On Bowles and QBs....how to be at peace

[section314]

19 hours ago, dbatesman said:

A few more koans:

all of our QBs are terrible

we have no apparent plan to improve the position

Maccagnan is far and away the worst GM in the league

no one with a shred of credibility or competence will ever work for Woody Johnson

go Jets

Or, in the Cliff Notes version, the Jets are the North Korea of the NFL.

[ZachEY]

2 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

No matter how one tries to rationalize it or assume what Bowles actual strategy or philosophy is, the organization has cut ties with just about every veteran player to get long looks at the younger and more recent draft picks and FA signings in the hopes of rebuilding the franchise from within.  Most of us are completely on board with this,  That being said, how can the organization sit idly by and let their ignorant and stubborn head coach coach play the worst QB statistically speaking over the 3 years over either of their young QB's, no matter how unready they might be?  It's completely inconsistent with that the team is seemingly doing across the board and someone with authority within the organization has to slap Bowles in the face and tell him to start Petty or Hack. If McCown is still the starter for the home opener in week 3, there will be a fan revolt the likes we haven't seen in quite some time.  The boos will be raining from the heavens mercilessly with every snap McCown takes.  It will be completely embarrassing to the organization, and I can't believe that they don't recognize this.  

I have a very slim glimmer of hope that McCown will get the first two starts and Petty or Hack starts the rest of the way.  I just cannot believe they would let McCown start the home opener.  Even the Jets can't be that stupid, can they? 

As has been said, because there's 50 other guys on the team they need to develop, and they're not going to sacrifice all 50 of them for two horrible (the real word for your euphemism "not ready") young QBs.

You're also assuming that this organization isn't completely in agreement that McCown should start.  Considering we're never at a loss for "anonymous sources" where are the ones saying Bowles is acting alone here?

Ultimately, one of the greatest things this organization could do would be to stop listening to the dumbass fans.

[ChuckkieB]

As has been said, because there's 50 other guys on the team they need to develop, and they're not going to sacrifice all 50 of them for two horrible (the real word for your euphemism "not ready") young QBs.
You're also assuming that this organization isn't completely in agreement that McCown should start.  Considering we're never at a loss for "anonymous sources" where are the ones saying Bowles is acting alone here?
Ultimately, one of the greatest things this organization could do would be to stop listening to the dumbass fans.

Based on the seemingly abrupt and 180 degree change in practice reps and preseason game opportunities, I think it's safe to say that someone with authority got into Bowles' ear about getting better looks at Hackenberg and Petty, which leads me to believe that that there WAS some contrarian opinions about the QB position floating around the organization.

As far as Hack and Petty are concerned, yes, Hack literally doesn't look like he's even close to being NFL ready, but Petty has been decent this preseason and already has some regular season experience under his belt. There is not one logical reason why Petty shouldn't be stating week 1. In a worst case scenario, he's terrible for a few games and then you can bring in McCown to mop up, or even Hack to get a legit look at him in real games. IMO, I think this would be the best approach, and the most acceptable to the very frustrated fan base. And as far as the fan base goes, if you are playing games in empty stadiums, the owners DO take notice, so what the fans think DOES have some impact, especially when $$$ is involved.


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[ZachEY]

7 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

 

Based on the seemingly abrupt and 180 degree change in practice reps and preseason game opportunities, I think it's safe to say that someone with authority got into Bowles' ear about getting better looks at Hackenberg and Petty, which leads me to believe that that there WAS some contrarian opinions about the QB position floating around the organization.

As far as Hack and Petty are concerned, yes, Hack literally doesn't look like he's even close to being NFL ready, but Petty has been decent this preseason and already has some regular season experience under his belt. There is not one logical reason why Petty shouldn't be stating week 1. In a worst case scenario, he's terrible for a few games and then you can bring in McCown to mop up, or even Hack to get a legit look at him in real games. IMO, I think this would be the best approach, and the most acceptable to the very frustrated fan base. And as far as the fan base goes, if you are playing games in empty stadiums, the owners DO take notice, so what the fans think DOES have some impact, especially when $$$ is involved.


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Fans are stupid.  And while we all want a QB, we shouldn't sacrifice the development of 50 players for the sake of one QB who the organization doesn't even believe in.  The fans are going to bail on this season regardless of who's in.  No one is going to sit in the cold to watch Christian Hackenberg complete 48% of his passes and play for the teams 2nd win in December.  The fans will come back when Darnold or similar are on the roster next year.

We can all speculate as to why the practice reps changed, and my theory is that the team was posturing for the eventual McCown start by showing just how incapable Petty/Hack were.

Ultimately, if Petty started, I wouldn't say it was a bad move, but I think everything the team has done with him, including burying him behind Hack (remember, based on reps and playing time, Petty was option 3, not option 2) speaks to the fact that Petty just isn't part of this organization's long term plans.  Petty himself hasn't given me much of a reason to challenge that line of thinking.  So, I'm hoping that McCown can provide some stability and allow Anderson, Hansen, and Stewart to grow.

[section314]

5 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Fans are stupid.  And while we all want a QB, we shouldn't sacrifice the development of 50 players for the sake of one QB who the organization doesn't even believe in.  The fans are going to bail on this season regardless of who's in.  No one is going to sit in the cold to watch Christian Hackenberg complete 48% of his passes and play for the teams 2nd win in December.  The fans will come back when Darnold or similar are on the roster next year.

We can all speculate as to why the practice reps changed, and my theory is that the team was posturing for the eventual McCown start by showing just how incapable Petty/Hack were.

Ultimately, if Petty started, I wouldn't say it was a bad move, but I think everything the team has done with him, including burying him behind Hack (remember, based on reps and playing time, Petty was option 3, not option 2) speaks to the fact that Petty just isn't part of this organization's long term plans.  Petty himself hasn't given me much of a reason to challenge that line of thinking.  So, I'm hoping that McCown can provide some stability and allow Anderson, Hansen, and Stewart to grow.

Great point! Think you are spot on here.

[ChuckkieB]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

Fans are stupid.  And while we all want a QB, we shouldn't sacrifice the development of 50 players for the sake of one QB who the organization doesn't even believe in.  The fans are going to bail on this season regardless of who's in.  No one is going to sit in the cold to watch Christian Hackenberg complete 48% of his passes and play for the teams 2nd win in December.  The fans will come back when Darnold or similar are on the roster next year.

We can all speculate as to why the practice reps changed, and my theory is that the team was posturing for the eventual McCown start by showing just how incapable Petty/Hack were.

Ultimately, if Petty started, I wouldn't say it was a bad move, but I think everything the team has done with him, including burying him behind Hack (remember, based on reps and playing time, Petty was option 3, not option 2) speaks to the fact that Petty just isn't part of this organization's long term plans.  Petty himself hasn't given me much of a reason to challenge that line of thinking.  So, I'm hoping that McCown can provide some stability and allow Anderson, Hansen, and Stewart to grow.

IMO, I actually think the exact opposite was true.  I think the organization wanted to give Hack and Petty as many opportunities as possible to prove themselves in the hopes that one of them would do just enough so they would NOT have to start McCown. 

And this notion that somehow Petty starting would be a hindrance to the development of the WR coprs and the rest of the offense if he started over McCown, the owner of a 2-20 starting record over the last 3 years and title of worst QB in the NFL over that span, is a false narrative.  I'm not buying that.  If Petty isn't a complete disaster, he would contribute to the development of the rest of the young offense just fine. 

[ZachEY]

13 minutes ago, ChuckkieB said:

IMO, I actually think the exact opposite was true.  I think the organization wanted to give Hack and Petty as many opportunities as possible to prove themselves in the hopes that one of them would do just enough so they would NOT have to start McCown. 

And this notion that somehow Petty starting would be a hindrance to the development of the WR coprs and the rest of the offense if he started over McCown, the owner of a 2-20 starting record over the last 3 years and title of worst QB in the NFL over that span, is a false narrative.  I'm not buying that.  If Petty isn't a complete disaster, he would contribute to the development of the rest of the young offense just fine. 

Yes, we both speculate the motives are different.  Which, is kind of my point, our speculations are irrelevant.  The two young players were given a bunch of opportunities, and they failed to impress.  That's what we've seen with our eyes.

The Jets, apparently disagree with you that starting Petty would not be detrimental, because, they are not starting Petty, and he was, again, #3, not #2.  The team has moved on from Petty - the fans have not.  McCown stinks, but he's shown he's capable of competent play.  That positive play has not translated to wins, but we're not talking about wins right now, we're talking about running a functioning offense.  Bryce Petty has not demonstrated that he is capable of doing so, and the team apparently would have rather had Hackenberg, who, again, is exceptionally bad, out there than him.

[jetspenguin]

On 8/29/2017 at 10:40 AM, johnnysd said:

It occurred to me today that I should not be frustrated or angry or upset at the QB situation. It is what it is, and we should know from the start what we are getting.

Just need to accept the truth and move on. Just accept what you have no control over.

And here is the truth:

As long as Bowles is coach, he will ALWAYS play a veteran QB.

This year it is McClown.  Next year it will be McClown or someone else. Barring injury, neither Hackenberg or Petty will ever start here. If McClown completely implodes, we may see some Hack after we are mathematically eliminated, but if he is still coach next year, he;; find another retread QB to "win" the competition and be named starter.

It just is what it is, and wont change until Bowles is gone. Even then, Woody tends to hire pretty much the same coach each time, so even then things won't likely change.

In an actual competition Petty would have won. but he was not even under real consideration.

Just accept it and move on. I have wasted way too much energy on the whole thing.

 

 

gonna have to disagree here.........when we actually have a rookie who can kick a little ass and he STILL picks the grizzled loser vet than this is a valid argument....but since he really hasn't had a rookie that came in and showed he is that guy. Playing T'Clown up front behind this wretched oline is the right thing...even if Petty has a better grasp of the offense it is HIS best interest to get the line settled and the offense to gel even a little bit before putting someone in who so far played well but has been injury prone.

[ChuckkieB]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Yes, we both speculate the motives are different.  Which, is kind of my point, our speculations are irrelevant.  The two young players were given a bunch of opportunities, and they failed to impress.  That's what we've seen with our eyes.

The Jets, apparently disagree with you that starting Petty would not be detrimental, because, they are not starting Petty, and he was, again, #3, not #2.  The team has moved on from Petty - the fans have not.  McCown stinks, but he's shown he's capable of competent play.  That positive play has not translated to wins, but we're not talking about wins right now, we're talking about running a functioning offense.  Bryce Petty has not demonstrated that he is capable of doing so, and the team apparently would have rather had Hackenberg, who, again, is exceptionally bad, out there than him.

This certainly seems to be the case, and I think that this is a reflection of the complete and utter failure of Mac as a GM and Bowlles as a coach.  The team is going down in flames lead by incompetent people.  And so goes the story of the NY Jets...

[EM31]

14 hours ago, nycdan said:

So...depressing thought of the day.

What if we finish with the worst record and draft Darnold.  Sounds great!  Only we still have Bowles as HC.  And he wants to start an old vet and draft more defensive players in rounds 2-5.  Because Darnold just didn't take the job away from the old vet.  Maybe he'll 'waste' a 5th rounder on OL.  Then he'll get up in front of the press and tell them how we'll have an open competition and the best OL will rise to the top.  Darnold will have to come in by week 4 and have a broken wrist by week 6.

Are we really any better off?  

Yeah, I'm all doom and gloom this evening.  Don't mind me.

 

if we spend the #1 on Sam then our entire rest of the draft and some free agency needs to be spent on the offensive line. everything else can wait

[LWC611]

3 hours ago, gEYno said:

This isn't really true.

Year 1, Fitz was slated to be the back-up until Geno got IKO'd.  

Year 2, Fitz was the obvious starter once signed, as he'd just come off a 10-6 season, and so the team wasn't going to go back to Geno, Hack was trash, and Petty hadn't thrown an NFL pass.

Year 3, McCown is signed, and the team has now seen Petty, and for whatever reasons, does not believe he has any shot to start in this league, as evidenced by the practice reps/order and preseason playing time.  Whether we agree with it or not, it seems clear the team sees no future in Petty.  Hack was given every opportunity to win the job, but he sucks at football, so McCown gets the nod.

The only problem in all of this from Bowles perspective is why Petty has been dismissed entirely, and considering Bowles has an Offensive Coordinator, a QB coach, and a full staff watching game film and practices, while we have 6 games (which weren't particularly good) and Connor Hughes tweets, I'm going to trust that the staff knows something that we don't regarding his potential in the league.

So, ultimately, in the one year where Bowles had a real choice, his choices were all bad, and he probably made the right one.  As I've said before, it's not just about winning games.  In all likelihood, McCown gives all the Jets WRs and really most of the Jets offense the best chance to develop and succeed.  You want to blame someone for this, how about the guy who, going into his 3rd season of leadership, gives the HC the choice of Josh McCown, Christian Hackenberg, and Bryce Petty?

This^^^^

[NYs Stepchild]

22 hours ago, johnnysd said:

It occurred to me today that I should not be frustrated or angry or upset at the QB situation. It is what it is, and we should know from the start what we are getting.

Just need to accept the truth and move on. Just accept what you have no control over.

And here is the truth:

As long as Bowles is coach, he will ALWAYS play a veteran QB.

This year it is McClown.  Next year it will be McClown or someone else. Barring injury, neither Hackenberg or Petty will ever start here. If McClown completely implodes, we may see some Hack after we are mathematically eliminated, but if he is still coach next year, he;; find another retread QB to "win" the competition and be named starter.

It just is what it is, and wont change until Bowles is gone. Even then, Woody tends to hire pretty much the same coach each time, so even then things won't likely change.

In an actual competition Petty would have won. but he was not even under real consideration.

Just accept it and move on. I have wasted way too much energy on the whole thing.

 

 

If only we could find a team that would give us a 4th round pick for Bowles. The Chiefs maybe for a 5th and Holmgren. 

[JohnnyLV]

4 hours ago, MaxAF said:

No HC, GM or franchise throws in the towel before the season starts to draft an unknown potential DP. Some people on JN just don't get that. Winning is all that matters. This is a rebuild but the players and staff will do everything possible to win. Millions of $$$ are spent on players and coaches to win. That's the goal, that's the game. So the Jets may go 2-14 or 6-10 or whatever but they will "play to win the game". If you ever played competitive sports you don't play to lose. You hate losing. I hate losing. Losing is well....for losers. Darnold may not even enter the draft next year and personally I don't give a rat's ass if he does or doesn't. Don't care if the Jets get him or don't. Can't give up on a QB by seeing him play 2 preseason games with a sh*tty O- line. Not every QB develops at the same time. He's a project. He will probably suck the first year or 2. Maybe he'll suk forever. It's still an unknown. Petty may develop to be a very good QB. Too many short sighted " QB experts" on JN lately. Let the rebuild play itself out. The Jets may actually be a contender in a couple years. Patience Jet brothers. 

Exactly. Petty and Hack are unknowns. You do not play them to tank, you play them to DEVELOP them. It is the critical element for this year because you never know what will happen in the draft. Play McClown to just eke out another win or two is sabotaging the Jets future. Play to win, but with Hack or Petty NOT a 38 year old retread. (who also sucks by the way)

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, ChuckkieB said:

This certainly seems to be the case, and I think that this is a reflection of the complete and utter failure of Mac as a GM and Bowlles as a coach.  The team is going down in flames lead by incompetent people.  And so goes the story of the NY Jets...

Agreed on Macc, less on Bowles, at least in this regard.  I've found myself defending Bowles a lot lately, and I don't even love him at this point.  I think he's too conservative and I think his clock management is worse than a 14-year-old with Madden.  But, I also think he takes a ton of heat for things that are out of his control, like who the QBs are.  All 3 options this season were bad.  I don't know what he can do with that.

[afjetsfan]

On 8/29/2017 at 1:40 PM, johnnysd said:

It occurred to me today that I should not be frustrated or angry or upset at the QB situation. It is what it is, and we should know from the start what we are getting.

Just need to accept the truth and move on. Just accept what you have no control over.

And here is the truth:

As long as Bowles is coach, he will ALWAYS play a veteran QB.

This year it is McClown.  Next year it will be McClown or someone else. Barring injury, neither Hackenberg or Petty will ever start here. If McClown completely implodes, we may see some Hack after we are mathematically eliminated, but if he is still coach next year, he;; find another retread QB to "win" the competition and be named starter.

It just is what it is, and wont change until Bowles is gone. Even then, Woody tends to hire pretty much the same coach each time, so even then things won't likely change.

In an actual competition Petty would have won. but he was not even under real consideration.

Just accept it and move on. I have wasted way too much energy on the whole thing.

 

 

I don't think playing a veteran QB is a bad idea given the other choices.  If we had an elite team around McCown, I think we could do pretty well.  The problem is, our supporting cast for McCown is the worst in the league, so no matter who we put behind center (Brady included) they are going to look bad.

If I was coaching for my job, which Bowles most certainly is, I would play McCown.  Simple.  He is the only QB on our team that even resembles a starting QB.  My guess is we go 3-13 or something, fire bowles, draft a top QB prospect and dump both Petty and Hack and get another veteran QB backup.

[Bleedin Green]

5 hours ago, gEYno said:

This isn't really true.

Year 1, Fitz was slated to be the back-up until Geno got IKO'd.  

Year 2, Fitz was the obvious starter once signed, as he'd just come off a 10-6 season, and so the team wasn't going to go back to Geno, Hack was trash, and Petty hadn't thrown an NFL pass.

Year 3, McCown is signed, and the team has now seen Petty, and for whatever reasons, does not believe he has any shot to start in this league, as evidenced by the practice reps/order and preseason playing time.  Whether we agree with it or not, it seems clear the team sees no future in Petty.  Hack was given every opportunity to win the job, but he sucks at football, so McCown gets the nod.

The only problem in all of this from Bowles perspective is why Petty has been dismissed entirely, and considering Bowles has an Offensive Coordinator, a QB coach, and a full staff watching game film and practices, while we have 6 games (which weren't particularly good) and Connor Hughes tweets, I'm going to trust that the staff knows something that we don't regarding his potential in the league.

So, ultimately, in the one year where Bowles had a real choice, his choices were all bad, and he probably made the right one.  As I've said before, it's not just about winning games.  In all likelihood, McCown gives all the Jets WRs and really most of the Jets offense the best chance to develop and succeed.  You want to blame someone for this, how about the guy who, going into his 3rd season of leadership, gives the HC the choice of Josh McCown, Christian Hackenberg, and Bryce Petty?

All true, but the bold is what it really comes down to.  Despite many Jets fans caring about nothing but QBs (for fair enough reasons),  the team has a lot of other players and positions they have to worry about, and if they're already convinced Hack and Petty aren't good enough, they're not going to sacrifice the season's of their other positions for the sake of (from their perspective) proving the QBs suck.

That opinion is actually one likely to be shared by both coach and GM.  Granted, Macc would love nothing more than for one of his drafted QBs to step it up and make him look like a genius, but if he also believes they're going to stink it up this year, it's in his own interest to have McCown helping the way the WRs, TEs, and even OL look.

[Bleedin Green]

After continuing to go through this, I realize Petty has officially turned into our present day Brett Ratliff / Matt Simms.  The only real difference is that the Jets actually spent a pick on Petty, but everything else lines up.  In this case, we have seen more regular season play out of him than those two combined... and it was not good.  Keep in mind, I say this while being very much in the position that I would have been happy to have seen Petty announced as the starter, but the reality is the only reason for any degree of positivity about him is solely based on third-string preseason performances.

[Pac]

Still can't believe that Macc didn't grab one of the dozens of franchise QB's that were available the last couple offseasons.

He could have had Brock for christs sakes!