John Clayton on Jet QB SITUATION for 2008

[Barton]

i disagree

we know he's not amazing or special or Tom Brady-like

A truly great player would have overcome the obstacles against him, would have covered the flaws of the OL and made plays despite the pressure (which is actually not as bad as people make it out to be, he's holding the ball too long)

will clemens be good or even very good? Maybe

but i doubt he will be 'great'

Wait, so he's not the next great all-time HOF Quarterback? Gee, really?

BTW, put 2001 Brady on this team and we go nowhere.

[bitonti]

Wait, so he's not the next great all-time HOF Quarterback? Gee, really?

BTW, put 2001 Brady on this team and we go nowhere.

maybe not... but with 2007 Brady we'd be a Super Bowl contender.

I guess what I am trying to quantify here is the "it" factor

Brady (and others like Elway, Manning etc) didn't excel in their first seasons but there was something there- an it factor that allowed you to at least believe they were possible franchise players.

I don't think Clemens has the it factor. I hope I am wrong. But remember comparing him to Brady is not unreasonable, considering the Jets have to play him twice a year until he retires.

[Irish Jet]

maybe not... but with 2007 Brady we'd be a Super Bowl contender.

I guess what I am trying to quantify here is the "it" factor

Brady (and others like Elway, Manning etc) didn't excel in their first seasons but there was something there- an it factor that allowed you to at least believe they were possible franchise players.

I don't think Clemens has the it factor. I hope I am wrong. But remember comparing him to Brady is not unreasonable, considering the Jets have to play him twice a year until he retires.

The 'IT' factor can go **** itself. If anyone is actually going to expalin WTF it actually is then it would be great cause as of now it is the most useless thing I've ever seen when it comes to judging QB's!!!!

[#27TheDominator]

Wait, so he's not the next great all-time HOF Quarterback? Gee, really?

BTW, put 2001 Brady on this team and we go nowhere.

Put 2001 Brady on the Jets and they'd probably be a top 5 offense. Would you take Troy Brown, David Patten, Jermaine Wiggins and Antoine Smith over Coles, Cotchery, Baker and Jones? Brady did a hell of lot more with less.

Bit is right, Clemens has already shown he's not a miracle man. He may prove to be a capable starter but I'm not sure that Mangini can afford to bet all his chips on Clemens. The leash can't be that long.

[SoFlaJets]

Put 2001 Brady on the Jets and they'd probably be a top 5 offense. Would you take Troy Brown, David Patten, Jermaine Wiggins and Antoine Smith over Coles, Cotchery, Baker and Jones? Brady did a hell of lot more with less.

Bit is right, Clemens has already shown he's not a miracle man. He may prove to be a capable starter but I'm not sure that Mangini can afford to bet all his chips on Clemens. The leash can't be that long.

I wouldn't doubt that we hear Mangini declare that next year's QB starting position open for competition-it seemed to work pretty well in '06 Oh yea I do NOT expect Chad Pennington to even be in the running next summer-he'll be gone by then. I'd like to see Brett Ratliff get some snaps after this week's game

[Irish Jet]

I wouldn't doubt that we hear Mangini declare that next year's QB starting position open for competition-it seemed to work pretty well in '06 Oh yea I do NOT expect Chad Pennington to even be in the running next summer-he'll be gone by then. I'd like to see Brett Ratliff get some snaps after this week's game

If Chad stays through the off-season I honestly wouldn't be suprised to see him start in 2008. I doubt he'll stay but TBH that scenario really wouldn't surprise me.

You may think that's me being a Chad lover or whatever but TBH when actually I would be against it, I just think it's the kind of thing that could happen. Mangini would have an 'open competition' between the QB's which IMO Chad could win.

Call me crazy but I think it's a possibility.

[#27TheDominator]

I wouldn't doubt that we hear Mangini declare that next year's QB starting position open for competition-it seemed to work pretty well in '06 Oh yea I do NOT expect Chad Pennington to even be in the running next summer-he'll be gone by then. I'd like to see Brett Ratliff get some snaps after this week's game

I don't think that you will see Ratliff getting any snaps before preseason '08. He's on the practice squad, not inactive. They'd have to cut somebody to move him up (unless they are short somebody again-which isn't likely considering they are worried about wr with the starters dinged). Also, I think Clemens needs as many snaps has he can get. It would look bad to give Ratliff some snaps, even in garbage time.

[SoFlaJets]

I don't think that you will see Ratliff getting any snaps before preseason '08. He's on the practice squad, not inactive. They'd have to cut somebody to move him up (unless they are short somebody again-which isn't likely considering they are worried about wr with the starters dinged). Also, I think Clemens needs as many snaps has he can get. It would look bad to give Ratliff some snaps, even in garbage time.

yea I guess you're right

[Barton]

Put 2001 Brady on the Jets and they'd probably be a top 5 offense. Would you take Troy Brown, David Patten, Jermaine Wiggins and Antoine Smith over Coles, Cotchery, Baker and Jones? Brady did a hell of lot more with less.

Bit is right, Clemens has already shown he's not a miracle man. He may prove to be a capable starter but I'm not sure that Mangini can afford to bet all his chips on Clemens. The leash can't be that long.

Thats a bit of a stretch, to say the least. 2001 tom brady was a JAG.

[SoFlaJets]

Thats a bit of a stretch, to say the least. 2001 tom brady was a JAG.

...who won a Super Bowl...come on Barton...hate him as we do and all...

[#27TheDominator]

Thats a bit of a stretch, to say the least. 2001 tom brady was a JAG.

Maybe top 5 is a stretch. The '01 Pats were 6th in points scored, but 19th in yardage. I misread their 6th points against as offensive yardage, but to say the least? With the players I mentioned above the '01 Pats were 6th in scoring. If Brady was a JAG with 64% completions, 2,800 yards in 15 games, 18tds and 12picks, what is Clemens? Check Clemens stats and get back to me.

[jack48]

Dude that is insane and you can't be serious. Kellen will have an extended look. He has done some good things, some bad. Regardless it is a terrible offense either way. They fix the line and life will be better all around.

But Kellen's problem is not that he didn't play in an extra 2 games.

why hasn't anyone bothered to mention that John (ET) Clayton is an idiot?

[Irish Jet]

why hasn't anyone bothered to mention that John (ET) Clayton is an idiot?

He is indeed, but he isn't exactly wrong in this scenario. There has nothing he has written there which isn't true to be fair.

[gang_green03]

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading posts that say Clemens has to be an all-time QB in his first year. You can't even tell if he'll be that good or not based off such a small sample size. Clemens probably won't be a HOF QB. You can be a great QB without being a legendary QB. So we should just keep cycling through QB's until we find a Top 5 historical one? You can compete for a championship without having an all-time QB. Maybe every other team in the league should just forfeit and let the Patriots, Colts, and Packers fight for the Superbowl because those are the only teams I see with legendary QBs. Forget the fact that you actually need a good team to win the superbowl. Someone please explain to me how this is a rational arguement.

[RSJ]

Clemens needs more time in all fairness. But after a bad season like it has been Tangini would be smart to keep CP around.

[pjam76]

KC does deserve next season to see what he can or can't do.. The problem in the NFL is that a lot of young QB's get half a season and then never really get another chance. Plenty of backup QB's wind up being backups for quite a few years and then resurface on another team and shine...

Rex Grossman sucks, but the reality is he's started one full season and the Bears went to a super bowl. This year he sucked, was benched, the other QB's didn't do any better, he came back in, sucked, and now is benched again. I don't think he's good, but the guy really only had one full season as an NFL Starting QB and he's supposed to be out.

Same thing can be said about a lot of QB's... Nobody waits around for years anymore. Carson Palmer sat out his first year, started his second and has looked good since he started. He still has struggles and the Bengals stink, but Palmer still looks decent enough.

The problem with KC at this point is the Jets offense stinks , they don't score and he still has 9 interceptions.

People bring up the fact that Peyton Manning struggled in his first season as QB and the Colts went like 3-13... While that's true he still threw 26 TD's. He broke a lot of rookie QB records that year and while he threw like 28 interceptions or something, there were plenty of signs that he could be a great QB...

Troy Aikman didn't win a game his first season going 0-11, was injured and missed a few games, and the cowboys went like 1-15... But there were games where he showed signs of becoming great and then in season two he improved drastically.

At this point, we see KC having a few nice drives now and again, but he hasn't really had any great games. Great QB's still have great games now and again on bad teams. They might not win and throw untimely interceptions, but so far KC hasn't really fared any better than Chad.

I'd like to see a 300+ yard passing game with a few passing TD's and a ton of "I'll show you" confidence to show some signs that the kid could be great. I wouldn't care if the Jets lost and he threw a couple of picks.. Just some sign that there could be games where he's got that greatness in him. So while he deserves another season to show us what he can be, I haven't really seen greatness out of him yet.

[pjam76]

Wow, I can't believe I'm reading posts that say Clemens has to be an all-time QB in his first year. You can't even tell if he'll be that good or not based off such a small sample size. Clemens probably won't be a HOF QB. You can be a great QB without being a legendary QB. So we should just keep cycling through QB's until we find a Top 5 historical one? You can compete for a championship without having an all-time QB. Maybe every other team in the league should just forfeit and let the Patriots, Colts, and Packers fight for the Superbowl because those are the only teams I see with legendary QBs. Forget the fact that you actually need a good team to win the superbowl. Someone please explain to me how this is a rational arguement.

You do realize that over the past 20 or so years QB's like Joe Montana, Steve Young, Troy Aikman, Jim Kelly, Bret Favre, John Elway, Tom Brady, and Petyon Manning all won super bowls or lost super bowls... You also realize QB's like Drew Bledsoe, Donovan Mcnabb, and Kurt Warner also won or lost super bowls. All pro bowl QB's in their time.

The reality is teams like the Ravens and Bucs had beyond great defenses and the Steelers have been a winning team under Cower for years because of a great defense and one heck of a running game. Then again, the Ravens had at least one HOF on defense and they had a HOF TE. The Bucs had quite a few pro bowl players on defense, if not a couple of HOF players. The Steelers had a HOF RB, a lot of pro bowl defensive players, and a young QB who never seemed to lose his first 2 seasons in the NFL.

The Giants were a HOF defensive team with a HOF head coach. THe Redskins were the Hogs with a damn good defense, a top offensive line and had a HOF head coach.

So unless the Jets build one of the best defenses in the NFL and have a top running game with pro bowlers and HOFers, the reality is most teams who make it to the super bowl or win it, have either a HOF QB or quite a few HOF or all pro defensive players.

The Jets have no all pros or HOF players yet. and their hc sure looks like no HOF.

[#27TheDominator]

KC does deserve next season to see what he can or can't do.. The problem in the NFL is that a lot of young QB's get half a season and then never really get another chance. Plenty of backup QB's wind up being backups for quite a few years and then resurface on another team and shine...

Rex Grossman sucks, but the reality is he's started one full season and the Bears went to a super bowl. This year he sucked, was benched, the other QB's didn't do any better, he came back in, sucked, and now is benched again. I don't think he's good, but the guy really only had one full season as an NFL Starting QB and he's supposed to be out.

Same thing can be said about a lot of QB's... Nobody waits around for years anymore. Carson Palmer sat out his first year, started his second and has looked good since he started. He still has struggles and the Bengals stink, but Palmer still looks decent enough.

The problem with KC at this point is the Jets offense stinks , they don't score and he still has 9 interceptions.

People bring up the fact that Peyton Manning struggled in his first season as QB and the Colts went like 3-13... While that's true he still threw 26 TD's. He broke a lot of rookie QB records that year and while he threw like 28 interceptions or something, there were plenty of signs that he could be a great QB...

Troy Aikman didn't win a game his first season going 0-11, was injured and missed a few games, and the cowboys went like 1-15... But there were games where he showed signs of becoming great and then in season two he improved drastically.

At this point, we see KC having a few nice drives now and again, but he hasn't really had any great games. Great QB's still have great games now and again on bad teams. They might not win and throw untimely interceptions, but so far KC hasn't really fared any better than Chad.

I'd like to see a 300+ yard passing game with a few passing TD's and a ton of "I'll show you" confidence to show some signs that the kid could be great. I wouldn't care if the Jets lost and he threw a couple of picks.. Just some sign that there could be games where he's got that greatness in him. So while he deserves another season to show us what he can be, I haven't really seen greatness out of him yet.

Good points. The real problem is that what is fair or best for player development is not necessarily best for the team. In the last 10-15 years, the only player who won a super bowl with the team he was drafted by that isn't going to the HOF is Big Ben and you could even say the jury is out on him. The rest were surefire HOF or FA pickups or trades (Dilfer/Banks/Johnson), whatever (Warner).

Teams simply don't have the time to wait. IF you have Brady, Elway, Peyton you wait for them to develop. Hell, even some HOF qbs didn't win it with the team that drafted them (Favre). If the goal is to win a super bowl, I'm not sure that Clemens gets another season without at least some true competition in camp.

[Thai Jet]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3151445

Kellen Clemens hasn't distinguished himself in his first opportunity to run with the starting job. At the moment, Clemens' competitor for the 2008 starting job is unknown. But the Jets face a tough decision on Chad Pennington; he is on the books for a $4.8 million salary and an escalator clause could take his salary to $6 million in 2008. Unhappy about his benching, Pennington probably will ask to be traded or released. That would leave the Jets in the market for a veteran to compete against Clemens. It could cost well over $3 million to bring in Grossman, Culpeppper or another veteran free agent, so the Jets have to decide whether they can do better than Pennington before they release him. Pennington lacks Clemens' arm strength, but he can move the chains and help a team get to the playoffs. If he sticks around, he could beat out Clemens.

He appears to be right and if this is the case I think we are in pretty bad shape. What do you think?

Culpepper ? , Grossman? :puke:I'd rather not even watch the Jets at all next year.

[Thai Jet]

I'm talking like, we should have started him from week 3 and on, if not last season. So it would have been like an extra 6-12 games. Maybe we beat the Browns and Redskins if Clemens had more previous game experience. It probably means nothing a year from now, but I think the more games Clemens could have played in late 2006 and 2007, the better idea of what we'd have with him at this point. Right now, its just cloudy.

Our little playoff season in 2006 means nothing because we no longer have the same starting QB from that year. We should have spit the bit and started Clemens the last 4 games of 2006 and then all of 2007 because then we would know now if we needed to draft a QB or not in the 2008 draft. Instead we have no idea if Clemens is our QB of the future or not. I am optimistic, but I dont see anything absolutely concrete yet. We should have an answer by now but instead we will have to wait and see on Clemens until this time next year. Basically, we wasted a year here.

[LWC611]

Culpepper ? , Grossman? :puke:I'd rather not even watch the Jets at all next year.

Culpepper would get killed whalie he had some good years I belive his best is way behind him. Grossman, well he is Grossman he is very inconsistent. But if these are the options lets hope we can keep Kellen healty.

[D-MONEY87]

Based on the free agent QB market right now, maybe it's better to just stick with Clemens as starter and pay Pennington to stay. Pennington is probably better than Grossman or Culpepper and would be really helpful if Clemens were to go down with an injury or something.