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Warfish

Responsabillity: Chan, and the Jets Lack of Fullbacks, Tight Ends or QB Development?

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Since we're winding down, and entering "year of failure in review" mode, I'd like to see a discussion on a guy who seems to continue to avoid ANY responsabillity for our current horrorshow of a team.

Chan.

This supposed genius has, IMO, done a piss poor job of getting anything from the talent we have.  His sins:

1. In a TE-driven league, with QB's who needed (desperately) a safety valve option, we have.......no TE's.

2. Played the mediocre Forte over Powell as #1 RB all year long.

3. Misused Forte (a very good pass catcher) as a "slogger" back on 1st and 2nd downs all year long, with obvious results.

4. Is clearly party of why we stuck with Fitzpatrick as long as we did. Too long to all our minds, even Fitz's former supporters.

5. Clearly hated Geno Smith and never, ever believed in him (for you Geno my Hero Fans, ask yourself who was most responsible these last two years for his lack of playing time to "show us" and "have a fair chance", yep, it's Chan, not Bowles).

6. On a team that desperately replied on establishing the running game, we kept......no Fullbacks.  And it showed at times with our constant inability to gain short yards when desperately needed.

7. The supposed "QB Guru" has done.....nothing to develop the QB's we have.  Did he make Geno Smith better?  No.  Petty?  Nope.  Hack?  LOL.  Supposedly this guy could turn sh*t into gold, yet here he turned everything into sh*t at QB, no development, poor game plans and an odd offense with no TE's and no FB's yet reliant on the run and short passing game to succeed.

8. May as well be called "Head Coach:  Offense" as much as Bowles is involved (or knows) about this teams Offense.  Our failures on Offense are not on Bowles, who we all know is a glorified DB Coach at best, they're on Chan.

I hope as this offseason begins that Macc and Co. think about just how out of step our Offense is with the modern NFL, how bad we are at what we're supposed to be good at, and how deely unproductive and undeveloped we were.  

Like Bowles, I believe we can do better than Chan at O-Co.  And I'm not willing to let the "QB Guru" get off scott free with the excuse of "bad QB's".

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4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Since we're winding down, and entering "year of failure in review" mode, I'd like to see a discussion on a guy who seems to continue to avoid ANY responsabillity for our current horrorshow of a team.

Chan.

This supposed genius has, IMO, done a piss poor job of getting anything from the talent we have.  His sins:

1. In a TE-driven league, with QB's who needed (desperately) a safety value option, we have.......no TE's.

2. Played the mediocre Forte over Powell as #1 RB all year long.

3. Misused Forte (a very good pass catcher) as a "slogger" back on 1st and 2nd downs all year long, with obvious results.

4. Is clearly party of why we stuck with Fitzpatrick as long as we did. Too long to all our minds.

5. Clearly hated Geno Smith and never, ever believed in him (for you Geno my Hero Fans, ask yourself who was most responsible these last two years for his lack of playing time to "show us" and "have a fair chance", yep, it's Chan, not Bowles).

6. On a team that desperately replied on establishing the running game, we kept......no Fullbacks.  And it showed at times with our constant inability to gain short yards when desperately needed.

7. The supposed "QB Guru" has done.....nothing to develop the QB's we have.  Did he make Geno Smith better?  No.  Petty?  Nope.  Hack?  LOL.  Supposedly this guy could turn sh*t into gold, yet here he turned everything into sh*t at QB, no development, poor game plans and an odd offense with no TE's and no FB's yet reliant on the run and short passing game to succeed.

8. May as well be called "Head Coach:  Offense" as much as Bowles is involved (or knows) about this teams Offense.  Our failures on Offense are not on Bowles, who we all know is a glorified DB Coach at best, they're on Chan.

I hope as this offseason begins that Macc and Co. think about just how out of step our Offense is with the modern NFL, how bad we are at what we're supposed to be good at, and how deely unproductive and undeveloped we were.  

Like Bowles, I believe we can do better than Chan at O-Co.  And I'm not willing to let the "QB Guru" get off scott free with the excuse of "bad QB's".

there is soooo much wrong, like the players, it's hard to pin any single coach as the biggest problem.  i've seen the oc's being run out of town too often to start automatically believing chan is the issue.  the lack of te production is troubling but the biggest problem on offense is trying to use a qb who is clearly limited in the type of throws he can make along with a oline that just hasn't performed very well.  couple this with bad specials play and a defense that can't stop a nose bleed and you get a 4-12 record.  as for geno, imo, geno is a cancer.  i am willing to admit he didn't get a fair shot and he should've started this season from day one instead of fitz but it is doubtful the record would be any better.

we'll see. i hope the entire coaching staff gets an objective evaluation.

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10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

1. In a TE-driven league, with QB's who needed (desperately) a safety valve option, we have.......no TE's.

In what universe is this the offensive coordinator's fault?

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

2. Played the mediocre Forte over Powell as #1 RB all year long.

3. Misused Forte (a very good pass catcher) as a "slogger" back on 1st and 2nd downs all year long, with obvious results.

Correct and correct. 

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

4. Is clearly party of why we stuck with Fitzpatrick as long as we did. Too long to all our minds, even Fitz's former supporters.

5. Clearly hated Geno Smith and never, ever believed in him (for you Geno my Hero Fans, ask yourself who was most responsible these last two years for his lack of playing time to "show us" and "have a fair chance", yep, it's Chan, not Bowles).

Based on...?

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

6. On a team that desperately replied on establishing the running game, we kept......no Fullbacks.  And it showed at times with our constant inability to gain short yards when desperately needed.

In what universe is this the offensive coordinator's fault?

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

7. The supposed "QB Guru" has done.....nothing to develop the QB's we have.  Did he make Geno Smith better?  No.  Petty?  Nope.  Hack?  LOL. 

Or maybe all of those guys are terrible at football, and terribleness isn't a thing that can be coached out of a player.

15 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I hope as this offseason begins that Macc and Co. think about just how out of step our Offense is with the modern NFL, how bad we are at what we're supposed to be good at, and how deely unproductive and undeveloped we were.  

I hope they think about the fact that we have literally six good players on the entire roster, but that's just me.

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Actually number 5 is not true.  When Gailey got here he was fully on board with Geno as #1.  I remember because I was pissed off at the time as I wanted some sort of QB competition with Fitz at the time but Gailey insisted on giving Fitz no reps...until of course Geno gets laid out in locker room.

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Actually number 5 is not true.  When Gailey got here he was fully on board with Geno as #1.  I remember because I was pissed off at the time as I wanted some sort of QB competition with Fitz at the time but Gailey insisted on giving Fitz no reps...until of course Geno gets laid out in locker room.


Dead on I remember saying the same thing. He also doesn't have personnel control.

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Starts at the GM. He had no TE's to work with so they kept 4 plus the Q.

Futz was horrific at QB. Killed the season for the Jets.

Chan seriously under used BP and over played Forte. No FB is again on the GM who clearly misconfigured the roster.

Chan is not the whole problem and does not get a pass. IMO he tried to work with what he had. When the QB is throwing picks left and right particularly in the red zone, things look as bad as they are. 

The real issue with this team is the inadequate GM. I hope that next season he has the Jets set at the QB position long before OTA's and TC/PS. To let a guy come in off of the streets with Futz's talent level and believe that he can lead a Pro Football team is pure fantasy/Madden stuff.

If the Jets are to get real in this league it has to start there.

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5 hours ago, dbatesman said:

In what universe is this the offensive coordinator's fault?

Correct and correct. 

Based on...?

In what universe is this the offensive coordinator's fault?

Or maybe all of those guys are terrible at football, and terribleness isn't a thing that can be coached out of a player.

I hope they think about the fact that we have literally six good players on the entire roster, but that's just me.

Thanks Idzik!

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35 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

Actually number 5 is not true.  When Gailey got here he was fully on board with Geno as #1.  I remember because I was pissed off at the time as I wanted some sort of QB competition with Fitz at the time but Gailey insisted on giving Fitz no reps...until of course Geno gets laid out in locker room.

Yeah, sure, I beleive this, and I believe Santa was at my house last night too.

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1 hour ago, SickJetFan said:

Actually number 5 is not true.  When Gailey got here he was fully on board with Geno as #1.  I remember because I was pissed off at the time as I wanted some sort of QB competition with Fitz at the time but Gailey insisted on giving Fitz no reps...until of course Geno gets laid out in locker room.

You're living in a fantasy if you think Chan didn't have the last and only word on which QB's were kept and which played.

Like the "no, really, Chan LOVED Geno, but....." excuses, it's a way to keep living a dream (Geno was good!) that was never real.  Chan hated Geno, and only played him when his guy, Fitz, was utterly untenable publicly.

 

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6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

You're living in a fantasy if you think Chan didn't have the last and only word on which QB's were kept and which played.

Like the "no, really, Chan LOVED Geno, but....." excuses, it's a way to keep living a dream (Geno was good!) that was never real.  Chan hated Geno, and only played him when his guy, Fitz, was utterly untenable publicly.

 

Well I am just by what actually happened 

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

You're living in a fantasy if you think Chan didn't have the last and only word on which QB's were kept and which played.

Well, in that case, he liked Geno just fine, because he was the starter until he got his jaw broken.

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8 hours ago, Warfish said:

5. Clearly hated Geno Smith and never, ever believed in him (for you Geno my Hero Fans, ask yourself who was most responsible these last two years for his lack of playing time to "show us" and "have a fair chance", yep, it's Chan, not Bowles).

CHan is awful, but there is one reason that Geno doesn't play and that is Geno...even when someone breaks his jaw punching him in the face..it goes back to Geno

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8 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

On what planet is the OC responsible for all of this?  What is this, Madden?

picks the RB, develops the TE, QB?  Had anything to do with the selection of Fitz? Really?  He pressed for Geno from before the start of the season, lol

Chan is entirely responsible for the offense.  You're not going to argue that Bowles is making personnel and starter decision on offense over Chan, are you?  Such a view would be startlingly naive.

So yes, Chan decides who plays RB, and how those RB's fit into his offense.  

Yes, he drives our lack of TE's both on the roster and their non-use in his offense.

Yes, he decides who plays QB (with Bowles acting as mouthpiece when we all see he is a glorified D-Co) and how they are developed (or not).

Yes, of course he had something to do with Fitz.  The idea that the O-Co wouldn't get a prominent say in the QB, especially on a team where the Head Coach basicly handed over the entire offense to the O-Co, is laughable.

"He pressed for Geno".  No, he made a few vaguely positive comments about Geno in the media, which at the time too many people blew up into far more than was real (i.e. typical off season player talking up).  If he wanted Geno to start, be assured, Geno would have started.  Bowles isn;t going to overrule his O-Co when his O-Co runs the entire Offense with no real Bowles input.

Chan has done a horrible job here, but it seems he is getting a pass from some folks, who simply refuse to assign him his proper responsibility for this mess.  This isn't an O-Co under Bill Parcells, this is an O-Co with near total authority on the Offense, who plays in it, how it's run, what plays are called, and yes, what players they pursued at the GM level.

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2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Chan is entirely responsible for the offense.  You're not going to argue that Bowles is making personnel and starter decision on offense over Chan, are you?  Such a view would be startlingly naive.

So yes, Chan decides who plays RB, and how those RB's fit into his offense.  

Yes, he drives our lack of TE's both on the roster and their non-use in his offense.

Yes, he decides who plays QB (with Bowles acting as mouthpiece when we all see he is a glorified D-Co) and how they are developed (or not).

Yes, of course he had something to do with Fitz.  The idea that the O-Co wouldn't get a prominent say in the QB, especially on a team where the Head Coach basicly handed over the entire offense to the O-Co, is laughable.

"He pressed for Geno".  No, he made a few vaguely positive comments about Geno in the media, which at the time too many people blew up into far more than was real (i.e. typical off season player talking up).  If he wanted Geno to start, be assured, Geno would have started.  Bowles isn;t going to overrule his O-Co when his O-Co runs the entire Offense with no real Bowles input.

Chan has done a horrible job here, but it seems he is getting a pass from some folks, who simply refuse to assign him his proper responsibility for this mess.  This isn't an O-Co under Bill Parcells, this is an O-Co with near total authority on the Offense, who plays in it, how it's run, what plays are called, and yes, what players they pursued at the GM level.

Seems more like trying to take blame and dumping it on the wrong person.  

 Vaguely positive comments?  How vague was "Geno is the starting QB"? How vague is Fitz was brought in to be the backup? Not seeing any confusing messages here.  Only one who pulled that back a bit was Bowles who said it was Genos job to lose.  Nothing vague, no confusing what Chan said.  I know it's an about face after some argued forever that Geno never was the starter but this was from Chans mouth, not some naive interpretation of what he said or meant.  Nothing was blown up.  Only to the Fitz fans who refused to hear anything but Fitz is our guy.  

And no, the OC doesn't decide who gets the workload that day, the game plan when decided on dictates with which packages and scenes will be used.  BTW, the knock on Powell is durability is an issue.  That he breaks down.  So to complain that he should have been the lead back because of 2 or 3 games is naive.  Especially since I'm basically his 3rd game he was running hurt.  

Finally there isn't a OC in the league who gets blamed for not having a TE and not using the TE that he doesn't have.  

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4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Seems more like trying to take blame and dumping it on the wrong person.  

 Vaguely positive comments?  How vague was "Geno is the starting QB"? How vague is Fitz was brought in to be the backup? Not seeing any confusing messages here.  Only one who pulled that back a bit was Bowles who said it was Genos job to lose.  Nothing vague, no confusing what Chan said.  I know it's an about face after some argued forever that Geno never was the starter but this was from Chans mouth, not some naive interpretation of what he said or meant.  Nothing was blown up.  Only to the Fitz fans who refused to hear anything but Fitz is our guy.  

And no, the OC doesn't decide who gets the workload that day, the game plan when decided on dictates with which packages and scenes will be used.  BTW, the knock on Powell is durability is an issue.  That he breaks down.  So to complain that he should have been the lead back because of 2 or 3 games is naive.  Especially since I'm basically his 3rd game he was running hurt.  

Finally there isn't a OC in the league who gets blamed for not having a TE and not using the TE that he doesn't have.  

A complete lack of understanding of how this organization is structured and operated.  Not surprising.

So lets address:

1. Saying "Geno is the starter" in the middle of the offseason is irrelevant.  Geno was healthy mid-season last year and all this year, and Chan didn't play him until well after Fitz had lost the season.  If you think that was Bowles decision more than Chan, I would say you simply do not understand how this team is run and give Bowles far too much credit for a guy who has no say whatsoever in the offense or it's personnel use.  Be assured, if Chan told Bowles "Geno is the man, he must play" then Geno would have played.

Actions speak vastly louder than meaningless mid-offseason words.  Especially words told to the media.

2. Yes, the O-Co gets to say who gets the workload and who plays.  Are you kidding me with that?  So your view is Chan says "I want Powell" and Bowles says "**** you Chan, Forte is my man!"  Again, a lack of understanding how this team is operated.

3. As to TE, you have it backwards.  We don't have a TE because Chan doesn't know (it seems) how to utilize one in his system.  So he doesn't demand one.  So the Front Office feels no need to acquire one (or retain one) for anything beyond blocking duties.  Thats rather obvious.

You say I'm looking to blame the "wrong person", sorry, but every person on the JEts today is the "right person" to be blamed, because they all have some responsibility.  The weak attempts by some to shield Chan, or Forte, or Geno or others from their fair share of that burden is silly, but typical of this fanbase tbqh.  

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To sum up, Gailey is responsible for: deciding the entire offensive depth chart; determining the entire offensive game plan, including workload; and makes all trade, free agency, and draft decisions in regards to offensive players. If you can't see that, you are just startlingly naive. Hmm. Yes. Quite.

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On 12/25/2016 at 4:08 PM, Warfish said:

Since we're winding down, and entering "year of failure in review" mode, I'd like to see a discussion on a guy who seems to continue to avoid ANY responsabillity for our current horrorshow of a team.

Chan.

This supposed genius has, IMO, done a piss poor job of getting anything from the talent we have.  His sins:

1. In a TE-driven league, with QB's who needed (desperately) a safety valve option, we have.......no TE's.

2. Played the mediocre Forte over Powell as #1 RB all year long.

3. Misused Forte (a very good pass catcher) as a "slogger" back on 1st and 2nd downs all year long, with obvious results.

4. Is clearly party of why we stuck with Fitzpatrick as long as we did. Too long to all our minds, even Fitz's former supporters.

5. Clearly hated Geno Smith and never, ever believed in him (for you Geno my Hero Fans, ask yourself who was most responsible these last two years for his lack of playing time to "show us" and "have a fair chance", yep, it's Chan, not Bowles).

6. On a team that desperately replied on establishing the running game, we kept......no Fullbacks.  And it showed at times with our constant inability to gain short yards when desperately needed.

7. The supposed "QB Guru" has done.....nothing to develop the QB's we have.  Did he make Geno Smith better?  No.  Petty?  Nope.  Hack?  LOL.  Supposedly this guy could turn sh*t into gold, yet here he turned everything into sh*t at QB, no development, poor game plans and an odd offense with no TE's and no FB's yet reliant on the run and short passing game to succeed.

8. May as well be called "Head Coach:  Offense" as much as Bowles is involved (or knows) about this teams Offense.  Our failures on Offense are not on Bowles, who we all know is a glorified DB Coach at best, they're on Chan.

I hope as this offseason begins that Macc and Co. think about just how out of step our Offense is with the modern NFL, how bad we are at what we're supposed to be good at, and how deely unproductive and undeveloped we were.  

Like Bowles, I believe we can do better than Chan at O-Co.  And I'm not willing to let the "QB Guru" get off scott free with the excuse of "bad QB's".

Been saying that all year. Seems like everyone said I was crazy but now they are jumping on him after what we have seen. I said from day 1 you have to have an all pro QB to play a 4 wideout offense 95% of the time. Only QB who had done this was Kurt Warner. 

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The Jets have on QB or TE and a terrible O line it the GM is the man who picks the player but I do not like his play calling during the game this is on Chan 

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20 hours ago, Warfish said:

A complete lack of understanding of how this organization is structured and operated.  Not surprising.

So lets address:

1. Saying "Geno is the starter" in the middle of the offseason is irrelevant.  Geno was healthy mid-season last year and all this year, and Chan didn't play him until well after Fitz had lost the season.  If you think that was Bowles decision more than Chan, I would say you simply do not understand how this team is run and give Bowles far too much credit for a guy who has no say whatsoever in the offense or it's personnel use.  Be assured, if Chan told Bowles "Geno is the man, he must play" then Geno would have played.

Actions speak vastly louder than meaningless mid-offseason words.  Especially words told to the media.

2. Yes, the O-Co gets to say who gets the workload and who plays.  Are you kidding me with that?  So your view is Chan says "I want Powell" and Bowles says "**** you Chan, Forte is my man!"  Again, a lack of understanding how this team is operated.

3. As to TE, you have it backwards.  We don't have a TE because Chan doesn't know (it seems) how to utilize one in his system.  So he doesn't demand one.  So the Front Office feels no need to acquire one (or retain one) for anything beyond blocking duties.  Thats rather obvious.

You say I'm looking to blame the "wrong person", sorry, but every person on the JEts today is the "right person" to be blamed, because they all have some responsibility.  The weak attempts by some to shield Chan, or Forte, or Geno or others from their fair share of that burden is silly, but typical of this fanbase tbqh.  

 Have a complete lack of understanding how the organization is structured and it's not surprising?

Theres no debate, you're wrong.   You want to find a person to blame not named Fitz, go for it.  You want to think you know more than others, same thing.  But sorry Chan named Geno the starter.  Believed Geno should be and deserved to be the starter. During their first camp.  When they were both healthy.  In your world this isn't true and proves that Chan decided who should start, not Bowles.  How?  Chan wanted Geno, Bowles stopped all that talk then Geno was punched out.  But he was the starter at that time according to Chan.  No motter how hard you argue.  

I get it, in your world Chan is as powerful, if not more powerful than the HC.  He plans the game plan, decides who plays, develops the QB and the TEs.  And I'm naive or have no understanding.  You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about 

I kept it nice, you have a dick twinge to your response, so look in the mirror when it's time to call me out for being pissy

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20 hours ago, dbatesman said:

To sum up, Gailey is responsible for: deciding the entire offensive depth chart; determining the entire offensive game plan, including workload; and makes all trade, free agency, and draft decisions in regards to offensive players. If you can't see that, you are just startlingly naive. Hmm. Yes. Quite.

Right?  Naive.  A lack of understanding.  

More like clueless.  Then again when you were so wrong about the QB maybe blaming someone's not named Fitz is the approach

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7 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

theres no debate, you're wrong.

Because you (of all people) say so?  I think not.  

Quote

You want to find a person to blame not named Fitz, go for it.

Fitz sucked, absolutely, but this was a team-effort of suckatude.  And it appears you hold Chan completely blameless for it, mind boggling tbqh.

Quote

I get it, in your world Chan is as powerful, if not more powerful than the HC.  He plans the game plan, decides who plays, develops the QB and the TEs.  And I'm naive or have no understanding.  You don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about 

I am literally speechless that you believe Chan isn't responsible for those things on this team.

You think our O-Co doesn't plan the Offensive game plan or call the offensive plays?

You think our O-Co doesn't have the first word in who plays on Offense?

You think our O-Co, supposedly famous for his QB development elsewhere, doesn't play a major role in developing our QB's or the decisions on playcalling and use of the TE position?

And I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?  LOL!!!!!!  :rolleyes: 

Quote

I kept it nice, you have a dick twinge to your response, so look in the mirror when it's time to call me out for being pissy

Do you ever stop whining?  Because man it's getting boring at this stage.

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Well.. if all the things Warfish assumes about Chan Gailey's role and input here are indeed true, it's just another reason for letting go of Todd Bowles. And if Bowles goes, you can be sure so does the rest of this sh*tty coaching staff.

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19 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Because you (of all people) say so?  I think not.  

Fitz sucked, absolutely, but this was a team-effort of suckatude.  And it appears you hold Chan completely blameless for it, mind boggling tbqh.

I am literally speechless that you believe Chan isn't responsible for those things on this team.

You think our O-Co doesn't plan the Offensive game plan or call the offensive plays?

You think our O-Co doesn't have the first word in who plays on Offense?

You think our O-Co, supposedly famous for his QB development elsewhere, doesn't play a major role in developing our QB's or the decisions on playcalling and use of the TE position?

And I'm the one who doesn't know what he's talking about?  LOL!!!!!!  :rolleyes: 

Do you ever stop whining?  Because man it's getting boring at this stage.

Speechless?  I'm speechless that you think you're right.  That the OC runs everything from bringing in talent to training and developing that talent to implementing that talent when and the way he sees fit. 

Now fund where I said he doesn't game plan, I clearly said he does.  Or game calling, he can.  What does that have to do with being responsible for the devopment of the TE position? What does the TE coach do on your team?  QB?  The OC, a good one, game plans with his QBs strengths in mind.  He does what it takes to help him succeed with the right plan that is designed around that particular QB.  But he's not teaching the QB how to play, not developing him as the QB coach does.  That's how teams are run, not the way you're telling us it does 

Not because I say so, because you're wrong.  Sorry, of all people I know more about the game than you pretend to know. Being right becomes whining?  If you're bored move on and just play with yourself.  Nasty prick becomes a clueless nasty prick

 

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