Bowles is the biggest part of the problem, not the solution.

[UnitedWhofans]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

LOL.  I can only assume you've been a Jet fan for like 20 minutes.

15 years. Examples?

In fact, I will supply you with one. Why did Woody fire Tanny and not Rex, when the fans wanted Rex gone too?

The answer: Because Woody was smitten with Rex Ryan, Not in a lovey dovey way, but by his persona and bravado. Same reason why the Pegulas hired him in Buffalo. Only without the AFC champ bids in his first few years and past experience from the Jets, that act in Buffalo fell through quicker

[RutgersJetFan]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

15 years. Examples?

You're 19 years old.

[Jetdawgg]

36 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I never said they were better. I said they were the same

The Jets are worse at the QB position this season. Any reasonable person would see that. Smith is better than any QB here now

[ZachEY]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

15 years. Examples?

Rex Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Metlife Stadium, We Want Sapp, Chad Pennington, do I need to go on?

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

You're 19 years old.

Is this true?

[Jetdawgg]

37 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

I'm not he has failed on 3 out of 4 picks in the 1st two rounds since he came here.  I've said repeatedly if he does not totally nail this draft he should be gone.  He is handicapped though by a system coach who has no clue on how to use players that do not fit nicely in his 'hybrid' scheme.

All GMs should control who the coach is so they can effectively be on the same page when building a team.

I think differently. The Jets have a workable system here. You can't run a team with just Yes Men

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Rex Ryan, Mark Sanchez, Metlife Stadium, We Want Sapp, Chad Pennington, do I need to go on?

Sapp was pre Woody Johnson.

Rex, I just gave you.

Don't know what you mean when you say Mark Sanchez, Metlife Stadium(Although I can guess what it is and say that once the Riverside Stadium was denied, he had no choice) and Chad Pennington

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Is this true?

Not even close

[RutgersJetFan]

Just now, gEYno said:

Is this true?

I mean yeah. And even if I'm a few years off it doesn't really matter considering the dude is clearly Brendan Dassey.

 

[C Mart]

2 hours ago, Scott Dierking said:

Biggest mistake was not going with Marrone. It seemed like they had him in their pocket, and now he and Coughlin will do big things in Jacksonville. Just watch

 

He had the connection to Mccagnan too. Woody caved to the Daily News smear campaign.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, C Mart said:

He had the connection to Mccagnan too. Woody caved to the Daily News smear campaign.

I should add that it is not the fans alone in the synergy of idiocy, it's the media too.

[C Mart]

2 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

And why didn't they go with him? Because a pissy hack reporter wrote a vengeful article that got people worried and thus worried the owner. 

Because it was still causing a firestorm/circus and after Rex/Idzik that was the last thing the Jets needed.  

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, C Mart said:

Because it was still causing a firestorm/circus and after Rex/Idzik that was the last thing the Jets needed.  

The triumvirate of idiocy. Independently, each is harmless, but when combined leads to bad things.

-A fanbase that wants instant gratification and quick fixes.

-A media thirsting for clicks and stoking fires

-An owner who wants to be on the back pages and wants to placate fans so that they can buy PSLs.

The first two parts are more common. The third part is the key. However, because of Woody going to Britain, it might be that this triumvirate may crack a bit. Being outside the cauldron is better than being inside.

 

[ZachEY]

10 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Sapp was pre Woody Johnson.

Rex, I just gave you.

Don't know what you mean when you say Mark Sanchez, Metlife Stadium(Although I can guess what it is and say that once the Riverside Stadium was denied, he had no choice) and Chad Pennington

Sanchez - plenty of fans did not want him drafted, then most fans were horrified by his extension when fans generally wanted him gone, then he remained even beyond that.

Stadium - Fans wanted the WSS first and foremost, but beyond that, the fans did not want to share a stadium with the Giants at all.  There's literally one fan on this website who is verbal about being pro-MetLife.

Chad Pennington - Fans wanted him gone long before he was.

10 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Not even close

Things would make a lot more sense had that been the case.

[HighPitch]

16 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

I think differently. The Jets have a workable system here. You can't run a team with just Yes Men

Again

[ZachEY]

5 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

-A fanbase that wants instant gratification and quick fixes.

Except, this isn't even true.  Plenty of fans wanted us to "Suck for Luck" and are now screaming about "Fold for Darnold."

Fans have wanted the rebuild forever.  The problem is that the team has done a bad job of it.  The "competitive rebuild" was irrelevant and it changed nothing.  Macc has drafted poorly, that's a fact, and that fact isn't affected by signing Darrelle Revis or Ryan Fitzpatrick.  Macc also continues to make questionable FA decisions.  

You're holding it against fans who saw what a disaster Idzik's drafts were before you did.  The fact is, you were just late to the party.  Those same fans see that Macc is doing a bad job too, you're simply late to the party again.

[Ex-Rex]

4 hours ago, DonCorleone said:

Is coach Todd Bowles worried about his team's alleged issue with tardiness?

"It's part of it," Bowles said at the NFL owners meeting on Tuesday. "Sometimes you're late to work. It's life. It's not life threatening ... Sometimes your alarm clock isn't going to go off."

Bowles should know better than to sluff off the answer to that question. I don't think he has all the intangibles to be a successful NFL head coach. He - like Rex Ryan - is better served behind a solid HC as DC and nothing higher.

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Sanchez - plenty of fans did not want him drafted, then most fans were horrified by his extension when fans generally wanted him gone, then he remained even beyond that.

Stadium - Fans wanted the WSS first and foremost, but beyond that, the fans did not want to share a stadium with the Giants at all.  There's literally one fan on this website who is verbal about being pro-MetLife.

Chad Pennington - Fans wanted him gone long before he was.

Things would make a lot more sense had that been the case.

Ok. Couple of things about Mark Sanchez.

1. I remember that Music Hall when Sanchez was drafted and the Jets traded up. Except for those two guys shaking their heads, I heard mostly cheers and happiness. So I think the fanbase at worst was evenly divided on drafting him. Remember Twitter was in its infancy so we had no way to monitor that. Especially when they saw what the deal was with Cleveland to trade up; essentially dryer lint.

2. The interesting thing about that extension was that it came basically out of nowhere. There didn't seem to be any rumor that it was happening, if I recall. So there was nothing really for Woody or the organization to judge the reaction by. That's the closest of all the examples you made of Woody acting against the fans truly without outside influence.

The stadium, as I said before, was, I think, a last resort after the WSS fell through with the city. I don't think he had a choice.

I don't know exactly when fans wanted Chad Pennington gone, especially since they made the playoffs with him in 2002, 2004, and 2006; and he left after the 2007 season. My best guess is that they wanted him gone after the 2006 season because he was bad in that playoff game against NE, but I don't really know.

[Maxman]

29 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I mean yeah. And even if I'm a few years off it doesn't really matter considering the dude is clearly Brendan Dassey.

 

Hey I didn't know who that guy was but I looked him up. Please refrain from calling people murderers on the board.

[UnitedWhofans]

6 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Except, this isn't even true.  Plenty of fans wanted us to "Suck for Luck" and are now screaming about "Fold for Darnold."

Fans have wanted the rebuild forever.  The problem is that the team has done a bad job of it.  The "competitive rebuild" was irrelevant and it changed nothing.  Macc has drafted poorly, that's a fact, and that fact isn't affected by signing Darrelle Revis or Ryan Fitzpatrick.  Macc also continues to make questionable FA decisions.  

You're holding it against fans who saw what a disaster Idzik's drafts were before you did.  The fact is, you were just late to the party.  Those same fans see that Macc is doing a bad job too, you're simply late to the party again.

It's not a matter of being late to the party. It's a matter of letting the process play itself out. It's the fair and just way of doing things. 

I disagree that Macc has drafted poorly. Idzik drafted poorly. Macc has been a better drafter than Idzik, and that is painfully obvious. Macc has missed some top picks (one by injury, one by stupidity) but he has made up for it with mid to lower round picks that show potential. That is where the difference between Macc and Idzik lies.

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Ok. Couple of things about Mark Sanchez.

1. I remember that Music Hall when Sanchez was drafted and the Jets traded up. Except for those two guys shaking their heads, I heard mostly cheers and happiness. So I think the fanbase at worst was evenly divided on drafting him. Remember Twitter was in its infancy so we had no way to monitor that. Especially when they saw what the deal was with Cleveland to trade up; essentially dryer lint.

2. The interesting thing about that extension was that it came basically out of nowhere. There didn't seem to be any rumor that it was happening, if I recall. So there was nothing really for Woody or the organization to judge the reaction by. That's the closest of all the examples you made of Woody acting against the fans truly without outside influence.

The stadium, as I said before, was, I think, a last resort after the WSS fell through with the city. I don't think he had a choice.

I don't know exactly when fans wanted Chad Pennington gone, especially since they made the playoffs with him in 2002, 2004, and 2006; and he left after the 2007 season. My best guess is that they wanted him gone after the 2006 season because he was bad in that playoff game against NE, but I don't really know.

So, to be clear... When it suits your thesis, it's the fans fault.  When it doesn't, there's another explanation.

[ZachEY]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

It's not a matter of being late to the party. It's a matter of letting the process play itself out. It's the fair and just way of doing things. 

I disagree that Macc has drafted poorly. Idzik drafted poorly. Macc has been a better drafter than Idzik, and that is painfully obvious. Macc has missed some top picks (one by injury, one by stupidity) but he has made up for it with mid to lower round picks that show potential. That is where the difference between Macc and Idzik lies.

Letting it play out is for management, if they believe success might be coming, not for the fans, who saw the problem and stated it, despite you not seeing it, or stating it.

Yes, you disagree now re: Macc, and that's why you're late to the party.  And you're overvaluing the Charone Peake's of the world to help you make your point.  Macc has had this job for 2 years now, and we are currently one of the least talented teams in the league.  Macc's crowning accomplishment is the best player in the draft falling to him, and there is no second place.  No "competitive rebuild" mandate can account for that, just a poor job by the GM.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

So, to be clear... When it suits your thesis, it's the fans fault.  When it doesn't, there's another explanation.

Well, I disagree with you about Sanchez's selection going against the fans wishes.

I think, however, you're right on the extension. That might be one he did independently.

The stadium, unless there were plans for another stadium that I didn't hear about, feels like he had no choice.

Pennington, given the facts that I mentioned and the fact that there was no Twitter back then, means that neither of us can prove it,

 

[Beerfish]

36 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

I think differently. The Jets have a workable system here. You can't run a team with just Yes Men

Eh?  What do you mean?

The coach has zero accountability to the Gm and the Gm has zero accountability to the coach they both report to the owner and could do so separately.  As it is now Mac is a glorified scout.

Look at our three linebacker draft picks over the last two years.

Lee is best suited to be a 3-4 ilb, Jenkins and maudlin are 3-4 olbs.  Mac is drafting for a primarily 3-4 team.  now all of a sudden we are a part time 4-3 part time 3-4.  We are playing a DT/De in Richardson at frigin linebacker.

There is a disconnect.  If we play ore 4-3 this year if we keep shel rich then Lee is in a spot not suited to him and so are the other two LBs.

 

[Jetdawgg]

23 minutes ago, HighPitch said:

Again

A system can work where the HC and the GM both report to the owner. The Jets may not have the right people.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Letting it play out is for management, if they believe success might be coming, not for the fans, who saw the problem and stated it, despite you not seeing it, or stating it.

Yes, you disagree now re: Macc, and that's why you're late to the party.  And you're overvaluing the Charone Peake's of the world to help you make your point.  Macc has had this job for 2 years now, and we are currently one of the least talented teams in the league.  Macc's crowning accomplishment is the best player in the draft falling to him, and there is no second place.  No "competitive rebuild" mandate can account for that, just a poor job by the GM.

Well maybe if fans put themselves in management's shoes and thought about it, we might have more unity.

Yes the Chris Hogans of the world definitely are overvalued. Those are the type of players the Patriots love and value.

[ZachEY]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Well, I disagree with you about Sanchez's selection going against the fans wishes.

I think, however, you're right on the extension. That might be one he did independently.

The stadium, unless there were plans for another stadium that I didn't hear about, feels like he had no choice.

Pennington, given the facts that I mentioned and the fact that there was no Twitter back then, means that neither of us can prove it,

 

It doesn't matter if there were plans... Woody Johnson, as the owner, could move the team anywhere, you've even called for that.  Fans wanted Manhattan, but also Queens or Long Island.  Woody could have done either, or he could have done Kabul.  Instead, he stayed in the unpopular option.

There was JetNation and others sites back then.  You just didn't post there.  Your lack of awareness of the fans opinions is not an adequate reason to dismiss what was universally known.  Did you hear the eruption when Kellen Clemen's stepped onto the field?  That should tell you all you need to know.

[shevys]

33 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

The triumvirate of idiocy. Independently, each is harmless, but when combined leads to bad things.

-A fanbase that wants instant gratification and quick fixes.

-A media thirsting for clicks and stoking fires

-An owner who wants to be on the back pages and wants to placate fans so that they can buy PSLs.

The first two parts are more common. The third part is the key. However, because of Woody going to Britain, it might be that this triumvirate may crack a bit. Being outside the cauldron is better than being inside.

 

How many times must you be told that waiting 47+ years for a championship is NOT wanting instant gratification and a quick fix. 

[ZachEY]

3 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Well maybe if fans put themselves in management's shoes and thought about it, we might have more unity.

Yes the Chris Hogans of the world definitely are overvalued. Those are the type of players the Patriots love and value.

Chris Hogan makes Tom Brady, not the other way around, obviously.

Curious though, why do all these players leave the Pats and suddenly fall into obscurity?

And when did "unity" become the goal?

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, shevys said:

How many times must you be told that waiting 47+ years for a championship is NOT wanting instant gratification and a quick fix. 

Actually this is the first time I've been told that.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

It doesn't matter if there were plans... Woody Johnson, as the owner, could move the team anywhere, you've even called for that.  Fans wanted Manhattan, but also Queens or Long Island.  Woody could have done either, or he could have done Kabul.  Instead, he stayed in the unpopular option.

There was JetNation and others sites back then.  You just didn't post there.  Your lack of awareness of the fans opinions is not an adequate reason to dismiss what was universally known.  Did you hear the eruption when Kellen Clemen's stepped onto the field?  That should tell you all you need to know.

I've always thought Long Island would be nice, but I have a feeling that the traffic problems that would create (in the mid to late 2000s) combined with the Islanders sinking took that option away. 

In any case, those moves,do take time to set up, and I don't know if he had that time, or what his deal was with the original Giants Stadium.

As for Kellen Clemens, you may have very well proved my point. Fans want Pennington gone after 2006 so they draft Clemens to take his place. What happens? Pennington wins comeback player of the year again and then gets hurt in 2007 when he was finally released.

So in essence, drafting Clemens (although I don't think it was done on purpose, but you never know) was the placation.

[UnitedWhofans]

8 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Chris Hogan makes Tom Brady, not the other way around, obviously.

Curious though, why do all these players leave the Pats and suddenly fall into obscurity?

It's not just the Pats. Look at Seattle. Their Legion of Boom, outside of Earl Thomas, were mid round picks. Wilson, 3rd round pick. Their receiving corps, mid round picks. (Except Graham whom they traded for)

[Jetdawgg]

11 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Eh?  What do you mean?

The coach has zero accountability to the Gm and the Gm has zero accountability to the coach they both report to the owner and could do so separately.  As it is now Mac is a glorified scout.

Look at our three linebacker draft picks over the last two years.

Lee is best suited to be a 3-4 ilb, Jenkins and maudlin are 3-4 olbs.  Mac is drafting for a primarily 3-4 team.  now all of a sudden we are a part time 4-3 part time 3-4.  We are playing a DT/De in Richardson at frigin linebacker.

There is a disconnect.  If we play ore 4-3 this year if we keep shel rich then Lee is in a spot not suited to him and so are the other two LBs.

 

That is a communications issue. That issue is different than reporting. All of the Sciuts, the GM and at least the HC and his O and D Coordinators should be meeting after the season to see where productivity needs to increase and what is available in the Draft and FA/UDFA market places.

Macc has been signing dead end FA's at high prices and as you noted drafting players that cannot make a good fit for the team. If a GM is to draft Williams and already have good players (Pro Bowlers) at that position then he needed to make another move via trade. 

That did not occur. Then he added another DT to further irritate the problem. All of this gets blamed on Bowles, but even Lombardi would have issues coaching this team. Roster management is clearly on the GM. He appears to have drafted and signed players in a silo. 

 

[UnitedWhofans]

BTW, and I'm going off topic here,

Kellen Clemens (2nd round pick) in 2006 played in 2 games, threw one pass, and ran twice for 10 yards.

Christian Hackenberg (2nd round pick) did not get into a game. 

Not much difference, is there? And yet, I wonder if people bitched about Clemens as much as Hackenberg.

The circumstances were of course different, but the principle of a 2nd round QB being put into action seems a bit vapid there.

[ZachEY]

14 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I've always thought Long Island would be nice, but I have a feeling that the traffic problems that would create (in the mid to late 2000s) combined with the Islanders sinking took that option away. 

In any case, those moves,do take time to set up, and I don't know if he had that time, or what his deal was with the original Giants Stadium.

As for Kellen Clemens, you may have very well proved my point. Fans want Pennington gone after 2006 so they draft Clemens to take his place. What happens? Pennington wins comeback player of the year again and then gets hurt in 2007 when he was finally released.

So in essence, drafting Clemens (although I don't think it was done on purpose, but you never know) was the placation.

Comeback Player of The Year is not an award that merits celebration.