CrazyCarl40 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 14 hours ago, Jetdawgg said: Al of this from the same guy who said sign Futz. You should really think about your positions here. I watch the tape and the games. He has not been awful. He has not played much and for a guy in a pinch he as been adequate. Petty took a hit in the PS because of Shell being awful. Winters is a must keep. The Jets developed him and they need the continuity that he brings. This staff has developed players and Winters is one of them. He may make more somewhere else and he should if he can. RB's are not a dime a dozen. Many are not used correctly by the offense that they play in, like the Jets using BP and Forte. Dallas developed the offensive line that they have. When you develop players by giving them time to grow you stand a better chance of winning in this league. I'm not sure what Fitz has to do with this conversation, but if that's what your argument has resorted to, then by all means die on that sword. As far as Ijalana and Winters is concerned, we'll have to wait and see. Ijalana isn't a LT, but he's decent at RT. Winters is a solid RG and he's going to get paid like a good RG. The Jets won't have the money to keep him. He's gone. Back to the original point about Fournette, here's a good read from Schefter, which pretty much hammers home my point and devalues yours. Enjoy! Running back draft value When LSU running back Leonard Fournette announced his intentions this week to turn pro, it solidified a draft class that NFL executives have been discussing for months. Last summer, one NFL general manager said that the expected 2017 running back draft class would be one of the best in years. He believed that there was no other position that had as much depth in the 2017 draft as at running back. Others have shared similar sentiments. Any team that needs running back help is going to be in business. Fournette is expected to be at the head of the class. "Put him in the top 10 right now," said former Buccaneers general manager and current ESPN analyst Mark Dominik. And over the course of one year, with Dallas running back Ezekiel Elliott running his way into contention for Offensive Rookie of the Year and NFL Most Valuable Player, the conversation about selecting running backs too high in the draft has shifted dramatically. When Fournette's name is mentioned as a potential top-10 pick, no one should question whether it is too high. If the player is worthy, it's simply not. However, the history of running backs drafted in the top five still will be raised. The list is, to say the least, not pretty. Here's a look at the running backs selected among the top five over the past 15 drafts: Once Fournette is off the board, any number of running backs will hear their names called shortly after. Florida State's Dalvin Cook, Stanford's Christian McCaffrey, Texas' D'Onta Foreman, Tennessee's Alvin Kamara, Ohio State'sCurtis Samuel and Georgia's Nick Chubb are expected to be some of the draft's top running back prospects. But one year after Elliott made his mark in Dallas, other running backs are expected to have a chance to make theirs in one of the deeper running back classes in years. -- Adam Schefter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RESNewYork Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 15 hours ago, varjet said: There are the top free agent OL. There are definitely some hold the fort players there. The only position that I think the Jets should invest in older veterans is the OL. Decent OL play will allow the QBs and RBs to develop. The key is to ensure that the contract is not too long. All being said, regardless of what people are saying now about the 2017 QBs and OTs in the Draft, those positions always go higher than expected. Fournette could be a good pick. We still have Forte and Powell, and they can split carries while he acclimates and the OL gets built. Fournette is a once in a decade player. Andrew Whitworth LT 34 CIN TBD $9,000,000 UFA - Luke Joeckel G 25 JAC TBD $5,300,400 UFA - T.J. Lang G 29 GB TBD $5,200,000 UFA - Matt Kalil LT 27 MIN TBD $4,942,650 UFA - Sebastian Vollmer RT 32 NE TBD $4,187,500 UFA - Evan Mathis G 35 ARI TBD $4,006,900 UFA - Jonathan Cooper G 26 CLE TBD $3,637,251 UFA - Gosder Cherilus RT 32 TB TBD $3,500,000 UFA - Andre Smith RT 29 MIN TBD $3,500,000 UFA - Chance Warmack G 25 TEN TBD $3,041,663 UFA - Ron Leary G 27 DAL TBD $2,553,000 UFA - Mike Remmers RT 27 CAR TBD $2,553,000 UFA - Chris Chester G 33 ATL TBD $2,350,000 UFA - Byron Bell RT 27 TEN TBD $2,250,000 UFA - Riley Reiff LT 28 DET TBD $1,998,425 UFA - Kevin Zeitler G 26 CIN TBD $1,886,050 UFA - Jordan Mills RT 25 BUF TBD $1,671,000 UFA - Austin Pasztor G 26 CLE TBD $1,671,000 UFA - Tim Lelito G 27 NO TBD $1,671,000 UFA - Matt McCants RT 27 CLE TBD $1,671,000 UFA - Joe Hawley C 28 TB TBD $1,664,063 UFA - Ted Larsen G 29 CHI TBD $1,650,000 UFA - Marshall Newhouse RT 28 NYG TBD $1,500,000 UFA - Jermon Bushrod G 32 MIA TBD $1,500,000 UFA - Completely agree with you sir. Every off season, you see all these free agent lists and the only list I care about is the available O linemen. With free agency, you are usually paying for past performance. I feel when signing an O linemen, you're much better protected from a drop off in performance than other positions on the field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LWC611 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 11 hours ago, Jet Nut said: You don't need to put together a line of 5 draft picks, 1st round picks. There lots of other options, not just big name, overrated, oft injured and overpriced free agents. Somehwere other than 5 1st round picks on the OL. I'd bet on it. I'll bet on less than 4 years too. But it really helps. I believe in 2009 and 2010 when the Jets went to the AFCG back to back, that O-line was made up of 5 first round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 The drafting a running back early debate is an interesting one to me. I think I see both sides. Probably the best way to improve in the short term, especially without an available franchise QB or LT towards the top of the draft. Overall, I think it's a bad idea though. There's just the general argument against round one RB's. Return on them has been really shaky, many of the league's best were drafted outside of round one. Plus this year the draft is deep in running backs and I'm not sure how many teams really need one enough to pop one in the first. Most importantly, what's the long-term payoff? You're better for a couple of years - less opportunities to find the franchise QB/LT/pass rusher you really need IMO. I think that's a step late in the rebuild and the Jets really need a total rebuild. Also think, either craftily or by accident, the Jets are set up where they don't need an early round back with Powell and Forte not saving much on the cap if they're cut. They wanted a physical back to complement those two and signed Robinson but he got hurt. Imagine they can find a similar back somewhere in the mid-late rounds this year, have him be the third RB, and hope they get lucky and he's a legit centerpiece back. Good to make sure the guy has hands - but stranger things have happened than a mid-late round RB turning into a stud. As an aside, this would be a GREAT draft for the Jets to trade down in if that opportunity arises. Seems like the top ten is going to be littered with defenders - find a defense needy team and swap. Also, broadly I think it's good/intelligent to draft where the draft is strong from a position standpoint and a tier standpoint. This draft seems to be strong at corner, pass rusher, tight end, running back, maybe center and right tackle. All potentially needs. Focus on those spots - preferably pass rusher early. Defense hasn't had a stud edge guy since what - John Abraham? Seem to be plenty of options in this draft and frankly this defense, as much as it's full of big name players, lacks a centerpiece to build around. Edge rusher would be a good start. Although if a left tackle emerges in the top 10 that would be a nice fit too. Those last two paragraphs also obviously go out the window if they think a franchise QB is available in round 1. Go get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 17 hours ago, 56mehl56 said: There are no right or wrong ways to do things in the daft - just a bunch of told you so's in hindsight. Um, I think I'll just say "sure man..." because this notion is too ridiculous to entertain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetdawgg Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 1 hour ago, CrazyCarl40 said: I'm not sure what Fitz has to do with this conversation, but if that's what your argument has resorted to, then by all means die on that sword. As far as Ijalana and Winters is concerned, we'll have to wait and see. Ijalana isn't a LT, but he's decent at RT. Winters is a solid RG and he's going to get paid like a good RG. The Jets won't have the money to keep him. He's gone. Back to the original point about Fournette, here's a good read from Schefter, which pretty much hammers home my point and devalues yours. Enjoy! Running back draft value When LSU running back Leonard Fournette announced his intentions this week to turn pro, it solidified a draft class that NFL executives have been discussing for months. Last summer, one NFL general manager said that the expected 2017 running back draft class would be one of the best in years. He believed that there was no other position that had as much depth in the 2017 draft as at running back. Others have shared similar sentiments. Any team that needs running back help is going to be in business. Fournette is expected to be at the head of the class. "Put him in the top 10 right now," said former Buccaneers general manager and current ESPN analyst Mark Dominik. And over the course of one year, with Dallas running back Ezekiel Elliott running his way into contention for Offensive Rookie of the Year and NFL Most Valuable Player, the conversation about selecting running backs too high in the draft has shifted dramatically. When Fournette's name is mentioned as a potential top-10 pick, no one should question whether it is too high. If the player is worthy, it's simply not. However, the history of running backs drafted in the top five still will be raised. The list is, to say the least, not pretty. Here's a look at the running backs selected among the top five over the past 15 drafts: Once Fournette is off the board, any number of running backs will hear their names called shortly after. Florida State's Dalvin Cook, Stanford's Christian McCaffrey, Texas' D'Onta Foreman, Tennessee's Alvin Kamara, Ohio State'sCurtis Samuel and Georgia's Nick Chubb are expected to be some of the draft's top running back prospects. But one year after Elliott made his mark in Dallas, other running backs are expected to have a chance to make theirs in one of the deeper running back classes in years. -- Adam Schefter Thank you. Every pick in the draft is a crap shoot. The Jets need a name also. They have no offensive identity. They also need to develop their own RB's vice FA all the time. That route has not worked well since Thomas Jones. They do miss Ivory but he was in a pool of RB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 3 hours ago, LWC611 said: But it really helps. I believe in 2009 and 2010 when the Jets went to the AFCG back to back, that O-line was made up of 5 first round picks. Agreed. But they were OUR picks. My point is we can go after the right FAs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LWC611 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 2 hours ago, Jet Nut said: Agreed. But they were OUR picks. My point is we can go after the right FAs Actually Faneca and Woody were not, which supports your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 7 minutes ago, LWC611 said: Actually Faneca and Woody were not, which supports your point. LOL, typo, meant exactly that. They werent our picks. My point to him is you can find OL in FA as well as through the draft. You dont have to wait 5 plus years to put together an OL as he suggests we should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56mehl56 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 5 hours ago, phill1c said: Um, I think I'll just say "sure man..." because this notion is too ridiculous to entertain. For every by the book , this is the way you should draft mantra - there are many exceptions to be found. Prove me wrong if the notion is so ridiculous - it should be easy right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawk Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 23 hours ago, jamesr said: But according to this, we ARE getting a good push from our OL ... what we lack is the real threats at RB to make more ground after first contact. Compare us with Miami, for example ... 21st in yards before contact, but 4th in overall yards per carry. So Ajayi is making lots of yards after contact, but his OL are not getting anywhere near as much initial push. Sorry, I just happen to quote you after reading a few posts. Statistically they may get more push, and as you said, the info may not be reliable. What is visibly obvious, they aren't getting much push, and imo, that is do to the lack of fear in our passing attack. Sanchez was no threat, Smith was no threat, and Fitz was less threating then them. Hopefully the kid can connect on a few of the deep balls. Reps will certainly help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesr Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Just now, hawk said: Sorry, I just happen to quote you after reading a few posts. Statistically they may get more push, and as you said, the info may not be reliable. What is visibly obvious, they aren't getting much push, and imo, that is do to the lack of fear in our passing attack. Sanchez was no threat, Smith was no threat, and Fitz was less threating then them. Hopefully the kid can connect on a few of the deep balls. Reps will certainly help. Petty should be able to make opponents respect the deep ball more - even if he misses more than he hits early on, you have to be aware of it or it'll hurt you. I just hope he continues to get time to look deep - he took plenty shots against Indy but their pass rush isn't exactly terrorizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 7 hours ago, Butterfield said: Sign Ron Leary in free agency. Trade down a couple times in the first round and pick Ryan Ramczyk and Adam Bisnowaty with a couple picks between the late first, and late second rounds. Use the rest of the early picks on corners. When I first read this I thought it said "Sign Ron Yary" I was going to say, he was awesome, but isn't he a little past his prime? I think RB draft value is going to go up. I know that RBs get used up, but that is more reason to draft one. Ride him hard, put him away wet and get a new one when his contract is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop24 Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 I'm not sure why people are against all our best years came when we had Great running backs . Laat real good we drafted was Leon (before the injury) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: When I first read this I thought it said "Sign Ron Yary" I was going to say, he was awesome, but isn't he a little past his prime? I think RB draft value is going to go up. I know that RBs get used up, but that is more reason to draft one. Ride him hard, put him away wet and get a new one when his contract is up. I like drafting RBs. I just don't like drafting RBs so high, with a pick that hopefully will stay with the team through at least 2 contracts. Not to mention, in that 1 contract they're so often banged up or seriously injured. Rough position. I don't dislike getting an older RB on a 2nd/3rd NFL contract as a rule. They aren't typically bank-breakers, can be good for some stability, leadership, and for experience in picking up blitzes that can keep the QB upright. I do dislike it when an older RB costs a draft pick and the team signs two such 2nd/3rd NFL contract RBs at the same time (Forte/Powell), meaning they're not likely getting a younger back for the next 2 drafts unless they get lucky with a late pick or UDFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 26 minutes ago, Scoop24 said: I'm not sure why people are against all our best years came when we had Great running backs . Laat real good we drafted was Leon (before the injury) Thomas Jones was not a "Great running back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop24 Posted December 10, 2016 Share Posted December 10, 2016 6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said: Thomas Jones was not a "Great running back" He wasn't a scrub running back either ..his 3 years here he was probably the most productive back we had outside of Curtis Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phill1c Posted December 12, 2016 Share Posted December 12, 2016 On 12/9/2016 at 4:11 PM, hawk said: Sorry, I just happen to quote you after reading a few posts. Statistically they may get more push, and as you said, the info may not be reliable. What is visibly obvious, they aren't getting much push, and imo, that is do to the lack of fear in our passing attack. Sanchez was no threat, Smith was no threat, and Fitz was less threating then them. Hopefully the kid can connect on a few of the deep balls. Reps will certainly help. Hmm, I think you went just a bit far on this one. I agree with your reasoning. Lack of fear of the deep pass is an issue, probably THE issue. But, in going back years to denigrate Sanchez and Smith, you really ignore the lack of an OL that COULD generate much push AND a lack of threats to throw deep to. Just stick with the present. There's really no need to dredge up past poor performances by QBs when you really didn't do any particularly in-depth research to pinpoint root causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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