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Cimini on rookie safeties


AFJF

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23 hours ago, peebag said:

Hindsight is 20/20.  Nobody expected Watson to play at this level.

Yeah, it's not like he threw for 850 yards, ran for 120, threw 7td vs 1 int. and 1 rushing td against a defense that had seven draft picks in the first 112 picks of the draft (plus Minkah Fitzpatrick and DaRon Payne) in the two biggest games of anyone's life. You can see how he totally flew under the radar.

Hold on. Radar? Radar? Is that a gun or something? Why do I think this? Any help?

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1 minute ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Yeah, it's not like he threw for 850 yards, ran for 120, threw 7td vs 1 int. and 1 rushing td against a defense that had seven draft picks in the first 112 picks of the draft (plus Minkah Fitzpatrick and DaRon Payne) in the two biggest games of anyone's life. You can see how he totally flew under the radar.

Hold on. Radar? Radar? Is that a gun or something? Why do I think this? Any help?

Oh that's why NFL draftniks did not have him going in the top ten? 

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1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm not impressed by Bowles, but that is largely a fan myth. Rookies - particularly in the first half of their rookie seasons - are typically buried behind better overall players and/or players who bring more to the table than a casual fan sees. And even when there wasn't, there's been no reluctance to starting their first round picks. None. 

Go list the rookies they've been "reluctant" to start, and ask yourself which ones deserved to start from day one (over the players who did start). And no, benching raw rookies Hackenberg and Petty don't count.

The list is short, and it's certainly not filled with many slam dunk examples. If anything, for some early round players, I've seen some force-feeding of guys who clearly weren't yet ready for the playing time given (D.Smith, D.Lee, Jenkins).

The worst "crimes" you could come up with in the first 2 years are rookies Juston Burris and Brandon Shell not starting or seeing significant playing time until the last quarter of the season, or McGuire this year (and as much as I'd like to see more of him over Forte, it's convenient for fans to only look at his handoffs and ignore plays where they need him to be a receiver or a blocker as well as less tangible benefits his experience brings). So, meh to that list.

well yes but those players can usually be substituted during the game without any real drop off.  qb's are a bit different.  situational substitution for qb's has never really caught on. and except for petty being somewhat injury prone, what can be the excuse(s) for not starting him if only to see him perform under game conditions?

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The ironic part is that when Mac was hired he continuously preached the concept of "draft a QB every year until you find one"  Well, the one year we have a franchise QB staring us in the face that we don't need to trade down for we pass.  I'm not bashing Macc cause a lot of teams passed on Watson but man, we cannot catch a break with the QB position.

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10 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Besides every tight end scoring on him at will this season Adams has looked amazing

Every tight end scoring at will?  Please, list all of the tight ends who have scored against him, not including the Njoku TD when he grabbed Adams by the shoulder pads and pushed him away with both arms to create separation before the catch.  Actually, go ahead and include that one in the plethora of TD's for the sake of objectivity.

This should be a looong list because they've face a lot of tight ends.

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1 minute ago, AFJF said:

Every tight end scoring at will?  Please, list all of the tight ends who have scored against him, not including the Njoku TD when he grabbed Adams by the shoulder pads and pushed him away with both arms to create separation before the catch.

This should be a looong list because they've face a lot of tight ends.

Ok, Last 2 weeks Gronk caught 2 td passes and yesterday Fasano, who is a blocking TE, scores on Adams 

 

 

Oh yeah I guess the Njoku td 3 weeks ago doesn’t count in your world

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Just now, Philc1 said:

Last 2 weeks Gronk caught 2 td passes and yesterday Fasano, who is ablocking TE, scores on Adams 

So they've played seven games and every team has 2-3 tight ends.  The best TE ever to play the game scored against him along with Anthony Fasano.  This, to me, does not read like a list of every tight end they've played "scoring at will"

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7 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Ok, Last 2 weeks Gronk caught 2 td passes and yesterday Fasano, who is a blocking TE, scores on Adams 

 

 

Oh yeah I guess the Njoku td 3 weeks ago doesn’t count in your world

Nope, I updated my reply to say go ahead and count the Njoku TD.

Seven games, 17-21 TE's, 4 TD's, two coming from the best TE ever to play the game.

Clearly TE's are scoring "at will" in your world.

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10 minutes ago, AFJF said:

So they've played seven games and every team has 2-3 tight ends.  The best TE ever to play the game scored against him along with Anthony Fasano.  This, to me, does not read like a list of every tight end they've played "scoring at will"

Tony Gonzalez also scored against Jamal Adams?

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On 10/24/2017 at 11:48 AM, rangerous said:

well yes but those players can usually be substituted during the game without any real drop off.  qb's are a bit different.  situational substitution for qb's has never really caught on. and except for petty being somewhat injury prone, what can be the excuse(s) for not starting him if only to see him perform under game conditions?

The excuses are not acceptable to many/most fans, but here it is:

They've seen Petty. They've seen him in practices last year and the year before. They saw him in games last year. They saw him in practices/scrimmages this year. They saw him in preseason games this year. He is not the Mystery Box / blank slate for the coaching staff that he is for fans.

I also want to see him out there. But if he is fall-on-face bad (not just uber-choking on a handful of individual plays, but sucking far worse than McCown on the other 90% of snaps), it has ripple effects on the rest of the team. Now personally, I'm not moved by that if they're also keeping the 1st & 2nd year WRs on the bench, but it's easy for me to say.

My job performance isn't on the line, and if McCown causes the team to win 2-3 more games this year it has no effect on my employment status. Not so with Bowles (nor Maccagnan, for that matter). These "useless" extra wins, to finish 6-10 instead of 3-13, are not useless to them. It keeps them employed instead of fired.

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2 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

Tony Gonzalez also scored against Jamal Adams?

3 TE's scoring against Adams in 7 games is "scoring at will"...I'd change the subject too if I were you.

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Just now, AFJF said:

3 TE's scoring against Adams in 7 games is "scoring at will"...I'd change the subject too if I were you.

When you take safety at ) overall you don’t anticipate him being burned for a touchdown by a blocking tight end

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5 minutes ago, Philc1 said:

When you take safety at ) overall you don’t anticipate him being burned for a touchdown by a blocking tight end

256 snaps played vs. the pass

4 TD's allowed, two vs. first ballot HOF in sixth professional game

"Scoring at will"

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3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

The excuses are not acceptable to many/most fans, but here it is:

They've seen Petty. They've seen him in practices last year and the year before. They saw him in games last year. They saw him in practices/scrimmages this year. They saw him in preseason games this year. He is not the Mystery Box / blank slate for the coaching staff that he is for fans.

I also want to see him out there. But if he is fall-on-face bad (not just uber-choking on a handful of individual plays, but sucking far worse than McCown on the other 90% of snaps), it has ripple effects on the rest of the team. Now personally, I'm not moved by that if they're also keeping the 1st & 2nd year WRs on the bench, but it's easy for me to say.

But then, my job performance isn't on the line, and if McCown causes the team to win 2-3 more games this year it has no effect on my employment status. Not so with Bowles (nor Maccagnan, for that matter). These "useless" extra wins, to finish 6-10 instead of 3-13, are not useless to them. It keeps them employed instead of fired.

i get it as most fans do but i think if were woody or his brother i'd like to know exactly what they have in petty and hack.  some guys just don't practice well but in the game you go "humph, never saw that happening".  and some guys aren't very assertive on the practice field but when in the game they are real alphas.  i think both petty and hack deserve that test before being thrown aside for another draftee or free agent qb.  and they also owe to themselves if they truly want to be nfl qb's.

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4 hours ago, T0mShane said:

What’s more fun is that it appears teams are actively targeting their TE when Adams is covering them. 

Good point.  Pats never really use Gronk unless he's playing Adams.

Fasano?  Dude was unstoppable with the most prolific 3 reception/25 yard performance I've ever seen.

Mercedes Lewis...got tired of watching his end zone celebrations against Adams too.

Njoku's grabbing Adams had shoving him away was totes on Adams, nothing to do with refs blowing a call.

Teams are just letting their TE's score "at will" against Adams.  It hurts.

 

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32 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Good point.  Pats never really use Gronk unless he's playing Adams.

Fasano?  Dude was unstoppable with the most prolific 3 reception/25 yard performance I've ever seen.

Mercedes Lewis...got tired of watching his end zone celebrations against Adams too.

Njoku's grabbing Adams had shoving him away was totes on Adams, nothing to do with refs blowing a call.

Teams are just letting their TE's score "at will" against Adams.  It hurts.

 

What’s good about drafting a strong safety at six overall is that you get to tie up a bunch of bandwidth qualifying all the touchdowns he gives up in seven games. 

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6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

What’s good about drafting a strong safety at six overall is that you get to tie up a bunch of bandwidth qualifying all the touchdowns he gives up in seven games. 

And I get to do it at will.

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4 hours ago, rangerous said:

i get it as most fans do but i think if were woody or his brother i'd like to know exactly what they have in petty and hack.  some guys just don't practice well but in the game you go "humph, never saw that happening".  and some guys aren't very assertive on the practice field but when in the game they are real alphas.  i think both petty and hack deserve that test before being thrown aside for another draftee or free agent qb.  and they also owe to themselves if they truly want to be nfl qb's.

It's always a possibility, but the incremental is rarely dramatic. I mean, you can have a guy who looks merely decent in practice, who can't match up with the "other" guy's obvious physical prowess when they're all wearing red jerseys, but who just has that 6th sense with the lights on.

I'm not saying he is, what if say Petty doesn't look good at all in practice (as in, he's better than Hackenberg, but just because it's warmer than an icy 20 degrees outside, that doesn't therefore make 40 degrees beach weather). 

Plenty of guys look like they've got it all in practice - or in college, the combine, private workouts, etc. - but are NFL nothings on the field.

However I can't think of any QBs who are obvious, legitimate NFL starters that look more or less like crap in practice. Can you name any player you've even heard rumored to be like that? I can't. Maybe Tebow that one half-season in Denver, but everyone knows was one unrepeatable circumstance upon another, and it's no accident he's out of the league.

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6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

However I can't think of any QBs who are obvious, legitimate NFL starters that look more or less like crap in practice. Can you name any player you've even heard rumored to be like that? I can't. Maybe Tebow that one half-season in Denver, but everyone knows was one unrepeatable circumstance upon another, and it's no accident he's out of the league.

Supposedly Brett Favre filled this bill, that is off hearsay. It was one of the reasons that he clashed with Jerry Glanville. It is also possible that he changed once he was traded.

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6 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

It's always a possibility, but the incremental is rarely dramatic. I mean, you can have a guy who looks merely decent in practice, who can't match up with the "other" guy's obvious physical prowess when they're all wearing red jerseys, but who just has that 6th sense with the lights on.

I'm not saying he is, what if say Petty doesn't look good at all in practice (as in, he's better than Hackenberg, but just because it's warmer than an icy 20 degrees outside, that doesn't therefore make 40 degrees beach weather). 

Plenty of guys look like they've got it all in practice - or in college, the combine, private workouts, etc. - but are NFL nothings on the field.

However I can't think of any QBs who are obvious, legitimate NFL starters that look more or less like crap in practice. Can you name any player you've even heard rumored to be like that? I can't. Maybe Tebow that one half-season in Denver, but everyone knows was one unrepeatable circumstance upon another, and it's no accident he's out of the league.

you're right about that.  most do show what they can do in practice.  but you know kony ealy was basically launched from the patsies because of the way he practised and it looks like he's pretty good on game day.  and there are a number of guys throughout nfl history who showed up on game day.  well who knows about petty or hack.  i just think they need to get them into a real game.  petty was already in six so we have a better idea of what he brings.

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6 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said:

Supposedly Brett Favre filled this bill, that is off hearsay. It was one of the reasons that he clashed with Jerry Glanville. It is also possible that he changed once he was traded.

I thought his thing was more behavior/maturity-based; that he was going out getting wasted every night or something and just generally acting like a douche (I know, hard to believe), and that’s why Glanville wanted him gone. Cleaned up his act (to at least an acceptable degree) in Green Bay. 

Even still, it’s not as though - in this state - he looked like garbage in practice but when Jerry tossed him onto the field he performed. He didn’t get onto the field at all for Atlanta. (OK looking it up now, he dropped back to pass 5 times, got sacked once, and was 0 for 4 on the rest). I didn’t hear rumors of him looking like trash in practice, but when Holmgren puts him on the field to relieve Majkowski regardless, and he’s a pro bowler.

Not saying I’d disbelieve it, but my understanding is his issue in Atlanta was more behavior/attitude, not that he was trying his bestest and he looked terrible in practice doing that bestest.

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15 minutes ago, rangerous said:

you're right about that.  most do show what they can do in practice.  but you know kony ealy was basically launched from the patsies because of the way he practised and it looks like he's pretty good on game day.  and there are a number of guys throughout nfl history who showed up on game day.  well who knows about petty or hack.  i just think they need to get them into a real game.  petty was already in six so we have a better idea of what he brings.

OK, Ealy. But with Belichick who knows why he really cuts guys; he’s always been fickle that way and at the time, every move is attributed to his geniusness. 

It’s possible that he wasn’t picking up BB’s defense, but the Jets’ is simpler. He was already a mostly-starter in Carolina before he went to NE. 

I disagree that players - QBs in particular - look more or less hopeless in practice and then get in real games and the coaches are like, “Whoa, where’d this ocme from? This kid couldn’t throw 10 yards on target in practice for 3 years.”

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12 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

OK, Ealy. But with Belichick who knows why he really cuts guys; he’s always been fickle that way and at the time, every move is attributed to his geniusness. 

It’s possible that he wasn’t picking up BB’s defense, but the Jets’ is simpler. He was already a mostly-starter in Carolina before he went to NE. 

I disagree that players - QBs in particular - look more or less hopeless in practice and then get in real games and the coaches are like, “Whoa, where’d this ocme from? This kid couldn’t throw 10 yards on target in practice for 3 years.”

BB has the luxury of Brady to fall back on to make up for any mistakes he makes. 

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18 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I thought his thing was more behavior/maturity-based; that he was going out getting wasted every night or something and just generally acting like a douche (I know, hard to believe), and that’s why Glanville wanted him gone. Cleaned up his act (to at least an acceptable degree) in Green Bay. 

Even still, it’s not as though - in this state - he looked like garbage in practice but when Jerry tossed him onto the field he performed. He didn’t get onto the field at all for Atlanta. (OK looking it up now, he dropped back to pass 5 times, got sacked once, and was 0 for 4 on the rest). I didn’t hear rumors of him looking like trash in practice, but when Holmgren puts him on the field to relieve Majkowski regardless, and he’s a pro bowler.

Not saying I’d disbelieve it, but my understanding is his issue in Atlanta was more behavior/attitude, not that he was trying his bestest and he looked terrible in practice doing that bestest.

Sometimes getting fired (traded/cut in NFL) is the best thing that can happen to a young man.  That's my take away on the Favre story line in Atlanta.  

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