Mike Westhoff (The GOAT) on Bowles/Jets. (ESPN Radio)

[Mecca]

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/newyork/play?id=18414486

 

Really fantastic interview. Westhoff continues to shine as one of the most intriguing analysts in the sport. Really a shame how we never gave him an opportunity to be our head coach. It's not about being the best coordinator, but best game manager and leader of men, and I really believe Westhoff would've excelled in New York

 

- He was really hard on Bowles and the mistakes he made.

- The first analyst to imply Bowles wasn't an NFL head coach.

- Also in agreement with me how we're a 4-3 team playing a 3-4. 

 

Really suggest everyone listen to this. Westhoff dropped knowledge all over the place.

[Gen X Jet]

Westoff and Lucas get it.  Bowles is an idiot.  

[ASH1962]

4 minutes ago, Gen X Jet said:

Westoff and Lucas get it.  Bowles is an idiot.  

Well at least our opinions are now validated so to speak. I mean if we as fans see it, surely the organization HAS to see it. These 2 gentlemen do get it and I love listening to them as well and respect both of their opinions. I remember, Chad Cascadden who I like too said Bowltite should be fired after the Indy game right on Jets postgame, it was priceless.

[PCP63]

Still blows my mind every time we trot out in the 3-4. 

[ASH1962]

I totally believe Westhoff actually could go in and draw up the 4-3 he was talking about. That Gentleman knows his stuff and is an awesome listen.

[Sperm Edwards]

So we were a 4-3 team, yet we had with zero starting DEs truly suited for a 4-3, except maybe 3rd round rookie Jenkins. Also he had a MLB in Harris (whose contract was fully guaranteed these past 2 seasons at top 5 ILB money) that had no ability to cover enough ground from sideline to sideline, and was still arguably the team's best LB. If Jenkins was moved to RDE, ready or not, and one of our DT bodies stayed at left end, then maybe. But then we'd have an even bigger logjam at inside tackle positions, where we'd still have at least 3 starters for only 2 positions (not to mention gobs of open field behind the line). 

I like Westhoff a lot, and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do, but the reality IMO is we are neither. Our front 7 - no matter how talented any individuals in it might be - is so mishmashed they are cohesively/collectively suited for neither. 

[CrazyCarl40]

15 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So we were a 4-3 team, yet we had with zero starting DEs suited for the 4-3 - except maybe 3rd round rookie Jenkins - and a MLB that had no ability to cover enough ground from sideline to sideline. If Jenkins was moved to RDE, and one of our DT bodies stayed at left end, then maybe. But then we'd have an even bigger logjam at inside tackle positions, where we'd still have at least 3 starters for only 2 positions. 

I like Westhoff a lot, and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do, but the reality IMO is we are neither. Our front 7 - no matter how talented any individuals in it might be - is so mishmashed they are cohesively/collectively suited for neither. 

It just shows how far off the same page Macc and Bowles are. The personnel don't fit the scheme. Also, there is no one more overrated by these boards than Westhoff. Sweet Jesus. 

[joewilly12]

10 minutes ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It just shows how far off the same page Macc and Bowles are. The personnel don't fit the scheme. Also, there is no one more overrated by these boards than Westhoff. Sweet Jesus. 

Westhoff overrated???????????  Bwahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh good one Carl the ones who these boards loathe are vastly overrated and in over their heads. 

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It just shows how far off the same page Macc and Bowles are. The personnel don't fit the scheme. Also, there is no one more overrated by these boards than Westhoff. Sweet Jesus. 

Meh. I really like Westhoff and enjoy his input. Still, I don't know how good of a HC he'd have been. It's one thing to wag his cane at a bunch of kids on the roster bubble. The rest of this roster's guaranteed mega-millions winning ticket holders would've told him to piss off, right before burying that cane in his eye socket. 

I just don't think going with 4 guys all 300-350 lbs is exactly your prototypical 4-3 line. More like a 3-4 line with an extra fatbody. 

I stand by my prior post; I don't think a zillion DTs and then drafting a 220-lb ILB with the 20th pick in the country is a good design for any scheme. That is, unless Maccagnan & Bowles are the innovators, whose mold that the rest of the league will be mimicking in an attempt to repeat this greatness for themselves. Probably not, though.

[jetscrazey]

Agree, it's too bad Westhoff never got a shot as an NFL head coach.  Would have liked to have seen what he can do.

[rangerous]

9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meh. I really like Westhoff and enjoy his input. Still, I don't know how good of a HC he'd have been. It's one thing to wag his cane at a bunch of kids on the roster bubble. The rest of this roster's guaranteed mega-millions winning ticket holders would've told him to piss off, right before burying his cane in his eye socket. 

I just don't think going with 4 guys all 300-350 lbs is exactly your prototypical 4-3 line. More like a 3-4 line with an extra fatbody. 

I stand by my prior post; I don't think a zillion DTs and then drafting a 220-lb ILB with the 20th pick in the country is a good design for any scheme. That is, unless Maccagnan & Bowles are the innovators, whose mold that the rest of the league will be mimicking in an attempt to repeat this greatness for themselves. Probably not, though.

i agree they don't have the right personnel mix for the dline.  it's kind of strange because rex was supposed to be a 3-4 guy and so is bowles.  i guess that's why he tried to use sheldon as a stand up lb at times.  as for darrin lee, i don't think he was drafted to be a prototypical lb but a guy who can cover the te's like gronk.  he's kind of a tweener between an lb and strong safety.  it remains to be seen if bowles can innovate enough to make this work.  as i recall he liked using lots of db's in arizona.  maybe if sheldon is traded they can get back to a proper 3-4.

[maury77]

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching different Jets games than everyone else. We lined up in a 4-3 A LOT this year. Williams, Richardson and Wilkerson are not edge players, no matter what alignment you play. The edge rushers we did have (mainly Mauldin and Jenkins) were either injured, learning or did not play much this year. 

[OH THE PAIN]

Westhoff should still be our special teams coach .

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, rangerous said:

i agree they don't have the right personnel mix for the dline.  it's kind of strange because rex was supposed to be a 3-4 guy and so is bowles.  i guess that's why he tried to use sheldon as a stand up lb at times.  as for darrin lee, i don't think he was drafted to be a prototypical lb but a guy who can cover the te's like gronk.  he's kind of a tweener between an lb and strong safety.  it remains to be seen if bowles can innovate enough to make this work.  as i recall he liked using lots of db's in arizona.  maybe if sheldon is traded they can get back to a proper 3-4.

He tried to use Sheldon as a stand up LB because he wanted to find any way to get his best players onto the field, even if it meant force-feeding this one into a position for which he is unsuited. Most likely, among the 3 large DEs, Sheldon was the best-suited to move around here or there, or play out of position for games at a time. Also it's not like the Jets had so many "must be on the field" OLBers anyhow.

That is on the GM. He provided his HC with three DEs and a NT that were all suitable for a 3-4 defense, an OLB that (if he was starter quality) would be suited for a 3-4 in Mauldin, an ILB in Harris who's purely a 3-4 player due to his lack of speed, and capped that off with a shrimpy ILB who's clearly better-suited to having a 4-man line in front of him to best utilize his sideline-to-sideline speed. Then the Jenkins pick seems fine for either one, but they're clearly grooming him as a stand up OLB rather than an end (or at least so far). It is a mishmash. 

Lee was not only a bad pick because of his position, but he was a bad pick because he doesn't fit the other already-here players the team was pretty locked into. Jenkins made sense, Lee did not.

Keeping all three DEs for 2 whole seasons was just another example of his foolishness. It's like he's a hoarder that can't let anything go, even when he likely knows he should.

[T0mShane]

10 hours ago, CrazyCarl40 said:

It just shows how far off the same page Macc and Bowles are. The personnel don't fit the scheme. Also, there is no one more overrated by these boards than Westhoff. Sweet Jesus. 

Westhoff is an old crank that believes he invented football.

[Matt39]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Westhoff is an old crank that believes he invented football.

The special teams have also stunk since he left.

[CrazyCarl40]

9 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

The special teams have also stunk since he left.

His last year they were ranked by football outsiders as 21st. The first year without him they were 16th. They were real bad this year but so was the entire team with massive injuries and zero depth. 

[Integrity28]

58 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Westhoff is an old crank that believes he invented football.

Just fill in the blank where you had "old crank" with any of the following terms:

• drunken moron
• fat moron
• arrogant moron
• stupid moron
• angry moron
• psychotic moron
• effeminate moron
• moron

and you've got a "build-your-own Jets fan" generator.

[Integrity28]

8 hours ago, jetscrazey said:

Agree, it's too bad Westhoff never got a shot as an NFL head coach.  Would have liked to have seen what he can do.

The whole "hire special teams coaches as HC because they have to know the whole roster more than the OC/DC" trend hadn't really set in yet, otherwise I'd bet he'd have been given a shot with some team across the league. Not ours. He was too competent and too likely to tell Woody to **** off.

[Ex-Rex]

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So we were a 4-3 team, yet we had with zero starting DEs truly suited for a 4-3, except maybe 3rd round rookie Jenkins. Also he had a MLB in Harris (whose contract was fully guaranteed these past 2 seasons at top 5 ILB money) that had no ability to cover enough ground from sideline to sideline, and was still arguably the team's best LB. If Jenkins was moved to RDE, ready or not, and one of our DT bodies stayed at left end, then maybe. But then we'd have an even bigger logjam at inside tackle positions, where we'd still have at least 3 starters for only 2 positions (not to mention gobs of open field behind the line). 

I like Westhoff a lot, and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do, but the reality IMO is we are neither. Our front 7 - no matter how talented any individuals in it might be - is so mishmashed they are cohesively/collectively suited for neither. 

That falls squarely on Rex/Tanny and Rex Iggy. They seemingly drafted a bunch of defensive tackles and expected them to evolve into DE's. Leonard Williams seems more effective inside on the center where he can get a push inside. But the same can be said of Richardson also. Mo is a DE, but not a classic one in that he relies on power more than pure speed. Jets need to take a page from the Giants book and draft 6'6" 260 pound guys with long arms that play with leverage. That is your classic DE. Chandler Jones was on the board when the Jets drafted Coples who was built like Mo - a DT prospect. As far a LB goes I think Lee and Jenkins are far better suited to 4-3 than 3-4. Lee playing ILB is insane, guards and tackles swallow him up.

[56mehl56]

11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So we were a 4-3 team, yet we had with zero starting DEs truly suited for a 4-3, except maybe 3rd round rookie Jenkins. Also he had a MLB in Harris (whose contract was fully guaranteed these past 2 seasons at top 5 ILB money) that had no ability to cover enough ground from sideline to sideline, and was still arguably the team's best LB. If Jenkins was moved to RDE, ready or not, and one of our DT bodies stayed at left end, then maybe. But then we'd have an even bigger logjam at inside tackle positions, where we'd still have at least 3 starters for only 2 positions (not to mention gobs of open field behind the line). 

I like Westhoff a lot, and he knows a hell of a lot more than I do, but the reality IMO is we are neither. Our front 7 - no matter how talented any individuals in it might be - is so mishmashed they are cohesively/collectively suited for neither. 

I agree, the problem with the Dline is they have too many players who are inside or DT types of players. Forcing them outside in a 4-3 may make things worse, plus  our LB's haven't shown a great ability to cover gaps and receivers. I really think we should dump/trade Richardson and go after a true DE type player either via FA or through the draft.

[smaxor5]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He tried to use Sheldon as a stand up LB because he wanted to find any way to get his best players onto the field, even if it meant force-feeding this one into a position for which he is unsuited. Most likely, among the 3 large DEs, Sheldon was the best-suited to move around here or there, or play out of position for games at a time. Also it's not like the Jets had so many "must be on the field" OLBers anyhow.

That is on the GM. He provided his HC with three DEs and a NT suitable for a 3-4 defense, an OLB that (if he was starter quality) would be suited for a 3-4 in Mauldin, and capped that off with a shrimps ILB who's clearly better-suited to having a 4-man line in front of him to best utilize his sideline-to-sideline speed. Then the Jenkins pick seems fine for either one, but they're clearly grooming him as a stand up OLB rather than an end (or at least so far). It is a mishmash. 

Lee was not only a bad pick because of his position, but he was a bad pick because he doesn't fit the other already-here players the team was pretty locked into. Jenkins made sense, Lee did not.

Keeping all three DEs for 2 whole seasons was just another example of his foolishness. It's like he's a hoarder that can't let anything go, even when he likely knows he should.

You don't draft players to fit your old veterans, you draft players to be future cornerstones.  Also, this "pretty locked into" narrative is a load of crap.  Who can we "not really move on from" on that defense outside of Wilkerson?  We can cut Harris, Revis, Gilchrist and trade Sheldon in a rebuidling year and probably will.  Literally NEXT YEAR we won't have this "mismash" or whatever you call it...we'll have a bunch of young players competing for starting positions that were drafted by a GM who has been here a few years.  

This is the thing with us Jets fans...we don't understand how LONG it takes to fully transition a 52 man roster over to what a new regime wants.  You can't expect that to happen in 2 years. With regards to Harris (whom Macc obviously resigned), we didn't have a player who was ready to take on that much responsibility, I get why they resigned him (to not piss off the fans with even MORE blown assignments).  I probably wouldn't have.  Hopefully Lee can take the next step so we can move on from him.

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, OH THE PAIN said:

Westhoff should still be our special teams coach .

Could be lack of talent, but to be honest his last few years here as ST coach were not very good.

[#27TheDominator]

The specials sucked for at least a few years before Westhoff retired.

The idea of hiring him as a head coach is kind of funny.  That would have been the equivalent of the Ravens hiring Rex as head coach.  Westhoff is a loudmouth blowhard that would probably have been a mess with the press.  That is coming from a guy that really likes Westhoff and Rex.

@Ex-Rex is this schtick?  You want to blame Rex for this?  And Tannenbaum?  That damn Tannenbaum drafted one high level DT to play 3-4 DE! How dare he leave the team with such uneven resources!  Idzik drafted another - so there were two guys to play DE.  Maccagnan is the guy that drafted Williams, the third 1st rounder, to play a position that only has 2 guys on the field at a time.  Your argument is beyond ridiculous, but I guess it goes with the name.  

[Sperm Edwards]

13 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

That falls squarely on Rex/Tanny and Rex Iggy. They seemingly drafted a bunch of defensive tackles and expected them to evolve into DE's. Leonard Williams seems more effective inside on the center where he can get a push inside. But the same can be said of Richardson also. Mo is a DE, but not a classic one in that he relies on power more than pure speed. Jets need to take a page from the Giants book and draft 6'6" 260 pound guys with long arms that play with leverage. That is your classic DE. Chandler Jones was on the board when the Jets drafted Coples who was built like Mo - a DT prospect. As far a LB goes I think Lee and Jenkins are far better suited to 4-3 than 3-4. Lee playing ILB is insane, guards and tackles swallow him up.

Mo is 315 lbs. He is a DE only in a 3-4 front (other than a random swithing things up). That's why when there was a need to pull one of them off the line to play LB (even ILB, God help us), it was Richardson since he was the most versatile. The one most suited to be a 4-3 end by body type, when Maccagnan got here, was Coples.

The "fault" of those regimes was in drafting some poor players outright. Blame is not a thing that needs to be assigned for drafting talented players that fit a 3-4 as intended. Look at it this way:

When he inherited the team, Maccagnan had Mo (whom he was trying to trade, in his own half-assed way), Sheldon, Snacks, and yes Coples (whose 5th year option he signed up for). BTW Coples - 6'6" tall himself - was built nothing like Richardson (who was 3 full inches shorter, and was then a good 15-20 lbs heavier than Coples) so I don't know what you're talking about there. Further, Coples lost even more weight from his combine weigh-in so he'd be more suited for stand-up OLB. He would have been perfectly fine as a 4-3 DE body-wise; his problem was he just wasn't a top-notch football player.

So knowing all that, Maccagnan's first acts for the front 7 were: tag rather than extend Snacks, extend David Harris, exercise the $7m team option for Coples for 2016, and then draft yet another DT. THEN he decides to still keep all of them to enter 2015, still keep both Mo and Sheldon for 2 straight offseasons, and then finds another 3-4 NT in McLendon after losing Snacks, then drafts a 220-lb ILB completely ill-suited for the rest of his obvious 3-4 personnel. 

The guys who were here before Maccagnan earned getting fired. I can blame them for plenty, but not for drafting 3-4 personnel when it was a 3-4 defense they intended to build in the first place. If Maccagnan wanted to build a 4-3 front 7 he has a lot of explaining to do.

[Sperm Edwards]

8 hours ago, smaxor5 said:

You don't draft players to fit your old veterans, you draft players to be future cornerstones.  Also, this "pretty locked into" narrative is a load of crap.  Who can we "not really move on from" on that defense outside of Wilkerson?  We can cut Harris, Revis, Gilchrist and trade Sheldon in a rebuidling year and probably will.  Literally NEXT YEAR we won't have this "mismash" or whatever you call it...we'll have a bunch of young players competing for starting positions that were drafted by a GM who has been here a few years.  

This is the thing with us Jets fans...we don't understand how LONG it takes to fully transition a 52 man roster over to what a new regime wants.  You can't expect that to happen in 2 years. With regards to Harris (whom Macc obviously resigned), we didn't have a player who was ready to take on that much responsibility, I get why they resigned him (to not piss off the fans with even MORE blown assignments).  I probably wouldn't have.  Hopefully Lee can take the next step so we can move on from him.

Uh, Mo was not an old veteran. Sheldon was not an old veteran. Williams was not an old veteran. They were locked into at least 2 of them to be the team's DEs (unless he is somehow planning on trading Williams away). 

Next year we will still have Mo and Williams and McLendon on the DL. They are not "competing" for starting positions. Show me a 4-3 defense for the Jets. Name the front 7.

Fans understand plenty how long it takes, because we've watched how long it takes for years. Maccagnan is a career scout, not some seasoned GM who's been managing rosters and coaches for the last 2 decades. Also if it's a "52-man transition" he wants then why was he extending an obvious 3-4 end in Wilkerson? What end does that serve? How does re-signing Harris in any way help transition the team to a 4-3 front?

It's comforting to say he has a plan when what he's showing makes no logical sense. Sometimes things are what they look like: he is - or painting him in the best light for 2017+, he was - in over his head.

[Integrity28]

20 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

The specials sucked for at least a few years before Westhoff retired.

The idea of hiring him as a head coach is kind of funny.  That would have been the equivalent of the Ravens hiring Rex as head coach.  Westhoff is a loudmouth blowhard that would probably have been a mess with the press.  That is coming from a guy that really likes Westhoff and Rex.

@Ex-Rex is this schtick?  You want to blame Rex for this?  And Tannenbaum?  That damn Tannenbaum drafted one high level DT to play 3-4 DE! How dare he leave the team with such uneven resources!  Idzik drafted another - so there were two guys to play DE.  Maccagnan is the guy that drafted Williams, the third 1st rounder, to play a position that only has 2 guys on the field at a time.  Your argument is beyond ridiculous, but I guess it goes with the name.  

This is correct, mostly because we didn't have enough talent on the roster to field a starting lineup ... let alone having good players used for special teams.

This is all a ripple effect of averaging about 1 - 1.5 players per draft who contribute (only somewhat) for the better part of a decade.

 

[JetFanWithNOPSL2017]

The specials sucked for at least a few years before Westhoff retired.
The idea of hiring him as a head coach is kind of funny.  That would have been the equivalent of the Ravens hiring Rex as head coach.  Westhoff is a loudmouth blowhard that would probably have been a mess with the press.  That is coming from a guy that really likes Westhoff and Rex.
@Ex-Rex is this schtick?  You want to blame Rex for this?  And Tannenbaum?  That damn Tannenbaum drafted one high level DT to play 3-4 DE! How dare he leave the team with such uneven resources!  Idzik drafted another - so there were two guys to play DE.  Maccagnan is the guy that drafted Williams, the third 1st rounder, to play a position that only has 2 guys on the field at a time.  Your argument is beyond ridiculous, but I guess it goes with the name.  

So now Leonard Williams, arguably the best player drafted by anyone in the last 6 drafts or more is a mistake?

And Ex Rex is the one with the "ridiculous argument"??

[#27TheDominator]

16 minutes ago, JetFanWithNOPSL2017 said:

 

 

So now Leonard Williams, arguably the best player drafted by anyone in the last 6 drafts or more is a mistake?

And Ex Rex is the one with the "ridiculous argument"??

 

 

Yes, his argument is ridiculous.  I didn't say drafting Williams was a mistake. I said that you can't blame Tannenbaum for picks (two) made after he was gone from the team.  Or Idzik.  I don't think the mistake is in drafting Williams.  The mistake is in keeping Richardson, Wilkerson and Williams - and paying the three of them a ton of money when only two should be on the field at any given time.  It is a poor allocation of resources and it certainly can't be hung on Rex, no matter how hard you try.  

FWIW, ex-rex did relate it to Coples who some saw as being suited to being a 4-3 DT/UT.  Coples has been a bust any way you look at him and you can blame Rex/Tannenbaum for that, but 4-3 teams have had him (Rams) and had him in (Panthers, Lions) and he did not stick even as cheap depth.  He is a bad pick, but that doesn't equate to being a bad scheme fit.  He was just bad and in fact, he had much more success in the 3-4 with the Jets and Dolphins than in the 4-3 where he never even made it to final cuts.

[j4jets]

Its funny how we think Westhoff would've been some genius of a HC, yet not one NFL team thought that highly of him. He was an excellent STC though. 

[Mecca]

40 minutes ago, j4jets said:

Its funny how we think Westhoff would've been some genius of a HC, yet not one NFL team thought that highly of him. He was an excellent STC though. 

this is because it is extremely rare for a ST coach to be a HC, not because we're the only people that believe he should've been. Organizations make the same mistake in hiring a hot coordinator, instead of hiring the right leader of men and game manager 

[Charlie Brown]

2 minutes ago, Mecca said:

this is because it is extremely rare for a ST coach to be a HC, not because we're the only people that believe he should've been. Organizations make the same mistake in hiring a hot coordinator, instead of hiring the right leader of men and game manager 

I wanted West prior to the Rex hire. 

But that's in the past now.  West's cancer scares I think also clouded how teams thought about him. 

[JetFanWithNOPSL2017]

Yes, his argument is ridiculous.  I didn't say drafting Williams was a mistake. I said that you can't blame Tannenbaum for picks (two) made after he was gone from the team.  Or Idzik.  I don't think the mistake is in drafting Williams.  The mistake is in keeping Richardson, Wilkerson and Williams - and paying the three of them a ton of money when only two should be on the field at any given time.  It is a poor allocation of resources and it certainly can't be hung on Rex, no matter how hard you try.  
FWIW, ex-rex did relate it to Coples who some saw as being suited to being a 4-3 DT/UT.  Coples has been a bust any way you look at him and you can blame Rex/Tannenbaum for that, but 4-3 teams have had him (Rams) and had him in (Panthers, Lions) and he did not stick even as cheap depth.  He is a bad pick, but that doesn't equate to being a bad scheme fit.  He was just bad and in fact, he had much more success in the 3-4 with the Jets and Dolphins than in the 4-3 where he never even made it to final cuts.

We will just agree to disagree as to whom was ridiculous

[bostonmajet]

I like Westy, but I don't know how much he knows about defenses. I don't think Mo is a 4-3 NT. In a 3-4 you need to be able to find an OLB; in a 4-3 you need to be able to find a NT. We don't have either.

As far as Sheldon; drafting Leo and signing Mo meant Sheldon was gone, IMO. Next year with McLendon back and healthy we should be okay. That line looked unstoppable during the first game when Sheldon was suspended. Mo was fresh (apparently he didn't have the durability/stamina) and McLendon was healthy (Simon and Thomas, before getting hurt, started to look pretty good)

I think his comments on offense are spot on. I think his comments about coaching are spot on. Not sure I agree we have the bodies for 4-3.

Last year he didn't think we should have fired the ST coach, and he didn't last long on the next team he went to. Westy's last 2 years on the team (with ST declining) showed the flaws in the roster. ST is filled with young, fast, strong depth players. The Jets didn't have any. So it is understandable while the ST struggled, but not sure how good of HC he would have been.

Easy to sit back on SNY and hindsight this, and knock that, but it is harder to deal with in real life. In fact, that show, IMO, has gotten unwatchable. Ray is always running his mouth and talking over the other guys; he pushed hard all last year to sign Mo as he deserved it, but hasn't said squat about him now. And, what did Ray ever do? Yet, he is always saying that the QBs sucked. Glad he turned his life around, but he is a big mouthed know-it-all.

[TJ]

2 hours ago, Mecca said:

this is because it is extremely rare for a ST coach to be a HC, not because we're the only people that believe he should've been. Organizations make the same mistake in hiring a hot coordinator, instead of hiring the right leader of men and game manager 

I believe Parcells and Harbough coached special teams.