Can Jets' Wesley Johnson 'prove them right' as Nick Mangold's replacement?

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Lots of words are required, in this case, to be condescending. I could have made my point way more succinctly. It was a stylistic choice, not a dependency of the argument.

 

Go head and come up with something arbitrary so that you can type "wrong" lots more times. 

I know you just like to troll, but sometimes I wonder about your sanity.  There is literally nothing arbitrary about what I typed. It is the only reason we are discussing Winters at all.  If we were arguing whether his contract was fair/smart at the time signed you would have a point.  We are not.

[CanadaSteve]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Oh, you mean pay more than fair market value?  Sure, they can always do that.

Yeah, that's what we will do....oy.

 

[sourceworx]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I can't possible overstate what bullsh*t this is. 

1.  Bilal Powell gained more than 50 yards twice in 2015.  Once was opening day.  He got 313 yards and 1 TD rushing. His receiving numbers were similar. He improved on his awful 2014, but it was still a fairly poor year.

If you look at the season as a whole, then yes you are correct. He was injured for a good part of the season. But he was also big part of the team's rally late that year, which is a big reason why they brought him back.  

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

2.  Brian Winters being incapable of beating out Colon is not a reason to think he is worth real money.  The team had him.  You are giving the team credit for signing players because they didn't know about the players, but the only reason they didn't know about the players is because of the team's poor talent evaluation.

Talk about bullsh*t....

Winters wasn't a full-time starter until last year, but he still had a lot of starts under his belt and was dogsh*t for the most part. They likely weren't planning to keep him beyond last season (the final year of his rookie deal), but changed their minds because he improved.

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

3.  I did want to lock these guys up earlier.  When you can get a guy cheap, you sign him for more years.  It is true that these guys may not have signed for exact multiples of their cheap deals, but you can't tell me they all were going to demand long term guaranteed deals.  Especially when they were not touched in the 2015 offseason (in Ijalana's case the 2016 offseason too).  I hate to bring up he who shall not be named, but Maccagnan does have a history of bidding against himself.  

You try to sign guys earlier if they show you something early on, and you want to keep them beyond their rookie deal. Winters largely sucked until last year. No one expected him to improve as much as he did.

Should they sign Calvin Pryor to a new deal now? I'm sure he'll come cheaper than he will later on if plays well in 2017. Mac and his crystal ball should know this ahead of time, amirite?

If you want to criticize them for anything with regards to Winters, it's that they took a risk by signing a guy who sucked until his contract year. Outside of that, you're simply being ridiculous.

[Integrity28]

11 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know you just like to troll, but sometimes I wonder about your sanity.  There is literally nothing arbitrary about what I typed. It is the only reason we are discussing Winters at all.  If we were arguing whether his contract was fair/smart at the time signed you would have a point.  We are not.

[#27TheDominator]

3 minutes ago, sourceworx said:

If you look at the season as a whole, then yes you are correct. He was injured for a good part of the season. But he was also big part of the team's rally late that year, which is a big reason why they brought him back.  

Talk about bullsh*t....

Winters wasn't a full-time starter until last year, but he still had a lot of starts under his belt and was dogsh*t for the most part. They likely weren't planning to keep him beyond last season (the final year of his rookie deal), but changed their minds because he improved.

You try to sign guys earlier if they show you something early on, and you want to keep them beyond their rookie deal. Winters largely sucked until last year. No one expected him to improve as much as he did.

Should they sign Calvin Pryor to a new deal now? I'm sure he'll come cheaper than he will later on if plays well in 2017. Mac and his crystal ball should know this ahead of time, amirite?

If you want to criticize them for anything with regards to Winters, it's that they took a risk by signing a guy who sucked until his contract year. Outside of that, you're simply being ridiculous.

No bullsh*t here.  I don't think Winters was as bad as everyone else did in his early starts.   A larger problem with signing him might be his injury history.  He has been in the NFL for 4 years and has been on season ending IR with an ACL and rotator cuff, and has missed time with concussions.  

FWIW, I think people bitch about Pryor too much also.  He's not a great safety, but I think he is a starting level player and have a bigger problem with coaching and deployment, but that's just me.  I can see why people don't like him.  He wasn't worth the tender and I don't want to extend him after stupidly blowing a 1st and 2nd at S, but again, that's just me.  Unlike our lunatic coach and FO, I find interior line and safety a place to find/use value players.

[Smashmouth]

53 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It could have even been a 1 yr with a team option for yr 2 with a bit of a raise if he's still starting.

They had two pieces of leverage: Mangold was still on the roster and there was a draft coming up so they could tag him without WJ being able to cash in: they could demote him and just keep him around as a rover backup, or he could get cut on the last day this summer.

After this season's over, should they want to re-sign WJ for 2018/beyond, they will have no leverage at all (just like with Winters this year).

Its not as easy as some of you guys lay it out here. If the guy plays great hes going to get paid if he plays like sh*t hes not going to get paid. Would it have been better to extend him at a moderate salary and he turns out to be meh ? I think the way this is being handled is just fine thinking you can just cheap out on players is not a good philosophy on what amounts to be a bad team the past few years. In other words if this were the Pats where players want to play, things are much different.

When looking at Winters his play was in question and then he seemed to come into his own and he got paid so we have 2 pretty good guards and what looks like a good solid center not an all pro but and nice interior of the OL. Lets not micro analyze every single players situation and point fingers at Macc every damn chance we get youre making him out to be much worse than he actually is.

[#27TheDominator]

microanalyze every situation vs. pattern.

[peebag]

Who else at the time could they have signed instead of Winters and at roughly the same amount?  I'm thinking the kitchen cupboards were bare....

[kdels62]

The Winters thing is tricky because he became a good full-time starter this season, extending him earlier would have been foolish. The Johnson thing is different because he already has shown starting ability and was good last season. Giving him a contract that's for 2-3 years at a discount seems reasonable but considering he was an RFA and his price was set for him he should be in no rush to sign a bigger deal. 

Enunwa is more interesting and should be signed long term before his contract is up. We know he's good already. He could be better this year and his contract value might balloon.

[rangerous]

5 hours ago, Gas2No99 said:

Can Jets' Wesley Johnson 'prove them right' as Nick Mangold's replacement?

Wesley Johnson is entering a big season. (Michael Mancuso | For NJ.com)

CALDWELL -- It's clear the Jets have high hopes for their new center, Wesley Johnson. 

After all, they cut longtime center Nick Mangold earlier this offseason, and then they didn't sign a big-name free agent center, or draft an offensive lineman at all. 

So they're rolling with Johnson as their starter, with low-profile free agent acquisition Jonotthan Harrison as the likely backup. Johnson, a fourth-year pro, has nine career starts, including eight last season, when Mangold hurt his ankle. 

Johnson took it as a vote of confidence, from the Jets, when they didn't draft or sign a prominent center after cutting Mangold. 

"Yeah, I did," he said. "I was happy with it. I've just got to prove them right." 

Johnson spoke Monday at Jets middle linebacker David Harris' annual charity golf tournament, which benefits the Give the Kids Hope Foundation. 

Johnson looks up to Mangold, so it was tough for Johnson to see Mangold go. 

"It's hard," Johnson said. "He's been a mentor to me. He's kind of a mentor for life. But that's the business. I feel like they kind of recycle everybody. I'm sure Nick will be fine, wherever he goes." 

Johnson said last season's eight starts left him "knowing that I can do the job, and also knowing what I've got to improve at." 

It helped that Mangold stuck around the team after landing on injured reserve in December. 

"He was right behind me the whole way," Johnson said. "He was in my back pocket. He helped me every chance he could. I appreciate that a lot." 

Johnson and Mangold have kept in touch since the Jets cut Mangold. Johnson said Mangold's message to him has been "good luck." Johnson, who joined the Jets in October 2014, already took plenty of tips just from watching Mangold play. 

"The way he approached it," Johnson said. "Just watched tape every day. He knew the offense better than even some of the quarterbacks. He was very knowledgeable, and he took a lot of pride in being able to command the offense." 

 

Mangold had been the Jets center since they drafted him in 2006, so these are big shoes to fill. Can Johnson immediately command the Jets' offense like Mangold did for so long? 

"It's difficult, but we'll see," Johnson said. 

If Johnson plays well in 2017, he could cash in next offseason, since he is playing this season on a one-year restricted free agent tender contract. 

he kind of already did.  he started enough games in place of mangold and did well enough.

[Sperm Edwards]

5 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Its not as easy as some of you guys lay it out here. If the guy plays great hes going to get paid if he plays like sh*t hes not going to get paid. Would it have been better to extend him at a moderate salary and he turns out to be meh ? I think the way this is being handled is just fine thinking you can just cheap out on players is not a good philosophy on what amounts to be a bad team the past few years. In other words if this were the Pats where players want to play, things are much different.

When looking at Winters his play was in question and then he seemed to come into his own and he got paid so we have 2 pretty good guards and what looks like a good solid center not an all pro but and nice interior of the OL. Lets not micro analyze every single players situation and point fingers at Macc every damn chance we get youre making him out to be much worse than he actually is.

I'd say the opposite. You let every idiotic thing he does just slide. Indeed you (and others here) actually rationalize these misfires as though they were smart. You're also making it out like these things are harder than they are (particularly with the limitless resources to which he has access). The problem is he was a total novice when he was hired. The guy's a friggin' scout by training, so there's no reason to believe he'd be instantly good at this just because we all desire him to be good at this. It may take him another 5 years for the light to go on.

As far as Winters, his big jump in play was in 2015, after he took over for Colon and started most of that season. He got a little better still in 2016, which is a good thing, but it wasn't nearly the strides that he'd made compared to 2013-14 (especially in pass blocking). So what did we do about it after 2015, when he had nowhere to go and we could threaten to sign another guard in March or draft another in April? Absolutely nothing. We handed him the starting job again as the de facto incumbent, then waited until the 2016 season ended (with him on IR), then when the risk of more serious injury or benching prior to FA was behind him, we then signed him to ~$8m per.

I'm not saying the team can't weather paying Winters that amount; of course it can. It's that - as @#27TheDominator put it - we repeatedly leave too much money on the table as though it was our desired outcome. And he's doing it again with Enunwa, who should have been extended while the Jets' leverage was greatest: before cutting Marshall, before they could see if Decker was healthy enough, before we see if Decker gets injured again during the season, before we see if Anderson makes any strides (or gets into trouble), before a WR-rich draft when we have the 6th overall pick, before he enters this season while knowing he can't really shop himself around until 2019... that is when a GM would extend him if he was actually good at this.

I mean, doesn't it concern you even a little bit that, in 3 seasons, we haven't extended a single player before his final contract year is finished? Good GMs, and even bad GMs, know enough to do this. We instead purposely time things to pay the maximum possible amount. It's just dumb.

[sourceworx]

7 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

No bullsh*t here.  I don't think Winters was as bad as everyone else did in his early starts.   A larger problem with signing him might be his injury history.  He has been in the NFL for 4 years and has been on season ending IR with an ACL and rotator cuff, and has missed time with concussions.  

FWIW, I think people bitch about Pryor too much also.  He's not a great safety, but I think he is a starting level player and have a bigger problem with coaching and deployment, but that's just me.  I can see why people don't like him.  He wasn't worth the tender and I don't want to extend him after stupidly blowing a 1st and 2nd at S, but again, that's just me.  Unlike our lunatic coach and FO, I find interior line and safety a place to find/use value players.

Come on man. Other than last year, Winters has been pretty bad. They're banking on him building off of his strong season last year. If you want to go after Mac for taking that risk, fine. You'd have a fair argument to make. But complaining that Mac should have somehow known in 2015 (after sucking for three years) that he'd suddenly turn a corner in 2016 is absurd. There's plenty of valid things to go after Mac for without resorting to this kind of nonsense. 

And sorry friend, but Pryor is a terrible DB. I guess you could argue that he's ok as a box safety, but a first round pick should be better than just ok. To be honest, I think he's better-suited as a LB the same way Mark Barron ultimately was. 

[Smashmouth]

5 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'd say the opposite. You let every idiotic thing he does just slide. Indeed you (and others here) actually rationalize these misfires as though they were smart. You're also making it out like these things are harder than they are (particularly with the limitless resources to which he has access). The problem is he was a total novice when he was hired. The guy's a friggin' scout by training, so there's no reason to believe he'd be instantly good at this just because we all desire him to be good at this. It may take him another 5 years for the light to go on.

As far as Winters, his big jump in play was in 2015, after he took over for Colon and started most of that season. He got a little better still in 2016, which is a good thing, but it wasn't nearly the strides that he'd made compared to 2013-14 (especially in pass blocking). So what did we do about it after 2015, when he had nowhere to go and we could threaten to sign another guard in March or draft another in April? Absolutely nothing. We handed him the starting job again as the de facto incumbent, then waited until the 2016 season ended (with him on IR), then when the risk of more serious injury or benching prior to FA was behind him, we then signed him to ~$8m per.

I'm not saying the team can't weather paying Winters that amount; of course it can. It's that - as @#27TheDominator put it - we repeatedly leave too much money on the table as though it was our desired outcome. And he's doing it again with Enunwa, who should have been extended while the Jets' leverage was greatest: before cutting Marshall, before they could see if Decker was healthy enough, before we see if Decker gets injured again during the season, before we see if Anderson makes any strides (or gets into trouble), before a WR-rich draft when we have the 6th overall pick, before he enters this season while knowing he can't really shop himself around until 2019... that is when a GM would extend him if he was actually good at this.

I mean, doesn't it concern you even a little bit that, in 3 seasons, we haven't extended a single player before his final contract year is finished? Good GMs, and even bad GMs, know enough to do this. We instead purposely time things to pay the maximum possible amount. It's just dumb.

I see what your saying but things like this are different for every player (I happen to agree on Enunwa) and then there is also the input from the Idiot HC who is on the same level as we've been told. Honestly who the hell knows how these decisions are made in an organization where the HC is on the same level as the GM if anything can be labeled stupid its that.

Also I'm not a blind defender of Macc but I don't bash every move the guy makes either. I do not think hes doing a great job but I don't think hes doing bad either.