Jets Offseason Plan - slash and burn

[De-Jet-Erate/Duane]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

I'm really not seeing what anyone is identifying as positive re: Jalin Marshall?

Has Jalin Marshall been on the field the past few games? I don't remember seeing him play for weeks. Has he been benched because of fumbles?

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/21/2016 at 11:10 AM, CanadaSteve said:

He tried to move up....cost too much.  And there were question marks about how good Mariota and/or Winston would be in the NFL.  You can't throw the farm away on one player.  It costs you years and a job.  Ask the Rams how that feels, specifically Jeff Fisher.

Its unfortunate that NFL does not recognize the need for a developmental league, or a farm system.  How much better would the product be if guys had a place to hone their skills, and a place where teams could bring up players in cases of emergency.  I know college was meant to be that, but coaches need to win games to keep their million dollar jobs, and non-pro offenses work in College.  However, they make, in many cases, unprepared QB's for the professional ranks.

 

Or he was seeking another lopsided trade in his favor that no one was biting on. That's fine if one can get it, but if no one is selling a bargain trade then pay the going rate. The opportunity for a top pick QB isn't there every year, and even if it is then the Jets aren't likely to be in the position to get one at that time. 

It didn't cost too much; he simply didn't want to pay what it cost (even if cost his high 1st+2nd round picks for 2 years). He instead chose the "safe" route. Well the "safe" route may have netted Williams, but the fact is he already had 2 players in the same mold under contract, and it also "safely" led to Devin Smith, Darron Lee, and Christian Hackenberg. So there's "the farm" you say he can't "throw away" to swap Williams - whom he didn't even know would be there at the time - for an a young franchise QB. 

He also wouldn't have used his 4th+7th rd picks on Petty on top of the above, nor re-sign Fitzpatrick, nor the next QB he's going to have to sign/trade for/draft, nor the one(s) after that perhaps, nor the rest of the domino effect of allegedly playing it smart and safe. It still costs a farm, and multiple seasons wasted, to play it safe. That is the very point.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/21/2016 at 7:03 PM, rangerous said:

that assumes that the qb picked is a franchise qb.  thus far there is zero indication that even goff is a franchise qb let alone paxton lynch. see the comparison between petty and goff below.

 

CAREER STATSMORE
Season	Team			Passing										Rushing				Fumbles
		G	GS	Comp	Att	Pct	Yds	Avg	TD	Int	Sck	SckY	Rate	Att	Yds	Avg	TD	FUM	Lost
2016	Los Angeles Rams	5	5	88	161	54.7	879	5.5	4	5	15	138	65.7	6	12	2.0	1	3	2
Petty				75	130	57.7	809	6.2	3	6	11	71	64.6	5	19	3.8	0	1	1

I'm talking about the prior year, when he only needed to move up 4 slots. With Goff, you're also missing the crazy-deep WR corps here that he doesn't remotely have in L.A.  Further, he could have moved up for Wentz, since Cleveland was also selling. He made an offer and Cleveland turned it down. It seems, from his cumulative actions, that he just wouldn't make the move unless he was getting a steal: at least 1st round or more value for Mo. Despite Jets fans/media screaming Mo is worth more than that, no one I the league wanted to pay even that much.

Opportunities were there. He just passed on them. Worst of all, this past year, he passed on them because it seems he had an outright obsession with Christian Hackenberg.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm talking about the prior year, when he only needed to move up 4 slots. With Goff, you're also missing the crazy-deep WR corps here that he doesn't remotely have in L.A.  Further, he could have moved up for Wentz, since Cleveland was also selling. He made an offer and Cleveland turned it down. It seems, from his cumulative actions, that he just wouldn't make the move unless he was getting a steal: at least 1st round or more value for Mo. Despite Jets fans/media screaming Mo is worth more than that, no one I the league wanted to pay even that much.

Opportunities were there. He just passed on them. Worst of all, this past year, he passed on them because it seems he had an outright obsession with Christian Hackenberg.

i was all for the jets getting mariota but the price to move was way too steep.  can you imagine what this team would look like if they, say, traded the picks in rounds 1-4 to move up? i guess you can say they only would've lost their 2nd and 3rd rounders because they took petty in the 4th, but they also would've missed out on leo.  right now leo is the only one on the dline that's actually making plays.  and if they did use so many draft picks on one player then they would've filled the holes with cheap free agents.  the only way it could've worked is if they shipped out either wilk or richardson to move up. and let's step away from hack at the moment.  by all accounts mac is a good talent evaluator.  i don't think he would've picked hack without good consideration. imo where they made their mistake was not getting hack working on his mechanics from day one.  he needs to be ready no later than training camp this year.  it doesn't sound like it.

the bottom line is there are just too many variables.  mac has a plan and we're seeing it play out.

[joewilly12]

22 hours ago, gEYno said:

I'm really not seeing what anyone is identifying as positive re: Jalin Marshall?

Devin Smith also 2 players taking up roster spots contributing nothing. Time to move on. 

[Adoni Beast]

On 12/22/2016 at 10:37 AM, southparkcpa said:

Mike Glennon is in a sweet spot. Dont know what he'll be paid but his agent is looking at yachts right now.

He will command big money IMO.

I dont think he'll get Osweiler $ for two reasons:

1. Osweiler killed the market for unproven QB's demanding big money.

2. Osweiler came off a team where he started half the year and didnt derail a championship team. He only lost his job cause Manning got healthy. Glennon hasnt started in years and has barely played.

He as all free agents will get overpaid. But, I'm not seeing the 18 mil/year deal. I'm thinking more in the 10-12 mil/year range.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm talking about the prior year, when he only needed to move up 4 slots. With Goff, you're also missing the crazy-deep WR corps here that he doesn't remotely have in L.A.  Further, he could have moved up for Wentz, since Cleveland was also selling. He made an offer and Cleveland turned it down. It seems, from his cumulative actions, that he just wouldn't make the move unless he was getting a steal: at least 1st round or more value for Mo. Despite Jets fans/media screaming Mo is worth more than that, no one I the league wanted to pay even that much.

Opportunities were there. He just passed on them. Worst of all, this past year, he passed on them because it seems he had an outright obsession with Christian Hackenberg.

I look at what the Yankees did (different sport) with Chapman and Miller at the deadline. 

[Jetsfan80]

The Browns are rock bottom  There is down from here.

The Browns are in a much better situation than us going forward. Not a great example.

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

i was all for the jets getting mariota but the price to move was way too steep.  can you imagine what this team would look like if they, say, traded the picks in rounds 1-4 to move up? i guess you can say they only would've lost their 2nd and 3rd rounders because they took petty in the 4th, but they also would've missed out on leo.  right now leo is the only one on the dline that's actually making plays.  and if they did use so many draft picks on one player then they would've filled the holes with cheap free agents.  the only way it could've worked is if they shipped out either wilk or richardson to move up. and let's step away from hack at the moment.  by all accounts mac is a good talent evaluator.  i don't think he would've picked hack without good consideration. imo where they made their mistake was not getting hack working on his mechanics from day one.  he needs to be ready no later than training camp this year.  it doesn't sound like it.

the bottom line is there are just too many variables.  mac has a plan and we're seeing it play out.

The team would be better right now if they'd moved up.

Leo is not worth more than Mariota. Leo + D.Smith + Mauldin + D.Lee + Hackenberg is not worth more than Mariota.

Mac has no plan other than trying to not get fired, by giving in to what he believes the fan/media pressure wants (e.g. Fitz, re-signing Mo unless he could get a 1st rounder, all the plunges for old players last year, etc.). 

"Right now"? Seriously? We have 4 wins so excuse me if I don't give a flying F about a single D-lineman - drafted 6th in the country last year - making plays. And it's Maccagnan's business to know how much more valuable a QB is than a handful of other picks, and to know that a team with some 5 starter holes at big-money positions doesn't take a shrimpy ILB with the 20th overall selection as though he had that luxury. Besides, the "only way it could've worked is if they shipped out will or richardson" (as you put it) is also funny since he's kept all 3 for 2 seasons and counting like a dumbass. It sure was special seeing Richardson uselessly line up at ILB while we watched his trade value plummet into the trash.

"by all accounts mac is a good talent evaluator" = this is simply not a true statement. It is the personal opinion of some, and nothing more. His "plan" (as you put it) sucks. What kind of boob drafts major project QBs in back-to-back years so he feels the need to carry 4 freaking QBs (none of them particularly good, to the extent any are good at all).

If one of the QBs truly pans out then my opinion of him will change dramatically. If not, it will remain very low. 

[Sperm Edwards]

On 12/21/2016 at 6:52 PM, dbatesman said:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/12/john-fox-jets-interview-broncos

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2015/01/saints_ryan_pace_chiefs_chris_ballard_decline_jets_general_manager_interview_requests.html

*sigh* 

Why does this team even have fans right now? 

[rangerous]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The team would be better right now if they'd moved up.

Leo is not worth more than Mariota. Leo + D.Smith + Mauldin + D.Lee + Hackenberg is not worth more than Mariota.

Mac has no plan other than trying to not get fired, by giving in to what he believes the fan/media pressure wants (e.g. Fitz, re-signing Mo unless he could get a 1st rounder, all the plunges for old players last year, etc.). 

"Right now"? Seriously? We have 4 wins so excuse me if I don't give a flying F about a single D-lineman - drafted 6th in the country last year - making plays. And it's Maccagnan's business to know how much more valuable a QB is than a handful of other picks, and to know that a team with some 5 starter holes at big-money positions doesn't take a shrimpy ILB with the 20th overall selection as though he had that luxury. Besides, the "only way it could've worked is if they shipped out will or richardson" (as you put it) is also funny since he's kept all 3 for 2 seasons and counting like a dumbass. It sure was special seeing Richardson uselessly line up at ILB while we watched his trade value plummet into the trash.

"by all accounts mac is a good talent evaluator" = this is simply not a true statement. It is the personal opinion of some, and nothing more. His "plan" (as you put it) sucks. What kind of boob drafts major project QBs in back-to-back years so he feels the need to carry 4 freaking QBs (none of them particularly good, to the extent any are good at all).

If one of the QBs truly pans out then my opinion of him will change dramatically. If not, it will remain very low. 

merry christmas to you too!

having a revolving door at coach and gm is no way to build a franchise.  you may not like what he's done but in the context of idzik and even tanny, he's done better.  there are more draft picks contributing to the team than we've seen in a very long time.

as for the opinion of mac being a good talent evaluator, it's not just my opinion but people who are respected throughout the league. as for the 4 qb's, they really had no choice once they used the 4 and the 2 on petty and hackenburg.  they would have looked very foolish if they thried to get either guy through waivers.  and geno still had some trade value before the dealine.  

in hindsight mac's worst move was signing fitz after letting geno go all through the spring and summer camps thinking the job was his.  if fitz was to be signed, it needed to be done right after the season. imo this one decision created some unecessary locker room issues.  you'd think that these guys are professionals and would've taken it in stride but it's plenty clear that geno and sheldon are children and behaved accordingly.

[Sperm Edwards]

6 minutes ago, rangerous said:

merry christmas to you too!

having a revolving door at coach and gm is no way to build a franchise.  you may not like what he's done but in the context of idzik and even tanny, he's done better.  there are more draft picks contributing to the team than we've seen in a very long time.

as for the opinion of mac being a good talent evaluator, it's not just my opinion but people who are respected throughout the league. as for the 4 qb's, they really had no choice once they used the 4 and the 2 on petty and hackenburg.  they would have looked very foolish if they thried to get either guy through waivers.  and geno still had some trade value before the dealine.  

in hindsight mac's worst move was signing fitz after letting geno go all through the spring and summer camps thinking the job was his.  if fitz was to be signed, it needed to be done right after the season. imo this one decision created some unecessary locker room issues.  you'd think that these guys are professionals and would've taken it in stride but it's plenty clear that geno and sheldon are children and behaved accordingly.

What does this have to do with a revolving door at GM?

As of today, his draft picks:

2015

Williams = awesome, but it was impossible for him to mess up this selection so BFD with crediting him here. The rest, so far: D.Smith = worthless, Mauldin stinks, Petty looks like a bad QB with a strong arm, Jarvis Harrison didn't make the team despite our being so thin at G, and Simon is merely ok (and playing behind the 30-something starter Maccagnan brought in; another player that cost a draft pick I might add).

2016

Lee = looks like a 3rd rounder; Hackenberg is a 4th string nothing; Jenkins looks pretty good so far, nothing more; Burris looks terrible; Shell got Petty injured in preseason; Edwards is a freaking punter and is just ok himself; Peake, for all the Macsucking around here, is way down the depth chart even with Decker missing the season.

There's your draft guru.

And I wish his worst move was re-signing Fitz. It isn't even top 5.

[rangerous]

1 minute ago, Sperm Edwards said:

What does this have to do with a revolving door at GM?

As of today, his draft picks:

2015

Williams = awesome, but it was impossible for him to mess up this selection so BFD with crediting him here. The rest, so far: D.Smith = worthless, Mauldin stinks, Petty looks like a bad QB with a strong arm, Jarvis Harrison didn't make the team despite our being so thin at G, and Simon is merely ok (and playing behind the 30-something starter Maccagnan brought in; another player that cost a draft pick I might add).

2016

Lee = looks like a 3rd rounder; Hackenberg is a 4th string nothing; Jenkins looks pretty good so far, nothing more; Burris looks terrible; Shell got Petty injured in preseason; Edwards is a freaking punter and is just ok himself; Peake, for all the Macsucking around here, is way down the depth chart even with Decker missing the season.

There's your draft guru.

you are obviously advocating that both mac and bowles be launched.  tanny messed up the gholston pick. that was also a no brainer. i guess you think that all draft choices need to pan out.  they don't.  remember the year that the bellichicken drafted 3 te's with his first 3 picks?  none of those guys panned out.  the point is mac has probably done better than most.  i only say probably because i don't want to waste the time looking at every other team's drafts.  

[Jetsfan80]

you are obviously advocating that both mac and bowles be launched.  tanny messed up the gholston pick. that was also a no brainer. i guess you think that all draft choices need to pan out.  they don't.  remember the year that the bellichicken drafted 3 te's with his first 3 picks?  none of those guys panned out.  the point is mac has probably done better than most.  i only say probably because i don't want to waste the time looking at every other team's drafts.  

THAT's your case? That every GM blows picks? Come on. That's the equivalent of covering your ears and yelling "La la la can't hear you!!"

[RutgersJetFan]

On 12/21/2016 at 5:52 PM, dbatesman said:

http://www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/12/john-fox-jets-interview-broncos

http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2015/01/saints_ryan_pace_chiefs_chris_ballard_decline_jets_general_manager_interview_requests.html

Lest we not forget Peyton not even bothering to hear Woody's pitch. 

[CanadaSteve]

23 hours ago, gEYno said:

I'm really not seeing what anyone is identifying as positive re: Jalin Marshall?

Then you are not seeing at all.  Are you expecting 7th round picks and UDFA's to step in and start as all-pro's?  You make these picks to DEVELOP players....over time.

Mac is here for a bit.  Get used it.  If in 4 years the Jets are no better off, so be it.  But you have to let a plan actually play out before you judge it.

[NoBowles]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Or he was seeking another lopsided trade in his favor that no one was biting on. That's fine if one can get it, but if no one is selling a bargain trade then pay the going rate. The opportunity for a top pick QB isn't there every year, and even if it is then the Jets aren't likely to be in the position to get one at that time. 

It didn't cost too much; he simply didn't want to pay what it cost (even if cost his high 1st+2nd round picks for 2 years). He instead chose the "safe" route. Well the "safe" route may have netted Williams, but the fact is he already had 2 players in the same mold under contract, and it also "safely" led to Devin Smith, Darron Lee, and Christian Hackenberg. So there's "the farm" you say he can't "throw away" to swap Williams - whom he didn't even know would be there at the time - for an a young franchise QB. 

He also wouldn't have used his 4th+7th rd picks on Petty on top of the above, nor re-sign Fitzpatrick, nor the next QB he's going to have to sign/trade for/draft, nor the one(s) after that perhaps, nor the rest of the domino effect of allegedly playing it smart and safe. It still costs a farm, and multiple seasons wasted, to play it safe. That is the very point.

I gotta be honest, trading up a huge ransom for Winston, Mariota, Goff or Wentz would have been a huge risk. Winston and Mariota were both seen as very high risk propositions for various reasons. Winston had a ton of question marks around his behavior, and many people were questioning whether or not Mariota would translate to the NFL. Its one thing to take those guys in your draft slot, another totally to trade up a ton to get them. Goff was seen as much more of a sure bet, but also was not seen to have a very high NFL ceiling. Wentz on the other hand was said to have a very high ceiling, and also a very unsure thing. 

Your looking at all this with 20/20 hindsight.

[ZachEY]

14 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Then you are not seeing at all.  Are you expecting 7th round picks and UDFA's to step in and start as all-pro's?  You make these picks to DEVELOP players....over time.

Mac is here for a bit.  Get used it.  If in 4 years the Jets are no better off, so be it.  But you have to let a plan actually play out before you judge it.

Sweet hyperbole, bro!  Who needs to make an actual point when you can pat yourself on the back with your reductio ad absurdum!

[UnitedWhofans]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

2016

Lee = looks like a 3rd rounder; Hackenberg is a 4th string nothing; Jenkins looks pretty good so far, nothing more; Burris looks terrible; Shell got Petty injured in preseason; Edwards is a freaking punter and is just ok himself; Peake, for all the Macsucking around here, is way down the depth chart even with Decker missing the season.

There's your draft guru.

And I wish his worst move was re-signing Fitz. It isn't even top 5.

The problem with you is that you are judging draft picks after a year. DUMB

That type of thinking is why Macc did a competitive rebuild

 

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

The Browns are in a much better situation than us going forward. Not a great example.

 

Sadly, true.

No one wants to go 0-16, but as soon as this season ends, the Browns are in a much better situation than the Jets.

[56mehl56]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The problem with you is that you are judging draft picks after a year. DUMB

That type of thinking is why Macc did a competitive rebuild

 

Are you kidding me for most Jets fans that's an enternity. Guys are labeled busts before they even see the field.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, 56mehl56 said:

Are you kidding me for most Jets fans that's an enternity. Guys are labeled busts before they even see the field.

And that's dumb. And the worst part is that the owner thinks that way too to appease the fans.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

you are obviously advocating that both mac and bowles be launched.  tanny messed up the gholston pick. that was also a no brainer. i guess you think that all draft choices need to pan out.  they don't.  remember the year that the bellichicken drafted 3 te's with his first 3 picks?  none of those guys panned out.  the point is mac has probably done better than most.  i only say probably because i don't want to waste the time looking at every other team's drafts.  

False.  There was a ton of warning signs re: Vernon Gholston.  He was drafted due to his tremendous upside, but his busting really wasn't a surprise.

[ZachEY]

Name the recent Jets player that fans called a bust (or even was highly critical of) in year one, who turned out to be a good player?

These narratives are so much harder to maintain when you have to ground them in reality...

[56mehl56]

2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

False.  There was a ton of warning signs re: Vernon Gholston.  He was drafted due to his tremendous upside, but his busting really wasn't a surprise.

He was drafted because our staff fell in love with a workout warrior at the combine.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, 56mehl56 said:

He was drafted because our staff fell in love with a workout warrior at the combine.

Gholston's stock was high before the combine... Still, we're saying basically the same thing, no?

Poor comparison to Leonard Williams.

 

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Name the recent Jets player that fans called a bust (or even was highly critical of) in year one, who turned out to be a good player?

These narratives are so much harder to maintain when you have to ground them in reality...

People were critical of drafting Richardson. I remember that.

Even Leonard Williams

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

People were critical of drafting Richardson. I remember that.

Even Leonard Williams

Fans were critical of those picks because of the position they played, because we had other needs and in both cases, another defensive lineman was not the biggest need on the team.  It had nothing to do with the abilities of the player.  The question at hand is Jets fans calling a player a bust, not giving him enough time to pan out, not whether they liked the draft pick.

So, I pose the question again... What Jets player were fans critical of, that eventually developed.

[Jet Life]

Cant argue with any of this . Would rather roll with Petty / Hack though and tank for Darnold . I understand anything can happen and thats far away, but blow the whole thing up

[UnitedWhofans]

4 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Fans were critical of those picks because of the position they played, because we had other needs and in both cases, another defensive lineman was not the biggest need on the team.  It had nothing to do with the abilities of the player.  The question at hand is Jets fans calling a player a bust, not giving him enough time to pan out, not whether they liked the draft pick.

So, I pose the question again... What Jets player were fans critical of, that eventually developed.

Brian Winters. I think Powell and Enunwa were thought of as wasted players

[ZachEY]

20 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Brian Winters. I think Powell and Enunwa were thought of as wasted players

People were critical of Winters, as I recall.  So, no argument on him.  But, I'd like to see some kind of consensus, not one person making a post, regarding the other two.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

People were critical of Winters, as I recall.  So, no argument on him.  But, I'd like to see some kind of consensus, not one person making a post, regarding the other two.

I probably am wrong. I think that was more a prospect of never seeing them.

But I still think, in order to be fair, that the picks should be developed and wait on judgement.

 

[NoBowles]

40 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Name the recent Jets player that fans called a bust (or even was highly critical of) in year one, who turned out to be a good player?

These narratives are so much harder to maintain when you have to ground them in reality...

Why are we limiting this to recent Jets players? There are plenty of examples of players who became much better as their careers went on after not looking good early on. Nobody thought anything of Enunwa before last year.

Sounds to me like your more interested in your agenda than anything.

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I probably am wrong. I think that was more a prospect of never seeing them.

Interestingly, my recollection was the criticism of both players were the same, meh hands.  Which, still could be described as an issue, but has improved in both cases.

The overarching point, I don't think Jets fans pull the plug on players too quickly.  In fact, if a player shows us anything, I think we fall in love with them... The problem is, we're adding a lot of players who are showing nothing.  In year one, you don't have to be an "all pro" or whatever CanadaSteve said, but we should see some flashes of the player you might become.  A lot of the young guys on the team right now, we're not even getting that.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Interestingly, my recollection was the criticism of both players were the same, meh hands.  Which, still could be described as an issue, but has improved in both cases.

The overarching point, I don't think Jets fans pull the plug on players too quickly.  In fact, if a player shows us anything, I think we fall in love with them... The problem is, we're adding a lot of players who are showing nothing.  In year one, you don't have to be an "all pro" or whatever CanadaSteve said, but we should see some flashes of the player you might become.  A lot of the young guys on the team right now, we're not even getting that.

In terms of flashes, I think Lee, Burris, Shell, Anderson and Petty have shown some flashes