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Philc1

How can anyone still defend Macagnan?

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1 hour ago, jetrider said:

His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. That was before the players were handed over to Bowles of course.

 

 

Superb?  According to who?  These "experts" are wrong 50% of the time at least.  These were the same people telling us Cam Robinson wasn't even worthy of a first round pick and would have to play Guard in the NFL.  Cam is now killing it as Jacksonville's starting Left Tackle blocking JJ Watt and opening up canyons for Leonard Fournette.

1 hour ago, jetrider said:

 

Q: Do you think Macc drafted safeties because he wanted them or because Bowles wanted them?

 

 

The Adams, Maye and Lee picks have Todd Bowles written all over them just like the Coples and Richardson picks had Rex written all over them.  But Mac has the final say and has to own it.

1 hour ago, jetrider said:

Woody should let Macc pick a new HC first.

 

No, that would be a terrible mistake on Woody's part.  Mac is the biggest problem with this franchise even bigger than Bowles who also needs to be fired.

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On 9/10/2017 at 4:17 PM, Joe W. Namath said:

Mac is the worst gm in football.  That is not debateable.

How about whoever the Colts GM is?  They've got the franchise QB in place and they can't put anything around the guy.

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2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

How about whoever the Colts GM is?  They've got the franchise QB in place and they can't put anything around the guy.

If Macagnan is #1 sh_ttiest GM the Colts GM is 1(a)

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37 minutes ago, gEYno said:

So, your take is that Mac picked a bunch of superstars that Bowles ruined?  Hilarious

That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January.

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8 hours ago, Philc1 said:

That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January.

It's amazing - I've said it numerous times here.  I don't even hold that high an opinion of Bowles myself, it's just that the majority of the arguments against him are so aggressively stupid, it's hard not to defend him.

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11 hours ago, Philc1 said:

That's what the media and Jets spin story is going to be when Bowles is the scapegoat in January.

Fat boy Francesa did just that yesterday.

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3 hours ago, gEYno said:

It's amazing - I've said it numerous times here.  I don't even hold that high an opinion of Bowles myself, it's just that the majority of the arguments against him are so aggressively stupid, it's hard not to defend him.

The fact that Jet fans can actually splinter into pro-McCag vs pro-Bowles factions may be the most pathetic part of all.

How can anyone be pro either one versus the other when they're both horrific at their job descriptions?

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29 minutes ago, glenn31 said:

The fact that Jet fans can actually splinter into pro-McCag vs pro-Bowles factions may be the most pathetic part of all.

How can anyone be pro either one versus the other when they're both horrific at their job descriptions?

It's as though some find it incomprehensible to suggest that both of these two are just awful.

 

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13 hours ago, gEYno said:

So, your take is that Mac picked a bunch of superstars that Bowles ruined?  Hilarious

Where did I say that?

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5 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's as though some find it incomprehensible to suggest that both of these two are just awful.

 

i think you can split them.  look at jeremy kerley.  he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds.  i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense.  i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses.  i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure.  i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played.

increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly.  

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19 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

i think you can split them.  look at jeremy kerley.  he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds.  i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense.  i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses.  i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure.  i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played.

increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly.  

We better let him hire his own coach, just to be safe

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9 minutes ago, Pointdexter said:

If it's half as good as that 2nd round steal at QB that he outsmarted the rest of the league on, we're all in for a real treat.

you know what, if petty turns out to be decent, and hack sucks, that's a pretty good tradeoff, if you can hit on 50% of the qbs you get after round 1.  of course that would mean petty has to play ok, but he's got a chance.  it would actually be way more encouraging if petty pans out, than hack, b/c you'd have a 4th rounder from an air raid offense who was somehow groomed amid the coaching dysfunction to become productive.  i really would like to see him play the phins week 3.

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On September 11, 2017 at 7:38 AM, dbatesman said:

It was Idzik's fault that the team was bad when he was here, because he was bad. Its not Maccc's fault the team is bad, because Maccc is good. Try to keep up

Tightwad Idzik was a banker who had no interest in working with an HC that wanted to win now and spend money. 

Woody changed all that with Macc and Bowles. It's a new unified collaborative effort. The GM listens to and serves the HC. There's a big diff.

For someone who spends his life on a Jets forum you should really try to keep up.

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51 minutes ago, jetrider said:

Where did I say that?

 

19 hours ago, jetrider said:

His drafts were superb according to experts and analysts. That was before the players were handed over to Bowles of course.

Right here?

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Why is that I have to either be defending him across the board, or agreeing that he's the worst in the league?

Why can't I just think he's been a meh GM? 

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1 hour ago, Augustiniak said:

i think you can split them.  look at jeremy kerley.  he's underused on the jets, goes to another bad team with no qb and sets career highs in targets/receptions/tds.  i think there are a good number of players the jets draft who would look better on other teams, on both offense and defense.  i think stewart/hanson would do fine in competent offenses.  i think mcguire would get playing time over forte on other teams whose coaches would value performance over tenure.  i also think petty could look halfway decent on the jets, and they would have had a legit shot of beating the bills if he played.

increasingly, i find it more and more difficult to evaluate some of mccags draft picks b/c they are either not used or used incorrectly.  

There are alot of moving parts here:

  • In judging Macc, many of us strongly suspect Woody's involvement-signing Revis and Fitz2, holding out for too much in trading Mo and SR, pushing to be competitive when they should been rebuilding (item 3, see below).
  • In judging Bowles, you have to take into account the rebuild/purge taking place now and the decisions to let Decker and Harris go (compounded by QE injury).
  • In judging Macc, given that he is equal to Bowles, you need to take into account players that he picked for Bowles at Bowles behest who are not working out-Lee is definitely one of these.  You also need to take into account ability of Bowles and his staff to develop and deploy those players.
  • In judging Bowles, you need to take into account players that Macc gave him that are not good.  Of the three year draft list, I think we can point to a few of those.
  • Macc traded alot of picks away to be competitive (see item 3 above).  That has not helped the shape of the roster.

There is clear evidence that both of them underachieved on their own.  There is also strong suspicion that each of them with respect to each other, and other forces, contributed to their underachievement.  I think there is evidence that each of them would have done better in their promoted role in a different place.

The Jets are not the Chiefs who run the same system.  The Chiefs are owned and run by Clark Hunt, who grew up with football, like the Rooneys and Maras.  Woody is just clueless, but he is also too clueless to realize that he is clueless.

The system the Jets are employing is not working.  Something needs to change.  My guess is that there are things going on behind the scenes, and that these guys must be smarter than we think they are.  I definitely think there is a bias to playing players for whom money has been spent, regardless of ability.  For example, both last year and this year, someone has been saying, "play Forte."  It would also appear that the defensive coaches are stuck in a system.

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28 minutes ago, jetrider said:

So you made it all up. Thought so.

So you didn't say that Bowles screwed up Mac's great drafts/talent. Ok...

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1 hour ago, gEYno said:

So you didn't say that Bowles screwed up Mac's great drafts/talent. Ok...

I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching.

I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands.

And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles. Okay ... he ruins them.

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1 hour ago, jetrider said:

Tightwad Idzik was a banker who had no interest in working with an HC that wanted to win now and spend money. 

Woody changed all that with Macc and Bowles. It's a new unified collaborative effort. The GM listens to and serves the HC. There's a big diff.

For someone who spends his life on a Jets forum you should really try to keep up.

RIP dbatesman, hoist by his own petard

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4 minutes ago, jetrider said:

I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching.

I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands.

And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles.

Got it.  So, your argument hinges on the difference between "superb" and "superstar."

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1 minute ago, gEYno said:

Got it.  So, your argument hinges on the difference between "superb" and "superstar."

A superb draft implies superstar talent? It's you that's off the rails here

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1 minute ago, jetrider said:

A superb draft implies superstar talent? It's you that's off the rails here

Probably right, jetrider.  You sir, have a superb understanding of what's going on.

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19 minutes ago, gEYno said:

Probably right, jetrider.  You sir, have a superb understanding of what's going on.

Thank you. That means I'm a superstar.

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1 hour ago, jetrider said:

I didn't call them "superstars", your original accusation. I did say it would take "superstars" to conceal crappy coaching.

I also said Macc's drafts received high grades. However, we don't know their true potential once put in Bowles' hands.

And I did and still say they don't have a good chance under Bowles. Okay ... he ruins them.

Well Belichick's drafts - including some doozies - would routinely receive initial high grades. I remember for example '06 in particular, in what was billed as this super-deep draft at the time. Round after round, the endless knob-slobbering over every move he'd made and every terrible pick he selected. In the end, he drafted 10 players and the best of the bunch - by far - was the one that was then thought of as his biggest reach, and only somewhat acceptable because Belichick was the one making it: his 4th round kicker. 

Point being, had those same players gone to Bowles & co. it's a safe guess that your blame for their failure would surely fall on these substandard coaches not putting them in positions to succeed. It's entirely possible these players - no matter how good they may have looked in college, no matter how much you liked the picks at the time - just might not be very good, or any good.

Coaching is hardly meaningless, but most truly good prospects - e.g. a sure thing like Leo - aren't going to totally suck even despite bad coaching, so long as they stay healthy. Or is your suggestion that UDFA Robbie Anderson received superior coaching and was uniquely given a better chance to succeed, as a rookie under Bowles, than all the rest of the young WRs Maccagnan drafted or brought in? He didn't ruin Anderson; he didn't ruin Enunwa; he didn't ruin Winters; he hasn't seemed to ruin forum-favorites like Shell and Burris; it's doubtful he'll ruin Adams.

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