Jets offseason is predictable and scary

[section314]

6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Shell doesn't stink?  I would say the jury is still out.

FWIW, I know that it is unpopular around here, but IMO Revis is way more likely to be worth his contract than Mangold. 

How so?  

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

 

What the **** did I imply?  I specifically said the jury is still out.  You quoted me.  You put that part in bold.

By saying this  "Shell doesn't stink?" It kind of implies that you think the opposite is true. Just the wording.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, section314 said:

How so?  

If Revis returns to 2015 form he is pretty much worth the money.  If they move him to safety and he excels he is probably worth the money.  I believe either of those items is quite likely, though I'm still not a big advocate of keeping him.  If Mangold plays all 16 games at a pro bowl level I am still not sure he is worth $9.5M.  The difference in replacement value is astronomical. 

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

By saying this  "Shell doesn't stink?" It kind of implies that you think the opposite is true. Just the wording.

You need to take a class. 

[section314]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

If Revis returns to 2015 form he is pretty much worth the money.  If they move him to safety and he excels he is probably worth the money.  I believe either of those items is quite likely, though I'm still not a big advocate of keeping him.  If Mangold plays all 16 games at a pro bowl level I am still not sure he is worth $9.5M.  The difference in replacement value is astronomical. 

Fair points, but if Mangold is healthy and plays all 16 games, he makes the entire offense significantly better. I don't think you can say that about Revis. If they are both equally healthy, I think Mangold is much the better player at this stage of their careers. I'm biased...I just think a great center is way more valuable than a great corner.

[#27TheDominator]

Just now, section314 said:

Fair points, but if Mangold is healthy and plays all 16 games, he makes the entire offense significantly better. I don't think you can say that about Revis. If they are both equally healthy, I think Mangold is much the better player at this stage of their careers. I'm biased...I just think a great center is way more valuable than a great corner.

I am not sure I could disagree more strongly.  

I think almost everyone would agree with me.  Contracts tell the story.  The highest CB are around $15M a year.  Highest C at $9.5M.  The 10th highest CB is still making over $10M per, while the 10th highest C is around $6M. 

[PepPep]

18 hours ago, section314 said:

I agree with most of what you said except this.....these guys stink. Shell is the RT.

Shell has not gotten enough playing time to really show whether or not can start at RT. IMO.

Qvale and Ijalana started at RT and both played well. Qvale is the better run blocker, Ijalana is the better pass blocker. Before Qvale got hurt (concussion), they shared snaps at RT. 

Towards the end of the season, if I remember correctly, Breno, Clady, Qvale were all hurt. This put Shell at RT for a few games and Ijalana at LT. Ijalana struggled mightily at LT, Shell held his own at RT- but was not very good in the run game.

We will see what the Jets decide to do. Personally, I think they should let Ijalana walk and focus on developing Qvale and Shell at RT. Remember, Ijalana is not exactly a 'young' player- he is 27, so he's not old but he has been in the league for 6 year now and has still to break through as a legit starter. He's also dealt with some pretty serious knee injuries. I don't think he is worth investing in, especially if he has shown he cannot handle the LT spot.

The Jets have already released Clady, but I think there is a chance they will re-sign him to more of a cap friendly deal. It depends on whether or not they believe he can stay healthy. Remember, Clady has missed extensive time in the past but that was due to knee injuries. His injury this past season was a torn rotator cuff- so the two are not related. If the Jets believe the shoulder injury was more of a fluke and they can sign him to a team friendly deal, they may want to bring him back. Frankly, he is one of the top LTs in FA right now.

As far as Mangold, it just makes too much sense for the Jets to cut him and re-sign Wesley Johnson. Having said that, they are thin on depth and if Mangold agrees to a deal without many guarantees (giving the team an out in the next couple of years), they will probably want to keep him around. Otherwise, he is a prime candidate to be a cap casualty while W.Johnson (a RFA) is a prime candidate to get re-signed and start at C.

Assuming the Jets bring back Clady, let Magold walk, resign W.Johnson, let Ijalana walk...that will leave a hole at RT. It can be filled by Shell or Qvale. But it could also be filled by a rookie. If the Jets draft an OT to play LT (Garcia, Bolles, etc.), he will probably only get a chance at the RT spot (otherwise remain on the bench until he is ready).

I am fine with: Clady, Carpenter, W.Johnson, Winters, Qvale/Shell/rookie. It's not dominant by any means, but if guys stay healthy and develop some chemistry, they should be plenty good enough to protect the QB and have an efficient running game (especially if the Jets draft Fournette- giving them a 3-headed monster at RB).        

[PepPep]

18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I am not sure I could disagree more strongly.  

I think almost everyone would agree with me.  Contracts tell the story.  The highest CB are around $15M a year.  Highest C at $9.5M.  The 10th highest CB is still making over $10M per, while the 10th highest C is around $6M. 

Some of this is about availability. Its MUCH easier to find a great C than it is to find a great CB. This is why top tier CB prospects get drafted high in rd 1 and top tier C prospects rarely go in the first round. 

IMO- Revis is a much more important player. Setting the $$$ aside, the problem is that Mangold can still play at a very high level. Revis, IMO, cannot. I don;t see him coming back to his 2015 form and I don't see him being a very good safety. So because of that, he is not worth the money. On the other hand, the Jets have W.Johnson (RFA) who did a very good job filling in for Mangold. They do not have anyone to fill in for Revis. If the Jets can bring in T.Johnson or S.Gilmore or another top tier CB FA to fill Revis' spot, then Revis should be jettisoned. If Mangold does not agree to re-work his deal, I doubt the Jets will carry his salary just to let him walk next year. It would make more sense for them to cut him.

Frankly, its time to move on from both of these guys and bring in younger talent. If I'm not mistaken, that's like 19mil off the books if both are cut. W.Johnson will not command nearly the same salary as Mangold and I'd rather invest big bucks in T.Johnson or S.Gilmore than keep Revis around not knowing whether he will regain his old form or not.  

[#27TheDominator]

According to Cimini, the re-signing Ijalana should be a priority. I think it makes sense. He will probably be cheap and is versatile. He has played both tackle spots and guard. I don't think they should ever plan on starting him, but he is a good guy to have around just in case.  I think they will make him a low-ish offer then let him test the market.  If he gets offered a real deal he can help get a comp pick back for 2018, if not (like last year) he will be back for a small, short deal.  I think that is what they did with him in 2016 and Powell in 2015.  

Interesting guy, PFF supposedly rated him highest tackle in the preseason one year with the Colts, but Peyton Manning supposedly said "there is something missing" and Howard Mudd was an apparent anonymous source saying Ijalana "can't play dead."  

 

[JetFaninMI]

20 hours ago, DMan77 said:

Just curious, does writing out and just assuming the worst make people feel better? Does it actually help you to write it down? Do you feel better being cynical and expecting the worst? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk here, I'm genuinely curious... Because for me, I'd rather focus on what they could do right. I'd choose to highlight the ways in which they can improve instead of consistently talking about what they'll do wrong... That's just me though. Everyone's different... I just don't get the satisfaction in threads like this. 

Well it comes from watching this teams management sh*t the bed time after time. Optimism and Jet Fandom never walks hand in hand. I could see that scenario coming true very easily. Years of seeing other teams bypass the Jets in terms of development and wins has jaded the fan base and we yearn for a team to dominate and deliver the fan base from the culture of losing that surrounds us. That's why I am all for releasing the deadwood(including the front office and coaching staff) and building through the draft and creating cap space. You have to start from scratch and make it attractive for high quality front office guys to come here. The rest will follow but until that happens we are basically ****ed. Look at the Mets model. They brought in Alderson and made smart moves and acted like many called a small market team. Now they are loaded at the Major League level and have a strong farm system. Maybe that's a model to follow? I know its different in the NFL but the basic model is the same. The quick fix simply does not work.

Don't get me wrong. I still bleed green and white and live and die with this team on the field. They just need to see that signing guys based on past performance is not working! They need young hungry guys on this roster to grow together and build a team We can all be proud of. Until that day you will get the same result time after time.

[Sperm Edwards]

On 2/23/2017 at 9:35 AM, johnnysd said:

The full move was to fire Bowles (especially since Gailey was already leaving) and commit 3 to 5 years to Mac 

Hahahahahaha.

If Woody did that he should have himself committed.

[Larz]

It all starts at the top, and our top is a C student from a party school who was so stupid his father didn't trust him with family money until he was 30.

[UnitedWhofans]

Well so far it has not been predictable because nobody on here predicted the Jets to get a 3rd round comp pick.

[Jetster]

Until we get our QB situation settled nothing else matters really. You can't win consistently in this league without a trigger man & we still have no clue what we have in Hackenberg.

But I do believe your selling Macc short on his drafts & UDFA signings. Like someone else mentioned, if we sign a CB like Gilmore  & draft a safety like Hooker or Adams, we've instantly upgraded the secondary & the depth as everyone slides back into depth. 

We still don't know what we have in Middleton who looked pretty good at times. Burris made some plays & comes into camp with experience now. The same with the LBs, Lee & Jenkins, you cut Harris and add the younger Minter they could be vastly improved. My belief is that Wilkerson comes back strong and Macc finds an edge rusher, Greene works Mauldin and helps him immensely. Leo with another year in the weight room should explode in 2017. 

We already got a 3rd round comp pick (107) and that is huge. Just imagine if Macc IS able to trade Sheldon for a 2 or a high 3 and we get lucky & move back to the Browns spot (most likely scenario) and add a 2 & 4, it could be just what the doctor ordered for our future. I'm praying it happens, pick @ 12, 2 second round picks, 2 third round picks, 2 fourths. 5 picks in the top 107! 

Maybe, just maybe, things won't be as dire as most Jet fans think. I actually like Macc, he's a workaholic, cut his teeth as a scout, has much stronger group of southern scouts. Let's hope he can find another RB like Foster late in this draft.

[thadude]

Petty and Hack stink

 

We have been trying to develop young Qb's forever.  Browning Nagle, Glenn Foley, Ray Lucas, Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Mark Sanchez, Geno Smith and now Putrid/Wack say hello

 

The idea this franchise has never tried to grow its own Qb is just ignorant

[thadude]

On February 23, 2017 at 1:57 PM, #27TheDominator said:

I am not sure I could disagree more strongly.  

I think almost everyone would agree with me.  Contracts tell the story.  The highest CB are around $15M a year.  Highest C at $9.5M.  The 10th highest CB is still making over $10M per, while the 10th highest C is around $6M. 

We don't need to sign another expensive corner.  We need pass rush

 

Sign JPP or Nick Perry and draft Tim Williams or Taco

 

[rangerous]

On 2/23/2017 at 10:08 AM, UnitedWhofans said:

 

1.  Name me a franchise that has fired a head coach after 2 years in which the first year, the team won 10 or more games. No one has yet to answer this. And that seems to be that it hasn't been done because it's bad business.

2. You can't really reach for a safety or a CB in the top ten if they have been projected into the top ten. That is why Darron Lee, no matter how many people try to make the point, was not a reach. If anything, drafting an OL or a QB in the top ten may be a reach this year.

3. If they win 7 games and the young talent is developing, Bowles and Macc are staying. Woody did not make the playoffs a mandate. He's had chances but he didn't

 

chan gailey?  this is the second time this has been answered.

at this point i don't know how to assess either mac or bowles.  they got the team to 10 wins with a journeyman qb and then backed it up with a 5 win stinker. i'm not going to use the schedule as an excuse because just about every one of their opponents this past season was beatable if they put 60 minutes of good sound playing on the field. so we'll see.  i would prefer if woody had some patience and doesn't have a short hook but sometimes the guys gotta go.

[joewilly12]

6 hours ago, thadude said:

We don't need to sign another expensive corner.  We need pass rush

 

Sign JPP or Nick Perry and draft Tim Williams or Taco

 

Our secondary has more holes than a golf course we need to address the situation as well as a legitimate pass rush.

[thadude]

42 minutes ago, joewilly12 said:

Our secondary has more holes than a golf course we need to address the situation as well as a legitimate pass rush.

The "holes" are way exacerbated when you get zero pass rush

 

You guys love us to sign overpriced DB's (Revis, Cro, Gilchrist)

[UnitedWhofans]

Well so far, all the signs are pointing to the Jets rebuilding. They've cut most of the veterans. Revis they will wait on until March 2nd.

[Dunnie]

Petty and Hack stink  

We have been trying to develop young Qb's forever.  Browning Nagle, Glenn Foley, Ray Lucas, Chad Pennington, Kellen Clemens, Mark Sanchez, Geno Smith and now Putrid/Wack say hello

 

The idea this franchise has never tried to grow its own Qb is just ignorant

 

your schtick is old and tired ... Petty is backup material ... as was intended .... Hack is being groomed to compete [shakes head]

 

My guess is we will have a top 5 pick next year and draft another QB to compete.

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

[joewilly12]

25 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Well so far, all the signs are pointing to the Jets rebuilding. They've cut most of the veterans. Revis they will wait on until March 2nd.

The NY Jets rebuilding since 1969..................

[Dunnie]

2017 could see Hack compete w Pat Mahomes

 

(who we could grab in the early 3rd)

 

Sign me up for tray right now.

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

 

[Warfish]

O-Line just joined CB as our #1 overall need (ignoring QB).

So far we cut our Center and both Tackles.  

On a team with two kids at QB and a worn out old man at #1 RB.

We could draft nothing but O-line and DB's and still not fix the two damn units at this rate.

[Bugg]

On 2/23/2017 at 9:35 AM, johnnysd said:

We do not have to even wait for the actual events to happen to know what the Jets will do this offseason and how it will certainly extend the cycle of mediocrity for our team. 

Woody, master of half measures, of course did it again. Bowles is not a long term solution at HC. He lost the team, is poor at game planning, in game management, teaching, developing young players and on and on. I am all for longevity at the coaching position, but you have to choose the right person to begin with. Mac has not been stellar but has made some good draft picks and quite a few good UDFA signings and his drafts are influenced by Bowles yet another "all defense, no offense" style head coach.

The full move was to fire Bowles (especially since Gailey was already leaving) and commit 3 to 5 years to Mac with his HC to build a team.

Of course Woody chose the half move again, and essentially decided to make both Bowles and Mac both lame ducks.

So going into the offseason they both know they cannot focus on building long term success they have to figure out how to win now. So here is our offseason:

1. We will once again mortgage the future and "win" the free agency period. After a veteran purge, expect Mac to spend like a madman on highly overpaid mediocre talents at OL and in the secondary. None will be good.

2. They won't take a chance at developing a QB, and Bowles is yet another HC that wants a veteran game manager, so expect a surprisingly high contract for yet another veteran retread QB like Cutler effectively giving up on both Hack and Petty

3. Expect the draft to once again be defense again, probably a reach at CB or safety (none of which are good choices at 6 EVER unless you get a Charles Woodson, or Troy Polamalu. We will draft a couple project lineman in mid rounds and a couple skill players late

And we will suck next year and be boring to watch again. We will limp to 6 or 7 wins at best, Mac and Bowles will be fired and the cycle will start all over again with Woody once again hiring another DC flavor of the month that will not care about offense again and will be truly mediorce for  3 or 4 years before we do the same thing again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

May be Mangold cut portends full retard rather than half assed? Basically somebody out at Florham Park has figured out this team isn't winning anything in 2017, so suck for Darnold instead of putting bandaids on sucking chest wounds. And why taint the new coach for 2018 with this coming sheethsow.

[#27TheDominator]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:10 AM, thadude said:

We don't need to sign another expensive corner.  We need pass rush

 

Sign JPP or Nick Perry and draft Tim Williams or Taco

 

You are always so sure of yourself!    

Of course they need another good corner.  They don't have to be expensive, but if you go FA, they will be.  I love your idea of asset allocation.  You want to sign JPP or Nick Perry (who literally had half the sacks in his 5 year career in 2016) AND use a high first on a pass rusher?  Great idea!  All pass rush, no O and no secondary.  JPP is a pretty poor fit, especially if you can't move Richardson.  He doesn't fit in with Wilkerson and Williams, let alone Richardson too.  Are you going to run them in shifts?  Still going to have money for Glennon after this? 

[thadude]

39 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You are always so sure of yourself!    

Of course they need another good corner.  They don't have to be expensive, but if you go FA, they will be.  I love your idea of asset allocation.  You want to sign JPP or Nick Perry (who literally had half the sacks in his 5 year career in 2016) AND use a high first on a pass rusher?  Great idea!  All pass rush, no O and no secondary.  JPP is a pretty poor fit, especially if you can't move Richardson.  He doesn't fit in with Wilkerson and Williams, let alone Richardson too.  Are you going to run them in shifts?  Still going to have money for Glennon after this? 

Because $15 million corners look so great when they have to cover their assignments for 35 seconds because our front 7 can't sniff the qb

[#27TheDominator]

9 minutes ago, thadude said:

Because $15 million corners look so great when they have to cover their assignments for 35 seconds because our front 7 can't sniff the qb

Everything is so simple!   Why doesn't anybody else realize this surprising fact?  

The D was acceptable in 2016 and sucked in 2015. The pass rushers did not deteriorate, the secondary did.  Or do you really miss Calvin Pace?

[Tinstar]

54 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Everything is so simple!   Why doesn't anybody else realize this surprising fact?  

The D was acceptable in 2016 and sucked in 2015. The pass rushers did not deteriorate, the secondary did.  Or do you really miss Calvin Pace?

Who was more important to the jets defense, an over the hill OLBer who couldn't get near the QB or a NT who caused havoc against running game giving our pass rushers more opportunities to pin their ears back .

[BurnleyJet]

On 23 February 2017 at 3:40 PM, T0mShane said:

Sign corner.

Sign safety.

Sign corner.

Sign unstartable OL.

Sign backup-backup DE.

Get rebuffed on Richardson trades.

Sign ILB.

Get strung along by Trash QB X.

Talk up Hackenberg.

Vastly overpay for Brian Hoyer.

"We still think Christian can be a very good player in this league, but..."

Draft: 1. CB; 2. Ryan Anderson; 3. OG; 4. DT; 5. QB; 6. SS; 7. DE

With Bill Murray playing the part of Macc, the caffeine addicted GM under preasure, in yet another Win at all costs season. In Ground Hog  day 2 (A New Jersey Story).