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[SAR I]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

I understand Chad and Vinny,

Vinny had the greatest single season for a QB in franchise history, le us to a franchise record for wins, led us to 1st AFC East title and to AFC championship game.

Chad led us to 2nd AFC East title and in years he was healthy we made the playoffs each time and won a couple of playoff games.

See, that's what I don't understand.

Vinny Testaverde was a contributing starting quarterback for 6 seasons in New York leading an offense with HOF RB and HOF C.  He was 1-2 in the playoffs.  He killed our 1999 season with injury.  In 2000 he was the only quarterback in NFL history to open a season 6-1 and fail to make the playoffs, one of the few to be sitting at 9-4 and blow the last 3 games to miss the playoffs, it's unfathomable, it's as big a fail as 1998 was a win.  He threw 25 interceptions!  Testaverde then crapped all over the team for two more years.  When we finally gave the ball to his successor, holding onto him for those first few games cost us a first round bye.  They ran Sanchez out of town for far, far less than VT's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved.

Chad Pennington, same thing, he would kill the franchise every-other-season with a stupid injury and then eke out a wildcard that he'd lose in craptastic fashion.  After 2002 didn't have a clutch win to his name, stuck around until 2008 bringing down what was left of our HOF RB and HOF C's time here.  Again, Sanchez gets run out of town for far less than Chad's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved. 

Sanchez is mud in this town because of two things:  Rex Ryan lovers and the Butfumble.  It's a shame.  Scapegoated for his head coach being a moron and sensitive millennials whose feelings were hurt by ESPN.

SAR I

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, SAR I said:

See, that's what I don't understand.

Vinny Testaverde was a contributing starting quarterback for 6 seasons in New York.  He was 1-1 in the playoffs.  He killed our 1999 season with injury.  In 2000 he was the only quarterback in NFL history to open a season 6-1 and fail to make the playoffs, one of the few to be sitting at 9-4 and blow the last 3 games to miss the playoffs, it's unfathomable, it's as big a fail as 1998 was a win.  He threw 25 interceptions!  They ran Sanchez out of town for far, far less than VT's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved.

Chad Pennington, same thing, he would kill the franchise every-other-season with a stupid injury and then eke out a wildcard that he'd lose in craptastic fashion.  Again, Sanchez gets run out of town for far less than Chad's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved. 

Sanchez is mud in this town because of two things:  Rex Ryan lovers and the Butfumble on ESPN.  It's a shame.  Scapegoated for his head coach being a moron.

SAR I

we are going to blame Vinny for getting hurt in 1999? or should we blame the HC/GM for not being prepared w/ a competent backup?

 

2000 was his first year after the injury, people forget how mobile Vinny was before the achilles and it took him time to adjust.  the coaches allowed him to throw away that season.  what herm did in 2001 was limit his throws and ride Curtis and we made the playoffs.

Chad was brittle, it was Jets luck.  we had a franchise caliber QB and a premiere pass rusher(Abe) that were young but both always hurt.  how different ghings could have been if both were durable.

 

Rex was a good coach, the problem was the talent drain and then Idzik coming on board and that destroyed Mark in NY.

[nyjunc]

57 minutes ago, JetPotato said:

How mindless to be discussing Mark Sanchez, who could not be trusted to throw more than 20 times a game (in a pass-friendly era) and benefitted from a stout defense to win games, to Ken O'Brien, who routinely could throw his team to victory (see the many shootouts with Miami). In this era, I assure you, Ken O'Brien is a very solid QB, where Sanchez can't crack even the worst lineups.

please show me all the big games kenny threw us to victory?

 

Interesting note, Kenny's postseason high in attempts was 31 at Houston in 1991, he threw 3 INTs( as many as Mark in 6 playoff games).  Mark in 25 attempts at NE(a much better team than anyone Kenny ever faced in postseason) threw 3 TDs(which was more than Ken in 3 games).

We can't move players to different eras, in ken's era w/ more talent around him in a weaker AC he couldn't even win a single playoff game while in this era in a tougher AFC Mark helped his team win FOUR playoff games all on the road.  

the mindless are the ones who look at meaningless #s and youtube clips and determine Ken was a good QB.  if ken had the exact same career in the internet era he'd have been run out of town w/in 3 years.

[section314]

42 minutes ago, SAR I said:

See, that's what I don't understand.

Vinny Testaverde was a contributing starting quarterback for 6 seasons in New York leading an offense with HOF RB and HOF C.  He was 1-2 in the playoffs.  He killed our 1999 season with injury.  In 2000 he was the only quarterback in NFL history to open a season 6-1 and fail to make the playoffs, one of the few to be sitting at 9-4 and blow the last 3 games to miss the playoffs, it's unfathomable, it's as big a fail as 1998 was a win.  He threw 25 interceptions!  Testaverde then crapped all over the team for two more years.  When we finally gave the ball to his successor, holding onto him for those first few games cost us a first round bye.  They ran Sanchez out of town for far, far less than VT's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved.

Chad Pennington, same thing, he would kill the franchise every-other-season with a stupid injury and then eke out a wildcard that he'd lose in craptastic fashion.  After 2002 didn't have a clutch win to his name, stuck around until 2008 bringing down what was left of our HOF RB and HOF C's time here.  Again, Sanchez gets run out of town for far less than Chad's pathetic body of work.  But no, he's beloved. 

Sanchez is mud in this town because of two things:  Rex Ryan lovers and the Butfumble.  It's a shame.  Scapegoated for his head coach being a moron and sensitive millennials whose feelings were hurt by ESPN.

SAR I

Pathetic body of work?  Chad in 61 career starts....TD 82  INT 55   Comp.% 65.6   rating 88.9      Sanchez in 62 career starts......TD 68 INT 69   Comp.%55.1    Rating 71.7        

[nyjunc]

6 minutes ago, section314 said:

Pathetic body of work?  Chad in 61 career starts....TD 82  INT 55   Comp.% 65.6   rating 88.9      Sanchez in 62 career starts......TD 68 INT 69   Comp.%55.1    Rating 71.7        

I disagree w/ him there, both guys had success here in different ways.  if we could combine them into one healthy QB and get reg season Chad and postseason Mark then we'd win championships.

[SAR I]

41 minutes ago, section314 said:

Pathetic body of work?  Chad in 61 career starts....TD 82  INT 55   Comp.% 65.6   rating 88.9      Sanchez in 62 career starts......TD 68 INT 69   Comp.%55.1    Rating 71.7        

Pennington:  Graduated as a senior, then had 2 seasons on the bench to learn.  Age 26 at his first start.

Sanchez:  Left school early as a junior, rushed into active duty immediately.  Age 22 at his first start.

Pennington:  Had a Hall Of Fame running back (Martin) his entire career.

Sanchez:  Had a cast of characters who busted (Greene) or were over the hill (Tomlinson).

Pennington:  Had Wayne Chrebet.

Sanchez:  Had Chaz Schillenz.

You have fun with your numbers, though.  Because they tell the whole story of course.  Except the playoff stats.  You conveniently left those out.

SAR I

[section314]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Pennington:  Graduated as a senior, then had 2 seasons on the bench to learn.  Age 26 at his first start.

Sanchez:  Left school early as a junior, rushed into active duty immediately.  Age 22 at his first start.

Pennington:  Had a Hall Of Fame running back (Martin) his entire career.

Sanchez:  Had a cast of characters who busted (Greene) or were over the hill (Tomlinson).

Pennington:  Had Wayne Chrebet.

Sanchez:  Had Chaz Schillenz.

You have fun with your numbers, though.  Because they tell the whole story of course.  Except the playoff stats.  You conveniently left those out.

SAR I

SAR...nobody forced Sanchez to leave early, did they? Sanchez had a much better Oline than Chad, and had Braylon and Santonio, both equal to or better than Chrebett.  I'll give you playoffs, Sanchez was 9 TD, 3 INT's   to 7 and 5.  My point is, Chad was not a bum , he was a good QB. Just as you say Sanchez was ruined by coaching, I say Chad was ruined by injury.  

[SAR I]

11 minutes ago, section314 said:

SAR...nobody forced Sanchez to leave early, did they? Sanchez had a much better Oline than Chad, and had Braylon and Santonio, both equal to or better than Chrebett.  I'll give you playoffs, Sanchez was 9 TD, 3 INT's   to 7 and 5.  My point is, Chad was not a bum , he was a good QB. Just as you say Sanchez was ruined by coaching, I say Chad was ruined by injury.  

Gotcha, we're mostly on the same page.

Injury is part of who Chad was.  Whether random acts of God or actual inability, the guy wasn't on the field 50% of the time we counted on him to be.  We wasted so many years waiting for him to regain his 2002 form and stamina and it never happened.  2003 to 2007 is 5 years, that's a significant amount of time we were held hostage by the Noodle.

SAR I

[Jet Nut]

4 hours ago, SAR I said:

Pennington:  Graduated as a senior, then had 2 seasons on the bench to learn.  Age 26 at his first start.

Sanchez:  Left school early as a junior, rushed into active duty immediately.  Age 22 at his first start.

Pennington:  Had a Hall Of Fame running back (Martin) his entire career.

Sanchez:  Had a cast of characters who busted (Greene) or were over the hill (Tomlinson).

Pennington:  Had Wayne Chrebet.

Sanchez:  Had Chaz Schillenz.

You have fun with your numbers, though.  Because they tell the whole story of course.  Except the playoff stats.  You conveniently left those out.

SAR I

Pennington was a better QB than Sanchez in any and every way you judge a QB.  Wins are on the team.  To credit Sanchez with 4 playoff wins as if he was the contributing factor to those wins is either trolling or a function of being clueless

[nyjunc]

18 hours ago, SAR I said:

Pennington:  Graduated as a senior, then had 2 seasons on the bench to learn.  Age 26 at his first start.

Sanchez:  Left school early as a junior, rushed into active duty immediately.  Age 22 at his first start.

Pennington:  Had a Hall Of Fame running back (Martin) his entire career.

Sanchez:  Had a cast of characters who busted (Greene) or were over the hill (Tomlinson).

Pennington:  Had Wayne Chrebet.

Sanchez:  Had Chaz Schillenz.

You have fun with your numbers, though.  Because they tell the whole story of course.  Except the playoff stats.  You conveniently left those out.

SAR I

Chad didn't have Curtis his entire career and in the 2002 season where he led us to div title Curtis was playing badly hurt and a shell of the guy we saw most of his career.  In 2006 he led us to playoffs w/ Kevan Barlow at RB.

Chrebet is one of the most overrated players in Jets history and Chad got Wayne at the end of Wayne's career.

2012 Sanchez had Schilens but when he had success he had Braylon, Cotch, Holmes- all better than Wayne.

 

 

[nyjunc]

13 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Pennington was a better QB than Sanchez in any and every way you judge a QB.  Wins are on the team.  To credit Sanchez with 4 playoff wins as if he was the contributing factor to those wins is either trolling or a function of being clueless

he was a major contributing factor in all 4 of those playoff wins.  some guys can get it done in big games and some can't(like a philip Rivers).

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

he was a major contributing factor in all 4 of those playoff wins.  some guys can get it done in big games and some can't(like a philip Rivers).

And still, you are wrong.  No matter how many times you repeat yourself.  100 yards vs SD isn't a major contributing factor.  No matter how many excuses you make for him. 

And I would trade a Sanchez every time for a Rivers.  

[nyjunc]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And still, you are wrong.  No matter how many times you repeat yourself.  100 yards vs SD isn't a major contributing factor.  No matter how many excuses you make for him. 

And I would trade a Sanchez every time for a Rivers.  

he was HUGE in that game and again once we got the double digit lead we stopped throwing the ball or his #s would have looked better.  Rivers had better #s, Mark was the best QB on the field that day.

Rivers had MUCH better teams around him his first 5-6 years as a starter and the only time he made it as far as a title game was when he got hurt and his backup led the GW TD drive in the div rd.

[SAR I]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And still, you are wrong.  No matter how many times you repeat yourself.  100 yards vs SD isn't a major contributing factor.  No matter how many excuses you make for him.

It's not about yards.  It's about decision-making.

As the guy holding the ball, reading the defense, running the set play, calling an audible, deciding which target to throw to, or improvising on a broken play, the offense is all about the quarterback.

It's silly to think that Mark Sanchez had no contribution to a road playoff victory because his stats aren't atmospheric.  Or this nonsense that we were "carried by the defense".  Mark did a great job for a 22 year old with no NFL experience.  It's a pity we'll never know what he might have amounted to with a little more time and a little more support.

SAR I

[Jet Nut]

12 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

he was HUGE in that game and again once we got the double digit lead we stopped throwing the ball or his #s would have looked better.  Rivers had better #s, Mark was the best QB on the field that day.

Rivers had MUCH better teams around him his first 5-6 years as a starter and the only time he made it as far as a title game was when he got hurt and his backup led the GW TD drive in the div rd.

You love to rewrite games.  100 yards.  They weren't leading by a wide margin and running out the clock.  The go ahead TD was a short drive after a Leonhard INT. Mark was the lesser QB that night but was lucky enough to be on the better team.  

You put way too much into how a team plays and a win or two to sell players like Sanchez who was as bad a QB as there ever was to win a playoff game

[Jet Nut]

19 minutes ago, SAR I said:

It's not about yards.  It's about decision-making.

As the guy holding the ball, reading the defense, running the set play, calling an audible, deciding which target to throw to, or improvising on a broken play, the offense is all about the quarterback.

It's silly to think that Mark Sanchez had no contribution to a road playoff victory because his stats aren't atmospheric.  Or this nonsense that we were "carried by the defense".  Mark did a great job for a 22 year old with no NFL experience.  It's a pity we'll never know what he might have amounted to with a little more time and a little more support.

SAR I

Pretty much the last thing I would bring up when trying to make a case for Sanchez is his decision making skills.  

And no it's not silly to say Sanchez had little to do with those playoff wins or that the team was carried by the defense.  That's what they were, a defense first, run second team that hoped its QB wouldn't screw up.  To not recognize that is silly though

[nyjunc]

30 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You love to rewrite games.  100 yards.  They weren't leading by a wide margin and running out the clock.  The go ahead TD was a short drive after a Leonhard INT. Mark was the lesser QB that night but was lucky enough to be on the better team.  

You put way too much into how a team plays and a win or two to sell players like Sanchez who was as bad a QB as there ever was to win a playoff game

they were up by DOUBLE DIGITS w/ a ROOKIE QB.  

the go ahead TD drive was a short one but would you have preferred they settled for a FG and pull w/in 7-6 rather than go up 10-7? and did you notice the great play Mark made keeping that 3rd down alive w/ his legs and making a spectacular throw to Keller for the TD?

this game is about winning, you don't win like we did w/ bad QB play.  You are someone consumed w/ meaningless #s rather than focusing on players making plays to win.

Mark's last throw in that game was a CRITICAL 3rd down right before the long Greene run, no 1st down no Greene run and the game remains 10-7.  after the Greene TD Sanchez didn't throw a pass and Rivers threw 12 more times which gave him better fantasy #s. so you would have preferred we trailed and had to tack on garbage time #s so his stat line would be better?

 

Mark was a ROOKIE on the road in the div rd against the hottest team in the AFC, he made 3 critical 3rd down throws, had the gerat play to throw the TD and didn't kill us w/ mistakes UNLIKE his counterpart which threw the game changing pick from his EZ.

 

and yes we were a D first team but outside of a couple of Greene runs we had no consistent run game in that playoff run and Mark and the pass O gave our D a double digit lead in Indy and they blew it in the title game.

[SAR I]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Pretty much the last thing I would bring up when trying to make a case for Sanchez is his decision making skills.  

And no it's not silly to say Sanchez had little to do with those playoff wins or that the team was carried by the defense.  That's what they were, a defense first, run second team that hoped its QB wouldn't screw up.  To not recognize that is silly though

I don't think I need to explain how a quarterback operates in a football game, cues offensive alignments, audibles out of a pass and changes it to a run, how he steps back and reads his receivers, picks the one to throw to.  Hate Mark Sanchez 2013 all you like, there's no way we win 4 2009 and 2010 playoff games without him.

SAR I