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idzik.. just how bad was he at drafting players ? ? ?

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Just now, phill1c said:

Wow, this old chestnut.

When you guys get something you NEVER let it go!!

Fitzpatrick is gone. The money spent on him is gone. The cap implications going forward are ZERO.

Believe me, I didn't want him signed but I understand the logic of signing him.

Nope. You Mac-lovers are wrong yet again

 

Fitz has $5 million in dead cap hit this upcoming season

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4 minutes ago, thadude said:

Nope.  Not true.  Fitz was never significantly better than Geno

LOL

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9 minutes ago, phill1c said:

So, it's really all about vindicating your opinion, isn't it?

Sign Fitzpatrick, don't sign him. What's the difference? They were, rightly, planning on red-shirting Hackenburg anyway. They didn't have the talent to compete in several areas. Decker got hurt, the defense sucked. Other QBs finally got time to play eventually and then they got injured. Rookies got playing time when they earned it, not because nobody else was standing in their way. Last season was doomed; nothing could save it. Why the crying over it when the result was a clean slate and a sanctioned rebuild?

You don't get to a rebuild without some eggs breaking. Basically, all this bellyaching seems to say "Darn, I wish I had a good omelet...dam, look at all these broken eggs"

 

Well, it's not about hindsight. And I really don't need to validate my opinion on that one because Fitzpatrick failed miserably beating me to it. 

But yeah, it would've been much more useful to carry only three QBs so that Petty would get all the backup reps and Hack would get all the scout team reps. Instead, you had Geno getting the backup reps and Petty and Hack uselessly splitting the scout team reps. Everyone hates Geno, fine, that would make him that much easier to pull to see if Petty had anything to show. I had no love for Geno either, I was just a gazillion percent certain that Fitzpatrick wasn't worth $12M more than him. In the end, they paid Fitz to be the worst QB in the league because Geno was the worst QB in the league a couple years' prior. 

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12 minutes ago, phill1c said:

It was Maccagnan's mistake of breaking Geno Smith's jaw? That's what precipitated all of this.

I recognize the circumstances of his situation and feel he made moves that were logical, as regards not sacrificing cap space for no benefit and for not blowing up a 10-win team.

What would you have done differently that would have guaranteed a better result?

What would I have done differently?  I have been railing on about this for years.  NOT paid Fitzpatrick more than $8M per.  I can see paying Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist though I did not actually love it, but Cromartie?  No ******* way.  The logic of his moves comes in reaction to his prior moves, many of which were questionable at best.  Do you really think he was aiming at a "rebuild" paying old guys like Revis, Cromartie, and Harris?  

I do not give a guy that spent all that money positives for "draft position"  Draft position is an indication of a GM doing a sh*tty job.  Why spend if you are aiming for "draft position"?  For saving money by cutting veterans that he signed?  You generally try not to sign guys to multi-year contracts when you only want them for a year.  That is on him.

 

  • Quote

    Young players got to be eased into roles, while still having the veteran presence to learn from.

This is the on that hurts and the one where I can most clearly give an example of what I disagree with.  Breno Giacomini was one of the vets he kept around for presence for the kids to learn from.  Problem is, he and his $5M unguaranteed salary was on the PUP list.  He played 5 games, all in the middle of the season while they rolled with Ijalana and Qvale.  Those guys are not exactly savvy vets to teach Shell, but why pay $5M for a guy that isn't ready to start the season?  Maybe there was some kind of injury clause in his deal?  I doubt it though.

There is plenty I would have done different and I have been saying it all along.  I certainly wouldn't be looking at accolades for draft position when I had two offseasons (now 3) to shape the roster.

 

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18 minutes ago, slats said:

You keep saying 10-win team over and over again, but that's inconsequential. The GM and HC should've been able to recognize those ten wins for the mirage that they were. Fitz wasn't good and the team wasn't good, they just played worse, more banged up teams every week. 

I say it because it's an actual fact, A fact that you keep, seemingly, downplaying and/or ignoring.

They should have recognized it for a mirage and done what?? I don't see anything productive to do beyond what they did. And you sure haven't told me.

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What would I have done differently?  I have been railing on about this for years.  NOT paid Fitzpatrick more than $8M per.  I can see paying Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist though I did not actually love it, but Cromartie?  No ******* way.  The logic of his moves comes in reaction to his prior moves, many of which were questionable at best.  Do you really think he was aiming at a "rebuild" paying old guys like Revis, Cromartie, and Harris?  

I do not give a guy that spent all that money positives for "draft position"  Draft position is an indication of a GM doing a sh*tty job.  Why spend if you are aiming for "draft position"?  For saving money by cutting veterans that he signed?  You generally try not to sign guys to multi-year contracts when you only want them for a year.  That is on him.

 

  •  

This is the on that hurts and the one where I can most clearly give an example of what I disagree with.  Breno Giacomini was one of the vets he kept around for presence for the kids to learn from.  Problem is, he and his $5M unguaranteed salary was on the PUP list.  He played 5 games, all in the middle of the season while they rolled with Ijalana and Qvale.  Those guys are not exactly savvy vets to teach Shell, but why pay $5M for a guy that isn't ready to start the season?  Maybe there was some kind of injury clause in his deal?  I doubt it though.

There is plenty I would have done different and I have been saying it all along.  I certainly wouldn't be looking at accolades for draft position when I had two offseasons (now 3) to shape the roster.

 

The suggestion that the team was right to make bad signings because it led to higher draft picks has to be the strangest rationalization I've read in some time.

A team can tank for draft picks without sinking its future flexibility into ill-conceived, dead-end, expensive players. Hell, we're doing that very thing this year.

What's worse is they could have held Snacks for another 4-5 years, and lowered Mo's long term cap numbers significantly, and the only net expense would have been expensive players they never should have signed/re-signed in the first place. 

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18 minutes ago, thadude said:

Nope. You Mac-lovers are wrong yet again

 

Fitz has $5 million in dead cap hit this upcoming season

Ok, let's go sign someone of quality for that 5 million...talk about your quibbling over couch change...

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21 minutes ago, thadude said:

Nope.  Not true.  Fitz was never significantly better than Geno

I agree, but, let's face it, Geno had as much chance of getting on Jets fans good side as I do on convincing you that he's never gotten a fair chance to succeed here.

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18 minutes ago, slats said:

Well, it's not about hindsight. And I really don't need to validate my opinion on that one because Fitzpatrick failed miserably beating me to it. 

But yeah, it would've been much more useful to carry only three QBs so that Petty would get all the backup reps and Hack would get all the scout team reps. Instead, you had Geno getting the backup reps and Petty and Hack uselessly splitting the scout team reps. Everyone hates Geno, fine, that would make him that much easier to pull to see if Petty had anything to show. I had no love for Geno either, I was just a gazillion percent certain that Fitzpatrick wasn't worth $12M more than him. In the end, they paid Fitz to be the worst QB in the league because Geno was the worst QB in the league a couple years' prior. 

sigh...yeah, and the result of your strategy is not really significantly different than what played out. Hackenburg was not going to play. Geno got some time and got injured. Petty got some time and got injured.

I know we're all smarter than the GM but, in the end, it worked out. The logjam is cleared, the fans got rid of the guy they didn't want and the Jets are in full rebuild. Not perfect but what you advocate is akin to caring about the position of deck chairs on a sinking ship.

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44 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You are praising him for making moves that were mandated by his own mistakes.

@Maxman new site banner plz

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14 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What would I have done differently?  I have been railing on about this for years.  NOT paid Fitzpatrick more than $8M per.  I can see paying Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist though I did not actually love it, but Cromartie?  No ******* way.  The logic of his moves comes in reaction to his prior moves, many of which were questionable at best.  Do you really think he was aiming at a "rebuild" paying old guys like Revis, Cromartie, and Harris?  

I do not give a guy that spent all that money positives for "draft position"  Draft position is an indication of a GM doing a sh*tty job.  Why spend if you are aiming for "draft position"?  For saving money by cutting veterans that he signed?  You generally try not to sign guys to multi-year contracts when you only want them for a year.  That is on him.

 

  •  

This is the on that hurts and the one where I can most clearly give an example of what I disagree with.  Breno Giacomini was one of the vets he kept around for presence for the kids to learn from.  Problem is, he and his $5M unguaranteed salary was on the PUP list.  He played 5 games, all in the middle of the season while they rolled with Ijalana and Qvale.  Those guys are not exactly savvy vets to teach Shell, but why pay $5M for a guy that isn't ready to start the season?  Maybe there was some kind of injury clause in his deal?  I doubt it though.

There is plenty I would have done different and I have been saying it all along.  I certainly wouldn't be looking at accolades for draft position when I had two offseasons (now 3) to shape the roster.

 

For all you would have done, I don't see a coherent plan there. I see reactions to what Mac has done. You wouldn't have paid Fitzpatrick. Ok, so you would have had Geno. And you didn't want that. And on top of that, you would have kept the underperforming Revis, Skrine, and Gilchrist??! That's as much of a compromise as anything with the result being virtually the same.

I think in the end, your 'plan' is not any better than his and sacrifices the illusion of competing after a 10-win season that SOME Jets fans believed could be built upon. It's a compromise, just like Mac had to make. And I don't see how your plan makes the Jets any better today than they are.

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5 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

@Maxman new site banner plz

New site design on the front page should be completed next week.

New forum skin could happen in August.

Rob Moore is the truth and he is going to be in the banner. Despite the fake news by @Bugg & @T0mShane :)

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2 minutes ago, phill1c said:

sigh...yeah, and the result of your strategy is not really significantly different than what played out. Hackenburg was not going to play. Geno got some time and got injured. Petty got some time and got injured.

I know we're all smarter than the GM but, in the end, it worked out. The logjam is cleared, the fans got rid of the guy they didn't want and the Jets are in full rebuild. Not perfect but what you advocate is akin to caring about the position of deck chairs on a sinking ship.

Lol @ everything being just fine when the consensus seems to be that the Jets have the weakest roster in the NFL, and have $12M less to spend in free agency going forward because of the worst starter in the NFL last year. But yeah, that's just 7% of the cap. No biggie. Deck chair change. 

 

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31 minutes ago, phill1c said:

For all you would have done, I don't see a coherent plan there. I see reactions to what Mac has done. You wouldn't have paid Fitzpatrick. Ok, so you would have had Geno. And you didn't want that. And on top of that, you would have kept the underperforming Revis, Skrine, and Gilchrist??! That's as much of a compromise as anything with the result being virtually the same.

I think in the end, your 'plan' is not any better than his and sacrifices the illusion of competing after a 10-win season that SOME Jets fans believed could be built upon. It's a compromise, just like Mac had to make. And I don't see how your plan makes the Jets any better today than they are.

I would have kept Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist.  I would have had to, thanks to the way their contracts were structured.  The problem was signing them in the first place. Skrine is probably here now mostly because, as Sperm pointed out, they had to redo his deal in order to fit Fitzpatrick in last year.  If I were GM we would not be tanking for #1 overall in my 3rd season or I'd be considering resignation.

You want a coherent plan?  Go hard after a QB.  Even Bradford is better than the sh*t we have done.  Bradford for Lee, would you do it? 

A GM does not HAVE TO do anything.  Their decisions are the results of their plans.  When the decision is as obviously stupid as paying Fitzpatrick after camp started or keeping Breno around,  it is hard to maintain confidence.

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Just now, slats said:

Lol @ everything being just fine when the consensus seems to be that the Jets have the weakest roster in the NFL, and have $12M less to spend in free agency going forward because of the worst starter in the NFL last year. But yeah, that's just 7% of the cap. No biggie. Deck chair change. 

 

Again, you haven't actually said what would be significantly different under your leadership. Crying about last season really is not a strategy...

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1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

 If I were GM we would not be tanking for #1 overall in my 3rd season or I'd be considering resignation.

At least you hope not. You can't say for sure. But it's good that you have so much confidence in doing a job you've not had any relevant experience in.

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2 hours ago, phill1c said:

Ok, let's go sign someone of quality for that 5 million...talk about your quibbling over couch change...

"Couch change" when looked at independently:

  • $12m for Fitzpatrick for his sh*tty 2016 season (passed off as less when incorrectly looked at as $7m and $5m)
  • $5m for a PUP'd Breno for 2016
  • $7m for Cromartie for 2015
  • $15m for Harris for 2015-2016
  • $6m for Revis to actually sit on a couch in 2017
  • $10m (easily $2-3m/yr additional) for painting himself into a corner on B.Winters
  • $3m for Jarvis Jenkins for 2016
  • $5.5m for Ijalana for 2017
  • $9m guaranteed (plus losing a 5th round comp pick) for 31-32 yr old Matt Forte for 2016-17
  • $6m for Josh McCown
  • $3m to keep Richardson in a dead-end 2016, instead of taking a good 2017 draft pick, which has led to paying another $8m for him in this tear-down 2017 season because now he has so little trade value.

So this "couch change" alone adds up to about $90m. It is gross negligence.

Not only is there additional "couch change" on top of this, but it doesn't count the other $33m of the staggering $39m for 2 years of an obviously past-his-prime Revis. 

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3 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

I would have kept Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist.  I would have had to, thank to the way their contracts were structured.  The problem was signing them in the first place. Skrine is probably here now mostly because, as Sperm pointed out, they had to redo his deal in order to fit Fitzpatrick in last year.  If I were GM we would not be tanking for #1 overall in my 3rd season or I'd be considering resignation.

You want a coherent plan?  Go hard after a QB.  Even Bradford is better than the sh*t we have done.  Bradford for Lee, would you do it? 

A GM does not HAVE TO do anything.  Their decisions are the results of their plans.  When the decision is as obviously stupid as paying Fitzpatrick after camp started or keeping Breno around,  it is hard to maintain confidence.

So, the problem was in signing them in the first place. Ok, but they won 10 games that first year, one or two less INTs from being a playoff team. and they didn't play that badly.

Again, it's one thing to use hindsight to say what you wouldn't have done. It's the EASIEST thing in sports fandumb to do.

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Just now, phill1c said:

Again, you haven't actually said what would be significantly different under your leadership. Crying about last season really is not a strategy...

You have a number of people here saying the same things to you, I don't need to repeat them. His bad contracts put him in a position where he couldn't unload certain players that should've been unloaded. Restructured contracts hurting him further. He's placed no positional value in his BAP philosophy, spending high picks on safeties and LBs while having no answers at QB, edge rusher, or left tackle. It's frustrating to me because he's the kind of guy I want in the job, someone from the talent side of the business. And I don't think he's drafting players nearly as bad as the previous regime, but he's shown no nose for the business side of the job. The part that I think should be easy. He'd be doing a lot better with an Idzik by his side. 

We're finishing up here. Your defenses of Maccagnan are really not effective, you just seem to enjoy baiting responses. Which is fine, Max likes posts. But I'm eventually gonna have enough. 

I'd like to defend Maccagnan, too, honestly. I hope Hackenberg breaks all of Tom Brady's records while some posters here continue to complain about him. But this is Mac's third year at the helm, and the Jets roster may just be the league's worst. That's a tough position to defend. Tough to say, hey, this guy's doing things the smart way - just look! Yet that's what you're trying to convince us of. Good luck. 

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2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

"Couch change" when looked at independently:

  • $12m for Fitzpatrick for his sh*tty 2016 season (passed off as less when incorrectly looked at as $7m and $5m)
  • $5m for a PUP'd Breno for 2016
  • $7m for Cromartie for 2015
  • $15m for Harris for 2015-2016
  • $6m for Revis to actually sit on a couch in 2017
  • $10m (easily $2-3m/yr additional) for painting himself into a corner on B.Winters
  • $3m for Jarvis Jenkins for 2016
  • $5.5m for Ijalana for 2017
  • $9m guaranteed (plus losing a 5th round comp pick) for 31-32 yr old Matt Forte for 2016-17
  • $6m for Josh McCown
  • $3m to keep Richardson in a dead-end 2016, instead of taking a good 2017 draft pick, which has led to paying another $8m for him in this tear-down 2017 season because now he has so little trade value.

So this "couch change" alone adds up to about $90m. It is gross negligence.

Not only is there additional "couch change" on top of this, but it doesn't count the other $33m of the staggering $39m for 2 years of an obviously past-his-prime Revis. 

Ok this is just crazy:

First of all, I said couch change to describe the dead money owed to Fitzpatrick. So, you've actually changed my opinion AGAIN to suit your own nefarious purposes. Seriously, can you stop doing that?

Secondly, it costs money to pay players. You've lumped all these contracts into one incoherent bash.I could defend a number of them but since you really just listed a bunch of contracts without saying why you find them "gross negligence" I'll decline to comment.

Seriously, please stop amending my opinions. I'm begging you...

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1 minute ago, slats said:

We're finishing up here. Your defenses of Maccagnan are really not effective, you just seem to enjoy baiting responses. Which is fine, Max likes posts. But I'm eventually gonna have enough. 

Wow, let me know when we're done. I see you're in charge of debate  around here.

I feel they ARE effective. I've gotten a couple of "likes". Where are YOUR likes?

I don't see why you're taking a personal insult to my opinions. Mature people can disagree. I understand you don't appreciate the job Maccagnan has done. Ok, but you don't have to get upset that you've been challenged, do you? Post, don't post. But why do you feel a need to cut off debate? You can stop posting anytime without telling me you are. That's just immature and hostile for no good reason.

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8 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Secondly, it costs money to pay players.

SPERM (nefarious, bad fan, ruthlessly amending opinions)  : Here is a list of terrible contracts Maccagnan has handed out.

PHILL1C (smart, discerning, sees big picture): money can be exchanged for goods and services

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3 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Wow, let me know when we're done. I see you're in charge of debate  around here.

I feel they ARE effective. I've gotten a couple of "likes". Where are YOUR likes?

I don't see why you're taking a personal insult to my opinions. Mature people can disagree. I understand you don't appreciate the job Maccagnan has done. Ok, but you don't have to get upset that you've been challenged, do you? Post, don't post. But why do you feel a need to cut off debate? You can stop posting anytime without telling me you are. That's just immature and hostile for no good reason.

That's the problem, see? You're not challenging me. And lol @ you calling me immature and hostile while simultaneously saying that I'm taking a personal insult to your opinions. 

You're doing little but belittling arguments against the job Maccagnan's done without making any real case for what he's done so far. You think he was smart to stay the course because 10-win season, I think he was foolish to not recognize those 10 wins were a mirage. Fitzpatrick wasn't good, he was lucky, and the GM needs to be able to tell the difference even when Manish Mehta might be saying something else. Plain and simple. It's the job of the talent evaluator in charge to recognize the talent he has and pay it accordingly. He bought into the hype of those 10 wins when a smart executive would've seen thru it. Would've made the tough calls instead of the so-called fan pleasing ones (i.e.: paying Fitzpatrick). 

Three years in, perhaps the worst roster in the league. That's my position. Your position is that he's doing things the smart way. Defend your position. Try to be mature about it. 

 

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24 minutes ago, phill1c said:

Ok this is just crazy:

First of all, I said couch change to describe the dead money owed to Fitzpatrick. So, you've actually changed my opinion AGAIN to suit your own nefarious purposes. Seriously, can you stop doing that?

Secondly, it costs money to pay players. You've lumped all these contracts into one incoherent bash.I could defend a number of them but since you really just listed a bunch of contracts without saying why you find them "gross negligence" I'll decline to comment.

Seriously, please stop amending my opinions. I'm begging you...

Great logic.  $5M is "couch change" then when we show how decisions like this quickly add up to $90M+ you whine "that's not what I said."  

You have to pay players, you don't have to overpay by $90M or set up deals so that you are paying 2nd highest in the league dead money. 

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