Jet Coaches and their QB's

[CanadaSteve]

Someone made a great point in another thread that it does not matter who they bring in to coach this team because we keep failing to provide them with the obvious: A QB that can play.  So I thought, let's take a look at our coaching history, and see who was saddled with whom. I skipped over the Joe Namath era and a few years after, and started with Walt Michaels, only because that is the first Jet coach that I TRULY remember as a kid, and I skipped over one year wonders Pete Carroll and Al Groh:

Walt Michaels (1977 - 1982): Matt Domres (2 games) Richard Todd (16) Matt Robinson (13) Richard Todd (56)

Results: 2 playoff appearances, including 1 AFC Championship

Joe Walton (1983 - 1989): Kyle Mackey (1), Tony Eason (2), David Norrie (2), Richard Todd (16), Pat Ryan (19),  Ken O'Brien (71)

Results: 2 Wild card appearances

Bruce Coslet (1990 - 1993): Browning Nagle (13), Boomer Esiason (16), Ken O'Brien (35)

Results: 1 wild card game

Rich Kotite (1995-1996): Glenn Foley (3). Bubby Brister (4), Neil O'Donnell (6), Frank Reich (7), Boomer Esiason (12)

Results: Whole lotta BAD

Bill Parcells (1997 - 1999): Glenn Foley (5), Rick Mirer (6), Ray Lucas (9), Vinny Testaverde (13)

Results: 1 AFC Championship

Herman Edwards (2001 - 2005): Quincy Carter (3), Brooks Bollinger (9), Vinny Testaverde (31), Chad Pennington (37)

Results: 3 playoff appearances out of 5 seasons

Eric Mangini (2006 - 2008): Kellen Clemens (8), Brett Favre (16), Chad Pennington (24)

Results: 1 playoff appearance

Rex Ryan (2009 - 2014): Kellen Clemens (1), Greg McElroy (1), Michael Vick (3), Geno Smith (29), Mark Sanchez (62)

Results: 2 AFC Championship appearances

Todd Bowles (2015 - Now): Geno Smith (1), Josh McCown (1), Bryce Petty (4), Ryan Fitzpatrick (27)

The 'best' coaches,  Walt Michaels, Joe Walton, Rex Ryan and Herman Edwards (appearances in the playoffs)  had one thing in common: stability at quarterback.  The longest tenured starters, Richard Todd, Ken O'Brien, Vinny Testaverde, and Chad Pennington, gave their coaches more starts.  They are also the four best QB's to play on the team since Namath (although, that is not saying much for Richard Todd). 

So, whether Todd Bowles stays or not, or Bill Cowher comes out of retirement, unless we solve that QB issue, it isn't going to matter. 

To me, it is unfortunate that this league has evolved over time to become more reliant on just one player.  But, it is what it is.......

 

[NYs Stepchild]

4 minutes ago, CanadaSteve said:

Someone made a great point in another thread that it does not matter who they bring in to coach this team because we keep failing to provide them with the obvious: A QB that can play.  So I thought, let's take a look at our coaching history, and see who was saddled with whom. I skipped over the Joe Namath era and a few years after, and started with Walt Michaels, only because that is the first Jet coach that I TRULY remember as a kid, and I skipped over one year wonders Pete Carroll and Al Groh:

Walt Michaels (1977 - 1982): Matt Domres (2 games) Richard Todd (16) Matt Robinson (13) Richard Todd (56)

Results: 2 playoff appearances, including 1 AFC Championship

Joe Walton (1983 - 1989): Kyle Mackey (1), Tony Eason (2), David Norrie (2), Richard Todd (16), Pat Ryan (19),  Ken O'Brien (71)

Results: 2 Wild card appearances

Bruce Coslet (1990 - 1993): Browning Nagle (13), Boomer Esiason (16), Ken O'Brien (35)

Results: 1 wild card game

Rich Kotite (1995-1996): Glenn Foley (3). Bubby Brister (4), Neil O'Donnell (6), Frank Reich (7), Boomer Esiason (12)

Results: Whole lotta BAD

Bill Parcells (1997 - 1999): Glenn Foley (5), Rick Mirer (6), Ray Lucas (9), Vinny Testaverde (13)

Results: 1 AFC Championship

Herman Edwards (2001 - 2005): Quincy Carter (3), Brooks Bollinger (9), Vinny Testaverde (31), Chad Pennington (37)

Results: 3 playoff appearances out of 5 seasons

Eric Mangini (2006 - 2008): Kellen Clemens (8), Brett Favre (16), Chad Pennington (24)

Results: 1 playoff appearance

Rex Ryan (2009 - 2014): Kellen Clemens (1), Greg McElroy (1), Michael Vick (3), Geno Smith (29), Mark Sanchez (62)

Results: 2 AFC Championship appearances

Todd Bowles (2015 - Now): Geno Smith (1), Josh McCown (1), Bryce Petty (4), Ryan Fitzpatrick (27)

The 'best' coaches,  Walt Michaels, Joe Walton, Rex Ryan and Herman Edwards (appearances in the playoffs)  had one thing in common: stability at quarterback.  The longest tenured starters, Richard Todd, Ken O'Brien, Vinny Testaverde, and Chad Pennington, gave their coaches more starts.  They are also the four best QB's to play on the team since Namath (although, that is not saying much for Richard Todd). 

So, whether Todd Bowles stays or not, or Bill Cowher comes out of retirement, unless we solve that QB issue, it isn't going to matter. 

To me, it is unfortunate that this league has evolved over time to become more reliant on just one player.  But, it is what it is.......

 

They get a very big say in which QB they draft. Some of them had all the say. 

Instead they choose to sign and ride older journeyman QBs and let the prospects collect their checks holding clipboards. That's on them.

When they do decide to play a prospect they tend to give them way to much time after they've proven to be busts and let other prospects slip by in the interim.

We could be starting Carr, or Bridgewater for instance. 

[Jetster]

Not only is having a competent QB of #1 importance (This is proven by the fact a team like the Oakland Raiders who have sucked for 17 years now drafted Derek Carr & on Sunday they are 14 point favorites over the Jets), but, another problem is the deterioration of offensive lines, the lack of Pro offenses in college to get olineman ready for the NFL, no NFL Europe to teach them and the lack of offseason practice time to get these young olineman up to speed.

The Bills beat us because of one thing only, their Oline is seasoned & all five starters have played together for 2 seasons! They have a pro bowl center & some tough strong veteran SOBs. Then, you watch last nights game Texas vs Bengals, ugh! Horrible olines, horrifically ugly game to watch, D players up front just way more athletic & powerful than the schleps trying to block them.

The NFL has a QB & Oline problem and they go hand in hand with the quality of the sport. Andrew Luck is a star QB in this league, except he's on the sidelines after surgery because he's been taking a beating the last 3 years. Look at the success of Carr, Prescott, even an average Taylor, being protected by a good line. 

The Jets Oline in 2009/2010 literally hid so many deficiencies of a truly mediocre Mark Sanchez. He's a back up QB in this league, nothing more and that is his ceiling, (the Jets Oline fooled us into thinking their was more). This is the reason I haven't given up on Petty or Hackenberg. Petty played behind what is at FULL STRENTH an average Oline but was missing 3 starters! How do you truly get a read on a young QB getting up from off of his back? Or constantly under pressure? Or constantly in 3rd & 10 because they can't run block either (2017 version of the Jets oline). It's a dilemma not easily fixable. The team we play Sunday it took them almost 20 years back to respectability & we here cry every day about Maccs first 3 years here.

[sciond]

Sadly I have watched every one of those seasons. Probably the Walt Michaels era was my favorite.

[NYs Stepchild]

21 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Not only is having a competent QB of #1 importance (This is proven by the fact a team like the Oakland Raiders who have sucked for 17 years now drafted Derek Carr & on Sunday they are 14 point favorites over the Jets), but, another problem is the deterioration of offensive lines, the lack of Pro offenses in college to get olineman ready for the NFL, no NFL Europe to teach them and the lack of offseason practice time to get these young olineman up to speed.

The Bills beat us because of one thing only, their Oline is seasoned & all five starters have played together for 2 seasons! They have a pro bowl center & some tough strong veteran SOBs. Then, you watch last nights game Texas vs Bengals, ugh! Horrible olines, horrifically ugly game to watch, D players up front just way more athletic & powerful than the schleps trying to block them.

The NFL has a QB & Oline problem and they go hand in hand with the quality of the sport. Andrew Luck is a star QB in this league, except he's on the sidelines after surgery because he's been taking a beating the last 3 years. Look at the success of Carr, Prescott, even an average Taylor, being protected by a good line. 

The Jets Oline in 2009/2010 literally hid so many deficiencies of a truly mediocre Mark Sanchez. He's a back up QB in this league, nothing more and that is his ceiling, (the Jets Oline fooled us into thinking their was more). This is the reason I haven't given up on Petty or Hackenberg. Petty played behind what is at FULL STRENTH an average Oline but was missing 3 starters! How do you truly get a read on a young QB getting up from off of his back? Or constantly under pressure? Or constantly in 3rd & 10 because they can't run block either (2017 version of the Jets oline). It's a dilemma not easily fixable. The team we play Sunday it took them almost 20 years back to respectability & we here cry every day about Maccs first 3 years here.

I agree with a lot of this. Everyone knows that pro QBs are suffering because of the option but no one seems to realize that there is a drought of Olineman for the same reason. 

What I don't particularly agree with is that our Oline is so bad and that they could not have taken some chances in Buf. Compared to what it was our line is bad but they're bad around the league. You need to scheme around that and we just refused to do so, or the QB just didn't feel confident enough to do so.

Yes QBs need to see where the rush is coming from and McC can do that okay. The one sack he never did see the DB coming, and it wasn't on the oline. What good QBs do however is make you pay for coming forward at the snap, and they were all coming forward at the snap. Those short passes only work if you keep the safeties honest. 

They were run blitzing, and stunting all day. There are ways to put a stop to that. The deep middle was open. We needed to hit that TE seem pass more often especially once we saw that they were ignoring it and the safeties were cheating up. Then we could use that TE to clear out for wide open posts.

We also needed to use misdirection in the run game, and beat them with passes to our back in different spots to keep them guessing. Forte was not the man for this job anymore. We did try but he's just to slow and they ignored him when he ran the go, and waited for him to catch the ball to close on him. 

As far as Buf's Oline we pretty much controlled them if our MLBs hadn't over pursued on almost every play, and bit on every fake. Skrine needs to be relegated to the slot only. 

[JustInFudge]

Agreed.  A QB would be really cool.  

[Ex-Rex]

1 hour ago, sciond said:

Sadly I have watched every one of those seasons. Probably the Walt Michaels era was my favorite.

Jets history went sideways when they fired that man. A team takes on the personality of their coach and Michaels was no nonsense, tough as nails, make no excuses, while Walton was a "not my fault", pass the buck, blame the injured stars - Fields and Klecko - while pampering Gastineau. Kotite was a complete joke and Coslet was hampered by a GM who was dying of cancer. 

[bitonti]

2 hours ago, NYs Stepchild said:

They get a very big say in which QB they draft. Some of them had all the say.  

 

that's not how head coaching works. 

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, Jetster said:

Not only is having a competent QB of #1 importance (This is proven by the fact a team like the Oakland Raiders who have sucked for 17 years now drafted Derek Carr & on Sunday they are 14 point favorites over the Jets), but, another problem is the deterioration of offensive lines, the lack of Pro offenses in college to get olineman ready for the NFL, no NFL Europe to teach them and the lack of offseason practice time to get these young olineman up to speed.

The Bills beat us because of one thing only, their Oline is seasoned & all five starters have played together for 2 seasons! They have a pro bowl center & some tough strong veteran SOBs. Then, you watch last nights game Texas vs Bengals, ugh! Horrible olines, horrifically ugly game to watch, D players up front just way more athletic & powerful than the schleps trying to block them.

The NFL has a QB & Oline problem and they go hand in hand with the quality of the sport. Andrew Luck is a star QB in this league, except he's on the sidelines after surgery because he's been taking a beating the last 3 years. Look at the success of Carr, Prescott, even an average Taylor, being protected by a good line. 

The Jets Oline in 2009/2010 literally hid so many deficiencies of a truly mediocre Mark Sanchez. He's a back up QB in this league, nothing more and that is his ceiling, (the Jets Oline fooled us into thinking their was more). This is the reason I haven't given up on Petty or Hackenberg. Petty played behind what is at FULL STRENTH an average Oline but was missing 3 starters! How do you truly get a read on a young QB getting up from off of his back? Or constantly under pressure? Or constantly in 3rd & 10 because they can't run block either (2017 version of the Jets oline). It's a dilemma not easily fixable. The team we play Sunday it took them almost 20 years back to respectability & we here cry every day about Maccs first 3 years here.

mostly agree.  i don't necessarily agree with the oline problem although the nfl has become more of a passing game so the players  primarily learn how to pass block.  run blocking seems to be a lost art at times. as for the jets i am hopeful that the current makeup will be good once they start to play together. there have been worse olines that seem to get by okay. and qb's that take beatings that are often self inflicted.  luck wants to go down field all the time so he hold the ball too long.

[NYs Stepchild]

32 minutes ago, bitonti said:

that's not how head coaching works. 

Head coaching really doesn't seem to work at all around here but Mangini and Parcells both had complete control of their rosters. 

The others of course have a strong say in which players will fit their scheme.

If you'd like to show me some quotes where a GM says he doesn't consult the HC at all about personnel decisions go ahead and prove me wrong.

[NYs Stepchild]

41 minutes ago, Ex-Rex said:

Jets history went sideways when they fired that man. A team takes on the personality of their coach and Michaels was no nonsense, tough as nails, make no excuses, while Walton was a "not my fault", pass the buck, blame the injured stars - Fields and Klecko - while pampering Gastineau. Kotite was a complete joke and Coslet was hampered by a GM who was dying of cancer. 

Walton was a sweaty little weasel that played injured players and threw anyone and everyone under the bus. He saw traitors everywhere and wore a tin foil hat. 

Coslet was a bone head. Anyone that decided to get his hair cut like that shouldn't have been trusted to make any decisions. 

[nyjunc]

3 hours ago, CanadaSteve said:

Someone made a great point in another thread that it does not matter who they bring in to coach this team because we keep failing to provide them with the obvious: A QB that can play.  So I thought, let's take a look at our coaching history, and see who was saddled with whom. I skipped over the Joe Namath era and a few years after, and started with Walt Michaels, only because that is the first Jet coach that I TRULY remember as a kid, and I skipped over one year wonders Pete Carroll and Al Groh:

Walt Michaels (1977 - 1982): Matt Domres (2 games) Richard Todd (16) Matt Robinson (13) Richard Todd (56)

Results: 2 playoff appearances, including 1 AFC Championship

Joe Walton (1983 - 1989): Kyle Mackey (1), Tony Eason (2), David Norrie (2), Richard Todd (16), Pat Ryan (19),  Ken O'Brien (71)

Results: 2 Wild card appearances

Bruce Coslet (1990 - 1993): Browning Nagle (13), Boomer Esiason (16), Ken O'Brien (35)

Results: 1 wild card game

Rich Kotite (1995-1996): Glenn Foley (3). Bubby Brister (4), Neil O'Donnell (6), Frank Reich (7), Boomer Esiason (12)

Results: Whole lotta BAD

Bill Parcells (1997 - 1999): Glenn Foley (5), Rick Mirer (6), Ray Lucas (9), Vinny Testaverde (13)

Results: 1 AFC Championship

Herman Edwards (2001 - 2005): Quincy Carter (3), Brooks Bollinger (9), Vinny Testaverde (31), Chad Pennington (37)

Results: 3 playoff appearances out of 5 seasons

Eric Mangini (2006 - 2008): Kellen Clemens (8), Brett Favre (16), Chad Pennington (24)

Results: 1 playoff appearance

Rex Ryan (2009 - 2014): Kellen Clemens (1), Greg McElroy (1), Michael Vick (3), Geno Smith (29), Mark Sanchez (62)

Results: 2 AFC Championship appearances

Todd Bowles (2015 - Now): Geno Smith (1), Josh McCown (1), Bryce Petty (4), Ryan Fitzpatrick (27)

The 'best' coaches,  Walt Michaels, Joe Walton, Rex Ryan and Herman Edwards (appearances in the playoffs)  had one thing in common: stability at quarterback.  The longest tenured starters, Richard Todd, Ken O'Brien, Vinny Testaverde, and Chad Pennington, gave their coaches more starts.  They are also the four best QB's to play on the team since Namath (although, that is not saying much for Richard Todd). 

So, whether Todd Bowles stays or not, or Bill Cowher comes out of retirement, unless we solve that QB issue, it isn't going to matter. 

To me, it is unfortunate that this league has evolved over time to become more reliant on just one player.  But, it is what it is.......

 

Ken O'Brien is incredibly overrated by Jet fans and are you putting Richard Todd above Sanchez?  you mention rex and QB stability but don't mention Sanchez?  O'Brien had a good season and a half, started much longer than he should have but in those days teams didn't play musical QBs they way they do today, same deal w/ Todd.  we got Vinny way too late, he had the best season in jets history at QB.  Chad was always hurt or would have been the best QB in our franchise history, Namath damaged goods or he could have been a real great QB not some myth.

as a franchise we have never had a great QB, we have had some individual years of great play but never a great QB to build around.  some teams have won SBs w/o great QBs, actually many have but the teams that have numerous opportunities have great QBs.  we get solid QB play every once in a while and will make a run every once in a while.

[Jetster]

2 hours ago, rangerous said:

mostly agree.  i don't necessarily agree with the oline problem although the nfl has become more of a passing game so the players  primarily learn how to pass block.  run blocking seems to be a lost art at times. as for the jets i am hopeful that the current makeup will be good once they start to play together. there have been worse olines that seem to get by okay. and qb's that take beatings that are often self inflicted.  luck wants to go down field all the time so he hold the ball too long.

Well, than I guess you don't agree with Bill Polian who specifically spoke about this very thing the other day regarding Oline play in the NFL. That dude built a great roster in Buffalo man, you have to give kudos & take heed from a guy that smart who was part of the NFL as long as he's been.

[Pcola]

Joe Walton had a ton of influence on taking O'Brien over Marino in '83.  His offense was too "difficult" for Marino to master.

Than Coslet hated O'Brien so much he pushed for his replacement, any replacement in the '91 draft.  When the Jets trade to move up to take Favre fell through at the last second, they panicked and drafted Nagle.

So coaching does play a huge roll in who our QBs are.  And the current FO/CS seem too afraid to make a commitment on a QB thinking that they can still pass the blame on the prior regime.  Eventually they have to go all in and put their jobs on the line.  It appears that they calculated the perfect time to do so.

[Larz]

No wonder this fanbase is obsessed with backups magically becoming starters

[CanadaSteve]

All good points about the Oline man.  This is ANOTHER good reason why the NFL needs a farm system. 

[jack48]

Bring a GM in, let him pick the coach. OR bring a coach in, let him pick his GM.  Just don't do it the way the Jets did it.  The Jets sought the worst possible way to do this, and found it

[rangerous]

On 9/15/2017 at 1:17 PM, nyjunc said:

Ken O'Brien is incredibly overrated by Jet fans and are you putting Richard Todd above Sanchez?  you mention rex and QB stability but don't mention Sanchez?  O'Brien had a good season and a half, started much longer than he should have but in those days teams didn't play musical QBs they way they do today, same deal w/ Todd.  we got Vinny way too late, he had the best season in jets history at QB.  Chad was always hurt or would have been the best QB in our franchise history, Namath damaged goods or he could have been a real great QB not some myth.

as a franchise we have never had a great QB, we have had some individual years of great play but never a great QB to build around.  some teams have won SBs w/o great QBs, actually many have but the teams that have numerous opportunities have great QBs.  we get solid QB play every once in a while and will make a run every once in a while.

parcells had odonnell his first season.  as for obrien, he did some very good things.  he had an excellent arm and was very accurate.  but he did hold onto the ball too long at times and took way too many sacks. the other problem is he was a player during a strike year. walton completely lost the team after that.  if you think they kept obrien too long then you must really think they should have kept chaddy about a season and a half.  once the injury bug hit chaddy was toast. and they did have sanchez for five seasons and signed him to an extension before idzik launched him. imo sanchez just didn't have the maturity to put in all of the hard work necessary to succeed, especially in the ny market.

[rangerous]

On 9/15/2017 at 2:43 PM, Jetster said:

Well, than I guess you don't agree with Bill Polian who specifically spoke about this very thing the other day regarding Oline play in the NFL. That dude built a great roster in Buffalo man, you have to give kudos & take heed from a guy that smart who was part of the NFL as long as he's been.

without specifics it's hard to agree or disagree with polian.  what i will say is lots of teams seem to do okay with jury rigged olines.  a good oline is very nice but at the same time the qb's need to do themselves favors by not taking sacks and protecting the ball.  if there is a problem it's because the college game is pass happy so the lines don't learn how to run block.  run blocking takes attitude.  that's why a guy like incognito is still good.  and the buffalo line has been playing together as a unit for more than one season.

[Jetster]

15 hours ago, rangerous said:

parcells had odonnell his first season.  as for obrien, he did some very good things.  he had an excellent arm and was very accurate.  but he did hold onto the ball too long at times and took way too many sacks. the other problem is he was a player during a strike year. walton completely lost the team after that.  if you think they kept obrien too long then you must really think they should have kept chaddy about a season and a half.  once the injury bug hit chaddy was toast. and they did have sanchez for five seasons and signed him to an extension before idzik launched him. imo sanchez just didn't have the maturity to put in all of the hard work necessary to succeed, especially in the ny market.

Ken Obrien played behind a very bad Jets Oline in the 2nd half of his career. I don't remember all of their names but they had a LT that's was constantly getting false starts, Chriswell? 

[NYs Stepchild]

6 minutes ago, Jetster said:

Ken Obrien played behind a very bad Jets Oline in the 2nd half of his career. I don't remember all of their names but they had a LT that's was constantly getting false starts, Chriswell? 

You mean the scab. Yeah that line was bad but he couldn't run a lick, and couldn't throw the ball away. Coaching was bad.

 He stood in there and got clobbered or threw it up to Toon to get him killed. 

He needed a burner at Z receiver and a TE to open things up for Toon. O'Briens strength was his deep ball and his seam passes. They never gave him that after 87. 

I think he had a good year or 2 left in him when they sat him for Nagle then gave away his jersey to Boomer. If you check the records you'll see 4-12, 6-10, 8-8 then Nagle back to 4-12. 

[nyjunc]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 4:43 PM, rangerous said:

parcells had odonnell his first season.  as for obrien, he did some very good things.  he had an excellent arm and was very accurate.  but he did hold onto the ball too long at times and took way too many sacks. the other problem is he was a player during a strike year. walton completely lost the team after that.  if you think they kept obrien too long then you must really think they should have kept chaddy about a season and a half.  once the injury bug hit chaddy was toast. and they did have sanchez for five seasons and signed him to an extension before idzik launched him. imo sanchez just didn't have the maturity to put in all of the hard work necessary to succeed, especially in the ny market.

now the strike is the excuse for O'Brien?  how did they go 8-7-1 the year after the strike? O'Brien was very good for about a year and a half but even at his peak never won a playoff game for us yet after being benched his backup won a playoff game for us w/ the same talent around them.

Chad was so much better than O'Brien, the only negative w/ Chad is he couldn't stay healthy.  his 2 playoff wins are 2 more than Ken ever had, he also won a rare division title. when he was mostly healthy we made the playoffs and could win playoff games.  Ken was drafted onto one of the most talented, young teams in the AFC and never won a playoff game.  not a single one.

yes Ken was better than Browning Nagle but that tells you how badly the HC wanted to move on from ken after 1991 even though we made the playoffs at 8-8 and appeared headed up. 

[nyjunc]

23 hours ago, Jetster said:

Ken Obrien played behind a very bad Jets Oline in the 2nd half of his career. I don't remember all of their names but they had a LT that's was constantly getting false starts, Chriswell? 

no he didn't, they had a couple of bad years as some of the young guys developed but he had good OLs the majority of his career. he just held the ball too long always looking for the big play.  he was a drew Bledsoe type w/ even less mobility except at least Drew won a couple of playoff games even if Curtis carried him there.

[TMAC]

I believe that there will be several (possibly even 5) potential quality (maybe even elite) QBs in the 2018 draft.  It is imperative that we have a GM who can properly evaluate QB talent.  Macc has demonstrated that he cannot.

[nyjunc]

9 minutes ago, TMAC said:

I believe that there will be several (possibly even 5) potential quality (maybe even elite) QBs in the 2018 draft.  It is imperative that we have a GM who can properly evaluate QB talent.  Macc has demonstrated that he cannot.

every year people say the same things, every year some QBs get taken too high and some get taken too low.  it's still an inexact science but some day we will have to hit on one, I'm, not asking for Brady but something along the lines of a solid, durable starter like an Eli.

[rangerous]

45 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

now the strike is the excuse for O'Brien?  how did they go 8-7-1 the year after the strike? O'Brien was very good for about a year and a half but even at his peak never won a playoff game for us yet after being benched his backup won a playoff game for us w/ the same talent around them.

Chad was so much better than O'Brien, the only negative w/ Chad is he couldn't stay healthy.  his 2 playoff wins are 2 more than Ken ever had, he also won a rare division title. when he was mostly healthy we made the playoffs and could win playoff games.  Ken was drafted onto one of the most talented, young teams in the AFC and never won a playoff game.  not a single one.

yes Ken was better than Browning Nagle but that tells you how badly the HC wanted to move on from ken after 1991 even though we made the playoffs at 8-8 and appeared headed up. 

okay so make injury as an excuse for chaddy?  don't get me wrong, in 2001 and 2002 i thought that chaddy was absolutely great.  they were making noise about brady but imo chaddy was just as good even if he didn't have a really good long ball.  the injuries changed all that.  after the wrist and the shoulder it was plenty clear his days were over. too bad it happened but that's the way it works out at times.  now i know people will say he led the doltfins to the playoffs and that's true but he was out of football the year after and that season was more about his will as a player as opposed to his physical ability.

that's why getting a qb is so tough.  99% of the qb prospects can make all the throws and have enough physical talent.  but some clearly don't understand the game or it takes them a long time to figure it out. if you want to criticise obrien the leadership aspect is where he would score the lowest.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, rangerous said:

okay so make injury as an excuse for chaddy?  don't get me wrong, in 2001 and 2002 i thought that chaddy was absolutely great.  they were making noise about brady but imo chaddy was just as good even if he didn't have a really good long ball.  the injuries changed all that.  after the wrist and the shoulder it was plenty clear his days were over. too bad it happened but that's the way it works out at times.  now i know people will say he led the doltfins to the playoffs and that's true but he was out of football the year after and that season was more about his will as a player as opposed to his physical ability.

that's why getting a qb is so tough.  99% of the qb prospects can make all the throws and have enough physical talent.  but some clearly don't understand the game or it takes them a long time to figure it out. if you want to criticise obrien the leadership aspect is where he would score the lowest.

it's not really an excuse, it's a fact.  I think in every season he played at least 12 games we made the playoffs, ufortunately it only happened 3 times.  he did it a 4th time w/ Miami and they made the playoffs a year after going 1-15.

Vinny was our QB in 2001

in 2002 Chad was the 2nd best QB in football behind only league MVP Rich Gannon

In 2003 he broke his wrist preseason and we had lost Coles. 

In 2004 he was on his way to another great season until he tore his rotator cuff, he only missed 3 games and came back to help us reach div rd and nearly the title game if his K could make oine of 2 makeable kicks.

in 2005 he tore rotator cuff again and our season was lost in September b/c of it.

In 2006 he played 16 games and we were back in the playoffs.

 

he didn't have a strong arm to begin with them after multiple rotator cuff surgeries it really affected him. he adjusted and made the playoffs multiple times but he wasn't the same guy as 2002.

 

O'Brien can be criticized for many things, like Chad his career changed w/ an injury.  unlike Chad he couldn't adjust and unlike Chad pre injury he couldn't win a playoff game w/ a better roster.  Ken was my favorite player as a kid but as I got older and understood the game better I realized he wasn't as good as I thought and he held us back.  I still like ken but for fans to try to prop him up like he was better than Cad or even Sanchez is laughable.  I started going to every game in 1990, the 2 years he was our starting QB he was booed almost weekly.  if ken had the same career in this era he would be crucified on boards like this, on social media, etc...  but over time we forget and we see some pretty deep balls on the highlights and think he was better than he was.

[Savage69]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

no he didn't, they had a couple of bad years as some of the young guys developed but he had good OLs the majority of his career. he just held the ball too long always looking for the big play.  he was a drew Bledsoe type w/ even less mobility except at least Drew won a couple of playoff games even if Curtis carried him there.

In 1996 when the Pats made the Bowl Curtis was outrushed by Murrell on the 1-15 Jets.. Martin avg 3.6 ypc a bit better then his 3.5 in 1998..

[nyjunc]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:58 AM, Savage69 said:

In 1996 when the Pats made the Bowl Curtis was outrushed by Murrell on the 1-15 Jets.. Martin avg 3.6 ypc a bit better then his 3.5 in 1998..

in 3 postseason games he rushed 49 times for 267 yards, 5.4 YPC, 5 TDs.  They don't get to the SB w/o Curtis(and w/o Denver getting upset by jacksonville)

[#27TheDominator]

On 9/18/2017 at 8:01 AM, nyjunc said:

if ken had the same career in this era he would be crucified on boards like this, on social media, etc...  but over time we forget and we see some pretty deep balls on the highlights and think he was better than he was.

He would also have earned a long term contract @$25M per year.

[Jetster]

I think my point about the bad olines was highlighted last night by the Giants. Now they have coming up Philly, Bucs, Chargers (Bosa), Denver & Seattle, all teams that can get after the QB, lol. Good luck Eli...not. Giants may have a worse record than Jets after 7 games.

[nyjunc]

5 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

He would also have earned a long term contract @$25M per year.

and some GM that gave him that deal would have been fired pretty quickly.

[nyjunc]

4 hours ago, Jetster said:

I think my point about the bad olines was highlighted last night by the Giants. Now they have coming up Philly, Bucs, Chargers (Bosa), Denver & Seattle, all teams that can get after the QB, lol. Good luck Eli...not. Giants may have a worse record than Jets after 7 games.

the Giants OL is not good but not all those sacks were on the OL. 

[Charlie Brown]

On 9/18/2017 at 8:58 AM, Savage69 said:

In 1996 when the Pats made the Bowl Curtis was outrushed by Murrell on the 1-15 Jets.. Martin avg 3.6 ypc a bit better then his 3.5 in 1998..

I miss you picking on C Martin!!  

So I say..

 

[Pcola]

On 9/16/2017 at 4:43 PM, rangerous said:

parcells had odonnell his first season.  as for obrien, he did some very good things.  he had an excellent arm and was very accurate.  but he did hold onto the ball too long at times and took way too many sacks. the other problem is he was a player during a strike year. walton completely lost the team after that.  if you think they kept obrien too long then you must really think they should have kept chaddy about a season and a half.  once the injury bug hit chaddy was toast. and they did have sanchez for five seasons and signed him to an extension before idzik launched him. imo sanchez just didn't have the maturity to put in all of the hard work necessary to succeed, especially in the ny market.

O'Brien didn't cross the picket line, that was Pat Ryan and only for the last week/game.