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19 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

We blame Mac for everything, when I think 50 percent of the problem is Woody.  He wanted that money spent to make a splash after firing a GM after 2 years.  He looked like an idiot after watching a man burn 12 draft picks and get nothing for them.  Then, we get a fluke season, just like the Bills did with Fitzpatrick, and suddenly we are contenders.  Bowles anoints him the starter when he still wasn't resigned, and I am sure Woody wanted him back.  We give him big bucks, and we got what we should have got the first season.  

For me, I look at this as Mac's second season of a rebuild.  Don't even think that 10-6 happened.  I feel that he should get one more year.  Lets see what we have after that.  IF the product does not look good, well then I think he will be gone.  Remember, Reggie Mackenzie did not look that good when he started.  Then, the draft picks started to mature, and he found a QB.  Finding a QB makes a lot of problems go away.  Mac hasn't found his, and he might only get one more crack at finding one.

 

I agree with this for the most part.

Mac traded 5 picks away for veteran players who are no longer on the team.  His strategy this year was to trade for more picks.  The latter indicates to me more of a rebuild.

The Jets should always be looking to upgrade their coach and GM.  That is what they did with Parcells years ago, and it worked.   But given how Woody hires, I am not seeing him hire anyone that does a better job than what we currently have, and the market knows that Woody has had a quick trigger finger, and that Mac was likely told in 2015 to win games.

So I think Mac needs three years of rebuilding before making a judgement.  This is year 2.  It is a short 2 years, because much of last year was also trying to win again.  But the roster and team should be assessed at the end of 2018, and then they can decide whether Macc can build a team.  I see positive and negatives, but I think potential hires will then see that Woody gives his people a fair chance, and I would think someone good would then come in.

In all honesty, I give it 50/50.

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8 hours ago, varjet said:

I agree with this for the most part.

Mac traded 5 picks away for veteran players who are no longer on the team.  His strategy this year was to trade for more picks.  The latter indicates to me more of a rebuild.

The Jets should always be looking to upgrade their coach and GM.  That is what they did with Parcells years ago, and it worked.   But given how Woody hires, I am not seeing him hire anyone that does a better job than what we currently have, and the market knows that Woody has had a quick trigger finger, and that Mac was likely told in 2015 to win games.

So I think Mac needs three years of rebuilding before making a judgement.  This is year 2.  It is a short 2 years, because much of last year was also trying to win again.  But the roster and team should be assessed at the end of 2018, and then they can decide whether Macc can build a team.  I see positive and negatives, but I think potential hires will then see that Woody gives his people a fair chance, and I would think someone good would then come in.

In all honesty, I give it 50/50.

So his 3rd year is really barely his 2nd?  

Woody has a quick trigger finger?  I don't think so. He kept Herm for five years, Rex for six.  Tannenbaum for seven.  I think the issue is more that a big time guy will demand to be at the top of the chain reporting to the man and not accept this bullsh*t wannabe Medusa structure.  OTOH, a big time guy will deserve it.

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Big time guy.

 

IMG_0628.JPG

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On 2017-07-12 at 3:28 PM, Sperm Edwards said:

unsurprisingly convenient ;) 

Its my viewpoint.  You are free to look at it however you like.

 

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3 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Its my viewpoint.  You are free to look at it however you like.

 

I realize. It's still a convenient way of looking at his 3rd year.

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16 hours ago, T0mShane said:

Big time guy.

 

IMG_0628.JPG

giphy.gif

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On 2017-07-14 at 10:19 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

I realize. It's still a convenient way of looking at his 3rd year.

I have also thought it convenient to think everything he has done sucks;  makes people look great when we fire him.

Guess we'll know how well he did in a few years when all his picks have played a few years.

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7 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

I have also thought it convenient to think everything he has done sucks;  makes people look great when we fire him.

Guess we'll know how well he did in a few years when all his picks have played a few years.

I don't think everything he has done sucks, but clearly the overwhelming majority of things he's done suck. 

I've said multiple times before, if he hits on Hackenberg then I'd forgive most of it. As it stands, his actions this spring suggest even he believes this to be unlikely.

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't think everything he has done sucks, but clearly the overwhelming majority of things he's done suck. 

I've said multiple times before, if he hits on Hackenberg then I'd forgive most of it. As it stands, his actions this spring suggest even he believes this to be unlikely.

As we have gone back and forth, I disagree with overwhelming majority, but....

I don't think he will hit on Hackenberg.

When we hire these rookie GM's, I really wish Woody would stay out of things, because I think that is half the problem.  We will never know for sure, but my guess is

a) Woody wanted the big splash in free agency three years ago after firing a GM after two years

b. After the 10-6 fiasco and Todd Bowles pronouncing Fitz as the starter before he was on the team, Woody stuck his nose in again.

c.  Now, he seems to be on board with a rebuild, but it looks to be too late as everyone wants Mac gone. 

 

Honest Question: Do you really think the next GM is going to get a fair chance before he is run out of town too?

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1 hour ago, CanadaSteve said:

As we have gone back and forth, I disagree with overwhelming majority, but....

I don't think he will hit on Hackenberg.

When we hire these rookie GM's, I really wish Woody would stay out of things, because I think that is half the problem.  We will never know for sure, but my guess is

a) Woody wanted the big splash in free agency three years ago after firing a GM after two years

b. After the 10-6 fiasco and Todd Bowles pronouncing Fitz as the starter before he was on the team, Woody stuck his nose in again.

c.  Now, he seems to be on board with a rebuild, but it looks to be too late as everyone wants Mac gone. 

 

Honest Question: Do you really think the next GM is going to get a fair chance before he is run out of town too?

You treat your guess as though it was a 50/50 chance (it either was or wasn't what happened) simply because there are onoy 2 options (you're right or you're wrong). 

Meanwhile Maccagnan has stated himself Woody doesn't do this - or anyway, hasn't with him as GM - and lets them do their own thing. He surely runs big decisions past Woody, but that's not unexpected (even if we personally wished he'd behave as a blind/deaf/mute checkbook. 

The only weak hint of a leak this year was Woody pushing rebuild more than Maccagnan, and that was around the time we released Harris (with the idea floated that he was the behind that move). Beyond that? Opening his big see stupid yapper, absentmindedly tampering Revis in the post-Idzik/Rex presser, and a weak endorsement through the press around April last year, telling Fitz he should sign the Jets' offer using "come back home" type wording.

I like very little about him as the Jets' owner, but generally this stuff has been baseless fan conspiracy theory suppositions.

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You treat your guess as though it was a 50/50 chance (it either was or wasn't what happened) simply because there are onoy 2 options (you're right or you're wrong). 

Meanwhile Maccagnan has stated himself Woody doesn't do this - or anyway, hasn't with him as GM - and lets them do their own thing. He surely runs big decisions past Woody, but that's not unexpected (even if we personally wished he'd behave as a blind/deaf/mute checkbook. 

The only weak hint of a leak this year was Woody pushing rebuild more than Maccagnan, and that was around the time we released Harris (with the idea floated that he was the behind that move). Beyond that? Opening his big see stupid yapper, absentmindedly tampering Revis in the post-Idzik/Rex presser, and a weak endorsement through the press around April last year, telling Fitz he should sign the Jets' offer using "come back home" type wording.

I like very little about him as the Jets' owner, but generally this stuff has been baseless fan conspiracy theory suppositions.

Woody drafted Hackenberg and Devin Smith.  I know cuz Canadasteve said so

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9 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't think everything he has done sucks, but clearly the overwhelming majority of things he's done suck. 

I've said multiple times before, if he hits on Hackenberg then I'd forgive most of it. As it stands, his actions this spring suggest even he believes this to be unlikely.

That's huge of you.  Not surprising though that you add in another line to make it convient for you to keep complaining about Hack. 

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7 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You treat your guess as though it was a 50/50 chance (it either was or wasn't what happened) simply because there are onoy 2 options (you're right or you're wrong). 

Meanwhile Maccagnan has stated himself Woody doesn't do this - or anyway, hasn't with him as GM - and lets them do their own thing. He surely runs big decisions past Woody, but that's not unexpected (even if we personally wished he'd behave as a blind/deaf/mute checkbook. 

The only weak hint of a leak this year was Woody pushing rebuild more than Maccagnan, and that was around the time we released Harris (with the idea floated that he was the behind that move). Beyond that? Opening his big see stupid yapper, absentmindedly tampering Revis in the post-Idzik/Rex presser, and a weak endorsement through the press around April last year, telling Fitz he should sign the Jets' offer using "come back home" type wording.

I like very little about him as the Jets' owner, but generally this stuff has been baseless fan conspiracy theory suppositions.

Well, if Maccagnan, or Tannenbaum don't say that Woody told them to do something, or not to do something, then, CLEARLY, Woody must not be meddling at all. Because in the NFL, when a GM throws their owner or former owner under the bus, they always get another job, easily........

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3 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

That's huge of you.  Not surprising though that you add in another line to make it convient for you to keep complaining about Hack. 

Hardly.

I'm saying that, as a fan, I'd overlook so many stupid things if he hit on this one. The other things wouldn't be any less stupid, but they'd b more forgivable. 

In the absence of finding a good franchise QB, why should any Jets fan overlook such the balance of his idiocy? 

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3 hours ago, NoBowles said:

Well, if Maccagnan, or Tannenbaum don't say that Woody told them to do something, or not to do something, then, CLEARLY, Woody must not be meddling at all. Because in the NFL, when a GM throws their owner or former owner under the bus, they always get another job, easily........

Yes, it would have been very difficult of him to keep the finger squarely off himself alone by saying, "Y'know, it wasn't any one person's idea over the objection of everyone else. We thought he filled a couple of holes at the time. It's in the past, and obvously it wasn't a move that worked out for us."

No, you're probably right. The only way of getting around that question was to unequivocally and dishonestly say, "It was me. It was all me. It was my idea from the get-go, and I had to talk other people into this bad idea." Because Tannenbaum had never been in front of a microphone before, therefore he froze and that was the best bull**** answer he could come up with.

:blink:

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13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yes, it would have been very difficult of him to keep the finger squarely off himself alone by saying, "Y'know, it wasn't any one person's idea over the objection of everyone else. We thought he filled a couple of holes at the time. It's in the past, and obvously it wasn't a move that worked out for us."

No, you're probably right. The only way of getting around that question was to unequivocally and dishonestly say, "It was me. It was all me. It was my idea from the get-go, and I had to talk other people into this bad idea." Because Tannenbaum had never been in front of a microphone before, therefore he froze and that was the best bull**** answer he could come up with.

:blink:

Never let logic get in the way of a good agenda....

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11 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You treat your guess as though it was a 50/50 chance (it either was or wasn't what happened) simply because there are onoy 2 options (you're right or you're wrong). 

Meanwhile Maccagnan has stated himself Woody doesn't do this - or anyway, hasn't with him as GM - and lets them do their own thing. He surely runs big decisions past Woody, but that's not unexpected (even if we personally wished he'd behave as a blind/deaf/mute checkbook. 

The only weak hint of a leak this year was Woody pushing rebuild more than Maccagnan, and that was around the time we released Harris (with the idea floated that he was the behind that move). Beyond that? Opening his big see stupid yapper, absentmindedly tampering Revis in the post-Idzik/Rex presser, and a weak endorsement through the press around April last year, telling Fitz he should sign the Jets' offer using "come back home" type wording.

I like very little about him as the Jets' owner, but generally this stuff has been baseless fan conspiracy theory suppositions.

Yeah, I'm sure Mac would openly say to the media that he was a puppet.   I'm sure has never had a meeting with Mac and said "Make 'x' or 'y' happen. 

Again, we are not going to agree on Mac's assessment.  We never have.  I think things have been okay, and am waiting to see how all these guys pan out.  My biggest beef with him was how he treated rounds 1 and 2 in the second year.  Perhaps if the Fitz fiasco doesn't happen, he picks Lynch.  Who knows?  But personally, I wanted the Jets to take a chance on Lynch in the first round, freeing up the second round to draft Max Tuerk.  That is how I wanted to see it play out, but it didn't.  But on the whole, I have liked a lot of the players drafted, and believe there has been good value found, especially in later rounds. 

NOTHING will matter if Hackenberg or Petty do not work out.  If he is lucky enough to still be the GM next year, if he misses the QB, he will be gone.  Its that simple.

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59 minutes ago, NoBowles said:

Never let logic get in the way of a good agenda....

You have no mirrors in your house I take it. Also I presume all your Reynolds Wrap is used making hats.

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56 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Yeah, I'm sure Mac would openly say to the media that he was a puppet.   I'm sure has never had a meeting with Mac and said "Make 'x' or 'y' happen. 

Again, we are not going to agree on Mac's assessment.  We never have.  I think things have been okay, and am waiting to see how all these guys pan out.  My biggest beef with him was how he treated rounds 1 and 2 in the second year.  Perhaps if the Fitz fiasco doesn't happen, he picks Lynch.  Who knows?  But personally, I wanted the Jets to take a chance on Lynch in the first round, freeing up the second round to draft Max Tuerk.  That is how I wanted to see it play out, but it didn't.  But on the whole, I have liked a lot of the players drafted, and believe there has been good value found, especially in later rounds. 

NOTHING will matter if Hackenberg or Petty do not work out.  If he is lucky enough to still be the GM next year, if he misses the QB, he will be gone.  Its that simple.

He could just say nothing at all. People do that all the time. 

Your logic is also inconsistent (which is to say, you're not using logic; you're using emotion). You want to fully credit Maccagnan with moves you like, and then in the next breath say he's just a puppet for Woody. 

I think Woody's a fool, and his power structure between HC and GM is the acme of stupidity, but there's no evidence he's forcing players onto his GMs. It makes it easier to swallow, as everyone loves to hate a boogeyman, but there's no way that stuff could be kept quiet for this long, and would have leaked out plenty of times by now, about how the GM didn't want a player (or a number of players at that) but he was forced to do it.

It can be two things that are true: Woody can be nobody's genius of an owner and Maccagnan can be just as bad at his own job.

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14 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

As we have gone back and forth, I disagree with overwhelming majority, but....

I don't think he will hit on Hackenberg.

When we hire these rookie GM's, I really wish Woody would stay out of things, because I think that is half the problem.  We will never know for sure, but my guess is

a) Woody wanted the big splash in free agency three years ago after firing a GM after two years

b. After the 10-6 fiasco and Todd Bowles pronouncing Fitz as the starter before he was on the team, Woody stuck his nose in again.

c.  Now, he seems to be on board with a rebuild, but it looks to be too late as everyone wants Mac gone. 

 

Honest Question: Do you really think the next GM is going to get a fair chance before he is run out of town too?

Although I appreciate the message you're circling - MOST don't think Macc's that bad... inside JETS forums he takes heat, but public perception and general media are still moderately neutral towards our GM. Truth is - MOST of us know on some level that he's a competent Manager. What he has not been - is a good evaluator of talent in the draft...

Go ahead, I'll wait while point the success he's had in the draft. (don't bother listing williams or adams. Matt Millen would have hit on those) 

So while I do want to give Macc some time and leash... I'm also running of out patience with his inability to draft, particularly at QB. He should bring in a senior personnel guy or something. We can't afford to whiff in 2018 on a QB. 

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6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

You have no mirrors in your house I take it. Also I presume all your Reynolds Wrap is used making hats.

I think you misunderstood my post, I was saying you only use logic when you post, and NEVER post based on an agenda. Your too sensitive these days.

The Reynolds wrap is fine, I make all my hats out of the clear plastic wrap.

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7 hours ago, Paradis said:

Although I appreciate the message you're circling - MOST don't think Macc's that bad... inside JETS forums he takes heat, but public perception and general media are still moderately neutral towards our GM. Truth is - MOST of us know on some level that he's a competent Manager. What he has not been - is a good evaluator of talent in the draft...

Go ahead, I'll wait while point the success he's had in the draft. (don't bother listing williams or adams. Matt Millen would have hit on those) 

So while I do want to give Macc some time and leash... I'm also running of out patience with his inability to draft, particularly at QB. He should bring in a senior personnel guy or something. We can't afford to whiff in 2018 on a QB. 

Because competent GM's try to use Eric Decker as trade bait immediately after announcing they will cut him

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8 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He could just say nothing at all. People do that all the time. 

Your logic is also inconsistent (which is to say, you're not using logic; you're using emotion). You want to fully credit Maccagnan with moves you like, and then in the next breath say he's just a puppet for Woody. 

I think Woody's a fool, and his power structure between HC and GM is the acme of stupidity, but there's no evidence he's forcing players onto his GMs. It makes it easier to swallow, as everyone loves to hate a boogeyman, but there's no way that stuff could be kept quiet for this long, and would have leaked out plenty of times by now, about how the GM didn't want a player (or a number of players at that) but he was forced to do it.

It can be two things that are true: Woody can be nobody's genius of an owner and Maccagnan can be just as bad at his own job.

Okay Sperm......I guess you can't have a nosy owner AND a GM who does make some moves on his own.  It can only be one or the other.

 

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8 hours ago, Paradis said:

 

Go ahead, I'll wait while point the success he's had in the draft. (don't bother listing williams or adams. Matt Millen would have hit on those)

Devin Smith, Lorenzo Mauldin, Deon Simon....All good picks at value where they should have been picked.  I don't blame him for drafting Devin Smith, the kid was good.  He just can't stay healthy, and never got to come around.

Jordan Jenkins, Brandon Shell, Charone Peake...all good picks where they were picked in the draft.  Jury is out on Lac Edwards, but a 7th round pick for a punter which we needed...why not.

We can't judge this years crop at all.

And what about the value he has found in the UDFA.  He has done well, in my opinion.

BUT....my concern, which I have never stated I don't think, when we hired him was the history of drafting within the Houston Texans franchise over the QB position.  It seems that after David Carr, the franchise got scared to draft one in case it busted.  I don't think Carr was a bad pick; the decision to never protect him with some OL talent was the problem. 

But then, over a decade, they virtually ignored the position.  I get it; they had Schaub, but they should have been drafting somebody.

If Mac cannot hit on a QB, this debate that keeps getting over played ad-nausea will be for nought. Mac will not be here.  Petty was a good try;  I wanted Petty draft, had him in every one of my Mock drafts because I thought it was a good risk/reward pick in rounds 4 or 5.  Hackenberg I would have taken in about the same rounds as Petty to try, but I wanted Paxton Lynch drafted, especially considering the value at where we could have gotten him. 

Now, IF he is still the GM next year, AND he misses on the QB again, he will be shown the door. 

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Lorenzo Mauldin is a plus pick now?  GTFO.  I mean, I like his story and he isn't a total zero, but that pick was not a hit.  I am not going to blow the guy up for picking Smith or Mauldin, but those are not "good picks".  Deon Simon was cut and sat on the practice squad.  That is like saying Idzik had a good draft because of Enunwa.  

Jordan Jenkins seems fine, but Shell and Burris were only part-time starters.  We will find out if they are sh*tty picks or not this year.  Charone Peake is somebody that gets touted here, but has a way to go to reach Dedric Ward status.  It isn't like he was held back by vets - he was beat out by two UDFA.  Those guys were pleasant surprises, but eh.

 

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