Timeline to the Tank; How did Maccagnan and Company get Here?

[AFJF]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In fairness to Glenn, the only way to make the positive case for Macc is to point to things other than Macc.

I'm speaking strictly of the players Mac has acquired.  Some of them look like NFL players.  Crazy to have a GM who can draft those.

[T0mShane]

Just now, AFJF said:

I'm speaking strictly of the players Mac has acquired.  Some of them look like NFL players.  Crazy to have a GM who can draft those.

Marginal, end-of-roster NFL players. 

[AFJF]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Marginal, end-of-roster NFL players. 

Hey, an upgrade is an upgrade.

Hopefully the fact that he has shown he can identify what an NFL player looks like means he'll get better at it.

The last guy couldn't even do that much.

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Hey, an upgrade is an upgrade.

Hopefully the fact that he has shown he can identify what an NFL player looks like means he'll get better at it.

The last guy couldn't even do that much.

The only substantive difference between Mac and the last guy is that the last guy had to spend two years purging the roster of all the last coach's very expensive personal friends and family. Maccagnan only had to purge the roster of guys he overpaid himself. 

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

The only substantive difference between Mac and the last guy is that the last guy had to spend two years purging the roster of all the last coach's very expensive personal friends and family. Maccagnan only had to purge the roster of guys he overpaid himself. 

But no difference in the players drafted, no?  Still on that Jalen Saunders bandwagon, are we?

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, AFJF said:

But no difference in the players drafted, no?  Still on that Jalen Saunders bandwagon, are we?

In two years, the net will be the same. 

[AFJF]

5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In two years, the net will be the same. 

And it will always be the same as long as Belichick is in New England.  Maybe just stop wasting money on GM's?

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, AFJF said:

And it will always be the same as long as Belichick is in New England.  Maybe just stop wasting money on GM's?

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

I wonder what fans of good teams argue about.

 

[Jet Nut]

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Now now. In two years, Darron Lee will be what Calvin Pryor is now. Hack will be Geno. Devin Smith will be Jalen Saunders. Mauldin will be gone. Petty will be gone. They spent a draft pick on a punter who they already need to replace. Juston Burris is terrible and runs like a steamboat. Supporting Mac by comparing him to Idzik only reinforces how awful Macc's record is right now. Idzik's drafts were awful and he prioritized silly positions and got burned, and now Macc is repeating those same mistakes. Idzik walked into the worst cap situation in the league and inherited a coach that nobody wanted to work with. Mac doesn't even have those excuses.

Do you see dead people too?  

 

[RutgersJetFan]

10 minutes ago, AFJF said:

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

Way to aim high there Glenn. 

[AFJF]

Just now, RutgersJetFan said:

Way to aim high there Glenn. 

Way to leave out the part where I asked what fans of good teams argue about.

[T0mShane]

15 minutes ago, AFJF said:

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO, and Devin Smith wasn't cut within his first month in the NFL and actually caught a pass one time, surpassing Saunders' career numbers with the Jets.

I wonder what fans of good teams argue about.

 

Pryor failed because he was an idiot with zero instincts. Lee will fail because he's an idiot with zero instincts and is puny. Geno' college career and ability to throw a football justified being picked in the second round while Hack's college career and ability to throw a football rendered him undraftable. And Saunders never handed an NFL football game over to Rex's Bills by diving head first at the ten yard line while returning a kickoff, then fumbling. 

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

Pryor failed because he was an idiot with zero instincts. Lee will fail because he's an idiot with zero instincts and is puny. Geno' college career and ability to throw a football justified being picked in the second round while Hack's college career and ability to throw a football rendered him undraftable. And Saunders never handed an NFL football game over to Rex's Bills by diving head first at the ten yard line while returning a kickoff, then fumbling. 

1) Incorrect.  If Darron Lee fails, it will be because he does something stupid off the field.

2) If Hack retires tomrrow, he was a better pick than GeNOOOO

3) Kinda' hard to screw up a play in week 7 when you get cut by week 3.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, AFJF said:

1) Incorrect.  If Darron Lee fails, it will be because he does something stupid off the field.

2) If Hack retires tomrrow, he was a better pick than GeNOOOO

3) Kinda' hard to screw up a play in week 7 when you get cut by week 3.

There is no available argument you can make, either from a statistical or a talent standpoint, that Hackenberg in Round Two was as justifiable as Geno in Round Two. 

And Lee is the ILB equivalent of Pryor. It's almost eerie.

 

 

[AFJF]

Just now, T0mShane said:

There is no available argument you can make, either from a statistical or a talent standpoint, that Hackenberg in Round Two was as justifiable as Geno in Round Two. 

And Lee is the ILB equivalent of Pryor. It's almost eerie.

 

 

Geno was more bad than good in his time here.  If Hack never plays, he'll be no bad and no good.

Lee did some of the things he was drafted to do last season.  Pryor?  C'mon man?  Louisville Slugger?  I'd go with Louisville Slacker.

Consistently showed up late to meetings, made two or three big hits per season.  He was terrible.

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, AFJF said:

Geno was more bad than good in his time here.  If Hack never plays, he'll be no bad and no good.

Lee did some of the things he was drafted to do last season.  Pryor?  C'mon man?  Louisville Slugger?  I'd go with Louisville Slacker.

Consistently showed up late to meetings, made two or three big hits per season.  He was terrible.

We're talking about at the time of their drafting with Geno and Hack. 

And Lee was equally terrible, is equally problematic as a personality, and didn't even get those highlight reel hits. He got destroyed in the run game, was useless against the pass, and then missed a month with a hamstring. Then when he came back, the defense went right to hell.

[AFJF]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

We're talking about at the time of their drafting with Geno and Hack. 

And Lee was equally terrible, is equally problematic as a personality, and didn't even get those highlight reel hits. He got destroyed in the run game, was useless against the pass, and then missed a month with a hamstring. Then when he came back, the defense went right to hell.

Lee > Pryor

I say we go to the baseball forum to debate Lee Guterman vs. Tim Burke as soon as we're done here.

[T0mShane]

2 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Lee > Pryor

I say we go to the baseball forum to debate Lee Guterman vs. Tim Burke as soon as we're done here.

Guterman couldn't find his arm slot or release point? Or was that Tim Sanderson?

[AFJF]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Guterman couldn't find his arm slot or release point? Or was that Tim Sanderson?

That was Scott Sanderson, who once beat Roger Clemens and the Red Sox head-to-head on opening day.  I know because I was there.  Nasty 12-6 curve ball.

Guterman once led the Yankees in wins with 11 (IIRC) as a middle reliever.  Ahhhh, the good ole' days.

[rangerous]

5 hours ago, JiF said:

Curious which 5 you're pointing at here?  That and should we be celebrating getting the starting nod on the worst roster in the NFL?  Would these guys start any where else? 

 

adams and maye for starters. stewart and henson could be good.  as for celebrating starters on the nfl's worst roster, the thing is the talent levels on nfl teams is pretty even.  the separation is how well those players play together.  and can some jets players start for other nfl teams?  yes but the thing there is that players don't seem to adapt very well.  just because they play well for even the patsies doesn't mean they'll do the same for the jets or any other team.  and players shelf lives are pretty short.

the bottom line is many of these players will surprise and i hope they'll surprise on the positive side.

[rangerous]

1 hour ago, AFJF said:

Geno was more bad than good in his time here.  If Hack never plays, he'll be no bad and no good.

Lee did some of the things he was drafted to do last season.  Pryor?  C'mon man?  Louisville Slugger?  I'd go with Louisville Slacker.

Consistently showed up late to meetings, made two or three big hits per season.  He was terrible.

in all fairness to pryor, the defense played better when he was in there.  but he also didn't live up to his draft position.  good riddance.

[dbatesman]

5 hours ago, AFJF said:

If Darron Lee never sets foot on a football field again, he will have been a better pick than Pryor.  Hack may suck, but nobody will ever be GeNOOOO

 

Sweet merciful crap

[JustInFudge]

14 hours ago, AFJF said:

1) Incorrect.  If Darron Lee fails, it will be because he does something stupid off the field.

2) If Hack retires tomrrow, he was a better pick than GeNOOOO

3) Kinda' hard to screw up a play in week 7 when you get cut by week 3.

Totally unbiased take.  We're just talking Football, guys.

[varjet]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

There is no available argument you can make, either from a statistical or a talent standpoint, that Hackenberg in Round Two was as justifiable as Geno in Round Two. 

And Lee is the ILB equivalent of Pryor. It's almost eerie.

 

 

Geno led the Jets to an 8-8 record.  If Hack could do that, anyone wanting competitive Jets football in 2017 would do cartwheels.   Given Hack's state of developement, most would doubt he could do that.  Neither Hack nor Geno were credible 2nd round picks in today's NFL.  Geno had a better college career, Hack pro style experience.   It's a toss up which is preferable.   Probably a developmental league.

Lee is pointed down   He shares many attributes of Pryor-being undersized, under intelligent and misused.  Pryor had a very good second year   Let's see what kind of second and third years Lee puts together.   My money is that he is ok at times, but his contract is not renewed   

Mac's 2017 draft feels better than the first 2.   He really struggles with strategy.   Although 2016 was a lousy draft, one of the corners was the better pick than Lee there, and one of the corners was the better pick than Maye   

The Jets would be a better team today if they picked players other than Devin, Hack and Petty and threw 2 year money at Glennon for qb.  

[JustInFudge]

13 hours ago, rangerous said:

adams and maye for starters. stewart and henson could be good.  as for celebrating starters on the nfl's worst roster, the thing is the talent levels on nfl teams is pretty even.  the separation is how well those players play together.  and can some jets players start for other nfl teams?  yes but the thing there is that players don't seem to adapt very well.  just because they play well for even the patsies doesn't mean they'll do the same for the jets or any other team.  and players shelf lives are pretty short.

the bottom line is many of these players will surprise and i hope they'll surprise on the positive side.

He was talking about the 2016 draft specifically but yes, I've already acknowledged that I think Adams and Maye will be good players even though they wouldnt have been my selections. 

The bold comment is an interesting debate.  I do think for the most part, that teams are pretty even across the board in the NFL in regards to talent levels.  In fact, I've often said, teams dont get better, they get better QB play.  And while I think that saying is almost 95 of 100 times accurate, there are cases where teams are just talent depraved.  The Jets are one of those teams and this is one of those situations where that saying doesnt apply.  At this current state, the Jets have 1 maybe 2 players who are not even elite talents but pro-bowl level talents with the hope that they added another in Adams.  That's bad.  While I dont really put a ton of weight into the "Top 100" - the Jets had zero.  Zero players on that list. Meaning, outside of Leonard Williams (who was snubbed IMO fro the Top 100 list) - the Jets are terrible across the board.  Outside of the DL, I'm not sure the Jets have a single player who starts without question on any other team.  So, while it's cute to talk about a team coming together, no amount of unity substitutes talent.  Talent wins in the NFL.  The Jets have done an incredibly poor job of acquiring the type of talent that makes a difference on the field.  While every team needs JAGS, you cant win with a roster full of them.  You need some game changers, some difference makers and players who can take it to the next level.  Currently, the Jets have 1 guy that can make the claim and you just cant win with that, especially if you have the worst QB situation in the league. 

 

 

[AFJF]

56 minutes ago, JiF said:

Totally unbiased take.  We're just talking Football, guys.

Troof

[JustInFudge]

18 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Troof

[#27TheDominator]

2 hours ago, JiF said:

there are cases where teams are just talent depraved.  The Jets are one of those teams 

QFT!

[Dunnie]

it's like a live Beeker


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[rangerous]

8 hours ago, JiF said:

He was talking about the 2016 draft specifically but yes, I've already acknowledged that I think Adams and Maye will be good players even though they wouldnt have been my selections. 

The bold comment is an interesting debate.  I do think for the most part, that teams are pretty even across the board in the NFL in regards to talent levels.  In fact, I've often said, teams dont get better, they get better QB play.  And while I think that saying is almost 95 of 100 times accurate, there are cases where teams are just talent depraved.  The Jets are one of those teams and this is one of those situations where that saying doesnt apply.  At this current state, the Jets have 1 maybe 2 players who are not even elite talents but pro-bowl level talents with the hope that they added another in Adams.  That's bad.  While I dont really put a ton of weight into the "Top 100" - the Jets had zero.  Zero players on that list. Meaning, outside of Leonard Williams (who was snubbed IMO fro the Top 100 list) - the Jets are terrible across the board.  Outside of the DL, I'm not sure the Jets have a single player who starts without question on any other team.  So, while it's cute to talk about a team coming together, no amount of unity substitutes talent.  Talent wins in the NFL.  The Jets have done an incredibly poor job of acquiring the type of talent that makes a difference on the field.  While every team needs JAGS, you cant win with a roster full of them.  You need some game changers, some difference makers and players who can take it to the next level.  Currently, the Jets have 1 guy that can make the claim and you just cant win with that, especially if you have the worst QB situation in the league. 

 

 

i agree and disagree at the same.  or maybe i can just offer another opinion. teams make their own all pro players.  by this i mean that the players coming out of college are all very good but the team they join will put them over the top.  i think it's pretty rare to find a player so self motivated that they can really reach pro bowl levels on a bad team.  i agree about leo though.  he's at least top 5 at his position.  the funny thing too is both wilk and shelly were rated as highly as jj watts just a couple of season's ago.

but your teams got to start somewhere.  the jags, panthers, texans, ravens all started with their fair share of scrubs when they entered the league and they all managed to do pretty well for themselves.

[Yucatan Jetfan]

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