CTE Found In 90% of Donated Brains

[#27TheDominator]

13 minutes ago, JiF said:

I dont think I'm getting your point.  If you're good enough, you get paid. Just like the NFL.  

I get that but my point is, how is this surprising?  You play a game that when you enter the field, you put a helmet on to protect your head because you're about to go bash into a bunch of massive men.  Did people really think, I'm safe, I've got a helmet on?  That would be like a solider saying, I'm good, I've got my helmet on.  It helps and that's all but it doesnt mean your safe.  At least, I never felt that way.

When was it all but confirmed that Ali's Parkinson was probably brought on due to blows to the head?  

The surprising, and it will require more than just this study, is in the 90%.  Using your soldier analogy, you wear a helmet, but your not safe.  Now suppose you survive and come home and there is still a 90% chance that your brains are scrambled.  

There are guys you know are going to be punchy - the ones that keep getting knocked out.  Ronnie Lott comes to mind.  If you are just a run of the mill guy with no major issues and you still are going to have CTE?  That is something different.  It is also why this study is less impressive, since I believe it is only of people who left their brains to study because they thought there was a problem. 

PS:  This is coming from a guy that has trouble trusting anyone who has had less than three concussions.

PSS: This whole thread reminds me of Driving Mr. Albert

[jmat321]

Studied 200 brains, all thought or their relatives thought they had some neurological issues.  Most of those brains were from probably the top 1% of football players (NFL, D1, CFL, etc).  How is that a good, solid random sample?

 

[NYs Stepchild]

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. 

Some level of CTE. What exactly is "Some level" and how does "Some level" effect you? 

What is the percentage of the general population that have it?

If you've ever banged your head do 90% of you have some level of CTE? They don't say do they? I'm sure "Balance of Nature" would cure it anyway.

Please. It has been proven that athletes, including football players on average live longer healthier lives than us regular people. We really need to stop creating victims out of ever group of people.

Life is tough, especially if you're living it right. Have a great time, take chances, make poor decisions, and die young. Trust me it will have been worth it. If you don't believe me then you don't know any better. Stay home. Do not drive a car. You know how dangerous those things are? Stay away from the shower, and for Gods sake hold that hand rail when climbing the stairs. 

You healthy careful people can now commence the bashing, but I have had a much more exciting life than you, and my stories are way better. 

Not one good story has ever started with a good decision. 

[RutgersJetFan]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

The surprising, and it will require more than just this study, is in the 90%.  Using your soldier analogy, you wear a helmet, but your not safe.  Now suppose you survive and come home and there is still a 90% chance that your brains are scrambled. 

If you're really going to stick with that sh*t, you also need to include the fact that in this scenario, the Army is telling you everything is fine, suppressing all research that argues contrary, and bribing scholars to write articles and fabricate evidence that says otherwise. And they do this for decades, even when you start telling your superiors that you don't feel well.

And then the best part? When your central nervous system is a bowl of clam chowder by the time you're in your 40s, jackoffs on the Internet start lecturing you that you should have known better.

[T0mShane]

My brain is sh*t and I will die miserably. I would have liked a solid ten year stretch of making millions of dollars and crushing groupies. But alas.

[The Crusher]

3 hours ago, rangerous said:

i agree with this.  i also think each position should have a weight limit assigned such as, linemen can be 250-275 lbs, wr's-180-190 lbs, lb's-210-240 lbs and so on. or teams should only be able to field an aggregate weight such as 2500 lbs for the defense or offense.  that would cut down the players who need to take steroids to get larger.

No personal attacks please 

[HessStation]

But I already sorta don't give a sh*t about football anyway. 

[#27TheDominator]

21 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

If you're really going to stick with that sh*t, you also need to include the fact that in this scenario, the Army is telling you everything is fine, suppressing all research that argues contrary, and bribing scholars to write articles and fabricate evidence that says otherwise. And they do this for decades, even when you start telling your superiors that you don't feel well.

And then the best part? When your central nervous system is a bowl of clam chowder by the time you're in your 40s, jackoffs on the Internet start lecturing you that you should have known better.

Project MKUltra?

15 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

My brain is sh*t and I will die miserably. I would have liked a solid ten year stretch of making millions of dollars and crushing groupies. But alas.

Ah, the perils of the English Lit major!

[Jet_Engine1]

19 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

If you're really going to stick with that sh*t, you also need to include the fact that in this scenario, the Army is telling you everything is fine, suppressing all research that argues contrary, and bribing scholars to write articles and fabricate evidence that says otherwise. And they do this for decades, even when you start telling your superiors that you don't feel well.

And then the best part? When your central nervous system is a bowl of clam chowder by the time you're in your 40s, jackoffs on the Internet start lecturing you that you should have known better.

LOL. That's some ignorant sh*t right there. Would you like to discuss the VA and the Department of Defense and its willfulness to be forthcoming in reference to health related issues in Veterans?  Have you seen one of those Mesothelioma Ads on TV? They knew as far back as the 30s that Asbestos was a carcinogen, but they needed it as heat resistant insulation in Ships and Tanks.

They fought claims of toxic exposure to Agent Orange for Decades. They lied about the dangers of DU Rounds both before and after discharge for years. They're still denying guys were exposed to toxic levels of chemicals in the 1991 War (Gulf War Syndrome). ****, they drowned about 20 guys trying to prove the Bradley Fighting Vehicle could float (spoiler: it couldn't), and a good friend of my Wiife's family was killed in an early V-22 Osprey crash that killed about 22 Marines because the thing wasn't ready to fly...they blamed the dead pilot.

 

Anybody that has been to Jump School and beyond has knee and back problems. Every Grunt in the world has arthritis etc for LIFE.

 

Firefighters have an exponentially higher risk for Cancer than desk jockeys will ever face.

 

Life is hard. Its dangerous.

 

 

The difference between the scenarios? Only one group has a potential payout of MILLIONS of Dollars and Generational wealth (after having a free College Degree bequeathed to them for playing a game). Soldiers get sh*t on, and then sh*t on some more, and many times have to rely on the Dysfunctional, corrupt VA for their healthcare.

 

Yeah. Poor put upon Ball Players. Cry me a river.

 

As for the stats, ALL the brains they tested were ballplayers. Maybe EVERYBODY gets CTE "at some level". Maybe the risk factor is life.

[T0mShane]

8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Ah, the perils of the English Lit major!

Try writing a paper on Derrida while drinking a twelver of Sam Adams and see how many brain cells you have left when it's all said and done, pal.

[JetsFanatic]

The one deficiency in this test result was that the families that donated the brains of the deceased NFL players were witnessing erratic behavior, meaning it wasn't a true cross section of former players.  I'm sure a more scientific selection process would have decreased the 99% finding.

 

https://www.thescore.com/nfl/news/1338752-study-finds-cte-in-99-percent-of-deceased-nfl-players

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a degenerative brain disease believed to be caused by repeated impacts to the head, was discovered in 99 percent of the brains of deceased NFL players in a recent study.

The findings were published in the medical journal JAMA.

The brains of 202 former football players (including high school, college, semi-pro, CFL, and NFL) were donated for the study.

CTE was diagnosed in 177 of the 202 brains, including 110 of the 111 former NFL players.

The study found CTE to be less severe in the brains of former high school players who did not continue to play football in college or the pros.

CTE can only be diagnosed with an autopsy.

The study does note a possible bias in that symptoms of CTE, including cognitive, mood and behavioral changes, may have motivated families of the deceased players to donate their brains for study.

Therefore, the study notes that it cannot be assumed that CTE is prevalent at the same rates among the entire football-playing population.

 

[Warfish]

What % of brains in a control group showed signs of CTE?

I.e. donated brains that were "average" in all ways, not NFL players.

I'm going to tell you, I expect most brains, of most people (but especially men) to show some signs of CTE.  

[The Crusher]

7 minutes ago, Warfish said:

What % of brains in a control group showed signs of CTE?

I.e. donated brains that were "average" in all ways, not NFL players.

I'm going to tell you, I expect most brains, of most people (but especially men) to show some signs of CTE.  

Considering marriage is basically smashing your head against a wall... so yes. 

[RutgersJetFan]

56 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Project MKUltra?

Son of a bitch. I think that's the first time I have ever seen anyone pull that reference off.

[RutgersJetFan]

51 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Try writing a paper on Derrida while drinking a twelver of Sam Adams and see how many brain cells you have left when it's all said and done, pal.

This sums up doctorate life about as well as anything.

[TuscanyTile2]

4 hours ago, rangerous said:

i agree with this.  i also think each position should have a weight limit assigned such as, linemen can be 250-275 lbs, wr's-180-190 lbs, lb's-210-240 lbs and so on. or teams should only be able to field an aggregate weight such as 2500 lbs for the defense or offense.  that would cut down the players who need to take steroids to get larger.

That's an interesting proposal.  Would it be like boxing though where you "make weight" the night before and then gain 20 lbs overnight?

[greenwave81]

5 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I didn't read the article but my same question remains as I've had before.

Do they have a a blind control test with as many brains of non football players as football players and is the testing done bind?

 

 

No, and that is a question that needs to be answered.

I also find it interesting that fully 48/53 COLLEGE football players showed evidence of CTE, which raises a few points:

1.  did this number include the NFL players (who had previously played in college)? Or does it include only players that played in college and not in the BFL?

2. If 48/53 'college only' players also show evidence of CTE at autopsy I would think the NFL lawyers would be salivating over that fact...that's 90% of players who played in college before the NFL ALREADY show signs of damage...true, playing in the NFL raises the 90% rate from college to 99%, but it's not like the NFL is the sole cause of CTE.  Now, this is a very small sample size admittedly so extrapolation is difficult...but the concept of pre-existing damage before the NFL introduces other potential 'parties' to lawsuits etc.

3.  If this is truly the case, that 90% of college football athletes show signs of CTE at death, and this damage is found to be consistently detrimental to the athlete mental health, the next question is going to be 'should there even be college football to begin with'.  The kids are supposedly to college to get an education, and they're leaving with brain damage?

[greenwave81]

2 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. 

Some level of CTE. What exactly is "Some level" and how does "Some level" effect you? 

What is the percentage of the general population that have it?

If you've ever banged your head do 90% of you have some level of CTE? They don't say do they? I'm sure "Balance of Nature" would cure it anyway.

Please. It has been proven that athletes, including football players on average live longer healthier lives than us regular people. We really need to stop creating victims out of ever group of people.

Life is tough, especially if you're living it right. Have a great time, take chances, make poor decisions, and die young. Trust me it will have been worth it. If you don't believe me then you don't know any better. Stay home. Do not drive a car. You know how dangerous those things are? Stay away from the shower, and for Gods sake hold that hand rail when climbing the stairs. 

You healthy careful people can now commence the bashing, but I have had a much more exciting life than you, and my stories are way better. 

Not one good story has ever started with a good decision. 

I agree 100%.

What's the percentage of 'some level of CTE' exists in non-football players brains at death?  Without knowing that, as well as, what percentage of people with 'some level of CTE' actually exhibited cognitive or functional difficulties before their death, the reported percentages may or may not be representative of a problem.

[Matt39]

4 hours ago, RoadFan said:

You're proving my point.

What Pediatric neurologists have you talked to?  I know a few that would disagree.

There are even advocates to prevent heading the ball in girls soccer before a certain age.

Everything has a risk. Tens of millions of kids have played high school football and have lived perfectly fine lives. There's no more risk in playing high school football than getting your drivers license at 16.

[thshadow]

6 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Everybody knew that football was a risk, but there is a pretty big difference between a risk and a certainty.  90% is basically a certainty of CTE.  

I think players thought that they'd be limping for the rest of their lives - not depressed / suicidal / crazy.

 

[Gas2No99]

7 minutes ago, thshadow said:

I think players thought that they'd be limping for the rest of their lives - not depressed / suicidal / crazy.

 

What makes them so exceptional than the rest of the world in THAT regard? The limp got them a fat paycheck and a solid pension, why should they be excluded from depression, suicidal thoughts, and being bat-$hit crazy like the rest of society that didn't play pro sports?

[jeremy2020]

The NFL players should be worried because it provides an out to the NFL that CTE develops from playing Football long before they get to the NFL and seems to have little to do with the NFL itself. The NFL could very well use this study against the players showing they suffered long before entering the NFL. It indicates it has more to do with the amount of time spent playing so if they spent 15 years playing football in the XFL they would have the same issue. 

I would not be surprised if the players try to discredit this study which openly admits that it used selection bias in looking only at players suspected to have CTE AND had no control group. The study also talks about how it the 1st study of this size and scope which would also hinder any attempts players make to say the NFL had some special knowledge that it kept from players.

I believe there's a link there, but there is a link between typing / carpal tunnel and a link between sitting all day and back problems. I have as much information as my employer does on these issues so when I encounter these problems later on in life...should I come back and demand my employer "fix me" because they did not specifically inform me of the risk?

 

[thebuzzardman]

10 hours ago, Warfish said:

What % of brains in a control group showed signs of CTE?

I.e. donated brains that were "average" in all ways, not NFL players.

I'm going to tell you, I expect most brains, of most people (but especially men) to show some signs of CTE.  

You know who has a high level of CTE? Jet fans, that's who. I mean, 40+ years of banging your head against the walls? Lucky I can tie my shoes. 

[Sperm Edwards]

This data only seems so damning because they're stacking the deck.

Generally they only donate the CTE brains since their families can't use them. The families keep the ones that are still in good, usable condition in case they need it for a future transplant.

A Hans Delbrück brain doesn't get donated, except in movies.

 

[Jet_Engine1]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

This data only seems so damning because they're stacking the deck.

Generally they only donate the CTE brains since their families can't use them. The families keep the ones that are still in good, usable condition in case they need it for a future transplant.

A Hans Delbrück brain doesn't get donated, except in movies.

 

So, are you telling me I put an abnormal brain, into a 6'5 300 pound monster?

[LIJetsFan]

14 hours ago, nycdan said:

Let's break it down a bit.  Nobody is risking their brain health for education (how ironic), life lessons, toughness, teamwork, strategy, structure, pride, commitment or sacrifice.  Waste of bandwidth there.

However, sex with hot chicks and money.  Teenage boys/men will line up around the planet for those, damn the consequences.  

Now while this comes across as snarky, it's actually a serious point.  20-year olds, IMO, do not have the long term judgment to make that decision.  At that age they are raging meat-sacks of hormones and still believe they are invincible.  20 years later they will all regret it and be suing the league anyway.  It's not as simple as saying "let them choose".  

I love football, but if the cost is this high, it may be time to rethink the game a bit.

 

 

 

I agree with this pretty much, except for the "fact" that the cost is too high.  Do we really know that?  I might be dead wrong but aren't they mainly studying the brains of those who had symptoms in life and so volunteed to be tested after death?  Is this really a valid sample of all football players?  

[nycdan]

2 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

I agree with this pretty much, except for the "fact" that the cost is too high.  Do we really know that?  I might be dead wrong but aren't they mainly studying the brains of those who had symptoms in life and so volunteed to be tested after death?  Is this really a valid sample of all football players?  

Fair question.  Flawed and downright misguided research happens all the time.  This is what I do professionally (well some of what) and I see it constantly.  I'm not jumping to the conclusion yet either.  Just raising the question about how we might look at letting young men choose between short-term gain and long-term health and survival (if the conclusions become validated in a way most can agree on). 

I'm all about individual right to choose in most things, even if that means people making bad choices.  I even think people should be more responsible for their bad choices than many feel they should be.  But in this case, the carrot is so close and tasty, and the stick so far away, that I would question if, at the age of 20, an average man is going to be able to fully comprehend all of the factors.  Not saying most 30-year olds would do any better either

By the way, one more thought I had on this (that makes 3...a personal record!).  The NFL has a choice to make soon.  In the past they 'sponsored' biased research.  Much like the cigarette industry did in the past and the climate-change-deniers are doing today (whichever side of the debate you are on, there is some very lame 'research' being thrown around right now).  The NFL can choose to get real about the research and accept whatever the conclusions are and evolve the game, or it can continue to support the financially prudent position no matter what the facts are.  I hope its the first.  I really do.  The game can be modified and still be awesome.  But if the league goes into 'circle the wagons' mode on this, I think it will be far worse for them in the long run.

 

 

[joewilly12]

CTE? 

[#27TheDominator]

I was thinking that we were all getting on this study a little too hard. It is just a first step.  Basically, it says that if you played ball and show symptoms you almost definitely had CTE.  

The Times had a pretty interesting 3 part piece about hockey enforcers (I guess it was 5 years ago eek) which covered the spectrum of symptoms that you get from having concussions.  I forget how many there are - I had a bunch.  It depends who you ask as to how many.  My crazy cousin had more.  We were reading them saying "I have that!"  We both tried to judge my grandfather who had been dead for about 20 years at that point.  He had the vast majority.  He fought at the Garden twice in the 20's or early 30's.  The only one I remember being sure he didn't have was "substance abuse".  

To tell the truth, after looking at the symptoms and discussing them it was where I started to joke that I don't trust anybody that hasn't had at least 3 concussions.  For instance, I don't tend to get along with people that don't show any signs of aggressive behavior.  Looking at what they currently call CTE symptoms, I can argue I have none, and they seem more invasive than what I remembered from the Times article.

This morning I amended my thoughts on this study.  I thought it was just some initial findings and the board was blowing it out of proportion.  Then today I got three texts forwarding me Football on the Brink and The End is Nigh articles and the front page of the paper in DC has 111 NFL Brains: 110 with CTE. If that is what people are getting from this, I guess we should be bashing the study as biased. It's just some nerds trying to get funding for their research.

[nycdan]

Well as we know...87.45% of all statistics are made up.

[chirorob]

19 hours ago, Beerfish said:

I didn't read the article but my same question remains as I've had before.

Do they have a a blind control test with as many brains of non football players as football players and is the testing done bind?

That was the same point I was going to make.

What about other sports?   Football is too dangerous, but MMA is becoming more and more popular.   What about soccer?   What about gymnastics?   The punishment those girls go through is insane.

[56mehl56]

18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Everybody knew that football was a risk, but there is a pretty big difference between a risk and a certainty.  90% is basically a certainty of CTE.  

But is it really. The 90% is coming from brains of players who died whose families agreed to do the research. It's human nature to get involved in a cause when your loved ones are affected. My question is of those 110 players how many showed no obvious signs or symptoms.

[56mehl56]

2 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

CTE? 

CTB - Clueless Todd Bowles

[#27TheDominator]

8 minutes ago, 56mehl56 said:

But is it really. The 90% is coming from brains of players who died whose families agreed to do the research. It's human nature to get involved in a cause when your loved ones are affected. My question is of those 110 players how many showed no obvious signs or symptoms.

That was page 1. It was a what if scenario for JiF regarding whether 90% was surprising.  If 90% of all NFL players actually end up with CTE I would say it is. I mentioned the flaws in the study at least twice since then. 

18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

The surprising, and it will require more than just this study, is in the 90%.

<snip>

There are guys you know are going to be punchy - the ones that keep getting knocked out.  Ronnie Lott comes to mind.  If you are just a run of the mill guy with no major issues and you still are going to have CTE?  That is something different.  It is also why this study is less impressive, since I believe it is only of people who left their brains to study because they thought there was a problem. 

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I was thinking that we were all getting on this study a little too hard. It is just a first step.  Basically, it says that if you played ball and show symptoms you almost definitely had CTE.  

<snip>

If that is what people are getting from this, I guess we should be bashing the study as biased. It's just some nerds trying to get funding for their research.

 

[JohnnyLV]

On 7/25/2017 at 11:59 AM, Beerfish said:

I didn't read the article but my same question remains as I've had before.

Do they have a a blind control test with as many brains of non football players as football players and is the testing done bind?

 

 

More than that, this "sample" was from brains donated for research because they had issues, that's my understanding. It's kinda close to saying 99% of donated livers from lifelong alcoholics showed signs or cirrhosis.