Brian Winters Contract Details

[CanadaSteve]

10 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

While I won't respond in kind, it's kind of [well, choose your own adjective] to reduce others' legitimate and enumerated criticisms to baseless, blind personal hatred. Like anyone here knows the guy or gives a crap about him personally in any regard.

Dude, you REALLY need to let this go....I don't hate you.  I don't hate any Jets fan on this site.

I am just personally tired of the non-stop criticisms of Mac.  Some is warranted, some is ridiculously unwarranted.  We get it.  Some people think he has done nothing right since he got here.  I just think its amazing how a guy is praised one year (and named executive of the year) and then calls for his head the next year.

But, whatever......We obviously disagree.  As stated, there are not moves that are not questionable.  I just don't think he is as bad as many make him out to be, especially when his first draft hasn't even reached its third year.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

17 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Dude, you REALLY need to let this go....I don't hate you.  I don't hate any Jets fan on this site.

I am just personally tired of the non-stop criticisms of Mac.  Some is warranted, some is ridiculously unwarranted.  We get it.  Some people think he has done nothing right since he got here.  I just think its amazing how a guy is praised one year (and named executive of the year) and then calls for his head the next year.

But, whatever......We obviously disagree.  As stated, there are not moves that are not questionable.  I just don't think he is as bad as many make him out to be, especially when his first draft hasn't even reached its third year.

 

Your post indicated that any criticism thrown his way (1) is unwarranted (2) is rooted in irrational, personal "hate" for the man, rather than critiquing his individual actions/inactions taken as has been done.

Regardless, you are not the sole arbiter of what is "warranted" and "unwarranted" criticism. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours. 

I never insinuated you personally hated anyone here so I'm confused by that reply. I always presumed this was just online Jets players/coaches/etc discussion; nothing personal. I just object to the categorical, blanket dismissal of opinions that differ from yours as being essentially baseless despite everyone listing the actions themselves that sucked.

[Integrity28]

On 1/20/2017 at 10:49 AM, chirorob said:

Basically, it's a 2 year deal with 2 team options at about 7 million per.

This.

[CanadaSteve]

On 2017-01-22 at 7:45 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

Your post indicated that any criticism thrown his way (1) is unwarranted (2) is rooted in irrational, personal "hate" for the man, rather than critiquing his individual actions/inactions taken as has been done.

Regardless, you are not the sole arbiter of what is "warranted" and "unwarranted" criticism. People are allowed to have opinions that differ from yours. 

I never insinuated you personally hated anyone here so I'm confused by that reply. I always presumed this was just online Jets players/coaches/etc discussion; nothing personal. I just object to the categorical, blanket dismissal of opinions that differ from yours as being essentially baseless despite everyone listing the actions themselves that sucked.

That is NOT what I have said, nor have I ever said.  Nor do I give a sh*t that people have different opinions. They should.  We don't see things all the same.

What I HAVE said is the constant bashing of Mac is getting old.  Everyone knows on this sight there are actions that you personally dislike of Mac.  But it does not seem that you give the man any credit.  That's the only beef I have.  I guess what it boils down to is that I enjoy watching the Jets, want to see them win, and find it aggravating that everything seems negative toward this guy when he goes 4-12, but everyone praised him his first year.  It just seems obvious that people only want guys fired when the team does poorly.  Sometimes you have to go through bad seasons.  If we go 4-12 again next season with a poor draft and mismanaged cap, well, could be different.  But as you know, I don't think two years is enough time to judge the work as a whole.  But, we seem to differ on that opinion.  I am sure there are things we must agree on though....Would be nice to get to them.

And the hate thing was directed at your blind hatred comment. 

[Sperm Edwards]

11 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

That is NOT what I have said, nor have I ever said.  Nor do I give a sh*t that people have different opinions. They should.  We don't see things all the same.

What I HAVE said is the constant bashing of Mac is getting old.  Everyone knows on this sight there are actions that you personally dislike of Mac.  But it does not seem that you give the man any credit.  That's the only beef I have.  I guess what it boils down to is that I enjoy watching the Jets, want to see them win, and find it aggravating that everything seems negative toward this guy when he goes 4-12, but everyone praised him his first year.  It just seems obvious that people only want guys fired when the team does poorly.  Sometimes you have to go through bad seasons.  If we go 4-12 again next season with a poor draft and mismanaged cap, well, could be different.  But as you know, I don't think two years is enough time to judge the work as a whole.  But, we seem to differ on that opinion.  I am sure there are things we must agree on though....Would be nice to get to them.

And the hate thing was directed at your blind hatred comment. 

Indeed. This post of yours was from out of nowhere, and I believe you even said it wasn't directed at me:

On 1/20/2017 at 3:39 PM, CanadaSteve said:

We all get it....people hate Mac, he should be fired, we should hire a new GM....wash and repeat in 2-4 years.

So I have to kinda call BS here. You are absolutely making reasoned critiques equivalent to irrational/blind hatred for the man. People don't just disagree with moves he's made (or failed to make) to you; his critics just "hate Mac" without many good reasons.

Also despite what seems to be your short memory to the contrary, there were plenty of people who weren't fans of a bunch of his moves his first year, and they got drowned out after a series of lucky events & circumstances made them seem smarter than they actually were. There were so many opportunities lost, and instead of paying forward better investments in players with serious shots at a sustainable future here, he went in for big money on dead-end players with a 1-2 yr shelf life (if even that) before the acquisition fully proved how unwise their acquisitions were from the start.

There's plenty more, but you won't listen. All you see is those who disagree with you do so out of some blanket, baseless hatred for the man. Never mind how little sense that makes, you seem to believe it nonetheless. 

[Tinstar]

A dog and his bone .

[varjet]

The Jets will only be able to dedicate a limited amount of cap space to their line.  My guess is that next year is still relatively high.  They are currently paying decent amounts to their 2 guards, which is not the way it is supposed to work.

Basically, the Winters contract is a bit of a bridge for stability, because eventually the RT and LT will need to get paid.  The fact that neither Dozier or Harrison could stop in and play RG, conceivably the easiest position on the line to play, is a disappointment from a cap perspective

But if Shell works out and Johnson, Qvale and/or Ijalana sign for a fair amount, this should work out ok for the Jets.  They need to add draft picks to this mix.  If I am Macc, I am replacing Breno and Dozier with draft picks with potential, resigning Qvale and Ijalana, reducing Mangold's salary substantially and even potentially bringing back Clady for another prove it deal.

So Ijalana and Clady can cover LT, Carpenter LG, Johnson and Mangold, C, Winters RG, and Qvale and Shell RG, plus the draft picks.  its a start.

[whodeawhodat]

On 1/20/2017 at 8:43 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

Lol. That makes no difference whatsoever. It's neither a good thing nor a bad thing either way. Flip a coin and pick one. 

it makes total sense from a cash flow perspective.  $10M today is worth a lot more than $10M a year from today.  So as a player, get it up front, plus it is harder for the team to recoup due to unforseen circumstances.

[Sperm Edwards]

4 minutes ago, whodeawhodat said:

it makes total sense from a cash flow perspective.  $10M today is worth a lot more than $10M a year from today.  So as a player, get it up front, plus it is harder for the team to recoup due to unforseen circumstances.

Cash flow? Come on. No owner has had cash flow problems since what's-his-name was building a stadium in Denver in the late 90s. The Jets have no known cash flow problems.

Next, the post I was responding to insinuated that the difference between paying out money as a roster bonus vs weekly salary has a difference in how it affects the salary cap; that a roster bonus was better than salary in this regard. That is why I lol'd at his post.

 

[#27TheDominator]

Not sure why people are ragging on Tanny.  Maccagnan overpaid almost all the same guys.  Literally.  Maybe you replace Sanchez and Holmes with Fitzpatrick and Skrine.  Revis, Harris, Cromartie.  All those guys got big deals from both.  Revis is still questionable to cut today because of the dead money.  D'Brick and Mangold were highly paid, but the team sure seemed better with them playing. 

[CanadaSteve]

12 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Indeed. This post of yours was from out of nowhere, and I believe you even said it wasn't directed at me:

So I have to kinda call BS here. You are absolutely making reasoned critiques equivalent to irrational/blind hatred for the man. People don't just disagree with moves he's made (or failed to make) to you; his critics just "hate Mac" without many good reasons.

Also despite what seems to be your short memory to the contrary, there were plenty of people who weren't fans of a bunch of his moves his first year, and they got drowned out after a series of lucky events & circumstances made them seem smarter than they actually were. There were so many opportunities lost, and instead of paying forward better investments in players with serious shots at a sustainable future here, he went in for big money on dead-end players with a 1-2 yr shelf life (if even that) before the acquisition fully proved how unwise their acquisitions were from the start.

There's plenty more, but you won't listen. All you see is those who disagree with you do so out of some blanket, baseless hatred for the man. Never mind how little sense that makes, you seem to believe it nonetheless. 

I do listen Sperm....I also watch.  But it seems that there are some posters who want the man fired and will not listen about anything good.  I am not specifically saying you, although I have disagreed with you about some specifics.

I like how he has drafted, except in the 2nd round.  I won't criticize signings like Revis; He had to make the team at least competitive, and we were all pretty excited to see him back.  Its one more year before the contract is cuttable.  NOBODY saw the decline of Revis coming to this degree.

I don't like his track record with QB's, which is a HUGE concern for this franchise.  I want to see how his guys are in year three, and then judge his first draft.  I want to see progress from his 2nd draft.  But I think he needs to come away with 2 starters and 2 depth players in this draft.  He has some great picks, and he has to parlay them into players.  I think he also needs to parlay them into having a 4th round pick.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

9 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

I do listen Sperm....I also watch.  But it seems that there are some posters who want the man fired and will not listen about anything good.  I am not specifically saying you, although I have disagreed with you about some specifics.

I like how he has drafted, except in the 2nd round.  I won't criticize signings like Revis; He had to make the team at least competitive, and we were all pretty excited to see him back.  Its one more year before the contract is cuttable.  NOBODY saw the decline of Revis coming to this degree.

I don't like his track record with QB's, which is a HUGE concern for this franchise.  I want to see how his guys are in year three, and then judge his first draft.  I want to see progress from his 2nd draft.  But I think he needs to come away with 2 starters and 2 depth players in this draft.  He has some great picks, and he has to parlay them into players.  I think he also needs to parlay them into having a 4th round pick.

 

"There are some posters who want the man fired"

I don't see anyone seriously calling for him to be fired right now (though he's borderline earned it already IMO, and I do see such comments, but that's not the same thing). The problem is Idzik was fired after only 2 years, so it makes the prospect of firing Macc after 2 years look that much worse (or anyway, it could) in attracting an upgrade for a replacement, rather than a mostly-lateral one. However, after 3 years - which ultimately is then 1 year with Chris-not-Woody Johnson (theoretically) running the team - it could be done. The catch, which shouldn't be much of a catch, is that the next GM should be reporting to a VP of football operations, and superior to his HC. Maccagnan has not earned such additional power by his own actions, but if that power is not granted then we're not going to get a good one anyway.

"I won't criticize signings like Revis": 

Your prerogative, but bad moves are worthy of criticism (unless an unpredictable, freak injury was the cause of the letdown). Though not super-old, Revis was an older player, with injury history in the past, and was obviously past his true prime (was at the very tail end of it at best), yet was still given 3 years at $16m per or 2 yrs at $20m per -- money that's worth it nowadays - to a contender - for a true shutdown corner in his prime, who's expected to continue to be such for the duration of the guaranteed portion, but Revis & the Jets didn't meet those qualifications. While I totally agree it was not predictable that he'd have such a sharp decline from y1 to y2, it's also true that sharp declines are not unheard of for skill position players on the wrong side of 30. It's precisely why teams - smart teams - who aren't presently SB contenders, are leery of investing so heavily in older skill position players. Since he was not the shutdown Revis of old, even on the Patriots, it was not hard to predict that: he'd be hopefully-worth 75% the new amount for 1 year (a year in which we had no starting QB at the time of signing), and that his value would only decrease from there. That is why it was a bad contract, no matter how "exciting" the signing may have been at the time.

Other judging:

The most important acquisitions a GM can make, particularly for a rebuilding team without them, are long-term solutions at QB, OPR, CB1. While I think the position is overvalued, I often throw LT into that mix, due to the positional cost of LTs in free agency and the overdrafting of them as rookies, though in practice a merely-solid line across the board is needed more than 1 elite LT. The most difficult/expensive one to find, generally, is LT so that's why I often include the position. Next after that I'd still put in the secondary in the form of a reliable CB2 (since teams can gameplan around just 1, offenses did to us despite having a then-awesome Revis).

How has he done on acquiring these individuals through 2 offseasons? QB, OPR, CB1, CB2, LT. The only realistic potential in that whole group is that hopefully Burris will be a CB2 starter (I don't know that he has the speed to ever be a CB1), but the best play he showed as a rookie was counterbalanced by getting badly beaten, including on his lone interception I might add. Next-best hopeful for that group is the low-percentage chance of 2nd round pick Hackenberg developing into a good starter (but first he'd have to develop into a 3rd stringer and then a reliable 2nd stringer after that, of course). All that money and all those draft picks, and he hasn't clearly secured sure starters at any of those 5 positions as we enter his 3rd season as GM. That is among the reasons why I give him so much flack. 

"He has made some great picks..."

He does not have "some great picks" except looking through the lens of someone who sees what he wants to see. The only great player is Williams and it was a safe pick more than a great pick; and good as he is, Leo is not necessarily the better pick of the 2 he could have reasonably made. That Macc countered that with 2 years (and counting) of moronically carrying a trio of 300-lb DE/DT types (and re-signed overpriced 31 year old sloth David Harris), for a HC who wanted speed-speed-speed on his defense during Leo's 2 cheapest NFL seasons, means his management/grade of such was a failure on balance, even if the pick himself is an excellent player. 

Who else was a "great pick" of his? As much as I like him so far - and I really do - Anderson is only a great pick if you also deem Lee/others to be tragic picks. You can't credibly say detractors need to wait 3 years for potential before judging some, out of one side of your mouth, but then out of the other side, say a good looking half-season of another needs no further evaluation to already deem him a great pick. I think Anderson was a terrific pickup by Macc, but thus far he is not a superior UDFA than was Snacks, whom he incidentally failed to extend in 2015 while he was busy pissing away tens of millions on older players with predictably short futures ahead of them. As we sit here today, the rest are far more in the "hopeful" category than the "great picks" category (Lee, Jenkins, Burris, Peake). In round 7, Trevor Reilly was also considered a great pick at the time, as was Dakota Dozier IIRC. They're "great picks" only after they become reliable - or "great" - starters. 

[CanadaSteve]

8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

"There are some posters who want the man fired"

I don't see anyone seriously calling for him to be fired right now (though he's borderline earned it already IMO, and I do see such comments, but that's not the same thing). The problem is Idzik was fired after only 2 years, so it makes the prospect of firing Macc after 2 years look that much worse (or anyway, it could) in attracting an upgrade for a replacement, rather than a mostly-lateral one. However, after 3 years - which ultimately is then 1 year with Chris-not-Woody Johnson (theoretically) running the team - it could be done. The catch, which shouldn't be much of a catch, is that the next GM should be reporting to a VP of football operations, and superior to his HC. Maccagnan has not earned such additional power by his own actions, but if that power is not granted then we're not going to get a good one anyway.

"I won't criticize signings like Revis": 

Your prerogative, but bad moves are worthy of criticism (unless an unpredictable, freak injury was the cause of the letdown). Though not super-old, Revis was an older player, with injury history in the past, and was obviously past his true prime (was at the very tail end of it at best), yet was still given 3 years at $16m per or 2 yrs at $20m per -- money that's worth it nowadays - to a contender - for a true shutdown corner in his prime, who's expected to continue to be such for the duration of the guaranteed portion, but Revis & the Jets didn't meet those qualifications. While I totally agree it was not predictable that he'd have such a sharp decline from y1 to y2, it's also true that sharp declines are not unheard of for skill position players on the wrong side of 30. It's precisely why teams - smart teams - who aren't presently SB contenders, are leery of investing so heavily in older skill position players. Since he was not the shutdown Revis of old, even on the Patriots, it was not hard to predict that: he'd be hopefully-worth 75% the new amount for 1 year (a year in which we had no starting QB at the time of signing), and that his value would only decrease from there. That is why it was a bad contract, no matter how "exciting" the signing may have been at the time.

Other judging:

The most important acquisitions a GM can make, particularly for a rebuilding team without them, are long-term solutions at QB, OPR, CB1. While I think the position is overvalued, I often throw LT into that mix, due to the positional cost of LTs in free agency and the overdrafting of them as rookies, though in practice a merely-solid line across the board is needed more than 1 elite LT. The most difficult/expensive one to find, generally, is LT so that's why I often include the position. Next after that I'd still put in the secondary in the form of a reliable CB2 (since teams can gameplan around just 1, offenses did to us despite having a then-awesome Revis).

How has he done on acquiring these individuals through 2 offseasons? QB, OPR, CB1, CB2, LT. The only realistic potential in that whole group is that hopefully Burris will be a CB2 starter (I don't know that he has the speed to ever be a CB1), but the best play he showed as a rookie was counterbalanced by getting badly beaten, including on his lone interception I might add. Next-best hopeful for that group is the low-percentage chance of 2nd round pick Hackenberg developing into a good starter (but first he'd have to develop into a 3rd stringer and then a reliable 2nd stringer after that, of course). All that money and all those draft picks, and he hasn't clearly secured sure starters at any of those 5 positions as we enter his 3rd season as GM. That is among the reasons why I give him so much flack. 

"He has made some great picks..."

He does not have "some great picks" except looking through the lens of someone who sees what he wants to see. The only great player is Williams and it was a safe pick more than a great pick; and good as he is, Leo is not necessarily the better pick of the 2 he could have reasonably made. That Macc countered that with 2 years (and counting) of moronically carrying a trio of 300-lb DE/DT types (and re-signed overpriced 31 year old sloth David Harris), for a HC who wanted speed-speed-speed on his defense during Leo's 2 cheapest NFL seasons, means his management/grade of such was a failure on balance, even if the pick himself is an excellent player. 

Who else was a "great pick" of his? As much as I like him so far - and I really do - Anderson is only a great pick if you also deem Lee/others to be tragic picks. You can't credibly say detractors need to wait 3 years for potential before judging some, out of one side of your mouth, but then out of the other side, say a good looking half-season of another needs no further evaluation to already deem him a great pick. I think Anderson was a terrific pickup by Macc, but thus far he is not a superior UDFA than was Snacks, whom he incidentally failed to extend in 2015 while he was busy pissing away tens of millions on older players with predictably short futures ahead of them. As we sit here today, the rest are far more in the "hopeful" category than the "great picks" category (Lee, Jenkins, Burris, Peake). In round 7, Trevor Reilly was also considered a great pick at the time, as was Dakota Dozier IIRC. They're "great picks" only after they become reliable - or "great" - starters. 

So I love how I am the one who does the judging and does the "looking through a lens who sees what he wants to see," but you are exempt from that same criteria because apparently it is your viewpoint that is correct. 

It doesn't sound like you want to openly discuss things.  You have your opinion, which is apparently the right one, while mine is wrong.  So be it.

[Sperm Edwards]

2 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

So I love how I am the one who does the judging and does the "looking through a lens who sees what he wants to see," but you are exempt from that same criteria because apparently it is your viewpoint that is correct. 

It doesn't sound like you want to openly discuss things.  You have your opinion, which is apparently the right one, while mine is wrong.  So be it.

You can't handle this much Sperm. Admit it. 

[jeremy2020]

So somehow the line which was people on this board were saying was the reason petty looked terrible and why they won't play hackenberg...is now super awesome because winters got paid...ok then.

[Patriot Killa]

9 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

So somehow the line which was people on this board were saying was the reason petty looked terrible and why they won't play hackenberg...is now super awesome because winters got paid...ok then.

Winters wasn't the issue. He was, however place on IR along with our starting center and left tackle. Shell was feeling the RT position out. Multiply that with the fact his #1 WR wasn't trying anymore so he wasn't getting open on the regular leaving Petty to look else where 95% of the time resulting in wasted time in the pocket.  I'm not putting all of the blame on Marshall but it's basically playing with 2 WR sets all game against more DB's. It delt a disadvantage. Players giving up all across the field..it was sickening how they left the kid out to dry and I still came away impressed with his individual performance. The story is NOT in the numbers but in the film. 

[CanadaSteve]

On 2017-01-25 at 9:08 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

You can't handle this much Sperm. Admit it. 

Nope I can't....so I am moving on without you.  We have to go our separate ways.

It's what is best for the kids.

Wait....what?