What is a "mentor" QB really?

[Villain The Foe]

Serious question. What are the requirements for this title? 

I've read and heard so many Jets fans talk about how these vets that Macc have signed are hear to "mentor the young pups". My problem here is this. These vets were terrible when you take their entire career into view. Outside of growing a great beard (Fitz) and being a nice guy that people like having around (McCown) what are they actually teaching these guys or mentoring them in? More importantly, what does a guy like Josh McCown have to pass down relevant to the actual game and is there any part of his game that any Jets fan would like guys like Petty and Hackenberg to adapt?

I dont understand bringing in vets who dont have any sort of respectable history at the position. I mean for goodness sake, the Rex Ryan era even got this correct. I remember when Rex and Co. brought in Mark Brunell as Sanchez "mentor". This here was a guy who had success in colleged and the NFL. This is a guy who won a national title in college, a guy who played in 11 playoff games, who's been at the top of his game, a guy who took an expansion team Jacksonville Jaguars to the AFCCG, a guy who was a 3X probowler, a guy who led the league in passing yards before and has thrown over 30,000 total yards in his NFL career, a guy who is considered a LEGEND for one of his former franchises, a guy who actually won a championship, albeit as a back up with the Saints. 

Would this be a guy that you bring in to mentor your young QB? 

I remember Rex Ryan and Co. going after David Garrard, another former Jaguar and another former probowler. A guy who's resume as a Jag isnt nearly as extensive as Mark, but a guy who was a probowler for the Jags, a guy who's career completion percentage is over 60%, a guy who has playoff history and actually won a playoff game. A guy who's just missed a 2TD to 1 INT ratio for his career. 

This is a guy I can see bringing in as a mentor because there's a history with those type of players that you would like to instill into your QB, the most important is being a winner. These guys won during their prime, they made the playoffs and won playoff games and divisions during their primes. they were probowlers during their prime. These are guys with a history of success in this league so if bringing someone like this in as a mentor, from the outside looking in would make sense if the reason is to develop a young talent right? I mean, the last time we seen a guy purposely sit behind another guy in order to learn and has become great was Aaron Rodgers. The last time we seen a QB sit behind someone and become pretty good is Tyrod Taylor. Both of these guys learned from guys who've had success in this league and were champions...Brett Favre and Joe Flacco. I've asked this question for 2 seasons already and it will now be a 3rd (with McCown). Who has Fitz/McCown mentored that ultimately become of something? If the answer is "no one" then why in the blue hell are we over paying these guys to mentor our QB's when they dont have a history of success in this league as a playor or a history of success with helping develop young QB talent? 

 

2ndly, I dont understand why we NEED to sign overpriced vets mainly for this reason to begin with when plenty of young QB's varying accross draft positions have been successful in this league almost immediately without this ever-important "mentor". Other's have been able to atleast start football games. Let me run down just a few.  Marcus Mariota, Dak Prescott, Russell WIlson, Gared Goff, Carson Wentz, Derek Carr...etc. We have Jameis Winston, a guy who right before being drafted it was reported that he was stealing crab legs from his local supermarket. This guy is drafted #1 overall, didnt need a mentor on how to be "professional", goes out and is the 1st QB in history to have 2 4,000 yard seasons to start his career. And I made sure to mention Goff because I dont just want to bring up young QB's who were immediately successful. Jared Goff wasnt ready to start the season, but he sat for half the year and then the coach threw him out there to see if he can sink or swim. Meanwhile, the Jets need 3 years of mentoring Bryce Petty and 2 years for Hackenberg, with QB's who've never been much in this league to begin with. Either these guys can play the game or they cant. There is NOTHING that Ryan Fitzpatrick or Josh McCown can teach, in respects to going out and playing the game, that I would be interested in these guys learning. Mark Brunell? Sure, because he's proven to be a winner. 

 

So, my confusion here is when I hear that people shouldnt be upset when we go from arguably the worst QB performance in Jets history to then signing arguably the worst QB in the league, both guys who were considered there to "mentor the young guys". Also, this mentoring position is highly overrated. Brock Osweiler sat behind Peyton Manning for years AND was drafted by a GM that is considered one of the best QB's in this game's history. He goes out to Houston and puts up a dud that was so bad they sent him to football purgatory (Cleveland). 

 

My personal opinion on this whole "mentor" title that I hear fans state is just a way to mask over bad decisions. It's damage controlling for the GM making these decisions. Just my thoughts so people can understand why im clearly upset with this front office decision making. 

[JoeC36]

TL:DR

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, JoeC36 said:

TL:DR

Not surprised in this A.D.D. age. 

[Jet Life]

An excuse to sign an old , crappy vet 

[JustInFudge]

It doesnt exist.  Players play.  Not mentor, teach and develop.  That's what coaches get paid for and why there are 20 on every team for every single position group in addition to coordinators. 

McCown was brought in to be the starter.  Dont get it twisted. 

Even in your example of Rex getting it right bringing in the right type of mentor with Brunell, Sanchez still sucked.  Why?  Because this mentor role doesnt exist.  

It's cute to talk about though.

 

[Gas2No99]

A mentor QB is a NFL player who INSISTS he CAN physically play the QB position at the NFL level, which he can not due to lack of talent or old age, and he serves as a conduit between the coaching staff and the ACTUALLY talented younger QB who needs assistance in understanding what the CS expects of the lad. Also offers a hindsight opinion on what the incumbent starting QB did wrong out on the field and what the Mentor would have done if the CS had ANY faith in him OR, the incumbent was devastatingly injured and there were no more inspiring alternatives left to QB except to play the league-mandated minimum salary roster spot know as the QB Mentor: Ryan Fitzpatrick. 

[Matt39]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

It doesnt exist.  Players play.  Not mentor, teach and develop.  That's what coaches get paid for and why there are 20 on every team for every single position group in addition to coordinators. 

McCown was brought in to be the starter.  Dont get it twisted. 

Even in your example of Rex getting it right bringing in the right type of mentor with Brunell, Sanchez still sucked.  Why?  Because this mentor role doesnt exist.  

It's cute to talk about though.

 

I dont think the Jets have disputed this.

[Gas2No99]

8 minutes ago, JiF said:

It doesnt exist.  Players play.  Not mentor, teach and develop.  That's what coaches get paid for and why there are 20 on every team for every single position group in addition to coordinators. 

McCown was brought in to be the starter.  Dont get it twisted. 

Even in your example of Rex getting it right bringing in the right type of mentor with Brunell, Sanchez still sucked.  Why?  Because this mentor role doesnt exist.  

It's cute to talk about though.

 

Sorry, but I disagree. McCown was brought in to be BEAT by the eventual starter or start if both Petty and Hack get IRed and Someone needs to finish the season out. 

 

 

Hope it don't hurt too much, but I'm a twistin' it! 

[JetFreak89]

I think a mentor QB is brought in to provide guidance on how to handle different situations which arise both inside and outside of the field of play. There is a lot that goes into being a QB that takes place outside of the stadium and I think the Vets are brought in to help in those areas even more so than to talk specific coverages, game plans, etc. 

I agree that Rex and Co. did it better than this current regime but I think that has to do more with who is out there right now. The Jets were lucky that Brunnel was in the stage of his career at that time. Right now all of the older QB's floating around the league just flat out sucked. Nothing you can really do about that.  

[Jet Nut]

It's not that complicated.  He's a go between and a teacher of the daily aspects of being a pro QB.  Nothing about it has to do with how good you were as a player.  Marino wouldnt be a better mentor because he was a better pro than another QB.

The subject was on a show yesterday.  Fitz wasn't a mentor because he spent too much time preparing to start.  A McCown, once he is benched, will dedicate his time to Hack or Petty. 

The idea that you have to be a great player to teach people how to play is never proven anywhere other than fans mind. 

[varjet]

The Jets are in the entertainment business.

STHs buy tickets to go to their games and see them field a competent/competitive team.  The TV Networks pay for the rights to broadcast their games, and companies buy commercials during those broadcasts.

Underlying all of this is the understanding that some teams are rebuilding and do not think it smart to overpay stop gap players just to be mediocre.  Although the Colts and Bucs apparently helped themselves tank, and the Browns (Moneyball) took a relatively aggressive approach in terms of being bad so that they can be one day good, I think the 76ers have really put a light on it.  I can see this issue get more attention going forward, particularly if TV ratings do not improve.

So, IMHO opinion McCown was somewhat of "Unsellable Product" insurance.  If Hack and Petty were our only 2 QBs last year, it would not have ended well.  The Jets needed someone on their roster who can play QB who was not completely offensive, and they overpaid for him.   Geno is a bad apple, Cutler was too expensive and would crowd out the youngsters, Daniels was a possibility.  Brunell was really a Mentor to Sanchez.  In this case McCown wants to make the extra money, but he is not supposed to scream if he does not.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, varjet said:

The Jets are in the entertainment business.

STHs buy tickets to go to their games and see them field a competent/competitive team.  The TV Networks pay for the rights to broadcast their games, and companies buy commercials during those broadcasts.

Underlying all of this is the understanding that some teams are rebuilding and do not think it smart to overpay stop gap players just to be mediocre.  Although the Colts and Bucs apparently helped themselves tank, and the Browns (Moneyball) took a relatively aggressive approach in terms of being bad so that they can be one day good, I think the 76ers have really put a light on it.  I can see this issue get more attention going forward, particularly if TV ratings do not improve.

So, IMHO opinion McCown was somewhat of "Unsellable Product" insurance.  If Hack and Petty were our only 2 QBs last year, it would not have ended well.  The Jets needed someone on their roster who can play QB who was not completely offensive, and they overpaid for him.   Geno is a bad apple, Cutler was too expensive and would crowd out the youngsters, Daniels was a possibility.  Brunell was really a Mentor to Sanchez.  In this case McCown wants to make the extra money, but he is not supposed to scream if he does not.

Solid explanation. I will say that Petty and Hack werent the only 2 QB's last year. The Jets could have also turned to Geno. Also, though it probably wouldnt have ended well if it was just Petty/Hack, it didnt end well when it was Fitz/Geno/Petty/Hack. It also doesnt look good when the guy you bring in as a bridge mentor originally is paid massive money only to be pulled in favor of the guys he's supposed to be mentoring. 

 

Last year was pretty damn bad. 

[Gas2No99]

3 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Solid explanation. I will say that Petty and Hack werent the only 2 QB's last year. The Jets could have also turned to Geno. Also, though it probably wouldnt have ended well if it was just Petty/Hack, it didnt end well when it was Fitz/Geno/Petty/Hack. It also doesnt look good when the guy you bring in as a bridge mentor originally is paid massive money only to be pulled in favor of the guys he's supposed to be mentoring. 

 

Last year was pretty damn bad. 

They did. and the DOPE got himself injured by holding the ball too long and running BACK INTO the pass rush he had just bootlegged out from. 

 

[The Crusher]

Because they are little refreshing mints you can keep in your pocket and pop quickly into your mouth for a burst of peppermint delight. 

[Villain The Foe]

8 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

It's not that complicated.  He's a go between and a teacher of the daily aspects of being a pro QB.  Nothing about it has to do with how good you were as a player.  Marino wouldnt be a better mentor because he was a better pro than another QB.

The subject was on a show yesterday.  Fitz wasn't a mentor because he spent too much time preparing to start.  A McCown, once he is benched, will dedicate his time to Hack or Petty. 

The idea that you have to be a great player to teach people how to play is never proven anywhere other than fans mind. 

The thought of a mentor isnt complicated at all. However, do you need to pay a QB for this job? You're telling me none of the coaches that the QB deals with can do this? 

Once perspective would suggest, "yeah, you could...but its different as a coach and as a player who can go and and show via example", until you realize that these guys are poor examples of successful quarterbacks. 

So again, what is the purpose of this mentor title outside of it being nothing more than damage control? 

There are so many people talking about this mentorship but arent giving examples on what it brings. Why do these guys need the daily aspects of being a pro QB? Every QB learns that once they become a pro. Not every QB turning pro needed another veteran QB to learn this. Its a lame excuse. 

[Jet Blast]

I don't think the physical attributes and abilities necessarily translate into a good mentor. I believe the mental part is more important and a mentor should be the following (not in any particular order):

A high character guy

A good teacher

Experienced veteran (has "seen it all")

Smart

Able to play in a pinch

 

[Matt39]

Just now, Jet Blast said:

I don't think the physical attributes and abilities necessarily translate into a good mentor. I believe the mental part is more important and a mentor should be the following (not in any particular order):

A high character guy

A good teacher

Experienced veteran (have "seen it all")

Smart

Able to play in a pinch

 

Pretty much. Also consider the current Jets QB situation is a mess...so bringing in a Mccown vs a Cutler at least makes some sense...

 

[Gas2No99]

2 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

The thought of a mentor isnt complicated at all. However, do you need to pay a QB for this job? You're telling me none of the coaches that the QB deals with can do this? 

Once perspective would suggest, "yeah, you could...but its different as a coach and as a player who can go and and show via example", until you realize that these guys are poor examples of successful quarterbacks. 

So again, what is the purpose of this mentor title outside of it being nothing more than damage control? 

There are so many people talking about this mentorship but arent giving examples on what it brings. Why do these guys need the daily aspects of being a pro QB? Every QB learns that once they become a pro. Not every QB turning pro needed another veteran QB to learn this. Its a lame excuse. 

You have the answer to the question covered in 2-3 posts, it's whether YOU choose to accept it as sufficient.

The NFL does, you clearly don't. Stop beating a dead horse. 

[Villain The Foe]

2 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

They did. and the DOPE got himself injured by holding the ball too long and running BACK INTO the pass rush he had just bootlegged out from. 

Actually he didnt run into the pass rush, he simply held the ball too long and the pass rush that he got away from caught up. But that's neither here nor there. 

 

The point was they didnt go to him given that they paid Fitz to be a 12 million dollar starter. Im not here to argue Geno Smith and Fitz specifically. Im here to argue about this title called being a mentor. 

 

@Jet Nut mentioned how these guys can learn the daily aspects of being a pro QB. Well, didnt Petty get two years of that from Fitz along with Hackenberg getting one year? If it really has nothing to do with their "ability" as he stated then shouldnt two years of being mentored on daily aspects be enough for Petty to see the field in his 3rd year? 

 

Something is off here imo. 

[kelticwizard]

Villian has a good point.  While a mentor doesn't have to be a superstar during his glory days, his ability to help a young QB requires him to have been an effective QB himself earlier in his career.  Fitz was Fitz, and McCown was the guy the Dolphins cut immediately as soon as Chad Pennington became available during the Favre year.  Immediately.  Which means they were basically sick of McCown already, even though he was brought on to be a "mentor" to Chad Henne and were looking for some excuse to unload him.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Gas2No99 said:

You have the answer to the question covered in 2-3 posts, it's whether YOU choose to accept it as sufficient.

The NFL does, you clearly don't. Stop beating a dead horse. 

Are you here in the thread? You can move on if the horse is dead to you. Since you found the need to thumb down and all, I figure that what you just wrote you dont really mean. lol. 

[Big Blocker]

7 minutes ago, Gas2No99 said:

They did. and the DOPE got himself injured by holding the ball too long and running BACK INTO the pass rush he had just bootlegged out from. 

 

Since I share the OP's skepticism about this whole bs mentoring thing, I was going to read his post and hope he would get through it without his never ending pro-Smith nonsense.

Sadly he could not do that.

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, kelticwizard said:

Villian has a good point.  While a mentor doesn't have to be a superstar during his glory days, his ability to help a young QB requires him to have been an effective QB himself in his early days.  Fitz was Fitz, and McCown was the guy the Dolphins cut immediately as soon as Chad Pennington became available during the Favre year.  Immediately.  Which means they were basically sick of McCown already, even though he was brought on to be a "mentor" to Chad Henne and were looking for some excuse to unload him.

Thanks. Also, didnt FItz do this job for 2 years? What is it that they're mentoring that requires this length of time? 

Maybe getting reps and being available to play will help these guys. Starting your career the #4 QB on the team is just ridiculous, but to have that followed up by being the #3 because of Josh McCown? Inexcusable. 

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Big Blocker said:

Since I share the OP's skepticism about this whole bs mentoring thing, I was going to read his post and hope he would get through it without his never ending pro-Smith nonsense.

Sadly he could not do that.

Where was I pro smith? Quote me, I'd like to see it. 

[Gas2No99]

1 minute ago, Villain The Foe said:

Are you here in the thread? You can move on if the horse is dead to you. 

 

 

I'm stuck in it. The horse is dead but you're trying to make gabagool with it and feed the forum with a redundant thread regarding YOUR REFUSAL to accept an NFL normality 

[Villain The Foe]

Just now, Gas2No99 said:

 

 

I'm stuck in it. The horse is dead but you're trying to make gabagool with it and feed the forum with a redundant thread regarding YOUR REFUSAL to accept an NFL normality 

Move on bro. Be an adult. 

[peebag]

Not sure, but I do know what a Mentos guy is...

[Matt39]

Just now, Gas2No99 said:

 

 

I'm stuck in it. The horse is dead but you're trying to make gabagool with it and feed the forum with a redundant thread regarding YOUR REFUSAL to accept an NFL normality 

Geno's currently on a vet minimum contract that's tied with playing incentives on a team whose starting QB has never missed a game. So that should put most of whatever he's hinting at to bed.

[Villain The Foe]

5 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Geno's currently on a vet minimum contract that's tied with playing incentives on a team whose starting QB has never missed a game. So that should put most of whatever he's hinting at to bed.

Im hinting at bad vet QB's being mentors going on 3 years. And I say bad because its going on year 3 it seems like the GM isnt secure enough to risk putting any of these guys on the field without having yet another mentor/starter to fall back on, and he's willing to pay 6 million for it. 

 

Is it the player or the mentor? Maybe its the lack of not getting reps and providing the necessary talent FOR these young players such as an Oline so these guys wont end up on IR every week, which imo is important here. This has nothing to do with what you said above. 

 

[Big Blocker]

In any event...

A mentor as a concept is not that difficult.  It is a tutor, or a coach. Yes it can be someone who simultaneously is working in your line of business or any other form of endeavor.  But it is clearly something more than leading by example.  Leading by example can be a part of the process, but without the specific communication of suggestions or information, you are not talking about a mentor.

Hiring someone to perform a job with the primary purpose being to really tutor someone is what a coach is.  Having the job in question be something else, and expect the person hired to be primarily tutoring someone, is ass backwards.  If you want to hire a coach, hire a coach and pay him accordingly.

The OP is right to say that people talking up McCown from the mentoring standpoint are really motivated by an effort to lend support to a hire that on the merits of his play is not justified.  And more to the point, it implies that the CS as presently constituted is likely to be ineffective, by themselves, at handing the job of getting Petty and Hack ready.

Finally on the leading by example thing, how is McCown even able to do that when he's not been good over his career?  What is he going to show Petty and Hack that is otherwise not present on the Jets?

It doesn't add up.

[Villain The Foe]

1 minute ago, Big Blocker said:

In any event...

Exactly...and thank you for dealing with the topic. 

[dbatesman]

7 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Geno's currently on a vet minimum contract that's tied with playing incentives on a team whose starting QB has never missed a game. So that should put most of whatever he's hinting at to bed.

He was brought in to mentor Eli

[peekskill68]

A good mentor is always there to stand by their protege...

 

 

 

[JustInFudge]

46 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

I dont think the Jets have disputed this.

The Jets havent but JN has.

[#27TheDominator]

22 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Because they are little refreshing mints you can keep in your pocket and pop quickly into your mouth for a burst of peppermint delight. 

The freshmaker!

9 minutes ago, Villain The Foe said:

Im hinting at bad vet QB's being mentors going on 3 years. 

I get that you don't like Fitzpatrick, but he was never a mentor.  He was the starting QB.  I think they like to have a vet in to lead the practices, show them how it is done in the film room and meetings.  Generally set an example.  I think it is more about approach than anything else.  Something Petty, Hackenberg and even Geno were not going to do. That does not make a player a good QB, but you can't be a truly good QB without properly handling those issues.  I tend to think McCown is overpriced for that role and they probably will expect him to start, but I don't have a problem with the general mentor idea.