Costello: The Job is McCown's

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Actually the problem is you responded to my post without looking to see if I was making a statement or responding to someone else.  Its on you, dont try and turn it around.  I never said McCown would start to protect Bowles.  

WTF cant anyone say, sorry, my bad.

Um, you quoted, and therefore responded to, my question to SD.  That was our first interaction in this thread.  So, I guess I'll wait for the "sorry, my bad" now?

[Jet Nut]

Just now, nycdan said:

FWIW Ben went 13-0 as a starter.  Rookie Season Stats: 14 GP, 66.4% comp., 2,621 yards, 17 TDs, 11 INTs, 56 carries, 144 rushing yards, 1 TD.

So would you consider that a good season by Hack or Petty?  Would you expect McCown to do any better?  I'd call that a successful rookie season no matter now good the team was.  In fact, you could argue Dak's team was as good or better than Ben's.  

Ben struggles to me.  2600 yards isnt a throwing QB.  Its a game manager.  He was a product of that team, then developed into a beast.  

[nycdan]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

Ben struggles to me.  2600 yards isnt a throwing QB.  Its a game manager.  He was a product of that team, then developed into a beast.  

2,621 yards in 14 games translates to 3,000 yards in a full season.  Not Marino-esque but honestly, that would be a roaring victory for any rookie QB.  

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Um, you quoted, and therefore responded to, my question to SD.  That was our first interaction in this thread.  So, I guess I'll wait for the "sorry, my bad" now?

Um, I answered your question actually:

 

Posted 2 hours ago · Report post

   2 hours ago,  gEYno said: 

Same question.  What is the upside for Bowles in starting 11 wins in 11 seasons Josh McCown?

 

I answered:

That the 2nd round QB wasnt thrown in while unready and was given time to develop?  You know like it was done before contracts forced unprepared QBs into playing before their time?

And fans who pay money to support would have playoffs and wins to root for?  Not all fans get pleasure out of bitching and moaning about their team and then rooting for loses 

 

 YOU came back with asking me why I think it would be to save Bowles job.  I never mentioned Bowles.  

[Jet Nut]

3 minutes ago, nycdan said:

2,621 yards in 14 games translates to 3,000 yards in a full season.  Not Marino-esque but honestly, that would be a roaring victory for any rookie QB.  

But game managerish, not on a par with Marino, Cam etc, splitting hairs actually.  Doest tip the scales explaining how rookie QBs are more ready today for the NFL than before.  If anything have to factor in how the game is slanted to the QB over the old days than preparedness.  Again just saying you go with a rookie on a team that isnt as playoff ready as the Cowboys and Steelers were, youre looking at a few years of struggles more than likely

[August]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Has nothing to do with the staff.  

Bowes was set to start Geno over Fitz until IK ended that plan.  Then Fitz won 10 games, there was no scenario where he was sitting on the bench after that season.   

Now hes dealing with two extremely green QBs and a vet.  Lets see how loyal he is to the vet.  1, he hasnt been named the starter by anyone who counts and 2, how long does he start?  A couple of weeks to give Hack more time, so what if thats the case.  

That's oversimplification. I really don't want to revisit the Geno/Fitzpatrick argument. But there was a period during that season when Fitzpatrick's play tailed off so much so that there were rumblings about benching Fitzpatrick and going back to Geno. Bowles stuck with Fitzpatrick and in the short term it paid dividends.  But for the sake of the long term it would've been better to have went back to Geno with the talent on that team if he sucked then you had your answer, if he did well then it would've been worth it to continue developing him and you might've found a potential long term option at the position. And we might not have needed to draft Hackenberg in round 2. Either way questions would've been answered. The same is being repeated today going to veterans over playing the younger guys. That's the pattern with this coaching staff. Only now it's going to McCown over Hackenberg and Petty. And based on what's happening in camp McCown will be starting he's been clearly the best quarterback on the team. But I'll say this I don't think Bowles sticks with McCown as the starter as long as he did with Fitzpatrick.

[nycdan]

12 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

But game managerish, not on a par with Marino, Cam etc, splitting hairs actually.  Doest tip the scales explaining how rookie QBs are more ready today for the NFL than before.  If anything have to factor in how the game is slanted to the QB over the old days than preparedness.  Again just saying you go with a rookie on a team that isnt as playoff ready as the Cowboys and Steelers were, youre looking at a few years of struggles more than likely

Could be.  The question to me is, does waiting make for a better eventual QB or does early playing time accomplish that better.  For every Aaron Rodgers there is a Matt Ryan.  And I don't think Rodgers would have waited nearly as long on any other team (think Jimmy G on the Patriots) and might have been just as good.  No way to know.  We can debate and postulate, but with any given kid, we just can't know.

So that leaves us with what we want as fans.  In the absence of evidence to support that another year of sitting on his ass on the bench will make Hack better in 2018 and beyond, I want to see him play now.  Simple statement.  Anyone can feel free to disagree, but I don't think there is any basis for saying anyone who feels that way is wrong.

[Jet Nut]

14 minutes ago, August said:

That's oversimplification. I really don't want to revisit the Geno/Fitzpatrick argument. But there was a period during that season when Fitzpatrick's play tailed off so much so that there were rumblings about benching Fitzpatrick and going back to Geno. Bowles stuck with Fitzpatrick and in the short term it paid dividends.  But for the sake of the long term it would've been better to have went back to Geno with the talent on that team if he sucked then you had your answer, if he did well then it would've been worth it to continue developing him and you might've found a potential long term option at the position. And we might not have needed to draft Hackenberg in round 2. Either way questions would've been answered. The same is being repeated today going to veterans over playing the younger guys. That's the pattern with this coaching staff. Only now it's going to McCown over Hackenberg and Petty. And based on what's happening in camp McCown will be starting he's been clearly the best quarterback on the team. But I'll say this I don't think Bowles sticks with McCown as the starter as long as he did with Fitzpatrick.

Youre saying that Geno should have been put in during Fitzs first season?  Nope

So your whole theory is based off of year two.  One season is a trend?  I dont see it.  Its one season, not a pattern.  Thats the definition of an oversimplification 

[Stark]

It should be Hack and Petty. McCown should not play a snap. Let the kids play. Find out what you have with them. There is a reason that all the proven Vets (some overpriced) were cut.... The only way you can evaluate them is by playing them with starters. 

It's time to put Bowles on notice... You have a defense in the 3rd year of this defense that was supposed to be his strength. Lets see it! I said fire Kacy Rogers, the  powers that be didn't think he was a problem. So put this season on the defense and play the young QB's.

Funny that I am going to say this but.... Rex came in with a Rookie QB who was not ready to see the field and was able to have a competitive team led by the defense. Bowles should be able to do similar.  If the kids do not perform at the QB position this year then you will have an opportunity to draft one of the 4 next year.

 

[Jet Nut]

12 minutes ago, nycdan said:

Could be.  The question to me is, does waiting make for a better eventual QB or does early playing time accomplish that better.  For every Aaron Rodgers there is a Matt Ryan.  And I don't think Rodgers would have waited nearly as long on any other team (think Jimmy G on the Patriots) and might have been just as good.  No way to know.  We can debate and postulate, but with any given kid, we just can't know.

So that leaves us with what we want as fans.  In the absence of evidence to support that another year of sitting on his ass on the bench will make Hack better in 2018 and beyond, I want to see him play now.  Simple statement.  Anyone can feel free to disagree, but I don't think there is any basis for saying anyone who feels that way is wrong.

I agree, not sure whats the best plan.  Guess its player dependent though.  

[Scott Dierking]

This year is not about who starts the year and why, it is who finishes the year, and how they look. 

All the rest is just fodder for speculation.

[Jet Nut]

6 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

This year is not about who starts the year and why, it is who finishes the year, and how they look. 

All the rest is just fodder for speculation.

All these writers want to make themselves out to being plugged in and will take the chalk when predicting the starter.  

[bitonti]

15 minutes ago, Stark said:

It should be Hack and Petty. McCown should not play a snap. Let the kids play. Find out what you have with them. 

 

If Hack and Petty can't legitimately beat out Josh "The worst starting QB in the NFL by far" McCown then the team has found out what it has:  Garbage. 

[August]

19 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Youre saying that Geno should have been put in during Fitzs first season?  Nope

So your whole theory is based off of year two.  One season is a trend?  I dont see it.  Its one season, not a pattern.  Thats the definition of an oversimplification 

Yes because Fitzpatrick was not the long term answer he was only brought in to be a backup. He filled in nicely for most of that season but between his slumping play and injury it was the perfect excuse to go back to the young guy. The "theory" is based on 2 seasons of information. Opting to stick with a veteran for weeks until he absolutely was almost forced to make a change. So it's not surprising that he's leaning towards McCown. He's been the best quarterback in camp but it's been by default and it isn't like he's clearly outperforming the young guys either.  

[Jet Nut]

Just now, August said:

Yes because Fitzpatrick was not the long term answer he was only brought in to be a backup. He filled in nicely for most of that season but between his slumping play and injury it was the perfect excuse to go back to the young guy. The "theory" is based on 2 seasons of information. Opting to stick with a veteran for weeks until he absolutely was almost forced to make a change. So it's not surprising that he's leaning towards McCown. He's been the best quarterback in camp but it's been by default and it isn't like he's clearly outperforming the young guys either.  

What young guy?  Hack wasnt anywhere near being ready for the conversation and Petty showed Bowles was right, he sucks and never should see the field other than an absolute emergency at this point.  How can anyone argue that Petty needed to be in there off of the 6 games we suffered through watching a poor kid without a clue how to play the position at this point.  The learning curve from Baylor to the NFL is huge

[Stark]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If Hack and Petty can't legitimately beat out Josh "The worst starting QB in the NFL by far" McCown then the team has found out what it has:  Garbage. 

If it is not a legitimate competition how can you have a "winner". McCown is garbage, statistically proven. Based on your statement then it would not be worth playing what we know is garbage, McCown, and maybe finding out that the kids struggle a bit but may end up being better than McCown. 

[Scott Dierking]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

All these writers want to make themselves out to being plugged in and will take the chalk when predicting the starter.  

Normal training camp bs. It is the way of the content needy media. And look at the lunatic fringe that exist just on this board, lapping up every nugget of supposed "news" and speculation, as if it were gospel.

There are many here that castigate the media for having "agendas", yet some of those people are the very first to lap it up and then pontificate on top of it.

[Scott Dierking]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If Hack and Petty can't legitimately beat out Josh "The worst starting QB in the NFL by far" McCown then the team has found out what it has:  Garbage. 

Where has it ever been written that the "best" qb starts the season? 

[bitonti]

2 minutes ago, Stark said:

If it is not a legitimate competition how can you have a "winner". McCown is garbage, statistically proven. Based on your statement then it would not be worth playing what we know is garbage, McCown, and maybe finding out that the kids struggle a bit but may end up being better than McCown. 

How is it not legitimate? 

[August]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

What young guy?  Hack wasnt anywhere near being ready for the conversation and Petty showed Bowles was right, he sucks and never should see the field other than an absolute emergency at this point.  How can anyone argue that Petty needed to be in there off of the 6 games we suffered through watching a poor kid without a clue how to play the position at this point.  The learning curve from Baylor to the NFL is huge

Geno in 2015, and then Petty 2016, and even though I kind of understood then Hackenberg in week 17. Like I already explained there is a noticeable trend. In the middle of 2015 Fitzpatrick was on a slump playing poorly, they chose to stick with Fitzpatrick instead of turning back to the young guy. Then in 2016 they rode Fitzpatrick until it was painfully obvious that they had to make a switch. They turn back to Fitzpatrick and he continues to struggle so they ride with Fitzpatrick until they had no choice but to turn to Petty, then sticking with Fitzpatrick instead of giving Hackenberg the start in week 17. That looks like a trend to me. 

[Matt39]

The issue here is the Jets have had a steady stream of the 30th-40th best QB's in football competing to start since what, 09? If Fitzpatrick didnt become such a pariah here(undeserved tbh) he could have easily been brought back, as he's clearly still better than anything on the roster.

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, August said:

Geno in 2015, and then Petty 2016, and even though I kind of understood then Hackenberg in week 17. Like I already explained there is a noticeable trend. In the middle of 2015 Fitzpatrick was on a slump playing poorly, they chose to stick with Fitzpatrick instead of turning back to the young guy. Then in 2016 they rode Fitzpatrick until it was painfully obvious that they had to make a switch. They turn back to Fitzpatrick and he continues to struggle so they ride with Fitzpatrick until they had no choice but to turn to Petty, then sticking with Fitzpatrick instead of giving Hackenberg the start in week 17. That looks like a trend to me. 

Geno was the starter in 2015, knocked out by IK and then Fitz earned the starts.  

Its only 2016 and like I said Fitz deserved it off of 15  while that one season isnt a trend never mind a noticeable one.  We see what we want to see, this is one of those cases

[HellsKitchen]

You can argue Geno got a raw deal, but Petty is a backup at best (still think 3rd or not NFL) so the fact he got starts is more than should have been expected.  Hack was not a guy you could just throw to wolves given how he came out of PSU.  The downward spiral he had under Franklin at PSU after O'Brien left was remarkable.  Unlike some guys who can come in and play I don't think anyone thought he could.  Jets hoped they could fix him, and time will tell.  He is a year 3 type guy which they over-drafted.  Expect wee see him around week 8 for the rest of year so Jets have a clue what they have (or don't have). 

[dbatesman]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Big Bens teams won in spite of him, he was not a good QB back then.  

66%, 8.9 YPA, 18 total TD, 11 INT, 98.1 passer rating, 11th in DYAR, 13-0 record, AFCCG appearance

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

Um, I answered your question actually:

 

Posted 2 hours ago · Report post

   2 hours ago,  gEYno said: 

Same question.  What is the upside for Bowles in starting 11 wins in 11 seasons Josh McCown?

 

I answered:

That the 2nd round QB wasnt thrown in while unready and was given time to develop?  You know like it was done before contracts forced unprepared QBs into playing before their time?

And fans who pay money to support would have playoffs and wins to root for?  Not all fans get pleasure out of bitching and moaning about their team and then rooting for loses 

 

 YOU came back with asking me why I think it would be to save Bowles job.  I never mentioned Bowles.  

So, the question "what is the upside for Bowles" can be answered without mentioning Bowles?  Fascinating!

[August]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Geno was the starter in 2015, knocked out by IK and then Fitz earned the starts.  

Its only 2016 and like I said Fitz deserved it off of 15  while that one season isnt a trend never mind a noticeable one.  We see what we want to see, this is one of those cases

Are you purposely skipping over when I said Fitzpatrick had a slump in the the middle of the season (vs Jax, vs Bills, at Texans) where he struggled and that was the right time to switch back to Geno? That was the first sign of the stubbornness of Bowles. I could see riding with McCown now if he was clearly beating out the young guys now, but he isn't one day Hackenberg is the best quarterback in camp then the next it's McCown. When it's that close the tie should go to Hackenberg but it sounds to me that McCown will be starting. 

[Stark]

13 minutes ago, bitonti said:

How is it not legitimate? 

So far McCown has been getting the majority of reps with the 1's. 

[Jet Nut]

3 minutes ago, gEYno said:

So, the question "what is the upside for Bowles" can be answered without mentioning Bowles?  Fascinating!

You keep bringing up Bowles, I didnt and dont give a shlt.  You asked whats the upside to playing McC and I answered, you came back with Bowles and asked about him

Can you stick to one argument and stop spinning like a f'n top?

[C Mart]

1 hour ago, flgreen said:

Because 2nd round picks are only under contract for 4 years, You'd be spending 3 years in developing him for another team.  

So if he develops and really comes on in yr 3 or yr 4 you're just going to let him walk? 

[Matt39]

14 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Geno was the starter in 2015, knocked out by IK and then Fitz earned the starts.  

Its only 2016 and like I said Fitz deserved it off of 15  while that one season isnt a trend never mind a noticeable one.  We see what we want to see, this is one of those cases

 

https://twitter.com/SNFonNBC/status/894600335200833537

 

Needs more weapons

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

https://twitter.com/SNFonNBC/status/894600335200833537

 

Needs more weapons

No thanks, that train has left the station.  

For good

Though it would make for fun times here, lol

[Scott Dierking]

4 hours ago, gEYno said:

See, I don't really understand this line of thinking at all.  Josh McCown has 11 wins in 11 seasons.  What exactly is Josh McCown going to do that meaningfully improves the short term interest in the team, saving Todd Bowles job.  Is the argument that McCown gives us a shot at a wildcard?  Is the argument that McCown may get us 6 wins and that's seen as an improvement?  Is your argument that Bowles is just being spiteful, as you allude to?  Because, there are only two ways I could see Todd Bowles keeping his job.  The first is by a young QB showing some promise this season.  My belief/fear is that Hack and Petty aren't playing because they can't even do that.  The second, if leadership was in agreement that this year is a total wash, and he's given a pass, with the opportunity to be a part of the "rebuild."  I don't see a 3rd scenario where we win "a few extra games" with Josh McCown as saving Bowles.  So, the only logical conclusion that follows is that if Hack/Petty aren't playing, it's because they're just that terrible.

I will step in here. Of course, all we are doing is speculating, because the Jets have not laid out a plan for us (nor should they).

One reason Bowles may start McCown, even though he does not represent the future of the team is that he may be looking to create team continuity and structure. Before you go off on that, let me explain.

There are still a number of veterans on this team. The NFL life cycle is short. No veteran wants to hear "we are developing a player" and are throwing away W and L's this season. Any player who is worth their salt believes that they can win wants to have that opportunity. Is it a needle in a haystack situation for this team? Of course it is. But tell that to an NFL vet who busts his ass day in and day out, just to try and have a chance at a ring in this NFL. This player does not give a damn about "on the job developing".

Of course, the Jet brass and Bowles are never going to say that this is a "tank" year to players. Just does not happen that way. If Bowles is going be here in the future (and I think that is what he wants", there also has to be a belief in him from the locker room. And part of that is trust that he will do what it takes to win games now, not games in the future. Players don't give a rat's ass about next year, or further down the road. Theirs is a "now" existence.

If Bowles does not start the qb with the best chance to win games as the season starts, he will have lost the locker room again. And that is not good.

[RSJ]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Ok - So, despite the fact that he's been around football his entire life, he simply has no clue what is going on, no ability to evaluate players, and no plan whatsoever?  That's certainly a take, I suppose.

Rex Ryan was around football his whole life too.

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Stark said:

So far McCown has been getting the majority of reps with the 1's. 

What's stopping Hack from playing well with the 2s? he's getting reps just not first team reps. in theory he could get the promotion if he deserved it. The question is what has he done with the 2's to deserve a promotion 

Today's practice he couldn't even break the huddle correctly 

http://brobible.com/sports/article/jets-qb-christian-hackenberg-huddle/

[ZachEY]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

You keep bringing up Bowles, I didnt and dont give a shlt.  You asked whats the upside to playing McC and I answered, you came back with Bowles and asked about him

Can you stick to one argument and stop spinning like a f'n top?

I'm not spinning at all.  The question, which you quoted twice was:

What is the upside for Bowles in starting 11 wins in 11 seasons Josh McCown?

for Bowles.

what is the upside for Bowles.

Is the aforementioned "my bad" coming now?