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The Jets and the QB Position


Smashmouth

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I'm really sick of this bullsh*t when it comes to so called "system QB's" A QB is either going to have what it takes or he's not. Its ALL about whats in his head because most of these guys have the physical skill sets to play the pro game. There has never been a position evaluated worse in all of sports than the QB position and that's simply because its easily the hardest position to play in all of sports and nothing even comes remotely close. So you either get lucky or you don't. We have not been lucky.

They make it sound like these guys could not possibly play from under center and IMHO that's bullsh*t. Most guys at this level have been playing or dreaming about the position of QB for most of their lives its not like they have never seen the game played before. They all watch the pro game and even those in a pro style offense in college still have the same issues as to whether they can handle the pressure of the pro game mentally. They can all learn play books the question is can they bring that to the field on game day ? Dak Prescott did it when no one expected anything from him during the draft same with Russel Wilson both of whom adapted in their rookie years and certainly did not play in any pro style offenses.

Go out and find a guy with guts and brains and teach him the position within your offense and see if it sticks. You usually know pretty early if they are going to make it or not or you very well could be a god damn Jets fan and evaluate a QB before he even gets any game action. There are a lot of QB's in College football and very few get to even try out on a pro roster. Since the scouts have no other way to evaluate these guys ever Imagine how many college QB's that could have turned out great and were never even signed as free agents after the draft.

The biggest key IMHO is getting that QB a good solid O line and a running game its no mystery why Prescott and Wilson played so well its because they had insane Running games to rely on. So what the Jets should do this year is continue to build that O-Line and draft a franchise type RB and let Petty and Hack battle it out if the winner totally sh*ts the bed then we know what to do in next years draft because if one of those guys sh*ts the bed we will probably have the high pick we need to go after a QB. Get the talent then get the QB or do both like Dallas did its certainly better than the way we threw Sanchez and Smith to the wolves with sh*tty WR's and terrible OC's and expected them to succeed. Sanchez seemed to start off decent and even played better in year 2 then it was all down hill with drunks and malcontents as his WR's as the running game went down the drain as well.

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

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I want the jets to do what Theo did with the cubs. "hey guys we are going to suck for a while, but we have a plan"

this "winning while you rebuild" stuff is crap and leads to nothing but the hamster wheel of mediocrity

I say let the kids play, get young and hungry and hey if you go 2-14 and get the #1 pick the right year, even better

but the owner needs to be patient and the GM needs to know he can do it and the HC needs to be able to play kids with no fear

 

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20 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm really sick of this bullsh*t when it comes to so called "system QB's" A QB is either going to have what it takes or he's not. Its ALL about whats in his head because most of these guys have the physical skill sets to play the pro game. There has never been a position evaluated worse in all of sports than the QB position and that's simply because its easily the hardest position to play in all of sports and nothing even comes remotely close. So you either get lucky or you don't. We have not been lucky.

They make it sound like these guys could not possibly play from under center and IMHO that's bullsh*t. Most guys at this level have been playing or dreaming about the position of QB for most of their lives its not like they have never seen the game played before. They all watch the pro game and even those in a pro style offense in college still have the same issues as to whether they can handle the pressure of the pro game mentally. They can all learn play books the question is can they bring that to the field on game day ? Dak Prescott did it when no one expected anything from him during the draft same with Russel Wilson both of whom adapted in their rookie years and certainly did not play in any pro style offenses.

Go out and find a guy with guts and brains and teach him the position within your offense and see if it sticks. You usually know pretty early if they are going to make it or not or you very well could be a god damn Jets fan and evaluate a QB before he even gets any game action. There are a lot of QB's in College football and very few get to even try out on a pro roster. Since the scouts have no other way to evaluate these guys ever Imagine how many college QB's that could have turned out great and were never even signed as free agents after the draft.

The biggest key IMHO is getting that QB a good solid O line and a running game its no mystery why Prescott and Wilson played so well its because they had insane Running games to rely on. So what the Jets should do this year is continue to build that O-Line and draft a franchise type RB and let Petty and Hack battle it out if the winner totally sh*ts the bed then we know what to do in next years draft because if one of those guys sh*ts the bed we will probably have the high pick we need to go after a QB. Get the talent then get the QB or do both like Dallas did its certainly better than the way we threw Sanchez and Smith to the wolves with sh*tty WR's and terrible OC's and expected them to succeed. Sanchez seemed to start off decent and even played better in year 2 then it was all down hill with drunks and malcontents as his WR's as the running game went down the drain as well.

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

i agree.  the thing is the qb's at this level in college have been playing the position since they were 8.  they must have played under center at some point.  the real good qb's know how the game is played.  that's why the guy who takes the 8 yard gain instead of going for 30 is probably going to be more successful.  same thing with the guy who throws the ball away instead of taking a sack.  it's little things like those that determine if the qb is up to the task.  just about all of these guys have great arms and can throw with good accuracy. the successful ones are the guys who know how to win.

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34 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm really sick of this bullsh*t when it comes to so called "system QB's" A QB is either going to have what it takes or he's not. Its ALL about whats in his head because most of these guys have the physical skill sets to play the pro game. There has never been a position evaluated worse in all of sports than the QB position and that's simply because its easily the hardest position to play in all of sports and nothing even comes remotely close. So you either get lucky or you don't. We have not been lucky.

They make it sound like these guys could not possibly play from under center and IMHO that's bullsh*t. Most guys at this level have been playing or dreaming about the position of QB for most of their lives its not like they have never seen the game played before. They all watch the pro game and even those in a pro style offense in college still have the same issues as to whether they can handle the pressure of the pro game mentally. They can all learn play books the question is can they bring that to the field on game day ? Dak Prescott did it when no one expected anything from him during the draft same with Russel Wilson both of whom adapted in their rookie years and certainly did not play in any pro style offenses.

Go out and find a guy with guts and brains and teach him the position within your offense and see if it sticks. You usually know pretty early if they are going to make it or not or you very well could be a god damn Jets fan and evaluate a QB before he even gets any game action. There are a lot of QB's in College football and very few get to even try out on a pro roster. Since the scouts have no other way to evaluate these guys ever Imagine how many college QB's that could have turned out great and were never even signed as free agents after the draft.

The biggest key IMHO is getting that QB a good solid O line and a running game its no mystery why Prescott and Wilson played so well its because they had insane Running games to rely on. So what the Jets should do this year is continue to build that O-Line and draft a franchise type RB and let Petty and Hack battle it out if the winner totally sh*ts the bed then we know what to do in next years draft because if one of those guys sh*ts the bed we will probably have the high pick we need to go after a QB. Get the talent then get the QB or do both like Dallas did its certainly better than the way we threw Sanchez and Smith to the wolves with sh*tty WR's and terrible OC's and expected them to succeed. Sanchez seemed to start off decent and even played better in year 2 then it was all down hill with drunks and malcontents as his WR's as the running game went down the drain as well.

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

Man that's a great post and I wholeheartedly agree. This nonsense about Hackenburg who nobody has seen is ludicrous. Now I am not saying he will be great, but I am saying nobody has the first friggin clue if he will or wont. Build the OL. It is as important to a QB as his arm as he cannot throw the football with his ass drilled into the turf on every play.

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26 minutes ago, Larz said:

I want the jets to do what Theo did with the cubs. "hey guys we are going to suck for a while, but we have a plan"

this "winning while you rebuild" stuff is crap and leads to nothing but the hamster wheel of mediocrity

I say let the kids play, get young and hungry and hey if you go 2-14 and get the #1 pick the right year, even better

but the owner needs to be patient and the GM needs to know he can do it and the HC needs to be able to play kids with no fear

 

What was the best thing Theo did?  Drafting and developing players, two things the Jets have no clue how to do.

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Just now, section314 said:

What was the best thing Theo did?  Drafting and developing players, two things the Jets have no clue how to do.

I think patience and stability would help.  If the GM and HC know they can start young players and stay employed, they might actually do it

 

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1 minute ago, section314 said:

Totally agree. I just have zero confidence that Woody will ever let that happen. He is our biggest enemy. 

Leon Hess was the problem when he owned the team.  Now woody Johnson is the problem since he owned the team . In 40 years , everything about the Jets have been in constant flux except for 1 thing . That 1 thing has been passed down from 1 family member to the next and has remain the same .

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18 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

Leon Hess was the problem when he owned the team.  Now woody Johnson is the problem since he owned the team . In 40 years , everything about the Jets have been in constant flux except for 1 thing . That 1 thing has been passed down from 1 family member to the next and has remain the same .

I know it seems like that, we just have to Draft a freaking QB! The rest fixes it's self. The last and only QB we ever had is Joe Willie.

 

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33 minutes ago, section314 said:

Totally agree. I just have zero confidence that Woody will ever let that happen. He is our biggest enemy. 

yeah, as long as he is obssessed with headlines and star players, we ride the hamster wheel

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I agree with Smashmouth.  Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson are nothing special.  They would've folded if they played on the jets last year.  Shaky O-line, poor run game.  We absolutely need to rebuild the O-line, get a star running back to share time with Powell and let Petty and Hack play. 

Remember the last Pats game offsides call where the ref said "Offsides, Everyone but the Center"  and the center was a JAG for Mangold.  Horrible. And we expected our QBs to survive?  Fitz survived by throwing it away or by throwing interceptions.  He was much better at the latter.

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4 hours ago, Larz said:

I want the jets to do what Theo did with the cubs. "hey guys we are going to suck for a while, but we have a plan"

this "winning while you rebuild" stuff is crap and leads to nothing but the hamster wheel of mediocrity

I say let the kids play, get young and hungry and hey if you go 2-14 and get the #1 pick the right year, even better

but the owner needs to be patient and the GM needs to know he can do it and the HC needs to be able to play kids with no fear

 

Finally someone who gets it. This you can't rebuild in NY crap really pisses me off. You are gonna have to bite the bullet and take the heat but the rewards will be great. You have to hit rock bottom in order to rise. Shortcuts don't work in the NFL. This has been proven time and time again. Maybe this time the Jets will get it.

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15 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm really sick of this bullsh*t when it comes to so called "system QB's" A QB is either going to have what it takes or he's not. Its ALL about whats in his head because most of these guys have the physical skill sets to play the pro game. There has never been a position evaluated worse in all of sports than the QB position and that's simply because its easily the hardest position to play in all of sports and nothing even comes remotely close. So you either get lucky or you don't. We have not been lucky.

They make it sound like these guys could not possibly play from under center and IMHO that's bullsh*t. Most guys at this level have been playing or dreaming about the position of QB for most of their lives its not like they have never seen the game played before. They all watch the pro game and even those in a pro style offense in college still have the same issues as to whether they can handle the pressure of the pro game mentally. They can all learn play books the question is can they bring that to the field on game day ? Dak Prescott did it when no one expected anything from him during the draft same with Russel Wilson both of whom adapted in their rookie years and certainly did not play in any pro style offenses.

Go out and find a guy with guts and brains and teach him the position within your offense and see if it sticks. You usually know pretty early if they are going to make it or not or you very well could be a god damn Jets fan and evaluate a QB before he even gets any game action. There are a lot of QB's in College football and very few get to even try out on a pro roster. Since the scouts have no other way to evaluate these guys ever Imagine how many college QB's that could have turned out great and were never even signed as free agents after the draft.

The biggest key IMHO is getting that QB a good solid O line and a running game its no mystery why Prescott and Wilson played so well its because they had insane Running games to rely on. So what the Jets should do this year is continue to build that O-Line and draft a franchise type RB and let Petty and Hack battle it out if the winner totally sh*ts the bed then we know what to do in next years draft because if one of those guys sh*ts the bed we will probably have the high pick we need to go after a QB. Get the talent then get the QB or do both like Dallas did its certainly better than the way we threw Sanchez and Smith to the wolves with sh*tty WR's and terrible OC's and expected them to succeed. Sanchez seemed to start off decent and even played better in year 2 then it was all down hill with drunks and malcontents as his WR's as the running game went down the drain as well.

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

I couldn't agree with you more, specifically the mental aspect of the QB. That plays a huge role if a QB is successful. Most of the QB's that are successful are extremely confident and some times down right arrogant. That's the QB I want, a guy who doesn't give a sh*t what people think about him. It happens so often, guys have all the skills to succeed in the NFL but just can't handle it mentally. Look at Sanchez and Geno they both were influenced by what fans and the media thought about them, of course learning to read defense's and a players mechanics come into play but that can be learned. If a QB is confident enough in his ability and is determined to make it happen it will. Just like the OP stated look at Dak his first year. I watched his first pre-season and regular season game and Dak stepped on that field like he owned it and just handled his responsibilities.

Its hard to judge how a guy will truly handle the pros mentally as it is culture shock from the college game where you are treated like a star to going to the pro's especially if you are doubted publicly by the Mel Kiper's of the world. I would think it would be beneficial to teams to hire a experienced profiler, ex military , Law enforcement type or a psychologist who can weed out people's true mental weaknesses. Look at some of the greats and their mental makeup and you see successful QB's. 

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1 hour ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

 

Its hard to judge how a guy will truly handle the pros mentally as it is culture shock from the college game where you are treated like a star to going to the pro's especially if you are doubted publicly by the Mel Kiper's of the world. I would think it would be beneficial to teams to hire a experienced profiler, ex military , Law enforcement type or a psychologist who can weed out people's true mental weaknesses. Look at some of the greats and their mental makeup and you see successful QB's. 

this isn't a situation where you have a crime scene and evidence, all you have to go on is interviews and game tape and everybody knows you are asking the questions to decide if you are going to draft the guy, so they aren't going to eff it up for the kid.  

there is just no way to reliably find out how a 23 year old kid will act when he has millions in the bank and he is on ESPN getting shredded by dick cimini

every interview will tell you he can handle it

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21 hours ago, Larz said:

this isn't a situation where you have a crime scene and evidence, all you have to go on is interviews and game tape and everybody knows you are asking the questions to decide if you are going to draft the guy, so they aren't going to eff it up for the kid.  

there is just no way to reliably find out how a 23 year old kid will act when he has millions in the bank and he is on ESPN getting shredded by dick cimini

every interview will tell you he can handle it

It's not like a crime scene investigation  it's more complicated than that and it's not like waterboarding the kid. It's more of an evaluation its not like a crime scene investigation  it's more complicated than that and it's not like waterboarding the kid. It's more of an evaluation during meetings and observations made by the specialist. They go along with the scouts when they talk to ex coaches and sit in on interviews. I know it sounds off but you can tell a lot about someone and their mental makeup when properly trained. Coaches are looking for diffrent things from players during the meetings as well as the kids mental makeup, but they are not trained. It's not like a Police Officer doing an interview. These people are not police officers or detectives. It's much more to it than that. This method is used is used in multiple jobs for people who have to deal with handling high stress and operating under pressure. Some teams already have staff psychologists. 

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1 hour ago, FTL Jet Fan said:

It's not like a crime scene investigation  it's more complicated than that and it's not like waterboarding the kid. It's more of an evaluation durIt's not like a crime scene investigation  it's more complicated than that and it's not like waterboarding the kid. It's more of an evaluation during meetings and observations made by the specialist. They go along with the scouts when they talk to ex coaches and sit in on interviews. I know it sounds off but you can tell a lot about someone and their mental makeup when properly trained. Coaches are looking for diffrent things from players during the meetings as well as the kids mental makeup, but they are not trained. It's not like a Police Officer doing an interview. These people are not police officers or detectives. It's much more to it than that. This method is used is used in multiple jobs for people who have to deal with handling high stress and operating under pressure. Some teams already have staff psychologists. 

and they wiff badly year after year

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23 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm really sick of this bullsh*t .........

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

100% agree.

What 'prototypical' QB attributes did Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Manning have that Grbac, Sanchez, Leif, RG3 didn't ?

It's pretty obviously it's all in the head, it's attitude, confidence, work ethic etc.

More work needs to be done on seeing the man in the boy and getting better reads on what makes up a long term high level QB.

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23 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

I'm really sick of this bullsh*t when it comes to so called "system QB's" A QB is either going to have what it takes or he's not. Its ALL about whats in his head because most of these guys have the physical skill sets to play the pro game. There has never been a position evaluated worse in all of sports than the QB position and that's simply because its easily the hardest position to play in all of sports and nothing even comes remotely close. So you either get lucky or you don't. We have not been lucky.

They make it sound like these guys could not possibly play from under center and IMHO that's bullsh*t. Most guys at this level have been playing or dreaming about the position of QB for most of their lives its not like they have never seen the game played before. They all watch the pro game and even those in a pro style offense in college still have the same issues as to whether they can handle the pressure of the pro game mentally. They can all learn play books the question is can they bring that to the field on game day ? Dak Prescott did it when no one expected anything from him during the draft same with Russel Wilson both of whom adapted in their rookie years and certainly did not play in any pro style offenses.

Go out and find a guy with guts and brains and teach him the position within your offense and see if it sticks. You usually know pretty early if they are going to make it or not or you very well could be a god damn Jets fan and evaluate a QB before he even gets any game action. There are a lot of QB's in College football and very few get to even try out on a pro roster. Since the scouts have no other way to evaluate these guys ever Imagine how many college QB's that could have turned out great and were never even signed as free agents after the draft.

The biggest key IMHO is getting that QB a good solid O line and a running game its no mystery why Prescott and Wilson played so well its because they had insane Running games to rely on. So what the Jets should do this year is continue to build that O-Line and draft a franchise type RB and let Petty and Hack battle it out if the winner totally sh*ts the bed then we know what to do in next years draft because if one of those guys sh*ts the bed we will probably have the high pick we need to go after a QB. Get the talent then get the QB or do both like Dallas did its certainly better than the way we threw Sanchez and Smith to the wolves with sh*tty WR's and terrible OC's and expected them to succeed. Sanchez seemed to start off decent and even played better in year 2 then it was all down hill with drunks and malcontents as his WR's as the running game went down the drain as well.

Its time to handle the position right and at lest give the guy we do put in there a fighting chance.

This is the weak link where it all fails. Who are the teachers and evaluators? We don't have Bill Belichick.

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37 minutes ago, The Walrus said:

100% agree.

What 'prototypical' QB attributes did Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw, Montana, Manning have that Grbac, Sanchez, Leif, RG3 didn't ?

It's pretty obviously it's all in the head, it's attitude, confidence, work ethic etc.

More work needs to be done on seeing the man in the boy and getting better reads on what makes up a long term high level QB.

What is "talent," Alex?

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8 hours ago, jetrider said:

This is the weak link where it all fails. Who are the teachers and evaluators? We don't have Bill Belichick.

I'm certainly no expert but the way I understand it, the difficult part is that a QB has to be able to read defenses and make very quick decisions. If a guy is not open then the QB has to go through his list of check downs (again very quickly). Doing this in the face of the remarkable caliber of athlete trying to get him has got to be incredibly difficult. 

I'm hardly convinced a military guy (as someone suggested) is going to be able to determine much in evaluating a young QB.  It's probably not something that can be determined until a QB deals w the game speed (they always talk about how the game "slows down" after a while). 

Btw I don't think a guy like Belichick is what makes Tom Brady either (though it certainly doesn't hurt!)

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On 19.2.2017 at 1:02 AM, YouPlay2Win said:

eli was pretty bad until his SB run


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So true. Only because of his pedigree did he get those extra chances. Anyone else would have been cut long ago, they just don't get that extra rope. That's the problem, you don't know if you're quitting on a guy too early, because for many it takes time...

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I dont think you NEED to suck to rebuild. Sucking just helps you get higher picks and makes getting talent more accessible. If we drafted the right players, developed the right players, and had the balls to start the right players we would be golden. I know easier said than done.

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7 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I'm certainly no expert but the way I understand it, the difficult part is that a QB has to be able to read defenses and make very quick decisions. If a guy is not open then the QB has to go through his list of check downs (again very quickly). Doing this in the face of the remarkable caliber of athlete trying to get him has got to be incredibly difficult. 

I'm hardly convinced a military guy (as someone suggested) is going to be able to determine much in evaluating a young QB.  It's probably not something that can be determined until a QB deals w the game speed (they always talk about how the game "slows down" after a while). 

Btw I don't think a guy like Belichick is what makes Tom Brady either (though it certainly doesn't hurt!)

BB finds a way to win with any QB he picks. Jets either pick lemons or turn theirs into lemons.

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19 hours ago, roscoeword said:

So true. Only because of his pedigree did he get those extra chances. Anyone else would have been cut long ago, they just don't get that extra rope. That's the problem, you don't know if you're quitting on a guy too early, because for many it takes time...

Exactamente- bring back Browning Nagle.  ?

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Another thing to look at when talking QB and how a team can move forward, is the type of offense you run from the standpoint of complicated or simple. Some of these offensive coordinators try to get really complicated with their schemes and all that does is slow things down on the field for the more explosive players. If you surround your QB with explosive players/talented players/smart players and simplify the offense they will play at a much higher level IMHO. They don't have much to think about and the offense becomes second nature to them so they play much faster and much smarter. I strongly feel this is the method Belichick uses with the Patriots. They run a short passing game offense and seem to easily plug in players you would never even think would make it in the NFL. A lot of that obviously has a lot to do with Tom Brady but keep in mind if you keep things simple it makes things much easier for him as well and all you have to do at that stage is execute and honestly who executes better than the Patriots ? All teams have the same practice time and I'm pretty sure the Pats are not a bunch of geniuses with physical talent.

So if this so called simple offense executes with superior athletes they will win the battle on the field more often than not. If you look at the Jets and listen to some of the post game interviews how many times do you have to hear "we didn't execute" ? How many times do you have to see broken plays ? How many times do you have to see a QB throw a ball ten feet away from the WR simply because they were not on the same page ? You can easily dictate to a defense if you run simple schemes if you have the players to do it and you have an OC who knows how to call plays and keep a defense off balance.

So in summary complicating things too much in todays NFL is having a negative effect on a lot of new QB's coming in and in the past (30-50 years ago) these problems just did not exist as much as they do now in terms of things being much too complicated  for one guy to pick up. Imagine for a second being a QB new to the NFL having to know exactly what every single players position on the LOS, what routes they are running, what protections to call, and read the defense all while learning the speed of the NFL also think about when a QB and WR have to be on the same page and break off a route during a blitz and they both need to be thinking that within split seconds. Its too much and it needs to be toned down.

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22 hours ago, JiF said:

You either have it or you dont, it's all about what's in your head.  That said, the key to success is the best OL, the best WR's and the best running game with a solid D.

True but you also have to know the players you have and a lot of that comes down on the coach. Why is it a guy like Andy Reid Wins where ever he goes ? Why did Parcells take 3 teams from the dumpster fire and get two to a SB and another to the AFCCG ? Why did Don Shula excel with his teams that always seemed to be lacking in talent but not smarts remember the Mud Bowl that team was not that good at all yet they coached them up big time and cheated of course. Don Shula was the grandfather of cheating. How about Jim Harbaugh, Bill Walsh Pete Carroll who all won big in both college and the pros.

So true, it is all about what's in a QB's head, no doubt but you cant overwhelm them either, since the game in its simplest form is hard enough for QB's

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4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

True but you also have to know the players you have and a lot of that comes down on the coach. Why is it a guy like Andy Reid Wins where ever he goes ? Why did Parcells take 3 teams from the dumpster fire and get two to a SB and another to the AFCCG ? Why did Don Shula excel with his teams that always seemed to be lacking in talent but not smarts remember the Mud Bowl that team was not that good at all yet they coached them up big time and cheated of course. Don Shula was the grandfather of cheating. How about Jim Harbaugh, Bill Walsh Pete Carroll who all won big in both college and the pros.

So true, it is all about what's in a QB's head, no doubt but you cant overwhelm them either, since the game in its simplest form is hard enough for QB's

Gotcha.  So they either have it or they dont but they cant be successful without a great OL, great WR's, a great running game, a great head coach and a great D. 

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