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6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Couldn't avoid?

:shock:

He could have traded Mo outright instead of holding out for compensation no one was going to offer up.

He could have used Mo as part of a trade-up for a QB in 2016. 

He could have extended Snacks in 2015 (and it certainly wasn't going to cost $9m/year back then).

He could have extended Winters in 2016 after he looked so much more improved in filling in for Colon. He had insanity-level leverage over Winters. Had he picked up his first choice in FA (Osemele) Winters would have been relegated back to being a backup. And both Winters and his agent knew it.

He legitimately sucks at this.

That is a relief - I thought we would be agreeing all the time.. :-)

 

Mo's contract was a mess. Unlike what everyone says, trading a guy on his last year's contract (especially after an injury) is extremely hard to do. That is why you have to give credit to Idzik (and they may be the only place where you do) with the Revis trade. Not being able to trade him - it would have been very difficult - not sure I blame him for that.

Not sure how much Snacks would have settled for, but he wasn't going cheap since he knew his value. Also, maybe we only pay 7m a year, but we would have had to do that for his last year (I don't remember what he was making then) but we where also a bit tight on cap. Not saying it couldn't be done, but again, I don't blame him for not being able to sign a guy whose first comment on his last year of his contract is that he wants to test out FA. Again, it was doable but pretty heard.

Winters, eh; I was hoping for better, maybe the Jets were too. Again, not worked up about his new contract; not sure I would have been happy if he signed him for less a year earlier - I am still not sold on him.

Now, if he has the same problem with people he signs (or were 1st years when he took over), now that would be telling. It would be telling whether or not his picks were worth re-signing and how much he signs him for.

So, I am not saying the guy should get an A; just saying he shouldn't be too harshly judged for some of it. Maybe it is my experience walking into a bad situation which gives me sympathy for him - either way, we should have a lot more information this offseason (if he comes back).

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52 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Now that we're in the supposedly-requisite 3rd season to tell anything, grade the 2015 draft. Nobody expects your strawman nonsense of going 7 for 7 (and ironically, you're the one making the "extreme" argument in doing so).

Fans do rightly expect a GM, whose only prior qualification was being an NFL scout, to be better than 1 for 6. In particular, where the only one he hit was the easiest no-brainer to not bust in the whole draft (it's not like he went against conventional wisdom and it paid off; it was the safe, pussy pick given he was handed a team already being set for years on its DL). Question is, if Williams is off the board, does he even hit that unacceptable 1 out of 6? 

He is not average. He's demonstrably below average. 

Ya, that's fine. I just disagree.

I think he's gotten better and I liked the last couple drafts on-top of his last few moves this offseason. I think he's going to be fine, and I'd rather stick with the stability to find out instead of throwing someone new in there and starting all over again with a new plan.

 

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5 minutes ago, Pac said:

So who's the GM that hits on every decision?

No GM hits on every decision. It’s just the way that Macc has gone about building, uh, or rebuilding, this team flies in the face of the success that other teams have found. What position that actually matters is better today than it was when he took over? I’m not asking him to hit on every move. I’m just asking that it at least seems like he’s starting to get it after three years. That is not the case thus far. 

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26 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

Ya, that's fine. I just disagree.

I think he's gotten better and I liked the last couple drafts on-top of his last few moves this offseason. I think he's going to be fine, and I'd rather stick with the stability to find out instead of throwing someone new in there and starting all over again with a new plan.

 

This is fine, but we are sticking with the stability of the same guy and we are still starting over with a new plan.

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46 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

That is a relief - I thought we would be agreeing all the time.. :-)

 

Mo's contract was a mess. Unlike what everyone says, trading a guy on his last year's contract (especially after an injury) is extremely hard to do. That is why you have to give credit to Idzik (and they may be the only place where you do) with the Revis trade. Not being able to trade him - it would have been very difficult - not sure I blame him for that.

Not sure how much Snacks would have settled for, but he wasn't going cheap since he knew his value. Also, maybe we only pay 7m a year, but we would have had to do that for his last year (I don't remember what he was making then) but we where also a bit tight on cap. Not saying it couldn't be done, but again, I don't blame him for not being able to sign a guy whose first comment on his last year of his contract is that he wants to test out FA. Again, it was doable but pretty heard.

Winters, eh; I was hoping for better, maybe the Jets were too. Again, not worked up about his new contract; not sure I would have been happy if he signed him for less a year earlier - I am still not sold on him.

Now, if he has the same problem with people he signs (or were 1st years when he took over), now that would be telling. It would be telling whether or not his picks were worth re-signing and how much he signs him for.

So, I am not saying the guy should get an A; just saying he shouldn't be too harshly judged for some of it. Maybe it is my experience walking into a bad situation which gives me sympathy for him - either way, we should have a lot more information this offseason (if he comes back).

There was interest, including the year before he got injured. Just not the amount he wanted. That doesn't translate to anything close to having no choice but to extend him at $17m/year.

Your #s are wrong re Snacks. An extension begins the next year. Even if we'd erased the 2015 RFA tag year, it wouldn't have been a $7m cap hit in year 1 unless we desired it to be so. He didn't say anything about wanting to test FA until he'd earned his own FA status. He didn't say that prior to entering the 2015 season, when there was still risk of injury. Once that risk was gone, of course he wanted to test FA. That's precisely my point. We gave up our leverage by waiting.

Not saying he should get an A? How would "A" even enter the discussion? The question is whether he deserves as high as a "C" at best, or if it's lower in the D to F range.

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6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Your #s are wrong re Snacks. An extension begins the next year. Even if we'd erased the 2015 RFA tag year, it wouldn't have been a $7m cap hit in year 1 unless we desired it to be so. He didn't say anything about wanting to test FA until he'd earned his own FA status. He didn't say that prior to entering the 2015 season, when there was still risk of injury. Once that risk was gone, of course he wanted to test FA. That's precisely my point. We gave up our leverage by waiting.

I really don't remember the timing of his statement so I believe you; that not withstanding, when someone signs with a year left to go on his contract, it almost ALWAYS includes a signing bonus, plus an upgrade on his last year's deal.

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Not saying he should get an A? How would "A" even enter the discussion? The question is whether he deserves as high as a "C" at best, or if it's lower in the D to F range.

I wasn't saying he should get an A - I was saying that I am not making excuses for him or implying he should get an A; my point is that when you look exclusively at the 'mess' he was handed, it is hard to come up with a fair grade. IF mac comes back, and then IF you don't like who he signs, doesn't sign or how much he signs for it, than I think it is MORE fair to judge him.

So, let's put this on hold until next year; no worries - I am sure you or others on this board will hate, criticize, and otherwise prove he is nothing other than the devil incarnate at that point :-)

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2 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Well my question is despite having a plan do these guys actually have a plan?

The kearse, kerley safety whose name i can't recall were all last minute things that do not smack of having a plan.  They will make the team better short term but the concern is still taking reps from younger players.  Nest year at camp we'll be saying, hmmm i wonder if Adarious Stewart and Hansen can play or not?

How do you plan on specific players, being cut or a team willing to trade with yoi?

They planned on trading Richardson and McDougle and they most likely planned on making a trade for a position of need.  They did that.

They probably planned on a couple of players similar to Kerley, not necessarily Kerley himself, and they did that.  

So it may seem spontaneous by specific player, it certainly seems they had a plan they implemented.

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43 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

Ya, that's fine. I just disagree.

I think he's gotten better and I liked the last couple drafts on-top of his last few moves this offseason. I think he's going to be fine, and I'd rather stick with the stability to find out instead of throwing someone new in there and starting all over again with a new plan.

 

It was made quite clear - when 2015's class, other than Leo, didn't look so great off the bat - that we can't judge more recent drafts yet. So this sounds like heads I win tails you lose logic.

Also, as was brought up earlier by @Beerfish, if a big part of his "plan" was a last-minute Kearse/Sheldon/draft pick swap, then he doesn't have a plan in effect. The reason you don't have a lot of criticism this year is he didn't do anything except make cuts (and overpay for a guard he had crazy leverage over, and draft 2 safeties at the top of a rebuild).

As to the last 2 years, just last year he tagged & extended Mo (bad), re-signed UFA Fitz (bad), lost UFA Snacks (bad), signed UFA J.Jenkins (bad), signed UFA Forte (bad), drafted Lee instead of moving up for a QB or even a LT (bad), drafted Hackenberg (bad), waited until freaking April to demand a pay cut to Ferguson (bad), which led to trading a draft pick for Clady (bad), and more. But hey, we got Robbie Anderson as an UDFA so that balances it all out!

Stability is only good if you've got someone clearly doing a really good job. If he's performed poorly, which he has on balance, stability is a negative.

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10 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

I really don't remember the timing of his statement so I believe you; that not withstanding, when someone signs with a year left to go on his contract, it almost ALWAYS includes a signing bonus, plus an upgrade on his last year's deal.

I wasn't saying he should get an A - I was saying that I am not making excuses for him or implying he should get an A; my point is that when you look exclusively at the 'mess' he was handed, it is hard to come up with a fair grade. IF mac comes back, and then IF you don't like who he signs, doesn't sign or how much he signs for it, than I think it is MORE fair to judge him.

So, let's put this on hold until next year; no worries - I am sure you or others on this board will hate, criticize, and otherwise prove he is nothing other than the devil incarnate at that point :-)

Well you brought up the idea of his desire to test FA, not me. My recollection (from 2015) is he wanted to stay with the team that gave him a shot as an UDFA. Not to mention, if he could have been had in that $6-7m range (I think $7m is the highest he could have gotten with a year left on his deal, with a year less salary inflation). And it's not a pure net $6-7m anyway. Next you have to subtract the $3.5m/year paid to McLendon to (inadequately) take his place. So you're talking about a $3m/year savings, which would have been more than offset by his $3m+ better play, and the lack of necessity to retain Mo at that stupid, unwarranted amount.

Next, that is not almost always how a new contract goes. The opposite seems more common. The time a final-year contract situation is usually torn up is if it's a franchise tag, and that's because the tag amount, plus the extension's signing bonus, is a stupid amount to start with cap-wise. So typically, you leave the existing (low) final year in place and the extension is tacked onto that starting with the following year(s). Watt's extension is a great example of this. When a SB is given, the amortized amount is added to the cap hit of that current final season, but that's really it.

The grade of "A" should never enter the conversation, even as an "I'm not saying he should get an A" contrast. His ceiling for assessment, at this point, is 2 full letter grades below that.

Your last line is just personally attacking those with whom you disagree instead of arguing on the merits, to paint his advocates as models of sanity and balance, and those critical as being wildly irrational. Truth is, in terms of merit, the "pro-Maccagnan" camp is the far more irrational on balance; tossing around nonsensical "I think he's done a good job so far" without examples as to why, or showing that most - or even half - his moves pan out. Those who think he's in over his head repeatedly point to various examples of individual mishaps rather than personal feelings. So it's uncalled for, if you want to have a rational discussion. You ask why, and I give you examples; I don't just stick my fingers in my ears and baselessly type HE SUCKS HE SUCKS HE SUCKS. Not in the way his supporters seem to reflexively lay all blame on the HC while shielding the GM. 

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1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

That is a relief - I thought we would be agreeing all the time.. :-)

 

Mo's contract was a mess. Unlike what everyone says, trading a guy on his last year's contract (especially after an injury) is extremely hard to do. That is why you have to give credit to Idzik (and they may be the only place where you do) with the Revis trade. Not being able to trade him - it would have been very difficult - not sure I blame him for that.

Not sure how much Snacks would have settled for, but he wasn't going cheap since he knew his value. Also, maybe we only pay 7m a year, but we would have had to do that for his last year (I don't remember what he was making then) but we where also a bit tight on cap. Not saying it couldn't be done, but again, I don't blame him for not being able to sign a guy whose first comment on his last year of his contract is that he wants to test out FA. Again, it was doable but pretty heard.

Winters, eh; I was hoping for better, maybe the Jets were too. Again, not worked up about his new contract; not sure I would have been happy if he signed him for less a year earlier - I am still not sold on him.

Now, if he has the same problem with people he signs (or were 1st years when he took over), now that would be telling. It would be telling whether or not his picks were worth re-signing and how much he signs him for.

So, I am not saying the guy should get an A; just saying he shouldn't be too harshly judged for some of it. Maybe it is my experience walking into a bad situation which gives me sympathy for him - either way, we should have a lot more information this offseason (if he comes back).

I didn't see Sperm address this, so I will step up.  You don't have Mo's timeline right.  When Maccagnan took over the Jets had Mo on his 5th year option - $7M.  By that point, they could have easily traded him and knew it was coming to a head. He didn't break his leg until week 17.  They franchised him for 2016 and gave him a big deal anyway.  

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56 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It was made quite clear - when 2015's class, other than Leo, didn't look so great off the bat - that we can't judge more recent drafts yet. So this sounds like heads I win tails you lose logic.

Also, as was brought up earlier by @Beerfish, if a big part of his "plan" was a last-minute Kearse/Sheldon/draft pick swap, then he doesn't have a plan in effect. The reason you don't have a lot of criticism this year is he didn't do anything except make cuts (and overpay for a guard he had crazy leverage over, and draft 2 safeties at the top of a rebuild).

As to the last 2 years, just last year he tagged & extended Mo (bad), re-signed UFA Fitz (bad), lost UFA Snacks (bad), signed UFA J.Jenkins (bad), signed UFA Forte (bad), drafted Lee instead of moving up for a QB or even a LT (bad), drafted Hackenberg (bad), waited until freaking April to demand a pay cut to Ferguson (bad), which led to trading a draft pick for Clady (bad), and more. But hey, we got Robbie Anderson as an UDFA so that balances it all out!

Stability is only good if you've got someone clearly doing a really good job. If he's performed poorly, which he has on balance, stability is a negative.

Not really trying to 'win' anything. I don't come here to try and change people's minds.

I think he's gotten better at what he does. Not excellent, but better. I think he dropped the ball on trying to build a winning team from the shell we had left those last couple of years. But I also think he has the ability to work on this rebuild. I'd like to see what else he can do. I think keeping the same guy and the same generals and front office is the way to go. I think it's more benefical for a franchise to do that instead of moving on every few years and hopping somebody else hits on a QB. That's all! 

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2 hours ago, bostonmajet said:

That is a relief - I thought we would be agreeing all the time.. :-)

Winters, eh; I was hoping for better, maybe the Jets were too. Again, not worked up about his new contract; not sure I would have been happy if he signed him for less a year earlier - I am still not sold on him.

Was making another post, so I figured I'd throw this in too:

We were all hoping for better. The question is, since when is "hoping for better" worth a top 10 RG contract?  I understand the contract isn't crazy out of line, but I don't pay that to a guy "I am still not sold on"

1 hour ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I find it amazing that Macc is redeemed after a win against Jay Cutler. The Jags are going to rip us a new a$$hole and he'll be an a$$hole again.

Who is #036 and why is he part a$$hole?  What did Rich Miano ever do to you?

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3 minutes ago, DMan77 said:

Not really trying to 'win' anything. I don't come here to try and change people's minds.

I think he's gotten better at what he does. Not excellent, but better. I think he dropped the ball on trying to build a winning team from the shell we had left those last couple of years. But I also think he has the ability to work on this rebuild. I'd like to see what else he can do. I think keeping the same guy and the same generals and front office is the way to go. I think it's more benefical for a franchise to do that instead of moving on every few years and hopping somebody else hits on a QB. That's all! 

I see zero evidence he's getting better at anything.

Moving on > Sticking with bad

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3 hours ago, dbatesman said:

Remember when we gave up 66 points in the first two games

Really, can we hit the brakes just a bit until we are, say, 5-2? Absolutely they played great yesterday in all areas, let's see if this is an aberration or the norm before we anoint them exec's of the year.

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4 hours ago, Beerfish said:

Well my question is despite having a plan do these guys actually have a plan?

The kearse, kerley safety whose name i can't recall were all last minute things that do not smack of having a plan.  They will make the team better short term but the concern is still taking reps from younger players.  Nest year at camp we'll be saying, hmmm i wonder if Adarious Stewart and Hansen can play or not?

Bowles doesnt give a rat turd about the future. He will ride veterans until the day was fired. Even if we wind up with the #1 pick, he will lobby to go with another veteran retread QB. We are seeing a repeat of Bowles first year but this one will be far more disastrous to our future.  

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Now that we're in the supposedly-requisite 3rd season to tell anything, grade the 2015 draft. Nobody expects your strawman nonsense of going 7 for 7 (and ironically, you're the one making the "extreme" argument in doing so).

Fans do rightly expect a GM, whose only prior qualification was being an NFL scout, to be better than 1 for 6. In particular, where the only one he hit was the easiest no-brainer to not bust in the whole draft (it's not like he went against conventional wisdom and it paid off; it was the safe, pussy pick given he was handed a team already being set for years on its DL). Question is, if Williams is off the board, does he even hit that unacceptable 1 out of 6? 

He is not average. He's demonstrably below average. 

in all fairness, the injuries to smith are on the freakish side and you can almost say the same thing for mauldin. petty may yet turn into a decent back up or even starter and simon is on the practice suqad.  nothing to write home about but clearly better than the previous two idzik drafts. 

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so now costello is playing the build them up to knockem down game that maneesh plays.  way too early to put mac in canton for his drafting prowess.  the grading of his 2015 draft will be coming due pretty soon and thus far he's not doing too well.  smith and mauldin are injured.  no telling how good smith could've been.  his injuries are freakish.  mauldin had an off year last year and this would've been his comeback year.  petty? jury is still out.  simon ? practice squad. harrison?  is he even playing anywhere? it could be he was relying too much on his newly signed free agents to find players the jets needed for those positions.

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10 minutes ago, rangerous said:

in all fairness, the injuries to smith are on the freakish side and you can almost say the same thing for mauldin. petty may yet turn into a decent back up or even starter and simon is on the practice suqad.  nothing to write home about but clearly better than the previous two idzik drafts. 

2016 was much better than 2015 aside from Leo. We got our hands on a good edge setter in Jenkins.

2017 might be even better. Adams/Maye/Stewart etc.

inprovement..all you can ask for. Hopefully 2018 is even better as well.

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4 hours ago, AFJF said:

I said it a few weeks ago...if the brilliant John Elway was throwing tons of money at  Osweiller and drafting Paxton Lynch in the first round because he didn't know Trevor Simeon was any good, how realistic is it expect anyone to get it right?  You show me an NFL GM, and I'll show you a guy who bombed multiple picks.

 

2 hours ago, Pac said:

So who's the GM that hits on every decision?

 

1 hour ago, AFJF said:

John Idzik, right?

Coming from guys who think John Idzik's birth was punishment for the sins of man, fluffing Maccagnan for being better than Idzik is a lollercoaster

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Bit of cold water; it's one game vs. a flat and not very good Dolphins team. Seems like some people think they're now on the road to 7 or 8 wins.I don't see that.  Still think the offense is gonna have some issues, Morton's solid job notwithstanding. 3 games of film is going to give opposing DCs more stuff to look at and try to stop. 

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13 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Bit of cold water; it's one game vs. a flat and not very good Dolphins team. Seems like some people think they're now on the road to 7 or 8 wins.I don't see that.  Still think the offense is gonna have some issues, Morton's solid job notwithstanding. 3 games of film is going to give opposing DCs more stuff to look at and try to stop. 

Right. It's really a play it by ear type thing with young cores as far  as success goes. But to the point of the OP.. Mac has continually put together a decent young core through every and any outlet. FA, trades, waiver wire, draft. ..it's up to the young core to further prove Mac correct and adjust to whatever teams decide to attack us with game by game. If they are successful they'll receive team stability and a small piece of that 80 million come off-season. I'm sure our GM wants any and all of these young guys back that showed production. It's the essence of a rebuild lol. 

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25 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Over/under on how many times Pac grinned to himself, in gleeful self-satisfaction over coming up with - what he surely thinks is - a brilliant thread title.

it took 10 seconds but I did think it was pretty cool.. 

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