm, give me that latter all day everyday, you keep the stiff.

Intangibles like, character, intelligence and leadership aside, on football talent alone lumping Mahomes with the likes of Petty and Hackenberg is an insult to him and anyone with eyes.  The kid is a natural, our beloved projects are not.

Preach

[Stark]

54 minutes ago, legler82 said:

I find the term "project" as bullsh*t.  It's so loosely used nowadays, that it seems every QB prospect short of being Andrew Luck is labelled as such.  I don't see how anyone can look at Mahomes and label him a "project".  Gunslinger, gambler at times, not fundamentally sound yes, but a "project", really?  To me that's lazy evaluating.  Like I argued ad nauseam about Mariota prior to his draft, footwork, is a vastly overrated.  It's a taught skill not a talent.  What one should be evaluating are a QB's feet; are they quick, nimble, agile, coordinated...etc.  I equate it to forming a dance group and deciding between a guy with no rhythm but knows the choreography vs. the guy with great rhythm who hasn't been taught the steps yet.  Hmm, give me that latter all day everyday, you keep the stiff.

Intangibles like, character, intelligence and leadership aside, on football talent alone lumping Mahomes with the likes of Petty and Hackenberg is an insult to him and anyone with eyes.  The kid is a natural, our beloved projects are not.

boom

[legler82]

12 hours ago, Paradis said:

athletic QBs with an arm are a dime a dozen in college. What makes you think Mahomes is any different? That he doesn't in fact, belong on that list? For all this fawning over his big play ability, none of you have addressed his inability to operate in a pocket, to read defenses, to "feel" pressure. He's made his living in college on throwing to busted coverages and slow dbs. 

He's a project at best. No better than Petty. 

 

Ugh where to begin?  You are right, athletic QBs with an arm are a dime a dozen in college but the poster you responded referenced "arm talent".  Having an arm relates to arm strength while arm talent includes but is not limited to strength, touch, velocity, accuracy, the ability to throw from various platforms...etc.  So he doesn't belong on the list because as the poster said NONE of them possess the kind of ARM TALENT Mahomes is blessed with.  Mahomes has Cutler, Stafford, Favre, Jeff George type of arm talent.  The Jets and the other QB needy teams in the NFL wish those types talents were a dime a dozen.  Besides confusing arm talent with arm strength, everything else you wrote about Mahomes is wrong and the complete opposite of what he's shown on tape.  He has shown the ability to operate in the pocket, read defenses, feel pressure. I'll add to that he's always keeping his eyes downfield even when he escapes the pocket, probably his best quality and the reason why he makes so many big plays a la Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers.

Based on your post, I'm afraid that you are more of a project as a poster than Mahomes is a QB.

[legler82]

9 hours ago, T0mShane said:

There is always that one guy that can do what others can do equally, or better, but do it so unconventional while still being successful because of stupid physical talent, that's what I see with GENO SMITH personally, guy steps his front foot behind his back foot while throwing a dime 40 yards on the run which just doesn't seem conceivable, yet his tape shows he can.  I can't recall a QB with the arm talent, and ability to use that arm talent to make throws only a handful of QB's can make with proper mechanics since Favre, but has much more athletic ability then Favre, now the question is can he have the head to make the transition to the NFL game.

I've said he would be the Prescott/Wilson of this draft, but I don't think that is accurate anymore, he won't protect the ball the way those 2 did coming into the league, he is a gunslinger, and he will turn it over a hell of a lot more then those 2 ever did, but I also think he will make a hell of a lot more game changing throws off broken plays then those 2 did in there rookie years.  

Make no mistake thou he will be the most exciting QB to come out, and watch play since Luck if he is allowed to play from day 1 (in no way am I predicting he will have the same success year 1 as Luck unless he lands with the Steelers, and Ben retires).

Man I can't wait for the Combine, this is when all the talk will swith to SMITH and the hype train will begin, because of his injury, and the fact he didn't/couldn't play in any showcase bowl games things have been very quiet on the SMITH front, that will all change in about 1 month.

 

You had me until Geno.

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, legler82 said:

You had me until Geno.

Lol he took my post and where ever I said Mahomes name he swapped it out for Geno's.  He either thinks Mahomes is a Air Raid fraud, or in typical Tom Shane fashion just wants to stir the pot in a polular, but controversial thread.

[nyjbuddy]

1 hour ago, legler82 said:

I find the term "project" as bullsh*t.  It's so loosely used nowadays, that it seems every QB prospect short of being Andrew Luck is labelled as such.  I don't see how anyone can look at Mahomes and label him a "project".  Gunslinger, gambler at times, not fundamentally sound yes, but a "project", really?  To me that's lazy evaluating.  Like I argued ad nauseam about Mariota prior to his draft, footwork, is a vastly overrated.  It's a taught skill not a talent.  What one should be evaluating are a QB's feet; are they quick, nimble, agile, coordinated...etc.  I equate it to forming a dance group and deciding between a guy with no rhythm but knows the choreography vs. the guy with great rhythm who hasn't been taught the steps yet.  Hmm, give me that latter all day everyday, you keep the stiff.

Intangibles like, character, intelligence and leadership aside, on football talent alone lumping Mahomes with the likes of Petty and Hackenberg is an insult to him and anyone with eyes.  The kid is a natural, our beloved projects are not.

Let me preface this with, "These comments are not directed at Mahomes' abilities" but rather an alternative definition of "project" player from what I recall Mike Mayock's definition is. When asked what the term "project" QB means to Mayock during the combine a couple years ago he provided a pretty simple answer that I will paraphrase and expand on a little.  Basically Mayock said, for the scouting community not linked to a team i.e draft pundits, the media, etc. a "project" player is a player that needs work on their individual game.  For a QB this could be understanding defenses, understanding offenses, footwork, arm strength, agility, etc.  Things that QBs work on in QB camps or on their own without a team.  For a team scout affiliated with a team, they take it a step farther and measure those abilities against the offensive scheme or wants of the coaching staff.

The reason they apply the "project" label is to indicate that the QB coach and/or the OC need to take time working with the individual player which eats into time working with the entire unit or team.  For example, if a QB comes from a offensive system that does not have many NFL influences, the QB coach needs to spend time educating the player on verbiage, offensive formations, defensive formations, and general NFL concepts.  This time spent with the player may delay the implementation of the playbook, may remove the player from unit/team meetings, and prevent the team from progressing forward.  

The term "project" is applied to a player that will need special individual attention in order to be integrated into the team.  Thus the term "project", applied to Petty, as he was unfamiliar with reading defenses and the offensive concepts used by Chan Gailey's offense.  It took him a year and an off-season of playing Madden to understand these things.  For Hackenberg, it was his throwing mechanics.  Again, these are things that each QB needed to work on and develop separately from the team.

[nyjbuddy]

A couple of good articles about Mahomes (I posted some of the comments I liked):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2680548-2017-nfl-draft-why-texas-techs-patrick-mahomes-should-enter-weak-qb-class

When you isolate specific reads that Mahomes has to make, like a high safety flying into the flats, a crashing man coverage read or a middle of the field safety vacating, he's able to execute NFL-style reads, he's just not asked to do so on a down-to-down basis.

The junior will have a wide spectrum of comparisons. Some may say he has the arm of a Matthew Stafford, a former first overall pick, while others could make the case that his style of play is closer to Johnny Manziel's, who Texas Tech head coach Kliff Kingsbury coached as the offensive coordinator at Texas A&M.

On third down, Mahomes has the arm strength to complete the long ball, against pressure or coverage, even if his feet are inconsistent at times. When Mahomes settles down and works on his mechanics and decision-making, like when he passes up shorter, open passes, he's going to be a special talent, similar to Derek Carr.

In terms of talent, he has the slippery, play-making ability of a Manziel and will have the arm strength near a top-10 passer in the league the moment he's finally drafted. If you isolate just a few plays against Oklahoma, when he threw for 734 passing yards, he has more "flashy plays" than some former first-round picks post in their final seasons.

If a squad can make a forward-thinking move to sit Mahomes early on, as Goff did, they may find huge value in selecting the passer in the first round of this coming draft, where options are limited. The recent history of quarterbacks like Carr, in action, and Goff, in the draft, makes Mahomes the biggest sleeper candidate in this coming draft pool.

https://theringer.com/patrick-mahomes-isnt-another-system-quarterback-ff45c56d17cd#.va0sotxee <- contains a good back story

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/patrick-mahomes-is-the-future-of-college-footballs-spread-offense-and-the-future-is-scary <- contains a good breakdown of the spread offense in college football.

[legler82]

1 minute ago, nyjbuddy said:

A couple of good articles about Mahomes (I posted some of the comments I liked):

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2680548-2017-nfl-draft-why-texas-techs-patrick-mahomes-should-enter-weak-qb-class

When you isolate specific reads that Mahomes has to make, like a high safety flying into the flats, a crashing man coverage read or a middle of the field safety vacating, he's able to execute NFL-style reads, he's just not asked to do so on a down-to-down basis.

The junior will have a wide spectrum of comparisons. Some may say he has the arm of a Matthew Stafford, a former first overall pick, while others could make the case that his style of play is closer to Johnny Manziel's, who Texas Tech head coach Kliff Kingsbury coached as the offensive coordinator at Texas A&M.

On third down, Mahomes has the arm strength to complete the long ball, against pressure or coverage, even if his feet are inconsistent at times. When Mahomes settles down and works on his mechanics and decision-making, like when he passes up shorter, open passes, he's going to be a special talent, similar to Derek Carr.

In terms of talent, he has the slippery, play-making ability of a Manziel and will have the arm strength near a top-10 passer in the league the moment he's finally drafted. If you isolate just a few plays against Oklahoma, when he threw for 734 passing yards, he has more "flashy plays" than some former first-round picks post in their final seasons.

If a squad can make a forward-thinking move to sit Mahomes early on, as Goff did, they may find huge value in selecting the passer in the first round of this coming draft, where options are limited. The recent history of quarterbacks like Carr, in action, and Goff, in the draft, makes Mahomes the biggest sleeper candidate in this coming draft pool.

https://theringer.com/patrick-mahomes-isnt-another-system-quarterback-ff45c56d17cd#.va0sotxee <- contains a good back story

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/patrick-mahomes-is-the-future-of-college-footballs-spread-offense-and-the-future-is-scary <- contains a good breakdown of the spread offense in college football.

Maybe he comes in grasps everything right away and completely outperform everyone else at the position.  Do you still sit him off of principle?  Maybe he comes in and struggles physically and/or mentally.  Do you start him because you invested a high pick on him?  The bold is a BIG pet peeve of mine.  There's not a one size fits all.  Each individual, team and situation is different.  Why must it be pre-determined?  Bring him in camp and let his play and aptitude dictate what to do next.  

[Lupz27]

2 minutes ago, nyjbuddy said:

Let me preface this with, "These comments are not directed at Mahomes' abilities" but rather an alternative definition of "project" player from what I recall Mike Mayock's definition is. When asked what the term "project" QB means to Mayock during the combine a couple years ago he provided a pretty simple answer that I will paraphrase and expand on a little.  Basically Mayock said, for the scouting community not linked to a team i.e draft pundits, the media, etc. a "project" player is a player that needs work on their individual game.  For a QB this could be understanding defenses, understanding offenses, footwork, arm strength, agility, etc.  Things that QBs work on in QB camps or on their own without a team.  For a team scout affiliated with a team, they take it a step farther and measure those abilities against the offensive scheme or wants of the coaching staff.

The reason they apply the "project" label is to indicate that the QB coach and/or the OC need to take time working with the individual player which eats into time working with the entire unit or team.  For example, if a QB comes from a offensive system that does not have many NFL influences, the QB coach needs to spend time educating the player on verbiage, offensive formations, defensive formations, and general NFL concepts.  This time spent with the player may delay the implementation of the playbook, may remove the player from unit/team meetings, and prevent the team from progressing forward.  

The term "project" is applied to a player that will need special individual attention in order to be integrated into the team.  Thus the term "project", applied to Petty, as he was unfamiliar with reading defenses and the offensive concepts used by Chan Gailey's offense.  It took him a year and an off-season of playing Madden to understand these things.  For Hackenberg, it was his throwing mechanics.  Again, these are things that each QB needed to work on and develop separately from the team.

See I would label Mayocks thoughts as unimaginative, and basically what I don't want in an OC, give me a guy who can take talent, and build around it not force the square peg round hole.  Look what Shannahan did with RGIII you think RGIII new sh*t about anything?  Prescott came from the Tebow spread, Mariota was built AROUND not forced to become what the old school NFL coaches want ASAP, be patient, and you can integrate more, and more with these kids as their confidence grows, and you will end up with a R Wilson type player 3 years later who is now what the NFL coaches want a finished product. 

Mayock's thinking is what ruins some of these young QB's.

I agree with the OP about his views on project being nonsense.  Start labeling these guys as NFL starter, NFL backup, and NFL break glass in case of emergency in scouting reports.

I'd label Mahomes Starter ASAP.

Things are so quiet on him right now it's scary, he is going to sky rocket as soon as he hits that combine, and has a pro day.  Guys forget he had no Bowl game, no all star game, is coming off a minor surgery to an unrelated issue for throwing, or running.  Most guys have their hype train well on its way by now because of Bowl season, and all star games, Mahomes will get his started a little late come the last week in February/first week of March.  Can't Wait!

[legler82]

22 minutes ago, nyjbuddy said:

Let me preface this with, "These comments are not directed at Mahomes' abilities" but rather an alternative definition of "project" player from what I recall Mike Mayock's definition is. When asked what the term "project" QB means to Mayock during the combine a couple years ago he provided a pretty simple answer that I will paraphrase and expand on a little.  Basically Mayock said, for the scouting community not linked to a team i.e draft pundits, the media, etc. a "project" player is a player that needs work on their individual game.  For a QB this could be understanding defenses, understanding offenses, footwork, arm strength, agility, etc.  Things that QBs work on in QB camps or on their own without a team.  For a team scout affiliated with a team, they take it a step farther and measure those abilities against the offensive scheme or wants of the coaching staff.

The reason they apply the "project" label is to indicate that the QB coach and/or the OC need to take time working with the individual player which eats into time working with the entire unit or team.  For example, if a QB comes from a offensive system that does not have many NFL influences, the QB coach needs to spend time educating the player on verbiage, offensive formations, defensive formations, and general NFL concepts.  This time spent with the player may delay the implementation of the playbook, may remove the player from unit/team meetings, and prevent the team from progressing forward.  

The term "project" is applied to a player that will need special individual attention in order to be integrated into the team.  Thus the term "project", applied to Petty, as he was unfamiliar with reading defenses and the offensive concepts used by Chan Gailey's offense.  It took him a year and an off-season of playing Madden to understand these things.  For Hackenberg, it was his throwing mechanics.  Again, these are things that each QB needed to work on and develop separately from the team.

If that's the case all collegiate QBs are projects to some various degree as no prospect is perfect.  Hence, why the term is so overused.  There's always something a QB prospect needs to work on or haven't been exposed to.  Even Luck never faced an NFL defense until he got to the league.  I would also hope that individual development is not expected to stop the minute you get drafted.

[#27TheDominator]

On 1/31/2017 at 1:58 PM, legler82 said:

I find the term "project" as bullsh*t.  It's so loosely used nowadays, that it seems every QB prospect short of being Andrew Luck is labelled as such.  I don't see how anyone can look at Mahomes and label him a "project".  Gunslinger, gambler at times, not fundamentally sound yes, but a "project", really?  To me that's lazy evaluating.  Like I argued ad nauseam about Mariota prior to his draft, footwork, is a vastly overrated.  It's a taught skill not a talent.  What one should be evaluating are a QB's feet; are they quick, nimble, agile, coordinated...etc.  I equate it to forming a dance group and deciding between a guy with no rhythm but knows the choreography vs. the guy with great rhythm who hasn't been taught the steps yet.  Hmm, give me that latter all day everyday, you keep the stiff.

Intangibles like, character, intelligence and leadership aside, on football talent alone lumping Mahomes with the likes of Petty and Hackenberg is an insult to him and anyone with eyes.  The kid is a natural, our beloved projects are not.

IMO, pretty much every QB short of Luck and Winston is a project.  They are not day 1 starters and, as with any other position, that equates to a project.  A guy that is not ready, but you hope will be soon.  That is usually the case with NTs too.  I will give you that Mariota is one guy that seemed a project and wasn't and that a bigger guy with an arm is more likely to be able to step in and start before we feel they are technically ready. Not fundamentally sound screams project to me because that is your project, making the guy fundamentally sound.  

I liked your dance analogy, but we will take Brady and Manning all day long and neither of them is particularly quick, nimble or agile.  My actual analysis was that he seemed to flip the ball up there for grabs.  I admit that stylistically, he seems to sling it a bit and I generally prefer more of an over the top delivery which may be why I didn't like the highlight reel much.  Looks more like Cutler or George heaving it and while that isn't an insult per se, it isn't really what I like to watch.

[nyjbuddy]

1 minute ago, Lupz27 said:

See I would label Mayocks thoughts as unimaginative, and basically what I don't want in an OC, give me a guy who can take talent, and build around it not force the square peg round hole.  Look what Shannahan did with RGIII you think RGIII new sh*t about anything?  Prescott came from the Tebow spread, Mariota was built AROUND not forced to become what the old school NFL coaches want ASAP, be patient, and you can integrate more, and more with these kids as their confidence grows, and you will end up with a R Wilson type player 3 years later who is now what the NFL coaches want a finished product. 

Mayock's thinking is what ruins some of these young QB's.

I agree with the OP about his views on project being nonsense.  Start labeling these guys as NFL starter, NFL backup, and NFL break glass in case of emergency in scouting reports.

I'd label Mahomes Starter ASAP.

Things are so quiet on him right now it's scary, he is going to sky rocket as soon as he hits that combine, and has a pro day.  Guys forget he had no Bowl game, no all star game, is coming off a minor surgery to an unrelated issue for throwing, or running.  Most guys have their hype train well on its way by now because of Bowl season, and all star games, Mahomes will get his started a little late come the last week in February/first week of March.  Can't Wait!

Agreed that these players can play right away but not sure what that has to do with the "project" label.  The "project" label does not determine if a QB is startable or not but rather where they are in their individual development.  Will practice time be spent individually working on things or will it be spent working on implementing playbooks and gameplans with the team?  

Even players that are "ready for the NFL", may not start depending on the teams particular situation.  Dak is a good example of this.  After this season, Dak has shown he was "ready for the NFL" but would he have started over Romo is Romo did not get hurt?   "The Dallas Cowboys have another candidate for the backup job behind quarterback Tony Romo." - ESPN.  "It'll be awesome. I'm going to go in there I'm going to work and compete," Prescott said. "I'm going to do the best I can and work as hard as I can and try to outwork everyone there. Pushing Tony Romo, pushing the other guys, Kellen Moore, and just know while I'm doing that I'm making myself better and making my whole team better."