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Here's the Jets Defense


Vader

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It's a 43. 

 

              Maye      Adams 

Burris                                Claiborne 

       Davis/Lee/Stanford/Carter

  Lee/Davis               Jenkins/Stanford

 Martin   Williams/McClendon/Mo   Ealy

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The personel on this team is hallmark 43.

The 34 requires a NT. McClendon isn't that player. He's actually just as well suited to shoot the gap.

Mo and Williams. These players aren't outside rushers. Put them both in the middle and let them work and clog and collapse the pocket. Rotate McClendon.

Ealy and Martin. Two bright spots. But put them in a position to succeed. Put them on a 43, bookending a strong interior. Both can get to the QB on any down. 

34 LB: you can't run an effective 34 without an effective NT. Which we don't really have. You also need specific kinds of LBs. a playmaking MLB, a MLB that can destroy blocks ala Bart Scott. And you need a 34 pass rushing OLB. We haven't had the latter since Abraham and its a major reason that every single regime has failed to implement long term an effective 34 front.

SLB. Lee/Davis. These are the guys that are supposed to be able to cover. SLB in a 43 is where Lee should be playing -- even a mike in a 43 if he gains experience. Maye is over the top to help with coverage.

MLB. Davis for now even tho he can't tackle. You also have Stanford and carter. And Lee... These guys can range. Let them. Let Williams, Wilk, and McClendon keep the OGs off of Mike. In a 34, we are running Lee and Davis out there. Which one of these guys can shed OGs without help? The 43 gives them help... lets them range, shoot gaps, and make plays.

WLB: Jenkins/Stanford. Not much more needs to be said.

sub packages would include inserting a nickel CB (skrine/Burris) and or an extra safety (brooks) for LBs, or LB/DL combo.

----

i am sick of the 34, it's ineffective implementation, lack of pass rush, and misuse of personnel.

 

 

 

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Just now, LIJetsFan said:

This is way Snacks should have been the PRIORITY FA signing.  

Moving snacks, and jettisoning Simon and other potential REAL NTs would be an obvious move to a 43 that became explicitly clear once Richardson was traded. Now there's no glut of DTs. Best players on the field and it's a 43 that features what should be an impenetrable interior with fast, rangey LBs

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Imagine if we had a coach that actually knew what to do with the players he had. Could actually have something. Who knows. Guys are just constantly out of position and maybe Lee wouldn't look like such a bust if he was used somewhat properly. They had Donahue dropping back into coverage, the kid who's supposed to be a relentless pass rusher. I just don't understand these decisions.  

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3 minutes ago, MDL_JET said:

Imagine if we had a coach that actually knew what to do with the players he had. Could actually have something. Who knows. Guys are just constantly out of position and maybe Lee wouldn't look like such a bust if he was used somewhat properly. They had Donahue dropping back into coverage, the kid who's supposed to be a relentless pass rusher. I just don't understand these decisions.  

this is why i'm not down on darron lee or other defensive guys they've drafted.  let the next coach use them properly.

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20 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

this is why i'm not down on darron lee or other defensive guys they've drafted.  let the next coach use them properly.

Of course its a complete unknown but Id love to see what guys like Phillips, Schwartz, Zimmer would do with the Jets defensive personnel. Bowles defense hasn't been very good since hes gotten here? And it certainly hasn't gotten better, its gotten worse. 

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The interesting thing to me is CB.  Most of these defensive gurus have one spot they need handled.  Rex NEEDED cover CBs.  If I were his GM I would have given them to him and spent the rest of my resources on offense.  Force him to use scheme for pressure and to stop the run.  Figured that Bowles was the same.  In 2015 they came in and spent on 3 CBs, plus a safety that was a converted high pick at CB.  Figured cover CBs were important to Bowles.  He had Peterson, Cro and Powers in Arizona with Mathieu at S who is basically another cover CB.  Now the GM seems to be treating him to all his safety help - but the CBs seem like longer, slower cover 2 types.  I understand looking for value, but...

The only rational explanation would be that they feel, like the Seahawks, that you can't teach length, but you can teach technique and these larger guys would be better able to jam.  Burris in particular is not fast.  Clark this year is very similar, fairly slow, coming off an ACL and he and Burris both had high bench reps (20 and 19).  Jones is much more explosive, he is faster and killed the jumps.  A crazy 11'8" broad jump, which people would probably have been talking about more if it weren't for Byron Jones 12 footer in 2015.  Still, they are length over technique/speed guys.

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1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

The interesting thing to me is CB.  Most of these defensive gurus have one spot they need handled.  Rex NEEDED cover CBs.  If I were his GM I would have given them to him and spent the rest of my resources on offense.  Force him to use scheme for pressure and to stop the run.  Figured that Bowles was the same.  In 2015 they came in and spent on 3 CBs, plus a safety that was a converted high pick at CB.  Figured cover CBs were important to Bowles.  He had Peterson, Cro and Powers in Arizona with Mathieu at S who is basically another cover CB.  Now the GM seems to be treating him to all his safety help - but the CBs seem like longer, slower cover 2 types.  I understand looking for value, but...

The only rational explanation would be that they feel, like the Seahawks, that you can't teach length, but you can teach technique and these larger guys would be better able to jam.  Burris in particular is not fast.  Clark this year is very similar, fairly slow, coming off an ACL and he and Burris both had high bench reps (20 and 19).  Jones is much more explosive, he is faster and killed the jumps.  A crazy 11'8" broad jump, which people would probably have been talking about more if it weren't for Byron Jones 12 footer in 2015.  Still, they are length over technique/speed guys.

Jones is very raw but man he's got the makeup. Would love to see him develop into a Cromarty type, same type of build. I think we'll see him as the year progresses getting some chances. 

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6 hours ago, Vader said:

It's a 43. 

 

              Maye      Adams 

Burris                                Claiborne 

       Davis/Lee/Stanford/Carter

  Lee/Davis               Jenkins/Stanford

 Martin   Williams/McClendon/Mo   Ealy

-----

The personel on this team is hallmark 43.

The 34 requires a NT. McClendon isn't that player. He's actually just as well suited to shoot the gap.

Mo and Williams. These players aren't outside rushers. Put them both in the middle and let them work and clog and collapse the pocket. Rotate McClendon.

Ealy and Martin. Two bright spots. But put them in a position to succeed. Put them on a 43, bookending a strong interior. Both can get to the QB on any down. 

34 LB: you can't run an effective 34 without an effective NT. Which we don't really have. You also need specific kinds of LBs. a playmaking MLB, a MLB that can destroy blocks ala Bart Scott. And you need a 34 pass rushing OLB. We haven't had the latter since Abraham and its a major reason that every single regime has failed to implement long term an effective 34 front.

SLB. Lee/Davis. These are the guys that are supposed to be able to cover. SLB in a 43 is where Lee should be playing -- even a mike in a 43 if he gains experience. Maye is over the top to help with coverage.

MLB. Davis for now even tho he can't tackle. You also have Stanford and carter. And Lee... These guys can range. Let them. Let Williams, Wilk, and McClendon keep the OGs off of Mike. In a 34, we are running Lee and Davis out there. Which one of these guys can shed OGs without help? The 43 gives them help... lets them range, shoot gaps, and make plays.

WLB: Jenkins/Stanford. Not much more needs to be said.

sub packages would include inserting a nickel CB (skrine/Burris) and or an extra safety (brooks) for LBs, or LB/DL combo.

----

i am sick of the 34, it's ineffective implementation, lack of pass rush, and misuse of personnel.

 

 

 

not to state the obvious but if the team has 4-3 personnel then they should be playing 4-3.  the coaches need to play to the players strengths and not try to force fit them into positions they can't handle. i'm not saying they don't have the personnel but question why they haven't already thought this.

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16 minutes ago, rangerous said:

not to state the obvious but if the team has 4-3 personnel then they should be playing 4-3.  the coaches need to play to the players strengths and not try to force fit them into positions they can't handle. i'm not saying they don't have the personnel but question why they haven't already thought this.

One problem Kacey Rogers, sorry two Todd Bowles.

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14 minutes ago, Saul Goodman said:

Neither Ealy nor Martin are 4-3 edge rushers. Nor is anyone on this roster. I'm up for trying anything but switching to a 4-3 doesn't solve our defensive problems. 

disagree on that

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18 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

The interesting thing to me is CB.  Most of these defensive gurus have one spot they need handled.  Rex NEEDED cover CBs.  If I were his GM I would have given them to him and spent the rest of my resources on offense.  Force him to use scheme for pressure and to stop the run.  Figured that Bowles was the same.  In 2015 they came in and spent on 3 CBs, plus a safety that was a converted high pick at CB.  Figured cover CBs were important to Bowles.  He had Peterson, Cro and Powers in Arizona with Mathieu at S who is basically another cover CB.  Now the GM seems to be treating him to all his safety help - but the CBs seem like longer, slower cover 2 types.  I understand looking for value, but...

The only rational explanation would be that they feel, like the Seahawks, that you can't teach length, but you can teach technique and these larger guys would be better able to jam.  Burris in particular is not fast.  Clark this year is very similar, fairly slow, coming off an ACL and he and Burris both had high bench reps (20 and 19).  Jones is much more explosive, he is faster and killed the jumps.  A crazy 11'8" broad jump, which people would probably have been talking about more if it weren't for Byron Jones 12 footer in 2015.  Still, they are length over technique/speed guys.

It appears after 3 drafts that Mac feels that CBs can be drafted mid/late rounds and developed. Mac alluded to this belief when he was first hired when it comes to Oline and 3-4 OLBs and has followed through with that philosophy with Mauldin, Jenkins, Donahue, Shell, Burris, Clark and Jones.  Im fine with all of those picks - mauldin hasnt worked out but Shell and Jenkins have been very solid (for 2nd year players) and Buriss and Jones have upside.  The only guy I really dont get is Clark, as he just doesnt seem to fit the athletic profile of an NFL DB.

I just dont get what Bowles does schematically.   Our ILBs are struggling, we have improved safety play, and Clairborne is playing well being isolated - yet we dont walk up a safety to crowd the box and help in run defense?  We cant generate a good pass rush, yet we dont use Lee as a blitzer to at least take advantage of his speed?  We play a CB like Skrine on a 6'3 WR in the red zone?  It seems to me Kacy Rogers and Bowles just dont have a good feel for running a defense together, no idea whose fault it is, but our players are better then the collective performance the team is putting out there.

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11 hours ago, Saul Goodman said:

Neither Ealy nor Martin are 4-3 edge rushers. Nor is anyone on this roster. I'm up for trying anything but switching to a 4-3 doesn't solve our defensive problems. 

Why isnt Ealy a prototypical 4-3 defensive end?

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44 minutes ago, BCJet said:

It appears after 3 drafts that Mac feels that CBs can be drafted mid/late rounds and developed. Mac alluded to this belief when he was first hired when it comes to Oline and 3-4 OLBs and has followed through with that philosophy with Mauldin, Jenkins, Donahue, Shell, Burris, Clark and Jones.  Im fine with all of those picks - mauldin hasnt worked out but Shell and Jenkins have been very solid (for 2nd year players) and Buriss and Jones have upside.  The only guy I really dont get is Clark, as he just doesnt seem to fit the athletic profile of an NFL DB.

I just dont get what Bowles does schematically.   Our ILBs are struggling, we have improved safety play, and Clairborne is playing well being isolated - yet we dont walk up a safety to crowd the box and help in run defense?  We cant generate a good pass rush, yet we dont use Lee as a blitzer to at least take advantage of his speed?  We play a CB like Skrine on a 6'3 WR in the red zone?  It seems to me Kacy Rogers and Bowles just dont have a good feel for running a defense together, no idea whose fault it is, but our players are better then the collective performance the team is putting out there.

Seems to be a truly moronic philosophy.

As I said, I can see that he hopes to develop CBs, though I have seen no indication that his will happen and that seems to be a coach/GM thing, rather than a GM thing.  It is okay to draft guys and hope that Pete Carroll can develop them (Browner, Thurmond, Simon, Sherman) it is another to think just any coaching staff can.  Bowles has the background, but it can't be just a GM thing.  The only success the team has had was with high dollar FA secondary players performing at a high level.

Offensive line? That was Idizk's plan.  It appears it may have worked to some extent.  Winters was apparently worth a second contract.  Aboushi washed out with the Jets, but I think he had some off-field stuff.  He is in the mix to start at G for the Seahawks.  Dozier seems like he may be serviceable.  Shell and Jarvis Harrison are the only offensive linemen that Maccagnan has drafted despite it being a huge problem.  They traded up for Shell which hardly seems like the move you make when you think you can mold mid-round prospects.

The place where I think it is truly idiotic is at OLB.  Pass rush OLBs are among the biggest physical freaks in the NFL.  Long, explosive, that means that they are among the biggest physical freaks on the planet. You simply are not finding these guys in the late rounds, if you do it is a miracle.  A Jordan Jenkins type?  Sure - you can find an edge setter, but what about the other side?  Who is getting after the QB?  As we have seen - nobody.  Since Idzik's first year, the Steelers have drafted Jarvis Jones, Shazier, Bud Dupree and JJ Watt in the first round.  You are not finding 270 lb men that run 4.5s and have 40" verticals in the 5th round.

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3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

The place where I think it is truly idiotic is at OLB.  Pass rush OLBs are among the biggest physical freaks in the NFL.  Long, explosive, that means that they are among the biggest physical freaks on the planet. You simply are not finding these guys in the late rounds, if you do it is a miracle.  A Jordan Jenkins type?  Sure - you can find an edge setter, but what about the other side?  Who is getting after the QB?  As we have seen - nobody.  Since Idzik's first year, the Steelers have drafted Jarvis Jones, Shazier, Bud Dupree and JJ Watt in the first round.  You are not finding 270 lb men that run 4.5s and have 40" verticals in the 5th round.

This is my biggest problem, especially because the book is out on how to scout these guys, and has been for several years. The benchmarks are simple and remarkably consistent, and yet we still go fishing for these leadfooted high-motor guys on day three. It is not an exaggeration to say that your average #DraftTwitter ninny knows significantly more about scouting pass rushers than Maccagnan does.

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The irony is that Bowles was hell-bent on running the 4-3 last year with Sheldon, Wilkerson, and Leo and it was a disaster. We really don't have the personnel to effectively run the 4-3 or the 3-4 in an ideal way, which is why we see a dumpster fire week in and week out.

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4 hours ago, BCJet said:

Why isnt Ealy a prototypical 4-3 defensive end?

He is one, and I think he can be a decent edge rusher, but he looks more like a Strongside DE that can split the TE and RT.  But don't confuse the 4-3 DE with Edge rusher. They are not the same thing.  A 4-3 DE can be an edge rusher but they are not mutually inclusive.

Look at our last opponent.  Mario Edwards is a 4-3 DE, but he's not exactly an edge rusher. Mack certainly fits that bill. 

I lifted this from an article re 4-3 strongside vs weakside that says it better than I can.

Quote

 

Strong-side Defensive End, 5-tech is the primary run defender of the defense. He is C-Gap player and has maintain gap integrity or this defense will not work. Size is a definite help, he has help on the edge from Sam linebacker.

Rush-Defensive End, is also a 5-tech player, but his primary job is to maintain outside leverage / hold the edge. He can be much smaller and more of a pass rush type player.

 

 

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3 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

Seems to be a truly moronic philosophy.

As I said, I can see that he hopes to develop CBs, though I have seen no indication that his will happen and that seems to be a coach/GM thing, rather than a GM thing.  It is okay to draft guys and hope that Pete Carroll can develop them (Browner, Thurmond, Simon, Sherman) it is another to think just any coaching staff can.  Bowles has the background, but it can't be just a GM thing.  The only success the team has had was with high dollar FA secondary players performing at a high level.

Offensive line? That was Idizk's plan.  It appears it may have worked to some extent.  Winters was apparently worth a second contract.  Aboushi washed out with the Jets, but I think he had some off-field stuff.  He is in the mix to start at G for the Seahawks.  Dozier seems like he may be serviceable.  Shell and Jarvis Harrison are the only offensive linemen that Maccagnan has drafted despite it being a huge problem.  They traded up for Shell which hardly seems like the move you make when you think you can mold mid-round prospects.

The place where I think it is truly idiotic is at OLB.  Pass rush OLBs are among the biggest physical freaks in the NFL.  Long, explosive, that means that they are among the biggest physical freaks on the planet. You simply are not finding these guys in the late rounds, if you do it is a miracle.  A Jordan Jenkins type?  Sure - you can find an edge setter, but what about the other side?  Who is getting after the QB?  As we have seen - nobody.  Since Idzik's first year, the Steelers have drafted Jarvis Jones, Shazier, Bud Dupree and JJ Watt in the first round.  You are not finding 270 lb men that run 4.5s and have 40" verticals in the 5th round.

If there is an elite pass rusher available then I agree that the player should be taken in the first round, but the only time that happened was vic beasley who we passed on for Leo, which is tough to argue against.

However your point about the steelers somewhat re-enforces the strategy.  They took 4 guys....Jones is an enormous bust, Watt looks amazing, Shazier is average and Dupree is always hurt.  Is that a great success ratio of using 4 first round picks on one position?

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3 minutes ago, BCJet said:

If there is an elite pass rusher available then I agree that the player should be taken in the first round, but the only time that happened was vic beasley who we passed on for Leo, which is tough to argue against.

However your point about the steelers somewhat re-enforces the strategy.  They took 4 guys....Jones is an enormous bust, Watt looks amazing, Shazier is average and Dupree is always hurt.  Is that a great success ratio of using 4 first round picks on one position?

What strategy does it reinforce?  Which team is better?  The team that drafts 4 EDGE guys and busts on 2 or the team that drafts 4 ILB/S?  It does not even matter if these guys are busts.  

The Steelers can burn multiple picks on OLB/CB because they have a QB.  Rate the most important positions.  Which one are we set at?  On O I would say QB/LT and then skill positions.  On D I would say pass rusher (be it OLB or DE) and CB.  We literally have 0 guys under contract that are serious choices to play any of these positions going forward.

 

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6 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

What strategy does it reinforce?  Which team is better?  The team that drafts 4 EDGE guys and busts on 2 or the team that drafts 4 ILB/S?  It does not even matter if these guys are busts.  

The Steelers can burn multiple picks on OLB/CB because they have a QB.  Rate the most important positions.  Which one are we set at?  On O I would say QB/LT and then skill positions.  On D I would say pass rusher (be it OLB or DE) and CB.  We literally have 0 guys under contract that are serious choices to play any of these positions going forward.

 

Im only comparing the strategy of Mac continuing to use a mid round pick every draft on an OLB - to try to develop players at the position vs. the Steerlers using a first round pick on the position every year.  How could anyone say the Jets are better then the Steelers, that isnt the argument.

The Jets have used 1 first round pick on an ILB, who is not currently a positive player.  They used two 3rd round picks on OLB, one of whom is good, and one of who isnt.  They have used one 5th round pick on an OLB who is being developed and not contributing.

The steelers have used 1 first round pick on an ILB, who to date is an average ILB (who has never played a full season).  They used 3 first round picks on a complete bust, someone who looks like a pro-bowl level player and dupree who is good but has injury issues.

Have the Steelers had more success at the OLB position, yes.  But compared to draft resources allocated, its not that cut and dried because we have Leo and Jamal Adams, while the steelers have spend a lot of mid round picks on CBs, none of whom stand out either.

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My favorite is that the "It's a new game, who cares if we stop the run - it's a passing league!!! Who pays a nose tackle?!" argument was big for the anti-Snacks crowd.

Now the Jets paid their "pass-rusher" and let go of their defensive anchor. Now we are getting run all over and everybody wants Snacks back. Hindsight is 20/20.

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2 minutes ago, BCJet said:

Im only comparing the strategy of Mac continuing to use a mid round pick every draft on an OLB - to try to develop players at the position vs. the Steerlers using a first round pick on the position every year.  How could anyone say the Jets are better then the Steelers, that isnt the argument.

The Jets have used 1 first round pick on an ILB, who is not currently a positive player.  They used two 3rd round picks on OLB, one of whom is good, and one of who isnt.  They have used one 5th round pick on an OLB who is being developed and not contributing.

The steelers have used 1 first round pick on an ILB, who to date is an average ILB (who has never played a full season).  They used 3 first round picks on a complete bust, someone who looks like a pro-bowl level player and dupree who is good but has injury issues.

Have the Steelers had more success at the OLB position, yes.  But compared to draft resources allocated, its not that cut and dried because we have Leo and Jamal Adams, while the steelers have spend a lot of mid round picks on CBs, none of whom stand out either.

Totally missed my point.  "When I said which team is better?" I wasn't asking Jets or Steelers - I was asking the team loading up on OLB or the team loading up at S?  My point was that a team that picks high value positions can bust 50% or more of the time and still be better off than a team that picks low value positions, like ILB and S. 

I will repeat that I would prefer to take my chances with high value positions than taking "can't miss" prospects at positions like safety, ILB or DT. The Jets are going to pay a ton of money for CB next offseason.  No doubt.

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I loved Snacks, but i was fine with letting him walk.  The problem was having 3 assets for 2 spots with so many other holes.  I think the poor CB play is a larger problem for the D.  The run D was still top 10 last year even without Snacks and Pace.  This year they are replacing Harris too and he was also a big part of that run D. They have been giving up too many long runs.  That is usually indicative of a different problem than poor NT play.  IIRC McCoy had 4 runs over 20 yards and only totaled 110.  The Raiders got 180, but almost 100 was on 2 plays.  Those aren't NT problems IMO. 

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Leaving aside that 4-3 vs 3-4 really isn't even an actual thing anymore, the Jets' struggles on defense are about personnel. The guys we have would be doing the same things in whichever of the marginally distinguishable 'systems' you choose. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether you call the pass rusher we don't have a linebacker or an end. There are no coverage shells that hold up to asking corners who aren't Revis to keep the windows closed for five seconds plus. This stuff is like taking a dump in a box and slapping a guarantee on it. It would be nice if using different words for things afforded an easy avenue to improvement but of effing course it doesn't. The problem we have is a terrible roster and that's as hard to fix as it sounds.

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9 minutes ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Leaving aside that 4-3 vs 3-4 really isn't even an actual thing anymore, the Jets' struggles on defense are about personnel. The guys we have would be doing the same things in whichever of the marginally distinguishable 'systems' you choose. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether you call the pass rusher we don't have a linebacker or an end. There are no coverage shells that hold up to asking corners who aren't Revis to keep the windows closed for five seconds plus. This stuff is like taking a dump in a box and slapping a guarantee on it. It would be nice if using different words for things afforded an easy avenue to improvement but of effing course it doesn't. The problem we have is a terrible roster and that's as hard to fix as it sounds.

What if Bowels just coached better

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1 hour ago, Miss Lonelyhearts said:

Leaving aside that 4-3 vs 3-4 really isn't even an actual thing anymore, the Jets' struggles on defense are about personnel. The guys we have would be doing the same things in whichever of the marginally distinguishable 'systems' you choose. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether you call the pass rusher we don't have a linebacker or an end. There are no coverage shells that hold up to asking corners who aren't Revis to keep the windows closed for five seconds plus. This stuff is like taking a dump in a box and slapping a guarantee on it. It would be nice if using different words for things afforded an easy avenue to improvement but of effing course it doesn't. The problem we have is a terrible roster and that's as hard to fix as it sounds.

But I thought drafting 2 mediocre safeties in rounds 1 and 2 would solve everything?

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