Build the run game ...

[dbatesman]

15 minutes ago, bitonti said:

when it comes to finding left tackles, Quantity rarely equals quality. These guys are almost always high first round picks. Alternatively, some are gifted Jason peter/Jared Veldheer projects but those take years to develop. if the team wants a starter they have to go first round and if there are no first round OT that means there are probably not any "instant starters" in this draft

Assuming we're high enough to get ahold of one (or high enough that we can make a non-team-crippling trade up), do you like any of the QBs in this draft?

[Jetdawgg]

1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Ijalana has been awful at LT. Johnson has been average at C. It'd be best to get an LT and move Ijalana back to RT. Winters is probably going for better money elsewhere, so they will need an RG as well. Fournette is a good player, but they need to get better value in the top five than RB. If it isn't there, then trade back with someone foolish enough to draft a RB top five.

I don't think he has been awful. He started at RT this season and due to injury had to be moved there. He may just need a chance to develop as a LT. Remember that he came from the PS to the bench before starting at RT. He is low cost and has done a decent job. Certainly he has given a few plays up, yes. 

This is exactly what I mean about building upon what is the vs. just tossing it and starting again. Winters is a must keep. 

Fournette is arguably the best RB in the draft. Jets need to upgrade here immensely. The WR's already creat space with the speed they bring to the game. ASJ may develop into a good blocker too. He has the size. Cheaper to get a blue chip RT and wait until a LT can be drafted. 

I think Dallas was foolish to draft Zeke too right?

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Thing is, though, you don't take a RB high in the draft before you have a credible OL.

The Jets DO NOT have a credible OL.

There are no right or wrong ways to do things in the daft - just a bunch of told you so's in hindsight.

The Oline can be fortified through FA and with draft picks - hell they can even potentially swap Richardson for Oline help. Its not like you have to start an Oline from the ground up with all young players.

[hawk]

36 minutes ago, jamesr said:

I found this article about offensive lines interesting :

http://www.nfl.com/labs/sidelines/oline/desktop/offensive-lines.html

Not sure how robust the overall scoring methodology is, but the one area we do really well in is average rushing yards before contact, at 2.6. Bills, Cowboys, Titans and Packers are the teams above us on that front. Overall we're ranked 9th - like I say, not sure on the statistical accuracy, but it doesn't paint a picture of a terrible unit, especially given the injuries we've had there.

The biggest reason the Offensive line doesn't get much push is because the defense is not scared of getting beat on intermediate or over the top.  Make some plays down the field and the holes will begin to magically open up.  No one is scared of Fitzpatrick nor a first time starter.  

[CrazyCarl40]

2 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

I don't think he has been awful. He started at RT this season and due to injury had to be moved there. He may just need a chance to develop as a LT. Remember that he came from the PS to the bench before starting at RT. He is low cost and has done a decent job. Certainly he has given a few plays up, yes. 

This is exactly what I mean about building upon what is the vs. just tossing it and starting again. Winters is a must keep. 

Fournette is arguably the best RB in the draft. Jets need to upgrade here immensely. The WR's already creat space with the speed they bring to the game. ASJ may develop into a good blocker too. He has the size. Cheaper to get a blue chip RT and wait until a LT can be drafted. 

I think Dallas was foolish to draft Zeke too right?

Ijalana has been very bad if you watch the tape of him at LT. I wouldn't be surprised if Petty takes a whack in these next few games because the dude whiffed.

Winters is not a must keep. He is very replaceable and he will likely be able to make more money elsewhere. Good for him. I'm not a big fan of guys who give themselves concussions while committing a costly personal foul penalty.

RBs are a dime a dozen. Of the top fifteen rushers this season, only 3 were drafted in the first round and only one of those was in the top 15 of the draft. It's a fools errand and a wasted pick unless the guys name is AP.

Dallas was not foolish to draft Zeke. They had all the makings of a great offense and needed a running back to compliment a dominant O-Line, great veteran QB, and weapons at TE and WR. The Jets have none of that.

[Beerfish]

18 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Your right - Fournette's better .

I suppose we'll see won;t we.

[Beerfish]

21 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

I don't think he has been awful. He started at RT this season and due to injury had to be moved there. He may just need a chance to develop as a LT. Remember that he came from the PS to the bench before starting at RT. He is low cost and has done a decent job. Certainly he has given a few plays up, yes. 

This is exactly what I mean about building upon what is the vs. just tossing it and starting again. Winters is a must keep. 

Fournette is arguably the best RB in the draft. Jets need to upgrade here immensely. The WR's already creat space with the speed they bring to the game. ASJ may develop into a good blocker too. He has the size. Cheaper to get a blue chip RT and wait until a LT can be drafted. 

I think Dallas was foolish to draft Zeke too right?

Ijalala is 27 and been in the league for 5 years.  He is not going to get much better than he is now.

Dallas had an existing elite oline, the jets have a crap one.

The jets also have no QB and like the Rams and the fail year for Gurley, when your team has a bad oline and no Qb your back is not going to look great in most cases.

[jamesr]

9 minutes ago, hawk said:

The biggest reason the Offensive line doesn't get much push is because the defense is not scared of getting beat on intermediate or over the top.  Make some plays down the field and the holes will begin to magically open up.  No one is scared of Fitzpatrick nor a first time starter.  

But according to this, we ARE getting a good push from our OL ... what we lack is the real threats at RB to make more ground after first contact.

Compare us with Miami, for example ... 21st in yards before contact, but 4th in overall yards per carry. So Ajayi is making lots of yards after contact, but his OL are not getting anywhere near as much initial push.

[SR24]

I wonder if Mac could explore a trade with Cleveland for Joe Thomas involving Wilk or Sheldon. They're being mocked by everyone to take Garrett maybe they'd be interested in adding one of these guys and using the #1 pick on a different position. Idk how the contracts would work out but it may not be a bad idea. We could add Thomas and sign another Olinemen and either draft another one or use the pick on Fournette? idk just a fun thought

[Jerichoholic]

3 minutes ago, jamesr said:

But according to this, we ARE getting a good push from our OL ... what we lack is the real threats at RB to make more ground after first contact.

Compare us with Miami, for example ... 21st in yards before contact, but 4th in overall yards per carry. So Ajayi is making lots of yards after contact, but his OL are not getting anywhere near as much initial push.

Do you feel like oline is not a priority?  Or do you just think a rb is that more important?

[bitonti]

31 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Assuming we're high enough to get ahold of one (or high enough that we can make a non-team-crippling trade up), do you like any of the QBs in this draft?

 

compared to the guys we have on the roster, I like them. Not sure if they are worth the pick but QB's always go before they should. Kizer should be a lock for that top 5 area. The others, we will see. Davis Webb is very interesting but might not be worth the pick. Watson could be a rd 2 Geno Smith type (ugh). My dream outcome is the Jets somehow swoop in and sign Jimmy Garoppolo if the Pats can't trade him first. 

Seriously though I feel better about the team's chances at a QB where they pick than their chances at a LT. I don't really care if the team takes a reach pick on QB, what do they have to lose? That's not how Mac operates tho he's the Bap guy in rd 1. 

If we are being honest though the pick will probably be an edge rusher or DB (and that's probably the smart pick, valuewise)

 

[jamesr]

Just now, Jerichoholic said:

Do you feel like oline is not a priority?  Or do you just think a rb is that more important?

I think it is a priority - I just don't think our current line is as bad as people make out.

We certainly need to sort our tackles out, but the interior is pretty good (assuming we don't lose Winters in FA).

[jamesr]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

compared to the guys we have on the roster, I like them. Not sure if they are worth the pick but QB's always go before they should. Kizer should be a lock for that top 5 area. The others, we will see. Davis Webb is very interesting but might not be worth the pick. Watson could be a rd 2 Geno Smith type (ugh). My dream outcome is the Jets somehow swoop in and sign Jimmy Garoppolo if the Pats can't trade him first. 

Seriously though I feel better about the team's chances at a QB where they pick than their chances at a LT. If I am being honest though the pick will probably be an edge rusher or CB (and that's probably the smart pick)

 

I'm thinking CB too ... let's face it, we have very little there, and you need lots of them in today's game. I know it won't be a popular pick with many, but Milliner is gone, we can't ignore a gaping hole just because our previous picks have washed out.

[Jerichoholic]

7 minutes ago, bitonti said:

compared to the guys we have on the roster, I like them. Not sure if they are worth the pick but QB's always go before they should. Kizer should be a lock for that top 5 area. The others, we will see. Davis Webb is very interesting but might not be worth the pick. Watson could be a rd 2 Geno Smith type (ugh). My dream outcome is the Jets somehow swoop in and sign Jimmy Garoppolo if the Pats can't trade him first. 

Seriously though I feel better about the team's chances at a QB where they pick than their chances at a LT. I don't really care if the team takes a reach pick on QB, what do they have to lose? That's not how Mac operates tho he's the Bap guy in rd 1. 

If we are being honest though the pick will probably be an edge rusher or DB (and that's probably the smart pick, valuewise)

 

 

I'm assuming you do not feel like there will be much of a chance for mobility with value either?

[rangerous]

not that there has been a golden age of jets football since sb3 but if you look at the draft history, only twice has there been some real emphasis on oline in the draft.  the first group started during the walt michaels era when he built his oline from the tackles in.  he drafted marvin powell and chris ward in the first round in the 1978 and 1979.  the next time is during the last herm year when they drafted mangold and brick.  so i'd say they're due as far as emphasising oline in the draft.

[bitonti]

26 minutes ago, Jerichoholic said:

 

I'm assuming you do not feel like there will be much of a chance for mobility with value either?

 

 there's a chance. they can get from 5 to 1 for example, it's far more feasible than getting from 20+ to 1 (like last year) 

[Larz]

the hierarchy of football needs;

get the QB

protect the QB

rush the QB

everything else comes after

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, RoadFan said:

Ya think, maybe, that the fact Dallas has the best Offensive Line in the league by a decent margin has anything to do with their success?  Maybe?!?!

It takes 3 to 4 years to build a top tier O-Line.  If you draft the right guys that is...

3-4 years?  You think the entire line has to be turned over with draft picks to be successful?

OK.  

[varjet]

There are the top free agent OL.   There are definitely some hold the fort players there.

The only position that I think the Jets should invest in older veterans is the OL.  Decent OL play will allow the QBs and RBs to develop.  The key is to ensure that the contract is not too long.  All being said, regardless of what people are saying now about the 2017 QBs and OTs in the Draft, those positions always go higher than expected.

Fournette could be a good pick.  We still have Forte and Powell, and they can split carries while he acclimates and the OL gets built.  Fournette is a once in a decade player.

 

Andrew Whitworth	LT	34	CIN	TBD	$9,000,000	UFA	-
Luke Joeckel	G	25	JAC	TBD	$5,300,400	UFA	-
T.J. Lang	G	29	GB	TBD	$5,200,000	UFA	-
Matt Kalil	LT	27	MIN	TBD	$4,942,650	UFA	-
Sebastian Vollmer	RT	32	NE	TBD	$4,187,500	UFA	-
Evan Mathis	G	35	ARI	TBD	$4,006,900	UFA	-
Jonathan Cooper	G	26	CLE	TBD	$3,637,251	UFA	-
Gosder Cherilus	RT	32	TB	TBD	$3,500,000	UFA	-
Andre Smith	RT	29	MIN	TBD	$3,500,000	UFA	-
Chance Warmack	G	25	TEN	TBD	$3,041,663	UFA	-
Ron Leary	G	27	DAL	TBD	$2,553,000	UFA	-
Mike Remmers	RT	27	CAR	TBD	$2,553,000	UFA	-
Chris Chester	G	33	ATL	TBD	$2,350,000	UFA	-
Byron Bell	RT	27	TEN	TBD	$2,250,000	UFA	-
Riley Reiff	LT	28	DET	TBD	$1,998,425	UFA	-
Kevin Zeitler	G	26	CIN	TBD	$1,886,050	UFA	-
Jordan Mills	RT	25	BUF	TBD	$1,671,000	UFA	-
Austin Pasztor	G	26	CLE	TBD	$1,671,000	UFA	-
Tim Lelito	G	27	NO	TBD	$1,671,000	UFA	-
Matt McCants	RT	27	CLE	TBD	$1,671,000	UFA	-
Joe Hawley	C	28	TB	TBD	$1,664,063	UFA	-
Ted Larsen	G	29	CHI	TBD	$1,650,000	UFA	-
Marshall Newhouse	RT	28	NYG	TBD	$1,500,000	UFA	-
Jermon Bushrod	G	32	MIA	TBD	$1,500,000	UFA	-

[neckdemon]

6 hours ago, bitonti said:

every year they change the rules to make the QB more important. if you have a QB (like Luck) and a couple of good Receivers (Hilton, moncrief), that's pretty much all you need to win.

They have a couple interesting WR actually but Without a QB they are just moving deck chairs around on the titanic

put it another way the Cowboys' situation doesn't workout as well without Dak's emergence 

 

dak doesn't emerge without that o-line and zeke

[Jetdawgg]

2 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

Ijalana has been very bad if you watch the tape of him at LT. I wouldn't be surprised if Petty takes a whack in these next few games because the dude whiffed.

Winters is not a must keep. He is very replaceable and he will likely be able to make more money elsewhere. Good for him. I'm not a big fan of guys who give themselves concussions while committing a costly personal foul penalty.

RBs are a dime a dozen. Of the top fifteen rushers this season, only 3 were drafted in the first round and only one of those was in the top 15 of the draft. It's a fools errand and a wasted pick unless the guys name is AP.

Dallas was not foolish to draft Zeke. They had all the makings of a great offense and needed a running back to compliment a dominant O-Line, great veteran QB, and weapons at TE and WR. The Jets have none of that.

Al of this from the same guy who said sign Futz. You should really think about your positions here. I watch the tape and the games. He has not been awful. He has not played much and for a guy in a pinch he as been adequate. Petty took a hit in the PS because of Shell being awful.

Winters is a must keep. The Jets developed him and they need the continuity that he brings. This staff has developed players and Winters is one of them. He may make more somewhere else and he should if he can. RB's are not a dime a dozen. Many are not used correctly by the offense that they play in, like the Jets using BP and Forte.

Dallas developed the offensive line that they have. When you develop players by giving them time to grow you stand a better chance of winning in this league.

[Jetdawgg]

1 hour ago, Beerfish said:

Ijalala is 27 and been in the league for 5 years.  He is not going to get much better than he is now.

Dallas had an existing elite oline, the jets have a crap one.

The jets also have no QB and like the Rams and the fail year for Gurley, when your team has a bad oline and no Qb your back is not going to look great in most cases.

Ijalana has not played at a position for all 5 of those years. This is the most extensive play that I have seen him perform on the Jets.

Dallas developed their OL. It did not happen in one season. The Jets OL is not a crap one. The Jets have had real issues at QB. The OL has dealt with stacked boxes due to the weak armed QB many here cried for. 

Fournette would be an instant upgrade for the Jets and they need to grab him if they can.

[rangerous]

11 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

Ijalana has not played at a position for all 5 of those years. This is the most extensive play that I have seen him perform on the Jets.

Dallas developed their OL. It did not happen in one season. The Jets OL is not a crap one. The Jets have had real issues at QB. The OL has dealt with stacked boxes due to the weak armed QB many here cried for. 

Fournette would be an instant upgrade for the Jets and they need to grab him if they can.

it all goes hand in hand.  fitz has more than enough mobility to avoid the rush and he did make good throws to some spots on the field. what will kill and offense more than having a great oline or qb is having to start in bad field position.  the one glaring difference between last season and this season is the number of turnover.  last season they were plus 10 or so.  this season they must be -20.  it is far too easy to blame one player or even one coach without looking at the big picture.  as for the run game, forte is a much different runner than ivory was.  ivory just seemed to get to the hole quicker and wsn't afraid to lower his head and pound.  forte seems to be more deliberate.  of course ivory was always nicked up and missed a few games.

[FidelioJet]

36 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

dak doesn't emerge without that o-line and zeke

I think even Zeke may the product of the o-line.  Honestly, for arguments sake..Jets drafted Zeke and Dak - are the Jets a good team?  I doubt it.  For sure they're both good players but that's the best O-Line in the league and the 2nd best is pretty far behind.

[RoadFan]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

3-4 years?  You think the entire line has to be turned over with draft picks to be successful?

OK.  

Draft picks, yes.  Very good to great O-Lineman are often 1st round picks.  Only 1 per year usually.

And OL aren't superb right out of the gate as rookies. It takes time to adjust to the speed and schemes of the NFL.

So yeah... 3 to 4 years is correct.  I suppose you have a better notion? Lemme guess?  "STBing" for every big name, overrated, or oft-injured, overpriced free agent?

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, RoadFan said:

Draft picks, yes.  Very good to great O-Lineman are often 1st round picks.  Only 1 per year usually.

And OL aren't superb right out of the gate as rookies. It takes time to adjust to the speed and schemes of the NFL.

So yeah... 3 to 4 years is correct.  I suppose you have a better notion? Lemme guess?  "STBing" for every big name, overrated, or oft-injured, overpriced free agent?

You don't need to put together a line of 5 draft picks, 1st round picks.  

There lots of other options,  not just big name, overrated, oft injured and overpriced  free agents.   

Somehwere other than 5 1st round picks on the OL.  I'd bet on it.  I'll bet on less than 4 years too.  

[RoadFan]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You don't need to put together a line of 5 draft picks, 1st round picks.  

There lots of other options,  not just big name, overrated, oft injured and overpriced  free agents.   

Somehwere other than 5 1st round picks on the OL.  I'd bet on it.  I'll bet on less than 4 years too.  

You're not even listening to me.  You assume the Jets pick the right guy every time.  And the really good offensive lineman? They rarely change teams in their prime.

Sure you can overpay for an Alan Faneca on his last legs and get above average production.  But mostly you get Michael Oher, Donald Penn, Austin Howard, and Anthony Collins. Overpaid, useless dreck.

Osemele is the aberration, not the rule.

You can dig in as much as you want.  I'm right about this.

[Jet Nut]

35 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

You're not even listening to me.  You assume the Jets pick the right guy every time.  And the really good offensive lineman? They rarely change teams in their prime.

Sure you can overpay for an Alan Faneca on his last legs and get above average production.  But mostly you get Michael Oher, Donald Penn, Austin Howard, and Anthony Collins. Overpaid, useless dreck.

Osemele is the aberration, not the rule.

You can dig in as much as you want.  I'm right about this.

You're not listening, you can build a good, a really good OL through the draft and thru FA and it doesn't have to take 4 years.  Giants didn't need 4 years to build their OL back in the day, didn't take us 4 years back in the day. The Cowboys, etc, didn't need 4 years. 

[neckdemon]

11 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I think even Zeke may the product of the o-line.  Honestly, for arguments sake..Jets drafted Zeke and Dak - are the Jets a good team?  I doubt it.  For sure they're both good players but that's the best O-Line in the league and the 2nd best is pretty far behind.

i want to say you're not wrong at all. seems like zeke gets 5 yds at a time untouched, then he's pretty fast so he outruns the linebackers

[Jetsplayer21]

It would take YEARS to build a dominant running game.. Since our entire Oline will need to be replaced in a yr or 2.. And Rb.. Since jets haven't invested, or failed in offense draft picks 

[jamesr]

12 hours ago, rangerous said:

it all goes hand in hand.  fitz has more than enough mobility to avoid the rush and he did make good throws to some spots on the field. what will kill and offense more than having a great oline or qb is having to start in bad field position.  the one glaring difference between last season and this season is the number of turnover.  last season they were plus 10 or so.  this season they must be -20.  it is far too easy to blame one player or even one coach without looking at the big picture.  as for the run game, forte is a much different runner than ivory was.  ivory just seemed to get to the hole quicker and wsn't afraid to lower his head and pound.  forte seems to be more deliberate.  of course ivory was always nicked up and missed a few games.

We're at -15 TO differential, 31st in the league.  

Last year we were +6, tied for 8th in the league.

[Jetster]

17 hours ago, RichardTodd27 said:

Great post. It's not very sexy to draft an O-lineman in the early rounds. But it'll pay dividends in 2-3 years down the line.

As long as there's a stud at the top of the draft. I've heard retired lineman on NFL network & ESPN say it's much tougher to scout Olineman because of the spread offenses in college. If we're picking 3rd & unless Joe Thomas is sitting there I want an edge rusher, stud RB like Fournette or a CB (we need badly). 

[rangerous]

15 minutes ago, jamesr said:

We're at -15 TO differential, 31st in the league.  

Last year we were +6, tied for 8th in the league.

thanks for the correction.  somewhere i read that each turnover is worth about 4 points.  imagine if they scored 60 more points over the past 12 games. in any case it shows how the jets just aren't getting the hidden yards that translate into field position, time of possession, and even points.  they must rank near the bottom of the league in terms of net punt yards, kick off returns, penalties, etc.  it means they're playing stupid football.

[Butterfield]

Sign Ron Leary in free agency.  Trade down a couple times in the first round and pick Ryan Ramczyk and Adam Bisnowaty with a couple picks between the late first, and late second rounds.  Use the rest of the early picks on corners.

[NoBowles]

20 hours ago, bitonti said:

every year they change the rules to make the QB more important. if you have a QB (like Luck) and a couple of good Receivers (Hilton, moncrief), that's pretty much all you need to win.

They have a couple interesting WR actually but Without a QB they are just moving deck chairs around on the titanic

put it another way the Cowboys' situation doesn't workout as well without Dak's emergence 

 

I also don't think Dak emerges without that running game