Maynardrules#13 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 New York Jets Overrated: Running back Curtis Martin has been an all-time Jets great. But it's over. Martin is no longer an elite back and it showed last season when he rushed for a career-low 735 yards. Underrated: Defensive end Shaun Ellis doesn't get a lot of attention, but he simply goes out and makes plays. He should be comfortable playing end in the new 3-4 scheme. http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9542704 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Cavka Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Prisco forget Marko. Marko very underrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Untouchable Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'll believe Martin's done when I see it. He's been doubted for the past 3-4 years and still continues to prove people wrong. Did Prisco even take into account that Curtis was running behind the NFL's worst O-line last season with a bum knee no less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Troll Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 How is Shaun Ellis under-rated? He gets a lot more credit than he deserves. Aside from one big season, he's been completely useless without Abraham to take heat off of him. He's decent against the run, but his rep as a sackmaster is bull****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillerPaul Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I'll believe Martin's done when I see it. He's been doubted for the past 3-4 years and still continues to prove people wrong. Did Prisco even take into account that Curtis was running behind the NFL's worst O-line last season with a bum knee no less? Good point. Alot of media folks are quick to presume the older RB's are done due to the beating they take over the years. One thing no one can judge though is heart, and Curtis has that covered ten-fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I'll believe Martin's done when I see it. He's been doubted for the past 3-4 years and still continues to prove people wrong. Did Prisco even take into account that Curtis was running behind the NFL's worst O-line last season with a bum knee no less? What ever you think of Prisco, he's right about this. Martin might be successful as part of a tandem in the backfield. But his days of 350+ carries are over. The worst thing(which is saying something!) that happened to this franchise the last few years was his contract extension and then his rushing title. Otherwise they keep Jordan and send Martin out. Also, if you have am old back, injuries are a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 I'll believe Martin's done when I see it. He's been doubted for the past 3-4 years and still continues to prove people wrong. Did Prisco even take into account that Curtis was running behind the NFL's worst O-line last season with a bum knee no less? Don't forget the quarterbacks incapable of completing a pass more than four yards downfield. I don't think that helped him either. Don't think Ellis is underrated. Abraham was MUCH better than Ellis. Ellis is a capable starter, but he's not likely to make the pro-bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Ellis has played just decent at defensive end - we all might have fooled by his really good year a couple of years ago-of course the biggest fool might have been the front office giving him a big contract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 One thing no one can judge though is heart, and Curtis has that covered ten-fold. Are you kidding me? Heart? You sound like a Jet fan talking about PennyBoy's unbelievable "intangibles". Give me a RB with speed, quickness and skills over one that now only has "heart", any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 What ever you think of Prisco, he's right about this. Martin might be successful as part of a tandem in the backfield. But his days of 350+ carries are over. The worst thing(which is saying something!) that happened to this franchise the last few years was his contract extension and then his rushing title. Otherwise they keep Jordan and send Martin out. Also, if you have am old back, injuries are a given. Damn, Savage is back under a new username. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KINGDIRK Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 C-Mart aint overrated, he's just old. He's a Hall of Famer near the end of his career. Ellis is OVERrated. For the money he got, he waaaay overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Don't forget the quarterbacks incapable of completing a pass more than four yards downfield. I don't think that helped him either. Don't think Ellis is underrated. Abraham was MUCH better than Ellis. Ellis is a capable starter, but he's not likely to make the pro-bowl. John run-right-at-him-Abraham sucks. A bunch of sacks when the game was already in-hand (for us or the other team). But at the end of the year it looks like he had a better season than he did b/c of it & sacks are THE stat that gets you into the pro-bowl along the DL (particularly if you're a 4-3 DE). Enough with these excuses for geriatric Curtis Martin. If only everyone else around him performed at a near pro-bowl level, and if he was 100% healthy, then Martin would've also. Blah blah blah. We're rebuilding & a 33 yo HB has no place on a rebuilding team beyond giving a breather to the young talent who we may keep beyond this year. The stat-compiler has been overrated his whole career, doing very ordinary things on the field with the football in-hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 John run-right-at-him-Abraham sucks. A bunch of sacks when the game was already in-hand (for us or the other team). But at the end of the year it looks like he had a better season than he did b/c of it & sacks are THE stat that gets you into the pro-bowl along the DL (particularly if you're a 4-3 DE). Baloney. Granted sacks maybe an overrated statistic, but Abraham was a game changer. There aren't that many guys that can do that, especially on defense. When he was right the defense was scoring more points than the offense last year. How many force fumbles did he have? So he isn't perfect and you can run at him, big deal. They said that about Gastineau and he was awesome too. Just because he isn't the perfect player doesn't mean he isn't great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Baloney. Granted sacks maybe an overrated statistic, but Abraham was a game changer. There aren't that many guys that can do that, especially on defense. When he was right the defense was scoring more points than the offense last year. How many force fumbles did he have? So he isn't perfect and you can run at him, big deal. They said that about Gastineau and he was awesome too. Just because he isn't the perfect player doesn't mean he isn't great. With him at DE, opposing offenses averaged like 4.5 ypc against the Jets. Now, were most of them running over Ellis & Ferguson, or were they just laughing as they ran right to Abe the game-changer for a first down? If you can't stop the run, your defense sucks & can't get off the field. End of discussion. I also disagree that he was a game changer. What he was with the Jets was a POTENTIAL game changer. If he was, in fact, a game-changer, then complete the following sentence: "If not for John Abraham's timely clutch play, with the other team about to score in a close game, we would've lost against __________." And be sure to say what that play was, of course. Not examples of a "good game" - but examples of game-changing, where we were on our way to a loss but for the timely clutch play of John Abraham. He's been on the Jets for 6 years, over which time the Jets won 50 games including the playoffs. So as a game-changer you should be able to find SEVERAL of examples to complete that sentence. I can find an example like this for an overweight Ty Law - Mr. Pass Interference - in a single 4-win season. Surely you can find MANY for the game-changing, 3-time pro-bowler over 50 Jet wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 If you can't stop the run, your defense sucks & can't get off the field. End of discussion. Come on Spermy, you know that's not true. 95% of Jet fans claim the defense sucked so bad because the offense was so terrible. At least get your facts straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faba Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Come on Spermy, you know that's not true. 95% of Jet fans claim the defense sucked so bad because the offense was so terrible. At least get your facts straight. I am one that does not buy into that- the Jets defense many times let teams control the ball and the clock and was not able to stop opponents especially on third downs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudcat21 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I am one that does not buy into that- the Jets defense many times let teams control the ball and the clock and was not able to stop opponents especially on third downs I agree. Many times last year the opposing team went 80 yards on the opening drive. Hard to balme the offense for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 I am one that does not buy into that- the Jets defense many times let teams control the ball and the clock and was not able to stop opponents especially on third downs faba, that's why I said 95%. You get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
124 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 New York Jets Overrated: Running back Curtis Martin has been an all-time Jets great. But it's over. Martin is no longer an elite back and it showed last season when he rushed for a career-low 735 yards. Underrated: Defensive end Shaun Ellis doesn't get a lot of attention, but he simply goes out and makes plays. He should be comfortable playing end in the new 3-4 scheme. http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9542704 Yeah it's over when you play in 12 games, 10 of them where supposedly you could've already been on IR and playing behind a horrible OLine with no passing game. Give me a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Are you kidding me? Heart? You sound like a Jet fan talking about PennyBoy's unbelievable "intangibles". Give me a RB with speed, quickness and skills over one that now only has "heart", any day of the week. You have one in Corey Dillon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor99 Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 "If not for John Abraham's timely clutch play, with the other team about to score in a close game, we would've lost against __________." The Bucs in 2000. He caused the fumble with the sack that allowed us to get back in that game. We would have lost that game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Bucs in 2000. A game 6 friggn' years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Bucs in 2000. He caused the fumble with the sack that allowed us to get back in that game. We would have lost that game. Absolutely. I forgot about that. Point Thor. However, as the patsie troll poster here notes: A game 6 friggn' years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 The Bucs in 2000. He caused the fumble with the sack that allowed us to get back in that game. We would have lost that game. And the in buffalo and in miami game 2 years ago. Abraham was a game changer for us, lets not pretend he didnt single handedly win us any games, because he did, many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 And the in buffalo and in miami game 2 years ago. Abraham was a game changer for us, lets not pretend he didnt single handedly win us any games, because he did, many times. many? That's ridiculous. Abraham having good games and being a game-changer are not one and the same. The game-changer in Miami was Ferguson causing the fumble on Miami's last drive - if they scored we wouldn't have had any time left to mount a drive of our own. All Abe did was fall on the football that was at his feet. Fergie made the play, sacking Fiedler & causing the fumble with under 2 minutes left. The other real "game-changer" in that one was the OTHER Abraham. With Miami driving, DONNIE Abraham intercepted the ball in Jets territory & ran like 60-70 yds for a TD. THAT was the game changer. I don't think that Buffalo game he was THE game-changer that caused us to win. Not at all. Right after one of his penalties gave Buffalo a first down, the next play was a TD pass to Lee Evans. Abe still had a very good game overall, but none of his 3 sacks put the game away in our favor. The first two came in the first half & if it put the game away then the 2nd half would've been irrelevant, which it wasn't. The last one did come on the Bills' last (and unsuccessful) drive, but they got a first down on the very next play anyway & stopped the clock with time for a few more plays, the last one being Terrell Buckley's interception on the Jets' 6 yd line. So no matter what arguments you could come up with for his having good games in these outings, he was not THE game-changer & he certainly did not single handedly win EITHER of those games for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 many? That's ridiculous. Abraham having good games and being a game-changer are not one and the same. So no matter what arguments you could come up with for his having good games in these outings, he was not THE game-changer & he certainly did not single handedly win EITHER of those games for us. Nobody "single handedly" wins an NFL game. Especially not on the defensive end. I said he was a game changer, as in the other team has to game plan for him. He changes the game. Ellis does not. He had a pretty good game against Atlanta in the Monday night game last year. Not sure how many sacks he had, but it was more than one and his pressures caused at least one INT that kept us in the game that Vinnie and Kendall gave away. He also had some big sacks down the stretch in games we were up (obviously not too many times last year) to finalize the win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Abraham was a game changer for us, lets not pretend he didnt single handedly win us any games, because he did, many times. is the post I was responding to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 is the post I was responding to That sucks. I'm the one that said he was a "game changer." Does this mean I have to read all the posts before I comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 If you're going to take issue with a response of mine, then maybe you should see what it is I'm responding to. But no, you don't have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Abraham was a game changer for us, lets not pretend he didnt single handedly win us any games, because he did, many times. Barton, can you cite 3 or 4 examples? If not, you need to put down the crack pipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Barton, can you cite 3 or 4 examples? If not, you need to put down the crack pipe. He came up big against the bengals opening day, the bills and phins that year too. He was the biggest game changing player on our defense, always forcing fumbles and getting sacks - these are facts. What do you want him to do on a 4-12 team? Throw touchdown passes? He doesnt play on offense, so he cannot single handledly win many games by himself. But in many games he was the difference between us winning and us losing, more often winning, he was the main reason we won the game because we won with defense in 2004. Teams had to game plan against him which tells you what kind of player he is, you cannot say he is not a game changer that is just ridiculous. He always forced fumbles and got some big sacks too. Did he give up some on runs? Yea he did, but so does Dwight Freeney even moreso as do most of the best pass rushers in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 He came up big against the bengals opening day, the bills and phins that year too. He was the biggest game changing player on our defense, always forcing fumbles and getting sacks - these are facts. What do you want him to do on a 4-12 team? Throw touchdown passes? He doesnt play on offense, so he cannot single handledly win many games by himself. But in many games he was the difference between us winning and us losing, more often winning, he was the main reason we won the game because we won with defense in 2004. Teams had to game plan against him which tells you what kind of player he is, you cannot say he is not a game changer that is just ridiculous. He always forced fumbles and got some big sacks too. Did he give up some on runs? Yea he did, but so does Dwight Freeney even moreso as do most of the best pass rushers in the NFL. Having a good game is completely different than "single-handedly winning games" as you stated in your orignial post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 Having a good game is completely different than "single-handedly winning games" as you stated in your orignial post. Well when you're the difference between winning and losing when your team wins the game, its about as single handedly as it comes in the NFL. Nobody single handedly wins anything in the NFL, but you need playmakers and gamechangers and Abraham was that for us. When our pass rush doesnt have a pulse next year I dont want to hear the Abraham haters complain about it. I dont even like the guy and I am glad he is gone, but please, this is like the same people that diss Ty Law, saying he was fat, well he still had 10 INTs and played incredible corner for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 but please, this is like the same people that diss Ty Law, saying he was fat, well he still had 10 INTs and played incredible corner for us. Come on Barton, you know that the majority of Jet fans said Ty Law sucked last year with all those missed tackles and penalties. Not to mention his 10 picks were thrown right at him (any CB could have done that) and his Pro Bowl selection was a fluke and only based on his reputation. The Jets will easily replace his production this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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