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Back To The Future: What If Hackenberg Is Actually Good?

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6 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

So based on all your stats, odds, facts , history it will be a miracle if Hack makes it as a quality QB.  That's a rather bold statement to make based on someone who has yet to get quality reps for an NFL team. Sure, its more likely he'll fail than he won't - there's only 32 starting NFL QB's in the world and even some of those would be labeled failures by most here. But to say it will be a miracle if he pans out just screams of Jet negiatisim regardless of the odds.

The dude sucked in college and has done nothing to give anyone a reason to think anything changed. If typical "Jet negativism" is just stating a fact, then I suppose it is. Question, did you think Taj Boyd was 50/50 to be a franchise QB?

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1 hour ago, gEYno said:

The dude sucked in college and has done nothing to give anyone a reason to think anything changed. If typical "Jet negativism" is just stating a fact, then I suppose it is. Question, did you think Taj Boyd was 50/50 to be a franchise QB?

Taj Boyd wasn't a top rated QB out of HS . Taj Boyd doesn't have the measurables that Hack has . Jet fans like you would have given up on Joe Montana, on Troy Aikman on Eli Manning because OMG they didn't light it up immediately when entering the NFL. Most here are so sure Hack is a bust they won't even look past the fact that he hasn't been given a chance yet. I'm not saying Hack will develop , I'm just saying its ludicrous to be so sure he will bust without given an adequate opportunity. But OMG some disgruntled Jet employee or writer said Hack couldn't hit the ocean - so that's what we should all believe. 

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9 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Taj Boyd wasn't a top rated QB out of HS . Taj Boyd doesn't have the measurables that Hack has . Jet fans like you would have given up on Joe Montana, on Troy Aikman on Eli Manning because OMG they didn't light it up immediately when entering the NFL. Most here are so sure Hack is a bust they won't even look past the fact that he hasn't been given a chance yet. I'm not saying Hack will develop , I'm just saying its ludicrous to be so sure he will bust without given an adequate opportunity. But OMG some disgruntled Jet employee or writer said Hack couldn't hit the ocean - so that's what we should all believe. 

Boyd was a 4 star recruit and the 4th ranked QB (rivals.com), so either you don't consider #4 to be "top rated" or you just made that up.  Hackenberg does have better measurables, but Boyd has a far superior college career.  Boyd won an ACC Championship, named ACC player of the year, AFCA 1st team all-american, bowl game MVP, and beat OSU in the Orange Bowl, and holds multiple school and conference records.  Hackenberg was named Big 10 Freshman of the Year, and literally got worse and did nothing since then.

The argument you make about pro-QBs who didn't develop quickly was not something mentioned by "Jets fans like me."  In fact, it's a straw-man argument you've created to defend the hapless argument you're pushing.  First and foremost, Joe Montana was a good QB in college.  Troy Aikman was a good QB in college.  Eli Manning was a good QB in college.  Christian Hackenberg was a bad QB in college.  Also, it's great that you can name 3 QBs who started slowly and went on to be super-stars.  How many can you name that started slowly and finished slowly?  Probably more, I'd imagine.

The second flaw in this logic is that no one is saying that the reason Hackenberg is likely to fail is solely predicated on that quote, or the fact that he didn't play last year.  Rather, 'Jets fans like me' aren't willing to hit the reset button back to 2012 (maybe 2013 if you think his Freshman year was truly good, and not the product of Allen Robinson) in our assessment of a player simply because the Jets drafted him.  The irony is that 'Jets fans like me' would have the same opinion of Hackenberg if he were a Dolphin, Bill, or a Patriot as we do of him as a Jet.  "Jets fans like you" would fall in line with "Jets fans like me" if he were a Dolphin, Bill, or Patriot, laughing at the novella of excuses that need to be made and accepted to suggest that Hackenberg might actually be good.

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3 hours ago, gEYno said:

Boyd was a 4 star recruit and the 4th ranked QB (rivals.com), so either you don't consider #4 to be "top rated" or you just made that up.  Hackenberg does have better measurables, but Boyd has a far superior college career.  Boyd won an ACC Championship, named ACC player of the year, AFCA 1st team all-american, bowl game MVP, and beat OSU in the Orange Bowl, and holds multiple school and conference records.  Hackenberg was named Big 10 Freshman of the Year, and literally got worse and did nothing since then.

Remember, these facts don't apply. He was drafted by an NFL team so there's a chance! Believing in the overwhelming likelihood that a guy who couldn't perform at a lower level will continue to perform lowly is crazy talk. 

I also was a fan of "he hasn't had quality reps" which is a really special way of thinking. He's not good enough to get reps and is kept from playing because his coaches don't believe he could handle it is obviously why we can't say that he will be bad!

Every guy who was drafted and never played a snap in the NFL could be a superstar! We just don't know!

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One of Hack's big positives was that O'Brien ran a pro offense at Penn State.  Hack wouldn't need to learn to take a  snap and follow progressions like all these other guys. Can somebody please explain to me why that means he needs a red-shirt year more than a guy like Petty? 

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12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

One of Hack's big positives was that O'Brien ran a pro offense at Penn State.  Hack wouldn't need to learn to take a  snap and follow progressions like all these other guys. Can somebody please explain to me why that means he needs a red-shirt year more than a guy like Petty? 

He needed the redshirt year to un-shell shock himself from insane amount of sacks/pressure he was subjected to the past 2 seasons at Penn State.  He also needed to re-learn his mechanics as Franklin changed his drops, footwork etc all after his freshman year. Lastly, he needed to come into 2017 without having his confidence destroyed as a rookie.

Maybe he gets his confidence destroyed in his second season and maybe his mechanics never get fixed.  But Mac's plan was to ensure he didnt turn into David Carr 2.0 and wanted Hack to have enough time to break the bad habit he developed of dropping his eyes to look at the rush rather then keep them down the field.  Him not playing in 2016 had little to do with the other guys outplaying him - it was strictly to get him as fresh of a slate as possible for his future development

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4 hours ago, gEYno said:

Boyd was a 4 star recruit and the 4th ranked QB (rivals.com), so either you don't consider #4 to be "top rated" or you just made that up.  Hackenberg does have better measurables, but Boyd has a far superior college career.  Boyd won an ACC Championship, named ACC player of the year, AFCA 1st team all-american, bowl game MVP, and beat OSU in the Orange Bowl, and holds multiple school and conference records.  Hackenberg was named Big 10 Freshman of the Year, and literally got worse and did nothing since then.

The argument you make about pro-QBs who didn't develop quickly was not something mentioned by "Jets fans like me."  In fact, it's a straw-man argument you've created to defend the hapless argument you're pushing.  First and foremost, Joe Montana was a good QB in college.  Troy Aikman was a good QB in college.  Eli Manning was a good QB in college.  Christian Hackenberg was a bad QB in college.  Also, it's great that you can name 3 QBs who started slowly and went on to be super-stars.  How many can you name that started slowly and finished slowly?  Probably more, I'd imagine.

The second flaw in this logic is that no one is saying that the reason Hackenberg is likely to fail is solely predicated on that quote, or the fact that he didn't play last year.  Rather, 'Jets fans like me' aren't willing to hit the reset button back to 2012 (maybe 2013 if you think his Freshman year was truly good, and not the product of Allen Robinson) in our assessment of a player simply because the Jets drafted him.  The irony is that 'Jets fans like me' would have the same opinion of Hackenberg if he were a Dolphin, Bill, or a Patriot as we do of him as a Jet.  "Jets fans like you" would fall in line with "Jets fans like me" if he were a Dolphin, Bill, or Patriot, laughing at the novella of excuses that need to be made and accepted to suggest that Hackenberg might actually be good.

Seriously, were you living under a rock during those years. Do you remember the mass exodus of players and a HC after Hack's Freshman year due to the Sandusky situation.

Bottom line I don't care if a QB was good or bad in college as long as he has the potential to grow into a good pro QB. There are so many factors , like team makeup , coaching , systems that its virtually a crap shoot in projecting whether a QB will succeed based on his college career. For every anomaly like a Luck or PManning  there are literally hundreds of Qb's with stellar college careers that never even sniff the pros.  My point about QB's starting  slowly really pertains to the QB getting a chance in a setting that is ripe for success. Most highly ranked QB's are drafted onto bad teams or into situations where they're not ready yet.  Its feasible that Hack may fit that category. He has the physical tools, the mentality and the smarts to play the position , the big question is can he develop in the 2017 version of the Jets.

Sure its easy to downplay players on other teams, we don't follow them like we do the Jets. If Hack was on the Dolphins I wouldn't care it he wasn't given a shot to prove himself and quite frankly I wouldn't know if he did or didn't  as I don't follow Dolphins TC's OTA's, practices  etc  like I would with the Jets.

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Seriously, were you living under a rock during those years. Do you remember the mass exodus of players and a HC after Hack's Freshman year due to the Sandusky situation.

Bottom line I don't care if a QB was good or bad in college as long as he has the potential to grow into a good pro QB. There are so many factors , like team makeup , coaching , systems that its virtually a crap shoot in projecting whether a QB will succeed based on his college career. For every anomaly like a Luck or PManning  there are literally hundreds of Qb's with stellar college careers that never even sniff the pros.  My point about QB's starting  slowly really pertains to the QB getting a chance in a setting that is ripe for success. Most highly ranked QB's are drafted onto bad teams or into situations where they're not ready yet.  Its feasible that Hack may fit that category. He has the physical tools, the mentality and the smarts to play the position , the big question is can he develop in the 2017 version of the Jets.

Sure its easy to downplay players on other teams, we don't follow them like we do the Jets. If Hack was on the Dolphins I wouldn't care it he wasn't given a shot to prove himself and quite frankly I wouldn't know if he did or didn't  as I don't follow Dolphins TC's OTA's, practices  etc  like I would with the Jets.

Well, I suppose the bolded says it all.

But, just to kind of sum up, we agree, there are literally hundreds of good college QBs who don't succeed in the pros.  The question is how many awful college QBs succeed in the pros?  Where is that historical precedent?

In all likelihood, you're looking at another Stephen Hill, a guy who based on his measurables, should be a good football player.  Yet, he underperformed in college and could never get it together in the pros.  Stephen Hill's poor hands is Hackenberg's inaccuracy.  

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13 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Well, I suppose the bolded says it all.

But, just to kind of sum up, we agree, there are literally hundreds of good college QBs who don't succeed in the pros.  The question is how many awful college QBs succeed in the pros?  Where is that historical precedent?

In all likelihood, you're looking at another Stephen Hill, a guy who based on his measurables, should be a good football player.  Yet, he underperformed in college and could never get it together in the pros.  Stephen Hill's poor hands is Hackenberg's inaccuracy.  

Wow interpolation at its finest. The Jets drafted an under performing college wr once who failed so the under performing QB they drafted will also fail.

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14 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Wow interpolation at its finest. The Jets drafted an under performing college wr once who failed so the under performing QB they drafted will also fail.

Well, yes, most bad college players continue to be bad.  Stephen Hill is just a recent, palpable, example of the point... Even more so when you consider that both of these players have a significant limitation in their game that history doesn't have great precedent of working itself out in the pros.

I'm eagerly awaiting your list of poor college QBs who went on to be good though... Eagerly.

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4 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Well, yes, most bad college players continue to be bad.  Stephen Hill is just a recent, palpable, example of the point... Even more so when you consider that both of these players have a significant limitation in their game that history doesn't have great precedent of working itself out in the pros.

I'm eagerly awaiting your list of poor college QBs who went on to be good though... Eagerly.

Tom Brady, Warren Moon, Roger Staubach, Joe Flacco, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo . Is that list ok for you .

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1 hour ago, 56mehl56 said:

Tom Brady, Warren Moon, Roger Staubach, Joe Flacco, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo . Is that list ok for you .

It's inaccurate, for sure

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2 hours ago, section314 said:

He won the Heisman trophy. They give that to bad players? 

Ok so cross off Staubach . Still there are 5 Qb's who weren't great in college and went on to be great NFL QB's. I'm sure If I dug enough I'd come up with more. 

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21 hours ago, 56mehl56 said:

Tom Brady, Warren Moon, Roger Staubach, Joe Flacco, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo . Is that list ok for you .

Brady - was actually a very good player his problem was Lloyd Carr recruited too many qb's and he got lost in the shuffle at times.

Moon - was a good college player and good in the CFL he played at a time when there was a racist perception that Black Players couldn't play QB.

Staubach - 68% and 66% completion percentages his first two years at Navy.  So I'm scratching my head at what you are talking about.

Flacco, Warner, Romo - good players in college they just played at small schools.

 

Hack - sucks

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50 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

Ok so cross off Staubach . Still there are 5 Qb's who weren't great in college and went on to be great NFL QB's. I'm sure If I dug enough I'd come up with more. 

Hack was so awful in TC and preseason last year he was wearing plain clothes up until like week 16 and Geno and Petty were both injured.  Macc's reputation is invested in Hack being good yet he and Bowles were so scared by Hack in practice they didn't even have him on the playing roster as a backup for 90% of the season.

Christian Hacknberg is absolutely horrible.  Won't be in the NFL in 2018

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1 hour ago, thadude said:

Hack was so awful in TC and preseason last year he was wearing plain clothes up until like week 16 and Geno and Petty were both injured.  Macc's reputation is invested in Hack being good yet he and Bowles were so scared by Hack in practice they didn't even have him on the playing roster as a backup for 90% of the season.

Christian Hacknberg is absolutely horrible.  Won't be in the NFL in 2018

Just like you won't be posting here when he's starting and winning games. 

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8 hours ago, thadude said:

Hack was so awful in TC and preseason last year he was wearing plain clothes up until like week 16 and Geno and Petty were both injured.  Macc's reputation is invested in Hack being good yet he and Bowles were so scared by Hack in practice they didn't even have him on the playing roster as a backup for 90% of the season.

Christian Hacknberg is absolutely horrible.  Won't be in the NFL in 2018

People need to stop saying this sh*tt.  They friggin TOLD us he would sit the entire year. Then when they do it, all of a sudden it is because he sucks. It is simply a complete pile of crap argument.

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On 5/18/2017 at 9:39 AM, RoadFan said:

OP is asking the wrong question. The better question is "What exactly is Hackenberg good at?"

Accuracy? No.

Decision-making? No.

Mechanics? No.

Footwork? No.

One could certainly make a case for durability.  But other than that....what else?

Crap post. He was actually exceptional at decision making. Someone did a really in depth analysis of how good his decision making, adjustments and command of the offense were.

 

The other three are all the same and it is all about his footwork

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10 hours ago, thadude said:

Hack was so awful in TC and preseason last year he was wearing plain clothes up until like week 16 and Geno and Petty were both injured.  Macc's reputation is invested in Hack being good yet he and Bowles were so scared by Hack in practice they didn't even have him on the playing roster as a backup for 90% of the season.

Christian Hacknberg is absolutely horrible.  Won't be in the NFL in 2018

"What can men do against such reckless hate?"

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Hackenberg's not good behind a bad OL. You could see this in the preseason. But when protected he can pick a defense apart. Also was evident last preseason in the first drive against the Giants. People seem to forget that the Jets said he was sitting all year soon after they picked him in the draft last year. They also seem to forget that he just turned 22 years old not so long ago. I swear the beat writers can write made up trash and half the Jets fans will buy it every time. Just like this time last year they were writing about Hackenberg's throwing mechanics. His throwing mechanics were never the issue. It is footwork and throwing under pressure that were the issue. He needs a clean pocket to step into his throws or his accuracy is horrible. Both issues are really common problems for even pro bowl QB's.

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7 hours ago, RSJ said:

Hackenberg's not good behind a bad OL. You could see this in the preseason. But when protected he can pick a defense apart. Also was evident last preseason in the first drive against the Giants. People seem to forget that the Jets said he was sitting all year soon after they picked him in the draft last year. They also seem to forget that he just turned 22 years old not so long ago. I swear the beat writers can write made up trash and half the Jets fans will buy it every time. Just like this time last year they were writing about Hackenberg's throwing mechanics. His throwing mechanics were never the issue. It is footwork and throwing under pressure that were the issue. He needs a clean pocket to step into his throws or his accuracy is horrible. Both issues are really common problems for even pro bowl QB's.

Game. Set. Match. I mean there's not much else to say. This is the Hack situation.

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On 5/19/2017 at 3:14 PM, gEYno said:

Well, yes, most bad college players continue to be bad.  Stephen Hill is just a recent, palpable, example of the point... Even more so when you consider that both of these players have a significant limitation in their game that history doesn't have great precedent of working itself out in the pros.

I'm eagerly awaiting your list of poor college QBs who went on to be good though... Eagerly.

Here is the issue with Hackenberg, you can comp his numbers all that you want against other qb's in the history of college football that were drafted, but you cannot duplicate what his program experienced as he committed to the program:

-PSU was limited to 15 scholarships a year, and 60 scholarships on the team in total in any given year. An unsanctioned program has 85 schollies as a full allotment.

   Guess what, this has an impact on what and who you recruit. O'Brien went after skill positions. He totally ignored the offensive line. Not criticizing him, but it was the approach he took, and some areas had to be ignored. 

   On top of that, PSU had a number of injuries on the offensive line during this time period.

   So,I will leave it up to you to guess what the state of the PSU line was during Hack's tenure.

-The NCAA saw fit to allow other NCAA teams to immediately poach PSU players (I understand this-punish the program, not the players). 15 players took them up on that offer, as some schools camped out on the PSU campus, poaching. 

   Guess what that does to your depth, and more so, team morale?

-As you can imagine, this also made PSU a rather less than desirable destination for high school star athletes. Really, who would want to walk into that?

So, if we wanted to put an NFL equivalency to these penalties, it may be equal to:

-Placing your franchise in Cleveland

-Allowing all your free agents to leave, without you having an opportunity to bid on them

-Taking your first 3 rounds of draft picks away for 4 years.

Now, you tell me how that team will compete, and how the players will have opportunity to grow.

 

Does any of this mean that Hackenberg will succeed as an NFL qb? Of course not. But, don't take a mindless approach of "comping performance', and pretend that this experience was similar to others in college ball.  That is just lazy analysis. No college QB ever had that experience.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Scott Dierking said:

Here is the issue with Hackenberg, you can comp his numbers all that you want against other qb's in the history of college football that were drafted, but you cannot duplicate what his program experienced as he committed to the program:

-PSU was limited to 15 scholarships a year, and 60 scholarships on the team in total in any given year. An unsanctioned program has 85 schollies as a full allotment.

   Guess what, this has an impact on what and who you recruit. O'Brien went after skill positions. He totally ignored the offensive line. Not criticizing him, but it was the approach he took, and some areas had to be ignored. 

   On top of that, PSU had a number of injuries on the offensive line during this time period.

   So,I will leave it up to you to guess what the state of the PSU line was during Hack's tenure.

-The NCAA saw fit to allow other NCAA teams to immediately poach PSU players (I understand this-punish the program, not the players). 15 players took them up on that offer, as some schools camped out on the PSU campus, poaching. 

   Guess what that does to your depth, and more so, team morale?

-As you can imagine, this also made PSU a rather less than desirable destination for high school star athletes. Really, who would want to walk into that?

So, if we wanted to put an NFL equivalency to these penalties, it may be equal to:

-Placing your franchise in Cleveland

-Allowing all your free agents to leave, without you having an opportunity to bid on them

-Taking your first 3 rounds of draft picks away for 4 years.

Now, you tell me how that team will compete, and how the players will have opportunity to grow.

 

Does any of this mean that Hackenberg will succeed as an NFL qb? Of course not. But, don't take a mindless approach of "comping performance', and pretend that this experience was similar to others in college ball.  That is just lazy analysis. No college QB ever had that experience.

 

 

 

Dude, at least cite your sources:

 

IMG_0545.JPG

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So much talk based on so little.

Relax folks. We'll see for ourselves soon enough if Hack sucks or Hack has potential. O the NFL field, where it matters.

No need to rush it, Hack is a Jet in 2017. He will get his shot, and we'll all see it.

There is no need or cause to decide what Hack is now, today. Let it play out.

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16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

So much talk based on so little.

Relax folks. We'll see for ourselves soon enough if Hack sucks or Hack has potential. O the NFL field, where it matters.

No need to rush it, Hack is a Jet in 2017. He will get his shot, and we'll all see it.

There is no need or cause to decide what Hack is now, today. Let it play out.

This. I truly don't understand why everyone is so distraught right now... chill. 

Worst case scenario is we still have no QB, which means ZERO adjustment to Jet fan expectations. Best case, we do. Only good thing come from this. But yea, let's go on the internet and plaster our neurosis all over the place for sh*ts and giggles.

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