OLine > Franchise QB

[kdels62]

I feel mildly surprised with our o-line and Brandon Shell should continue to be developed not cast aside. The o-line will likely get better as the year goes on but determining it's ceiling is important when Macc or the next GM drafts next year. 

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, Tony MaC said:

What does the center market look like next year? Because if the Jets aren't getting one of those, I don't think we're doing much as far as addressing the O-line there.

The Guard spots seem relatively set, Carpenter is going into his last year and he's been a picture of stability for the franchise. Winters is guaranteed through next year I believe, so there's very little chance a guard is signed to a big deal. And Brandon Shell is actually doing pretty well at right tackle, might be best allocate elsewhere. 

As for the Left, we're screwed. Good left tackles don't get let go by teams. When Mac signed Clady last year and Beachum this year he honestly got the best he could. You have to draft a LT, most likely in round one. 

So if we have to draft a LT in round 1, why didn't we? Especially since we weren't taking a QB in round 1, and really only took Hack in round 2 after Houston spooked Maccagnan by leapfrogging us to take a center.

We were offered a premiere LT prospect we otherwise had no chance at getting, and turned it down so we could draft Darron Lee and Christian Hackenberg. I mean, you couldn't make up the great luck that fell our way. On draft day, consensus #1 pick Laremy Tunsil's mother's boyfriend (or whoever he is) posts a years-old picture of the kid smoking weed through a gas mask (pretty inventive, BTW). Incredibly, he drops to where he's now easily reachable for us, despite our pick being all the way down at #20. 

Maccagnan got consumed with the value of his 2nd rounder (#51) to move up to the #10 slot - which was still good chart value, mind you - rather than considering the value of trading the #51 pick away to get a #1 overall pick talent LT with his #20 overall pick. Tunsil may not yet be what he's expected to become, like Ogden or Thomas who were basically awesome right away, but he's already better than anyone we've had since before Brick's decline (not that Brick was so great as a rookie himself, because he wasn't at all), plus he can run block to boot.

Moving up for Tunsil aside, don't tell me the only tackle worth drafting - in 3 full drafts - was RT Brandon Shell in the 5th round of 2016. It's incredibly rare for a LT to hit FA unless he's inconsistent, has an injury history, or is well into his 30s. Waiting until Maccagnan's 4th draft (at the earliest, if he even selects one next year) is criminal negligence.

That's just the draft.

In terms of FA, Clady and Beachum were most definitely not the best available. Okung $5m for 2016 alone (or 5 yrs/$52m with $0 guaranteed) was a better deal than trading for bust-acquisition Clady at $6m. Also Donald Penn could have easily and ably held the fort while leisurely grooming a successor. Oakland's been happy enough to go that route. He was originally signed for 2 yrs $12m last year on March 18th (well into free agency). To keep him happy, since he was so grossly underpaid, for a 1-yr extension they just bumped his salary for 2017-2018 to $10.5m/yr ($0 guaranteed). Not bad for one of the game's best-performing left tackles, who was available to anybody. 

[Dinamite]

9 hours ago, Pcola said:

I used to think that 1st round OL were the safest position to draft.  But there have been a ton of OL that have busted in the first, even in the top part of the round.  And busting on this pick is just as busting on a QB.  So the risks are comparable while the rewards of hitting in a QB far outweigh hitting on an OL.

Look at the NYGs.  Their GM/HC refuses to acknowledge that Flowers is terrible and keep running him out there.

The recent busts of OL may be due to college systems playing more spread offenses than before.   Just a thought.

[TuscanyTile2]

10 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

Disagree.  An elite OL (granted that is 5 guys and not 1) is at the very least equal to an elite QB:....see Andrew Luck.  

I guess that explains why the Cowboys won the past 2 Super Bowls.  Now if the Patriots could only get a good OL they might really have something.  

[BRONX DUDE]

10 hours ago, Tony MaC said:

I've wanted a franchise LT for so long. They're just as hard to get, if not more so, than QB's. 

I think the Jets will wind up taking one QB or another in round one (just and assumption, we talk but we cant no for certain before a full season of college football) but if they went with a clear as day top left tackle you wont hear one complaint out of me.

Hell, I think that might one of the only positions that warrants a first rounder more than QB does. How many late draft guys are out there watching a QB's blindside?

 

SIGN the best FA  LEFT TACKLE in NFL.  

Easy right?   

Then Draft with the IST PICK IN THE NFL DRAFT the best QB

Easy right?

Then hire THE BEST head coach available.

Easy right?

 

SUPERBOWL in 2-3 years

 

EASY RIGHT!!!!

 

 

[LIJetsFan]

29 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I guess that explains why the Cowboys won the past 2 Super Bowls.  Now if the Patriots could only get a good OL they might really have something.  

Brady is a once in a generation QB supported by the best HC is football.  We played for the conference championship 2x with our OL plus Sanchez for Pete's sake, Sanchez.    

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, LIJetsFan said:

Brady is a once in a generation QB supported by the best HC is football.  We played for the conference championship 2x with our OL plus Sanchez for Pete's sake, Sanchez.    

Absolutely. But it's also absolutely true that it's easier to build an OL than find a great QB, and that a great QB can make an OL look better than it is. We're just so used to bad QBs who won't get a pass off unless they're standing in the pocket without moving. Worse QBs than Brady move up in the pocket or slide out of it, while still focusing on their downfield receivers. 

Not every QB who gets 4 seconds to throw on a given play was afforded as much by great protection from his line.

[Tony MaC]

2 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So if we have to draft a LT in round 1, why didn't we? Especially since we weren't taking a QB in round 1, and really only took Hack in round 2 after Houston spooked Maccagnan by leapfrogging us to take a center.

We were offered a premiere LT prospect we otherwise had no chance at getting, and turned it down so we could draft Darron Lee and Christian Hackenberg. I mean, you couldn't make up the great luck that fell our way. On draft day, consensus #1 pick Laremy Tunsil's mother's boyfriend (or whoever he is) posts a years-old picture of the kid smoking weed through a gas mask (pretty inventive, BTW). Incredibly, he drops to where he's now easily reachable for us, despite our pick being all the way down at #20. 

Maccagnan got consumed with the value of his 2nd rounder (#51) to move up to the #10 slot - which was still good chart value, mind you - rather than considering the value of trading the #51 pick away to get a #1 overall pick talent LT with his #20 overall pick. Tunsil may not yet be what he's expected to become, like Ogden or Thomas who were basically awesome right away, but he's already better than anyone we've had since before Brick's decline (not that Brick was so great as a rookie himself, because he wasn't at all), plus he can run block to boot.

Moving up for Tunsil aside, don't tell me the only tackle worth drafting - in 3 full drafts - was RT Brandon Shell in the 5th round of 2016. It's incredibly rare for a LT to hit FA unless he's inconsistent, has an injury history, or is well into his 30s. Waiting until Maccagnan's 4th draft (at the earliest, if he even selects one next year) is criminal negligence.

That's just the draft.

In terms of FA, Clady and Beachum were most definitely not the best available. Okung $5m for 2016 alone (or 5 yrs/$52m with $0 guaranteed) was a better deal than trading for bust-acquisition Clady at $6m. Also Donald Penn could have easily and ably held the fort while leisurely grooming a successor. Oakland's been happy enough to go that route. He was originally signed for 2 yrs $12m last year on March 18th (well into free agency). To keep him happy, since he was so grossly underpaid, for a 1-yr extension they just bumped his salary for 2017-2018 to $10.5m/yr ($0 guaranteed). Not bad for one of the game's best-performing left tackles, who was available to anybody. 

I don't like working with draft trade hypotheticals. It takes two to tango, we don't have a clue anybody would accept an offer for the team's first and second rounder. We have no way of knowing how highly they valued their eventual picks, assuming they'd take a deal based on the draft chart is a bit of a leap.

Its not that easy, unless the jets were willing to give up future first rounders or a lot more draft picks than they should at this point I don't know how you can say they could have easily gotten one if they wanted.

 

 

[Tony MaC]

1 hour ago, BRONX DUDE said:

SIGN the best FA  LEFT TACKLE in NFL.  

Easy right?   

Then Draft with the IST PICK IN THE NFL DRAFT the best QB

Easy right?

Then hire THE BEST head coach available.

Easy right?

 

SUPERBOWL in 2-3 years

 

EASY RIGHT!!!!

 

 

Sure. easy, until reality hits and one or two or maybe all those things don't go as planned.

Out of all that the QB thing sounds like the most likely thing, and that's assuming the QB class holds up its end of the bargain.

[Pcola]

6 hours ago, Dinamite said:

The recent busts of OL may be due to college systems playing more spread offenses than before.   Just a thought.

You could say the same for QBs.

[sciond]

I have been stating my opinion here that  great teams are built form the inside out.

With that being said we still need a QB and  the OL looks a bit better than I expected but nowhere near good yet.

The next off season is crucial to see this teams direction

[TuscanyTile2]

7 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

Brady is a once in a generation QB supported by the best HC is football.  We played for the conference championship 2x with our OL plus Sanchez for Pete's sake, Sanchez.    

Would you rather have Aaron Rodgers or the Cowboys OL?

[jcass10]

Jets OL really hasn't been bad this year. Shell and Carpenter have been very good.

Franchise QB is number 1,2 and 3 on the list.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[LIJetsFan]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Would you rather have Aaron Rodgers or the Cowboys OL?

With Dallas OL we get to see what we have in Petty and Hack.  Even Bowles wouldn't start McC because that would only lead to 8-8 at best.  With Rogers we still go 8-8.  True at 35yo in Dec he still has some tread on his tires.  Basically I'd say it's a push.  Pick 'em.  Two very interesting scenarios I must say.  Who's in charge around here anyway.  Right now our scenario sux.  

[long suffering jets fan]

The OL was the best unit we had in the raiders game.  I don't think we need to dedicate most of the draft to OL, we have too many other needs, but I wouldn't mind them spending a couple of rounds to shore up the line if there are folks out there that make us better.

[TuscanyTile2]

7 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

With Dallas OL we get to see what we have in Petty and Hack.  Even Bowles wouldn't start McC because that would only lead to 8-8 at best.  With Rogers we still go 8-8.  True at 35yo in Dec he still has some tread on his tires.  Basically I'd say it's a push.  Pick 'em.  Two very interesting scenarios I must say.  Who's in charge around here anyway.  Right now our scenario sux.  

I think you are very much in the minority with this opinion.

[long suffering jets fan]

22 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Would you rather have Aaron Rodgers or the Cowboys OL?

Cowboys OL

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, Tony MaC said:

I don't like working with draft trade hypotheticals. It takes two to tango, we don't have a clue anybody would accept an offer for the team's first and second rounder. We have no way of knowing how highly they valued their eventual picks, assuming they'd take a deal based on the draft chart is a bit of a leap.

Its not that easy, unless the jets were willing to give up future first rounders or a lot more draft picks than they should at this point I don't know how you can say they could have easily gotten one if they wanted.

 

 

Not a hypothetical. Giants offered and he turned it down over the value of a mid-round pick or later; easily recouped by trading down a little. Nobody asks for future first rounders to move up from 20 to 10. Chart-wise it's only 450 points; Maccagnan offered less than that and wouldn't budge. They weren't far apart, which is why they said the trade almost happened. 

But you have to consider the player's value: this was the draft's top overall prospect, at a premiere position of great need, that just doesn't shake loose in FA. Moreover, he wanted this player badly. If the same deal was offered for us to draft the same player, but it was offered by the team picking #1, is it therefore a better deal because we're gaining more chart points? Of course not. Plus his slotted contract is cheaper down at #10 on top of that.

He's simply not a deal maker. It was the 2nd time he balked at a trade that day.

[Green DNA]

19 hours ago, ASH1962 said:

Eli Manning, first ballot HOF QB

 

 

 

 

 

Ummm, No!

[DMan77]

I've been on this bandwagon since... Well... Forever! I think it is such an important piece. I think you build an offense from the inside out.. OL -> QB -> WR -> RB 

The best of the best QBs deal with it and develop just fine behind a bad line... I know that... But I think if you're playing the odds of a QB developing and getting into good habits, your chances increase A LOT if they're behind a solid line that he trusts to keep him safe as he learns and grows.

Everyone's watching the college QBs and WR's and other skill players this year... I'm watching the OL guys! Honestly if we don't get a QB because we somehow win a few games; I won't be super disappointed to get one of these guys as a consolation... It's such a massive part of any rebuild. 

Here's a few to keep an eye on...

Trey Adams, OT, Washington (My personal favorite. LT)

Mike McGlinchey, OT, Notre Dame (Probably the best RT out there. Debate about if he could play LT)

Quenton Nelson, G, Notre Dame (The best guard out there... I'd much prefer a tackle, but this guy is really, really good. 

Connor Williams, OT, Texas 

Orlando Brown, OT, Oklahoma 

Martinas Rankin, OT, Mississippi State 

Billy Price, OG, Ohio State

Mitch Hyatt, OT, Clemson 

[Philc1]

8 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

The OL was the best unit we had in the raiders game.  I don't think we need to dedicate most of the draft to OL, we have too many other needs, but I wouldn't mind them spending a couple of rounds to shore up the line if there are folks out there that make us better.

The only reason McCown didn't get sacked a bunch of times in the Buffalo game was the entire offense was quick checkdown throws in which he held the ball maybe 2 seconds.  Not only that but they couldn't open up any holes in the running game for Forte and Powell.

 

This Offensive Line is bottom 5 in the NFL.

[#27TheDominator]

5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

The only reason McCown didn't get sacked a bunch of times in the Buffalo game was the entire offense was quick checkdown throws in which he held the ball maybe 2 seconds.  Not only that but they couldn't open up any holes in the running game for Forte and Powell.

 

This Offensive Line is bottom 5 in the NFL.

A unit can be best that we have and still be bottom 5 in the NFL.  Have you looked at our roster?

[Philc1]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

A unit can be best that we have and still be bottom 5 in the NFL.  Have you looked at our roster?

Not disagreeing with you.  We have by far the NFL's worst roster but yeah I suppose the OL wins the tallest midget award

[SenorGato]

QB

Pass rusher

CB 

DL/OL

 

[long suffering jets fan]

5 hours ago, Philc1 said:

The only reason McCown didn't get sacked a bunch of times in the Buffalo game was the entire offense was quick checkdown throws in which he held the ball maybe 2 seconds.  Not only that but they couldn't open up any holes in the running game for Forte and Powell.

 

This Offensive Line is bottom 5 in the NFL.

Watch the first TD to Kearse, McCown had all day to throw. 

[sirlancemehlot]

On 9/19/2017 at 12:27 PM, Bleedin Green said:

This.  There have been multiple instances of great o-lines from the Jets, but they could only do so much to compensate for the QBs standing behind them.  They certainly did tend to have more relative success in those years, but the mediocre talent at the NFL's most premium position could not be overcome in the end (see: Sanchez, Pennington).

But Sanchez and that Oline got to two AFCG. We haven't sniffed that success since the line disintegrated. You can have success with an excellent line and poor QB play, but not the other way around. 

[Bleedin Green]

54 minutes ago, sirlancemehlot said:

But Sanchez and that Oline got to two AFCG. We haven't sniffed that success since the line disintegrated. You can have success with an excellent line and poor QB play, but not the other way around. 

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, as I specifically noted the Jets had more success when their OLs were at their best.  Yes, the OL can help the team have a bit of success, but in that case, there are still limitations on how far that can go.  There were multiple Jets' teams that ultimately failed with top defenses and running games, under both Sanchez and Pennington, primarily because they were mediocre QBs.  In any years where the OL was still good, but not great, it all went to hell.

You can have some success with a great OL and mediocre QB, but you can have far more success with a mediocre OL and great QB.  If it's an all-time awful OL allowing constant jailbreaks, that's a different story, but as long as they can hold their own, a top level QB will always be the difference-maker.

[TMAC]

On 9/19/2017 at 12:17 PM, nico002 said:

Look I'm all for drafting a QB with this top 3 pick we are likely getting, but after that all of our resources need to go into building a dominant OLine.

Look at Giants, Packers, colts, Saints, and Seahawks. All teams with franchise QBs and/or elite weapons that literally can't move the ball because their OLines are total garbage. 

The leauge has moved past the stage of 5000 yard passers and crazy offenses. Defenses are getting to QBs and OLine is once again the most premium unit. 

Abolutely

[sirlancemehlot]

4 hours ago, Bleedin Green said:

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, as I specifically noted the Jets had more success when their OLs were at their best.  Yes, the OL can help the team have a bit of success, but in that case, there are still limitations on how far that can go.  There were multiple Jets' teams that ultimately failed with top defenses and running games, under both Sanchez and Pennington, primarily because they were mediocre QBs.  In any years where the OL was still good, but not great, it all went to hell.

You can have some success with a great OL and mediocre QB, but you can have far more success with a mediocre OL and great QB.  If it's an all-time awful OL allowing constant jailbreaks, that's a different story, but as long as they can hold their own, a top level QB will always be the difference-maker.

I agree. The problem becomes: it can take any given team decades to find an elite QB as their are only 4 or five active in the league at any given time. So it's a matter of attainability versus pure value. I'd argue a top line is far more attainable, and makes us competitive. It's also an absolute necessity should you find the four leaf clover of a franchise QB.  Prescott is a solid pro with that line, as was Sanchez in NY.  While luck is elite but unsuccessful due to being a punching bag. 

[Philc1]

21 hours ago, long suffering jets fan said:

Watch the first TD to Kearse, McCown had all day to throw. 

Oakland's defense isn't good.

[Philc1]

6 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

But Sanchez and that Oline got to two AFCG. We haven't sniffed that success since the line disintegrated. You can have success with an excellent line and poor QB play, but not the other way around. 

Oakland and Dallas have the NFL's two best offensive lines.  They are also both Super Bowl contenders. What a coincidence.

[long suffering jets fan]

9 hours ago, Philc1 said:

Oakland and Dallas have the NFL's two best offensive lines.  They are also both Super Bowl contenders. What a coincidence.

And their QBs are universally celebrated, also not a coincidence. But put them behind a crappy OL that can't run block, or pass protect and see how they do.

[Bleedin Green]

18 hours ago, sirlancemehlot said:

I agree. The problem becomes: it can take any given team decades to find an elite QB as their are only 4 or five active in the league at any given time. So it's a matter of attainability versus pure value. I'd argue a top line is far more attainable, and makes us competitive. It's also an absolute necessity should you find the four leaf clover of a franchise QB.  Prescott is a solid pro with that line, as was Sanchez in NY.  While luck is elite but unsuccessful due to being a punching bag. 

Definitely agree that the OL is more attainable, which is why the Jets have had multiple great ones since the last time they had any (consistently) good QB play.  But I guess it's for that reason that the franchise QB has that much greater value, in my opinion.  Those who have top QBs with garbage on their OL are just mind-numbingly stupid.  For all the criticism the Jets' current OL got over the course of the offseason, they are nowhere near the bottom of the league and I'm sure there are many elite QBs who would be more than happy with it.  Meanwhile, Hackenberg was too stupid to even call the protections right and they were the ones taking the blame for that in the preseason.  Sure, it would have gone better if they had Dallas' OL, but there's only so much a line can do.