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Pointdexter

If Hackenberg fails to look as good as Watson, Kizer, and Trubisky

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5 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The Commitee is meeting this afternoon to pick a captain and we'll announce it before kickoff tonight. As committee chair, I am ineligible to serve as captain. 

Coward

@dbatesman  is the only choice if you are going to punk out.  The 2 of you are so smart and such great fans, there really is no other choice.

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Eh it don't matter .. Hack works out great if he fails that's fine too .. as long when the smoke from this season clear where in position to draft one of the 3 or 4 bluechip QB prospects .. 

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5 hours ago, Pointdexter said:

Hack has a full year of nfl experience and coaching over these kids.

Simply being on the roster does not constitute a full year of NFL experience.  It was determined early that he would be non-factor, near non-participant in his rookie season. At best, Hackenberg has the advantage of knowing where to go out and eat while on the road.  I don't know if he is into hookers, but that may be another area where he has a potential leg-up.

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At least now I know who here at JN orders their steaks well done (disgusting) and then goes on Yelp! because it didn't come out in 5 minutes. 

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2 hours ago, BCJet said:

What would you have done differently than Mac to improve the QB situation?

Was there a FA QB that we low-balled and lost to another team?  Did we let a FA QB leave the Jets who had success elsewhere?

Did we pass on someone at QB who is doing well, that most people thought was a slam dunk pick for us?

Is the position improved, no it isnt.  But would have drafting Paxton Lynch put us in better position?  What about paying Mike Glennon?  Your post implies that its easy to find a QB, anyone who is halfway decent (tyrod taylor and kirk cousins) gets paid enormously to stay with their teams.  Trubisky went before we picked leaving watson and mahomes the guys you must be referencing.  

I'll give him a pass for 2015, but his biggest mistake in 2016 (aside from bidding against himself for a journeyman that no one else in the league had any use for - let that sink in for a moment on a referendum on Mac's savvy) was having 4 QBs on the roster last year. Either we go with the 3 youngsters we had at the conclusion of the 2016 draft, or forego drafting a QB if Fitz was such a priority. This whole "derp let's redshirt a second rounder when we don't have a legit NFL starter" is just absolutely moronic in this day and age. This isn't Chad sitting behind Vinny for 2.25 years... Chad was a monster college QB who was sitting behind a guy who found the fountain of youth and was still the face of our franchise at that time. Even with all the "Chad practices horribly" reports, you knew you had something because in college he showed that something consistently for a chunk of years. That same raw as hell Chad even got into a game vs a good Raiders team and threw a TD, and on a team with MUCH better talent in the QB room.

The silver lining to no Fitz last year is we could have evaluated the young arms in 2016, now that inevitability has fallen on the Jets' lap a full year later... Yet another season to waste because our GM has the long range thought process of a mayfly.

Hack had one good season when he was 18 or 19 and no one had film on him or how O'Brien would adapt his system to college, has shat the football bed his last 3 years involved in the game. On a 2016 Jet team devoid of talent and going nowhere fast, the powers that be were so enamored with him that he took exactly zero snaps. Not even for 6-8 handoffs at the end of the game. Ok, he couldn't read a defense so he couldn't play. He could have still been given a chance to just run an NFL huddle, line guys up, and just take some game rep snaps. He wasn't even ready for that and considering how many times Morton has had to throw him out for not controlling the huddle, well you can't blame the staff for last year.

So we get to Draft day(s) 2017, we only have 2 NFL "projects"  and in a draft with QBs better than our garbage, not one QB is picked who may actually develop along a normal NFL stream (aka no redshirt BS). I have no crystal ball, I'm no clairvoyant so I don't know if any of them will pan out, but the OP is absolutely correct: If Hack, entering his SECOND NFL SEASON cannot look anywhere as good as guys who took their first NFL snaps in their FIRST MONTH as NFL players, there's no denying there's cause for concern.

That's if you still believe in Hack. Problem is he's been a sucky football player for the last 4 years. And Mac tied his wagon to him (let that sink in for a moment on a referendum on Mac's savvy) 509a396df948606aacab8f18591d8459.png?t=1

 

 

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I thought Savage was better than Watson.

Glennon was the stiff I have always thought he was and Trubisky was clearly better than him.

Alex Smith was better than Mahomes but Mahomes will be the starter next year latest.

Geno and Sanchez were Geno and Sanchez though Geno looked better than Josh Johnson.

Cant wait to see what Hack does

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Thats up to Denver Fans.  I'm not a Denver Fan.  

Didn't Denver just win a Super Bowl under Elway?  ffs man, seriously.  smh.

Well, I guess we can safety put you in the "Give Mac another shot, his fourth draft/year might be the charm!" camp.  

Do you really believe it's up to a team's fans if a GM gets fired?

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Just now, johnnysd said:

I thought Savage was better than Watson.

Glennon was the stiff I have always thought he was and Trubisky was clearly better than him.

Alex Smith was better than Mahomes but Mahomes will be the starter next year latest.

Geno and Sanchez were Geno and Sanchez though Geno looked better than Josh Johnson.

Cant wait to see what Hack does

 

 

 

Glennon had many fine preseason games. 

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17 minutes ago, glenn31 said:

I'll give him a pass for 2015, but his biggest mistake in 2016 (aside from bidding against himself for a journeyman that no one else in the league had any use for - let that sink in for a moment on a referendum on Mac's savvy) was having 4 QBs on the roster last year. Either we go with the 3 youngsters we had at the conclusion of the 2016 draft, or forego drafting a QB if Fitz was such a priority. This whole "derp let's redshirt a second rounder when we don't have a legit NFL starter" is just absolutely moronic in this day and age. This isn't Chad sitting behind Vinny for 2.25 years... Chad was a monster college QB who was sitting behind a guy who found the fountain of youth and was still the face of our franchise at that time. Even with all the "Chad practices horribly" reports, you knew you had something because in college he showed that something consistently for a chunk of years. That same raw as hell Chad even got into a game vs a good Raiders team and threw a TD, and on a team with MUCH better talent in the QB room.

The silver cloud to no Fitz last year is we could have evaluated the young arms in 2016, now that inevitability has fallen on the Jets' lap a full year later... Yet another season to waste because our GM has the long range thought process of a mayfly.

Hack had one good season when he was 18 or 19 and no one had film on him or how O'Brien would adapt his system to college, has shat the football bed his last 3 years involved in the game. On a 2016 Jet team devoid of talent and going nowhere fast, the powers that be were so enamored with him that he took exactly zero snaps. Not even for 6-8 handoffs at the end of the game. Ok, he couldn't read a defense so he couldn't play. He could have still been given a chance to just run an NFL huddle, line guys up, and just take some game rep snaps. He wasn't even ready for that and considering how many times Morton has had to throw him out for not controlling the huddle, well you can't blame the staff for last year.

So we get to Draft day(s) 2017, we only have 2 NFL "projects"  and in a draft with QBs better than our garbage, not one QB is picked who may actually develop along a normal NFL stream (aka no redshirt BS). I have no crystal ball, I'm no clairvoyant so I don't know if any of them will pan out, but the OP is absolutely correct: If Hack, entering his SECOND NFL SEASON cannot look anywhere as good as guys who took their first NFL snaps in their FIRST MONTH as NFL players, there's no denying there's cause for concern.

That's if you still believe in Hack. Problem is he's been a sucky football player for the last 4 years. And Mac tied his wagon to him (let that sink in for a moment on a referendum on Mac's savvy) 509a396df948606aacab8f18591d8459.png?t=1

 

 

friday-damn.gif

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3 hours ago, Pointdexter said:

It always amazes me with the ability of some to turn the thread into something it's not based on the straw man argument principle. 

Bottom line is if Hack can't show us equivalent "flashes" or "glimpses" or "potential" or whatever term you want to use to denote promise, in his second year, as these other qbs in their first, that is a problem. 

No amount of burying your head in the sand or fanboy excuses changes that. This is not about one preseason game, Hack was awful for his last 2 years of college, awful last preseason, and from almost all reports awful on the practice field last season. Practice reports this season aren't much better. So yes, at some point we need to see something from him and cannot keep writing things off as "one preseason game" or "one disgruntled coach" or "one hatin' reporter", etc etc etc etc

It actually amazes me that you think what a QB throwing against 3rd and 4th stringers, a handful of times is the measuring stick.  

How would you classify what Lynch is given he looked like shlt in his game after the board went nuclear because we passed on Elways genius pick

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3 hours ago, Warfish said:

What happens tonight is irrelevant.

It's what happens this year that tells the tale.

If Hackenberg is a bust, and either/or Watson and Kizer become solid NFL starting QB's, Mac (under any rational organization) would be gone for his wanton failures at the QB position after 3 years.

But we all know we're not rational, so Mac will almost assuredly get to tie the franchise down next draft with witchever QB he thinks is the best one.

Lets hope his evaluation of QB prospects has improved.

Or that Hack proves Mac wiser then we fans think he is.

 

This, in a nutshell.

For arguments sake, I believe that getting a true evaluation of Hack and waiting one more year for a better draft class was the far smarter decision.  Whether Hack busts or not doesn't change that.  It's been repeated ad-nauseum here this week.  It was never about passing on QB for someone else this year, it was about getting the best players possible for the long run and holding out for a far better class one year from now.  Kizer, Watson, etc., were not going to change our fortunes around this season.  Why gamble on them, throw away a 2nd round pick we planned on giving time to develop, when we're likely going to be picking high next year anyway?  It doesn't make any sense at all. I know you've said in the past that you don't watch much, if any, college ball so I don't know how much you really know about the QBs coming out.  They are really, really, really, good.  Picking Watson or Kizer would have guaranteed us passing on them.  That type of desperation is the stuff of nightmares.  

Look at the Paxton Lynch situation right now.  Everyone wanted him the year he came out and I, along with many others, were shouting from the heavens that he wasn't worth a first round pick and that selecting him with one would guarantee that we pass on QB for AT LEAST 3-4 drafts.  If Denver shocks the world and moves on from him next year, after trading UP for him last year, what would look worse when it's all said and done?  Denver doing THAT, or us moving on from our low 2nd round draft pick after 2 years of development and ultimately deciding that we need to spend a first on a QB in a loaded class?  Which would you rather your team do?  It's not even a defense of Macc at this point, it's just a defense of the logic that went into the decision.  We could argue for days about which  QB prospect we should have spent that 2nd round pick on, the bigger point is that a 2nd round QB doesn't have the same level of commitment that a first round pick does, especially not anymore after the new rookie wage scale.  Carolina is prime example of this.  They took Clausen high in the 2nd, saw he wasn't the answer, and felt that Cam Newton was too great of a prospect to pass on.  

Look, if I'm being honest, as much as loved Hack (I followed him back as a HS recruit for Christ's sake) my guess is that he isn't gonna end up being our guy...whether it was the PSU situation that ruined him...or him just never progressing beyond a certain point...it doesn't matter.  He was given a chance and ultimately his failure to live up to the hype will be on him.  It sucks to finally admit that because I wanted so badly to be right when it came to him.  In the end, if that's the case, he won't be my first "miss", although it will be my most disappointing one because of how much I loved the kid, and he certainly won't be my last.  However, all that being said, the silver lining in this is the fact that we didn't panic in 2016, trade up in the first for him (or even select him in the first), and can now pick our guy next season. 

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15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

For arguments sake, I believe that getting a true evaluation of Hack and waiting one more year for a better draft class was the far smarter decision.

I can respect that.  

I simply disagree.  Selecting a QB (instead of taking two safeties) would not have hurt the evaluation of Hack, and would not have stopped us in any way from picking from the supposedly better daft class of 2018.

With that said, I maintain, I am not letting the guy who brought us Fitz, McCown, Petty and Hack for the last three years select the QB of the future in 2018.  He has not earned that (again, presuming Hack busts this year).

I can respect that others feel differently, and would happily let Mac survive his three years of constant failure and give him another go.  Jets fans are nothing if not oddly patient....with some folks, at least.

15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

I know you've said in the past that you don't watch much, if any, college ball so I don't know how much you really know about the QBs coming out.  They are really, really, really, good.[/quote]

So I keep hearing.  Hard to see it from the resumes so far.  I'm smelling hype, but we'll see.  If Darnold, Allen and Rosen all become all-pro's, clearly the hype was real.

15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Picking Watson or Kizer would have guaranteed us passing on them.

That is opinion, not fact.  

15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Look at the Paxton Lynch situation right now.  Everyone wanted him the year he came out and I, along with many others, were shouting from the heavens that he wasn't worth a first round pick and that selecting him with one would guarantee that we pass on QB for AT LEAST 3-4 drafts.

I bet Lynch, today, is better than Hack, Petty and McClown.  And again, picking Lynch (which I was not for) would not, in any way, stop the Jets from picking a QB in 2018.  That is outdated, old man thinking, and it needs to stop.  Drafting QB's in 2017 is not drafting QB's in 1987.

15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

 If Denver shocks the world and moves on from him next year, after trading UP for him last year, what would look worse when it's all said and done?  Denver doing THAT, or us moving on from our low 2nd round draft pick after 2 years of development and ultimately deciding that we need to spend a first on a QB in a loaded class?

I think this is your problem:  you care how things "look".  I don't give a sh*t how things look, I care how they work, on the field, where it counts.  

15 minutes ago, Mogglez said:

Which would you rather your team do?

I'd rather my team make every effort possible to draft legitimate potential franchise QB's every year possible till we damn well find one.  I would not draft the Petty's, the reach Hackenberg's and their ilk and then pray for a forgiving fanbase when they inevitably flop.  There is no position on the modern NFL playing field that matter like QB.  I'd trade an entire draft class of all-Pro safeties for a CHANCE at a franchise QB.  That is how important QB is and comparatively irrelevant Safety is in the modern NFL.

End of the day, Mac has had three years as GM to find a QB.  If Hack busts, he failed.  And I would fire him for it, we're likely worse every single season in his tenure if we wind up where we all think this year.  That is not how one keeps his job. 

If we want to buy the hype next year, and pick Rosen or Allen or Darnold, fine.  I want a better GM with a better eye for QB talent making the pick.  I refuse to have the guy who vastly overdrafted Hackenberg (again, presuming he busts as in the OP that started these exchanges) because he was such an egotistical prick he though he knew better than the rest of the league, picking our future.

So lets all hope Hack doesn't bust.  Of course, if we follow your logic above, Hack not busting means we can't draft a QB in 2018.  Except of course we can, and almost assuredly will.  

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9 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I can respect that.  

I simply disagree.  Selecting a QB (instead of taking two safeties) would not have hurt the evaluation of Hack, and would not have stopped us in any way from picking from the supposedly better daft class of 2018.

With that said, I maintain, I am not letting the guy who brought us Fitz, McCown, Petty and Hack for the last three years select the QB of the future in 2018.  He has not earned that (again, presuming Hack busts this year).

I can respect that others feel differently, and would happily let Mac survive his three years of constant failure and give him another go.  Jets fans are nothing if not oddly patient....with some folks, at least.

So I keep hearing.  Hard to see it from the resumes so far.  I'm smelling hype, but we'll see.  If Darnold, Allen and Rosen all become all-pro's, clearly the hype was real.

That is opinion, not fact.  

I bet Lynch, today, is better than Hack, Petty and McClown.  And again, picking Lynch (which I was not for) would not, in any way, stop the Jets from picking a QB in 2018.  That is outdated, old man thinking, and it needs to stop.  Drafting QB's in 2017 is not drafting QB's in 1987.

I think this is your problem:  you care how things "look".  I don't give a sh*t how things look, I care how they work, on the field, where it counts.  

I'd rather my team make every effort possible to draft legitimate potential franchise QB's every year possible till we damn well find one.  I would not draft the Petty's, the reach Hackenberg's and their ilk and then pray for a forgiving fanbase when they inevitably flop.  There is no position on the modern NFL playing field that matter like QB.  I'd trade an entire draft class of all-Pro safeties for a CHANCE at a franchise QB.  That is how important QB is and comparatively irrelevant Safety is in the modern NFL.

End of the day, Mac has had three years as GM to find a QB.  If Hack busts, he failed.  And I would fire him for it, we're likely worse every single season in his tenure if we wind up where we all think this year.  That is not how one keeps his job. 

If we want to buy the hype next year, and pick Rosen or Allen or Darnold, fine.  I want a better GM with a better eye for QB talent making the pick.  I refuse to have the guy who vastly overdrafted Hackenberg (again, presuming he busts as in the OP that started these exchanges) because he was such an egotistical prick he though he knew better than the rest of the league, picking our future.

So lets all hope Hack doesn't bust.  Of course, if we follow your logic above, Hack not busting means we can't draft a QB in 2018.  Except of course we can, and almost assuredly will.  

Your logic is so incredibly flawed. I don't care what year it is, not all QB's look good the first year they come out. There are countless examples of QB's who look like garbage for one or more years who turn out to be very good. No team in their right mind is going to take a QB with a high 1st round pick 2 years in a row. And it has nothing to do with how it looks, and everything to do with using your resources. If you take a high 1st round pick at the QB position, you are making a  commitment to that player, and believe in that player enough to make a few year commitment to that player. If you did not like him enough to make that multiple year commitment, and you still took him with a high first, you are an absolute idiot as a GM, and are not long for the NFL.

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The most questionable logic here is at the QB position. 

We're seeing Macc killed for not drafting a number of QBs who have accomplished nothing up to now while also killing him for picking a QB who hasn't had his chance yet, has failed at nothing.

And some are willing to go to war to defend this failed position. 

 

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1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

The most questionable logic here is at the QB position. 

We're seeing Macc killed for not drafting a number of QBs who have accomplished nothing up to now while also killing for picking a QB who hasn't had his chance yet, has failed at nothing.

And some are willing to go to war to defend this failed position. 

 

I would literally die for Deshaun Watson

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26 minutes ago, Warfish said:

 I maintain, I am not letting the guy who brought us Fitz, McCown, Petty and Hack for the last three years select the QB of the future in 2018. 

I am certainly not a Mac apologist, but prior to this off season, who should he have picked in the draft or brought in as a free agent? For a while, it was pretty slim pickings if you were looking for a QB. It's tough to make champagne out of beer.

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16 hours ago, dbatesman said:

I would literally die for Deshaun Watson

I wanted him.  But most wanted no part of him.

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Just now, Jet Blast said:

I am certainly not a Mac apologist, but prior to this off season, who should he have picked in the draft or brought in as a free agent? For a while, it was pretty slim pickings if you were looking for a QB. It's tough to make champagne out of beer.

Better yet Petty was drafted to be a backup first, anything more would be a bonus.  Fitz, he was the guy they all argued for and now want to hold it against Macc for listening.  What was the option available to bring in over Fitz? Who should we have drafted at QB? 

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1 hour ago, Mogglez said:

Oh god, please no.

Realistically, one of any number of guys. I happen to think Allen is the most likely to be in that top 5 mix by next year and I think we can all agree there will be some shuffling...but I've been wrong before.

Just want a top prospect in 2018 if they're in position to draft one.

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31 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I would literally die for Deshaun Watson

Based on new information I now wish we had drafted him!

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Looking back on it, and ignoring Prescott, the Jets could have drafted another Qb last year, other than or in addition to Hack.  Kessler, Brissett, Cook may be better than one of the three they have.  They would have been better off with another young QB than Josh McCown.

Particularly with Maye looking like he does, the Jets could have taken a QB this year that also would have improved the position.   And potentially Peterman and Kaaya could have been helpful.

But this is all most as the Jets could go QB big time in the 2018 Draft.   They should go Redskins and take 2.

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1 hour ago, Jet Blast said:

I am certainly not a Mac apologist, but prior to this off season, who should he have picked in the draft or brought in as a free agent? For a while, it was pretty slim pickings if you were looking for a QB. It's tough to make champagne out of beer.

It's a fair question.  And I freely admit, I'm not an NFL GM or College Expert, so my OWN picks are exceedingly questionable.  

But since it IS a fair question, here is "What Warfish Would Have Done":

2015:  No one.  Fitz vs. Geno was fine for year #1, given a new GM and some folks thinking Geno just needed "a fair chance", shame was Geno was a moron who got his own jaw broke....  Petty in the 2nd, in that year class, was acceptable I suppose, as a body.

2016: Connor Cook, QB, Pick #83 (Third Round)

2017: Deshaun Watson, QB, Pick #6 (First Round)

So in my world, we're going in tonight with Watson/Cook/Petty and looking at BAP QB in Draft 2018.

In the real world we're going in with McCown/Hackenberg/Petty and looking at BAP QB in Draft 2018.

/shrug.  

 

EDIT:  I should stress, these were the players I wanted at that time, no hindsight involved.  I would not pretend to be a Dak Prescott guy now, after the fact.  Enough folks play that BS game as it is.  The actions above were what I advocated for in that time, and my posting record shows it.  I stand by the preferences today.

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9 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Garbage?  

So in other words a 3 part answer that says absolutely nothing.  

A Hack reference for no reason at all. 

Nice job.  Thanks for adding to the discussion.  

You're welcome. 

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