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CanadaSteve

History Repeating Itself?

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Macc is fine.  The so called terrible drafts are a grotesque exaggeration and he's doing this year what he needs to do to set us up going forward.  Woody all but admitted he's taking Maccs advice doing this the right way.

I'm fine with Macc getting an extension and picking a coach with some gravitas.

The only exception would be if a TOP HC comes free and will only sign if he brings in a GM. 

Idzik and Fitzpatrick have been the 2 biggest failures of this organization the last decade.

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37 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

The vast majority of a fan base hating on a HC who can't win with what that same fan base considers the "Worst Roster in the league"  . The vast majority of this same fan base willing to give the GM of the worst roster in the league the benefit of the doubt over the hated HC if one of the 2 men are to be sacrificed  in a down year .

What this fan base fails to realize is that both men proved they can work together and win when they assembled a veteran team that won 10 games in their maiden season . That needed to be done to rove to the ownership that it could be done . Now, it's time to tear down the old, and build a new house . I wonder what Cowboys stadium looked like the 1st few months into construction . I wonder if it resembled anything like what the current stadium looks like today. 

For that matter, does anyone remember the team Jason Garrett inherited or who it was that was assembling that team .  How does that team compare to the team Garrett is coaching today ? I wonder if the GM and the HC fans were calling terrible and other adjectives is still running that team .

 

Despite a Jets 2016 offense that was almost as terrible as the 2017 version, Bowles was grinning ear to ear on draft day about 2 safeties. And why not; he ahs never given 2 sheets about the offense. He's been allowed by the owner to pretend to be a HC, but he's a glorified DC who has farmed out the offense each season. 

They won 10 games in 2015 because of a weak schedule and Fitz having a career year. 

The HC and the GM in the Jets' structure (and that's really bending a definition) report separately to the owner. They were hired separately. So they by design do not work together,as happens with every other NFL team. 

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40 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

The vast majority of a fan base hating on a HC who can't win with what that same fan base considers the "Worst Roster in the league"  . The vast majority of this same fan base willing to give the GM of the worst roster in the league the benefit of the doubt over the hated HC if one of the 2 men are to be sacrificed  in a down year .

What this fan base fails to realize is that both men proved they can work together and win when they assembled a veteran team that won 10 games in their maiden season . That needed to be done to rove to the ownership that it could be done . Now, it's time to tear down the old, and build a new house . I wonder what Cowboys stadium looked like the 1st few months into construction . I wonder if it resembled anything like what the current stadium looks like today. 

For that matter, does anyone remember the team Jason Garrett inherited or who it was that was assembling that team .  How does that team compare to the team Garrett is coaching today ? I wonder if the GM and the HC fans were calling terrible and other adjectives is still running that team .

 

One of the biggest parts of being a Head Coach is making in-game decisions such as: Clock Management, punting vs. going for 4th Down; when to go for two points, etc.. These are situational choices with clear right and wrong decisions. A good HC will make the right decision more often than not. That has nothing to do with whether it actually succeeds or not on the field. Bowles has shown he consistently makes the wrong choice because he has no awareness of risk vs reward, foresight into how the decision will affect the latter stage of the game, and sometimes because he forgets how many points his own team is down. 

All of this has nothing to do with wins or losses or the talent level of the players on the team. 

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1 minute ago, JetFreak89 said:

One of the biggest parts of being a Head Coach is making in-game decisions such as: Clock Management, punting vs. going for 4th Down; when to go for two points, etc.. These are situational choices with clear right and wrong decisions. A good HC will make the right decision more often than not. That has nothing to do with whether it actually succeeds or not on the field. Bowles has shown he consistently makes the wrong choice because he has no awareness of risk vs reward, foresight into how the decision will affect the latter stage of the game, and sometimes because he forgets how many points his own team is down. 

All of this has nothing to do with wins or losses or the talent level of the players on the team. 

And who or what determines when a decision is right or wrong ?  A QB throws into double coverage and the result is a TD. Did he make the right decision ?  Going for 2 is a subjective decision . There's no etched in stone correct way, just coach's choice . Seriously, do you think a coach forgets how many points his team is behind . Do you know why accidents happen on roadways  ? 

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28 minutes ago, Pac said:

Macc is fine.  The so called terrible drafts are a grotesque exaggeration and he's doing this year what he needs to do to set us up going forward.  Woody all but admitted he's taking Maccs advice doing this the right way.

I'm fine with Macc getting an extension and picking a coach with some gravitas.

The only exception would be if a TOP HC comes free and will only sign if he brings in a GM. 

Idzik and Fitzpatrick have been the 2 biggest failures of this organization the last decade.

It is clear that Macc has been outperformed by his peers in at least the last 2 drafts.

His philosophy in selecting players also seems to be stuck from his prior job as a Scout.

A Scout grades players in terms of their likelihood of NFL success.  Macc apparently drafts in a vacuum, trying to go off of grades without weighing relative positional value.

In a league where teams have built from the inside out, Macc seems to think he can build from the outside in.

His Hack pick in particular is at best a gross overdraft, and at worst is dereliction.

My guess is that he is a good scout, just like Idzik is a good contract executive.  Maybe he learns from this and develops into a capable GM.  But at the moment, with 100mm to spend and top draft picks to make, he needs at best a boss, and at worst replacement.

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2 hours ago, DMan77 said:

Macc has another year, at least. He's not getting fired. I know people think he's the devil incarnate, but he's not getting the boot. 

What exactly does that look like?  Bowles get fired.  Mac hires new coach.  Team stinks again.  Do you fire Mac then?  If so, do you fire the new HC after one year?  Or, do you force the new GM to keep the new coach, ala Idzik/Rex?  Or, after generally doing a poor job in 3 drafts, do you give Mac 2-3 more, so that you don't have to encounter the aforementioned situations?

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38 minutes ago, Pac said:

Macc is fine.  The so called terrible drafts are a grotesque exaggeration and he's doing this year what he needs to do to set us up going forward.  Woody all but admitted he's taking Maccs advice doing this the right way.

I'm fine with Macc getting an extension and picking a coach with some gravitas.

The only exception would be if a TOP HC comes free and will only sign if he brings in a GM. 

Idzik and Fitzpatrick have been the 2 biggest failures of this organization the last decade.

lolpac

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2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What exactly does that look like?  Bowles get fired.  Mac hires new coach.  Team stinks again.  Do you fire Mac then?  If so, do you fire the new HC after one year?  Or, do you force the new GM to keep the new coach, ala Idzik/Rex?

I think Woody told Macc not to sign FAs and to work on rebuilding, and if he did so his job would be safe.

But he also said he was judging on player development.

We don't know what went on behind the scenes, but Lee and Hack are not looking like good picks.  I don't know how you let that person pick at the top of seven rounds.

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Macc is not on thin ice--you can tell just by his actions. A GM on thin ice spends to the hilt to build a team that produces a good record to gain success or at least buy time to skate along in the job. You definitely draft the best playmaker you can in the first round so you have something to point to as your draft acumen. A GM on thin ice doesn't let loose the 1 and 2 WRs and bring in McCown. 

Macc must know he has room to fail this year and then build a team for a couple more years. 

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1 minute ago, varjet said:

I think Woody told Macc not to sign FAs and to work on rebuilding, and if he did so his job would be safe.

But he also said he was judging on player development.

We don't know what went on behind the scenes, but Lee and Hack are not looking like good picks.  I don't know how you let that person pick at the top of seven rounds.

I wish the problem was just Lee and Hackenberg.

In his first two drafts, he's added one good player.  That only happened when the consensus best player in the draft fell to him.  And yet, it was still the wrong pick.  Then, his next best pick may be a punter.

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11 minutes ago, gEYno said:

What exactly does that look like?  Bowles get fired.  Mac hires new coach.  Team stinks again.  Do you fire Mac then?  If so, do you fire the new HC after one year?  Or, do you force the new GM to keep the new coach, ala Idzik/Rex?  Or, after generally doing a poor job in 3 drafts, do you give Mac 2-3 more, so that you don't have to encounter the aforementioned situations?

He gets one more draft. If the team jumps up 5/6/7 wins, he stays around. If not, he gets the boot... Don't know about the coach merry-go-round. 

Of course it's just a guess. I have no idea. I just think his body of work is still incomplete until next year.

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Just now, DMan77 said:

He gets one more draft. If the team jumps up 5/6/7 wins, he stays around. If not, he gets the boot... Don't know about the coach merry-go-round. 

Of course it's just a guess. I have no idea. I just think his body of work is still incomplete until next year.

But, you can't just ignore the coaching merry-go-round.  If you want to put Mac on the one year leash, then you have to do it with Bowles.  Otherwise, just get rid of them both this year, because you can't avoid the issue of what to do with the coach.

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if this team plays like crap all season, not in most of the games and players he drafted, brought in and resigned show little or no improvement he needs to go.  cant blame it all on coaching, though of course they are at fault too and should all be gone, why trust him to pick the next QB and spend money on FA's?

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2 minutes ago, gEYno said:

But, you can't just ignore the coaching merry-go-round.  If you want to put Mac on the one year leash, then you have to do it with Bowles.  Otherwise, just get rid of them both this year, because you can't avoid the issue of what to do with the coach.

I'm not sure... I think Bowles can screw up and get in more hot water than Mac. I think he'd be on the hot seat while Mac gets a pass... Again I'm not saying that's right or wrong... I have no idea. I just know what I feel, and that's that the Bowles can do more right now during the season to increase his chances of getting fired than Mac can.

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21 minutes ago, varjet said:

It is clear that Macc has been outperformed by his peers in at least the last 2 drafts.

His philosophy in selecting players also seems to be stuck from his prior job as a Scout.

A Scout grades players in terms of their likelihood of NFL success.  Macc apparently drafts in a vacuum, trying to go off of grades without weighing relative positional value.

In a league where teams have built from the inside out, Macc seems to think he can build from the outside in.

His Hack pick in particular is at best a gross overdraft, and at worst is dereliction.

My guess is that he is a good scout, just like Idzik is a good contract executive.  Maybe he learns from this and develops into a capable GM.  But at the moment, with 100mm to spend and top draft picks to make, he needs at best a boss, and at worst replacement.

If I'm bored later I'll look at the last 2 AFCE drafts and see how much he's been "outperformed".  My guess is not much if at all.

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18 minutes ago, gEYno said:

lolpac

You're working overtime on Macc Mania..  do you Dbuttman and Tomshame get on skype and work out your talking points?

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18 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

I'm not sure... I think Bowles can screw up and get in more hot water than Mac. I think he'd be on the hot seat while Mac gets a pass... Again I'm not saying that's right or wrong... I have no idea. I just know what I feel, and that's that the Bowles can do more right now during the season to increase his chances of getting fired than Mac can.

That's not the point though.  The point is, you encounter a huge issue if you fire Bowles and not Macc.  You have to be willing to give Mac 3 more years, fire him and a new coach after one (maybe 2), or force new GM to keep new coach.  On a message board, you can ignore those realities... the Jets cannot.

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32 minutes ago, Pac said:

If I'm bored later I'll look at the last 2 AFCE drafts and see how much he's been "outperformed".  My guess is not much if at all.

Do it.  I don't think you'll find that your guess is particularly valid.  Miami added a 1,000 RB (Ajayi) and a WR (Parker) that has actually stepped up, plus the LT (Tunsil) we supposedly wanted since 2015.  I guess if you say "last 2" you want to skip 2015?  They added a starting DT (Phillips) and CB (Howard) too. 

The Pats added starting interior linemen (Thuney, Jackson, Mason) and DT (Brown), plus a rookie LB (Wise) that got a sack and a DE (Flowers) that had 2 opening night.   Malcolm Mitchell is no big deal, but he did a sh*t load more to be proud of than Charone Peake.  They also got Dorsett for Brisset, and their 1st and 3rd for Cooks.  The 2nd for Kony Ealy + a 3rd doesn't look so great right now, but they won the super bowl the past two years, so they get some slack. The Jets grabbed Kony Ealy and Swagger Dee, so it is kind of hard to fault those decisions.

I guess the Bills may have done worse, but they did gut their front office, so there is that. 

The Jets added an excellent 3-4 DE, a mediocre OLB and a punter.  They did add a couple of safeties this year. I hope nobody points to Shell as a 10 year starter until he goes more than 1/4 season without a ton of RB/TE chipping to keep the QB clean.  Burris, Peake, and Deon Simon have not reached any level where they can be described as anything more than complete unknowns and usually quite less. 

 

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31 minutes ago, Pac said:

You're working overtime on Macc Mania..  do you Dbuttman and Tomshame get on skype and work out your talking points?

Nope, we just understand what's happening on the television when we watch the games.

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56 minutes ago, Tinstar said:

And who or what determines when a decision is right or wrong ?  A QB throws into double coverage and the result is a TD. Did he make the right decision ?  Going for 2 is a subjective decision . There's no etched in stone correct way, just coach's choice . Seriously, do you think a coach forgets how many points his team is behind . Do you know why accidents happen on roadways  ? 

Logic dictates whether a decision is right or wrong. Where a QB throws the ball is irrelevant, you are still talking about players performance.

For instance, it sure seems that Bowles has taken the offseason to learn when to punt the ball, check out this article. Replace Pittsburgh with Buffalo and you can write the same article for this past week. http://nypost.com/2016/10/09/todd-bowles-biggest-screwup-yet-reveals-jets-damning-problem/

I seriously do think a coach forgets how many points his team is behind when that exact coach didn't understand how many points ahead his team was last year and almost ended up losing the game because of it. Keep in mind, he defended this decision in the postgame presser. http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/09/jets_todd_bowles_says_he_screwed_up_by_not_attempt.html   Going for 2 in this case is not a subjective opinion, it is knowing how scoring works in the NFL and having foresight. 

Bottom line is Bowles, like Rex, is simply not smart enough to play the chess match that head coaches need to in order to put their teams in the best situation to win. That is why when they defend their decisions, they rely on "gut" and "instincts". 

We made fun of Herm for handing over clock management responsibilities to Dick Curl at the time but at least he could admit he had an issue and take steps to improve on them. What has Bowles done in the last 2 years to suggest he is doing the same? 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Do it.  I don't think you'll find that your guess is particularly valid.  Miami added a 1,000 RB (Ajayi) and a WR (Parker) that has actually stepped up, plus the LT (Tunsil) we supposedly wanted since 2015.  I guess if you say "last 2" you want to skip 2015?  They added a starting DT (Phillips) and CB (Howard) too. 

The Pats added starting interior linemen (Thuney, Jackson, Mason) and DT (Brown), plus a rookie LB (Wise) that got a sack and a DE (Flowers) that had 2 opening night.   Malcolm Mitchell is no big deal, but he did a sh*t load more to be proud of than Charone Peake.  They also got Dorsett for Brisset, and their 1st and 3rd for Cooks.  The 2nd for Kony Ealy + a 3rd doesn't look so great right now, but they won the super bowl the past two years, so they get some slack. The Jets grabbed Kony Ealy and Swagger Dee, so it is kind of hard to fault those decisions.

I guess the Bills may have done worse, but they did gut their front office, so there is that. 

The Jets added an excellent 3-4 DE, a mediocre OLB and a punter.  They did add a couple of safeties this year. I hope nobody points to Shell as a 10 year starter until he goes more than 1/4 season without a ton of RB/TE chipping to keep the QB clean.  Burris, Peake, and Deon Simon have not reached any level where they can be described as anything more than complete unknowns and usually quite less. 

 

Miami's drafts sound good but it's still early..  if only we could get our hands on a guy to run the show like the one they have.... what's his name again?

 

 tannenbaum GIF

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2 hours ago, gEYno said:

I wish the problem was just Lee and Hackenberg.

In his first two drafts, he's added one good player.  That only happened when the consensus best player in the draft fell to him.  And yet, it was still the wrong pick.  Then, his next best pick may be a punter.

Macc added some good players.  His first draft was a complete mess.  His credit for Leo was countered by other miscues.  Smith was not just injury prone-he was a hard NFL projection, and there were better picks there.  Mauldin?  Eli Harold was the pick there.  Petty was a lower than 4th round pick based on recent picks.  Jarvis Harrison?  Peake?  Simon was a good value pick.

My biggest issue is with the Lee and Hack picks.  Looking at that draft there were better players at both of those spots.  Jordan Jenkins and Shell were good picks.  

The 2017 draft looks ok but is completely confused on position value.

2 hours ago, Pac said:

If I'm bored later I'll look at the last 2 AFCE drafts and see how much he's been "outperformed".  My guess is not much if at all.

I was not talking about the ACFE.   We can go through the last 3 drafts, pick-by-pick, and show the Jets outpicked by teams picking within 5 picks of where the Jets picked (or should have picked if they had not traded down).

The Hack pick was a big risk.  At this point we would be able to say it was smart or stupid-for a second round pick, that get paid decently and are only under contract for 4 years, was a dumb pick.  It was dumb on the order of do you let him do it again dumb.  Hack could still turn out ok, but a second round pick should be at least a back up now (yes, he is, but he is really not).

Lee was obviously pushed by Bowles, but I would think it was Macc's job to evaluate him.  He looks unsuited to the role he is supposed to play.

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6 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

After the two years of John Idzik's tenure, h cleared out a LOT of cap space, but as we all know, drafted poorly.

Whether you agree or not, Mike Maccagnan is on thin ice.  He too this year cleared a LOT of cap space and jettisoned many veteran contracts.

Will history repeat itself?  Another GM coming in who will get a clean slate?  If the cap goes up even slightly to $170 million next year, the Jets will have roughly $60+ million as of now, with another $20 million in contracts that can be cut.  That, along with what is likely a top 3 pick in all the rounds, you have to wonder: IF Woody wants to clean slate (again), would $60-80 million dollars in cap space at top picks in each round of the draft be enough to persuade a solid veteran GM to move to the Big Apple?

 

As long as lucky sperm club Woody owns this team, the simple answer to your question is.......No 

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4 hours ago, Pac said:

Macc is fine.  The so called terrible drafts are a grotesque exaggeration and he's doing this year what he needs to do to set us up going forward.  Woody all but admitted he's taking Maccs advice doing this the right way.

I'm fine with Macc getting an extension and picking a coach with some gravitas.

The only exception would be if a TOP HC comes free and will only sign if he brings in a GM. 

Idzik and Sanchez have been the 2 biggest failures of this organization the last decade.

Fixed.

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When I opened this thread I was sure we talking about the the current  Jets and the Kotite era Jets

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3 hours ago, JetFreak89 said:

Logic dictates whether a decision is right or wrong. Where a QB throws the ball is irrelevant, you are still talking about players performance.

For instance, it sure seems that Bowles has taken the offseason to learn when to punt the ball, check out this article. Replace Pittsburgh with Buffalo and you can write the same article for this past week. http://nypost.com/2016/10/09/todd-bowles-biggest-screwup-yet-reveals-jets-damning-problem/

I seriously do think a coach forgets how many points his team is behind when that exact coach didn't understand how many points ahead his team was last year and almost ended up losing the game because of it. Keep in mind, he defended this decision in the postgame presser. http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2016/09/jets_todd_bowles_says_he_screwed_up_by_not_attempt.html   Going for 2 in this case is not a subjective opinion, it is knowing how scoring works in the NFL and having foresight. 

Bottom line is Bowles, like Rex, is simply not smart enough to play the chess match that head coaches need to in order to put their teams in the best situation to win. That is why when they defend their decisions, they rely on "gut" and "instincts". 

We made fun of Herm for handing over clock management responsibilities to Dick Curl at the time but at least he could admit he had an issue and take steps to improve on them. What has Bowles done in the last 2 years to suggest he is doing the same? 

 

 

You are in a shopping mall parking lot and you look across the street in another parking lot and you notice 2 people having a conversation . From where you stand, without hearing their conversation, can you tell which 1 is the genius and which is not ?

I say all that to say this . One of us is dense, and since I don't really know you, I'm going to assume it's me and quit proving it .

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6 hours ago, Bugg said:

Despite a Jets 2016 offense that was almost as terrible as the 2017 version, Bowles was grinning ear to ear on draft day about 2 safeties. And why not; he ahs never given 2 sheets about the offense. He's been allowed by the owner to pretend to be a HC, but he's a glorified DC who has farmed out the offense each season. 

They won 10 games in 2015 because of a weak schedule and Fitz having a career year. 

The HC and the GM in the Jets' structure (and that's really bending a definition) report separately to the owner. They were hired separately. So they by design do not work together,as happens with every other NFL team. 

They certainly don't on player personnel decisions, but Bowles seems to have a lot of power on draft choices

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