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Effing Pats


sirlancemehlot

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12 picks this year, including Chung, Brace, Tate---six pix in the first three rounds and to top it off, they wrangled two extra second rounders for the 2010 draft.

If you can't appreciate this, then you're missing the big picture. Our myopathy and turnstyle coaching situations have killed any ability to plan for long-term success. We buy plug and play guys at a premium and mortgage our future every single season. "but the Pats don't draft well!" You say. They have the picks to draft well, and the system to infuse their team with young talent. We don't have that luxury. We have FA's that outpriced thier original teams. And three draftees. And no WR. No pass rusher. No TE. No Elam, Ratliff, Coleman.

This team is poorly run from the top. Rather than shop for substance and value, they pull the shopping cart right into the checkout and buy all the gum, candy and magazines they can find.

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12 picks this year, including Chung, Brace, Tate---six pix in the first three rounds and to top it off, they wrangled two extra second rounders for the 2010 draft.

If you can't appreciate this, then you're missing the big picture. Our myopathy and turnstyle coaching situations have killed any ability to plan for long-term success. We buy plug and play guys at a premium and mortgage our future every single season. "but the Pats don't draft well!" You say. They have the picks to draft well, and the system to infuse their team with young talent. We don't have that luxury. We have FA's that outpriced thier original teams. And three draftees. And no WR. No pass rusher. No TE. No Elam, Ratliff, Coleman.

This team is poorly run from the top. Rather than shop for substance and value, they pull the shopping cart right into the checkout and buy all the gum, candy and magazines they can find.

yeah they should just hand the pats the lombardi now cause they won already...........:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

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There is no way they can keep all of those guys and if they do they have to make some major cuts. Belly did this because he doesn't have pioli anymore to cherry pick for him so he's just throwing it all up there and seeing what sticks.

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12 picks this year, including Chung, Brace, Tate---six pix in the first three rounds and to top it off, they wrangled two extra second rounders for the 2010 draft.

If you can't appreciate this, then you're missing the big picture. Our myopathy and turnstyle coaching situations have killed any ability to plan for long-term success. We buy plug and play guys at a premium and mortgage our future every single season. "but the Pats don't draft well!" You say. They have the picks to draft well, and the system to infuse their team with young talent. We don't have that luxury. We have FA's that outpriced thier original teams. And three draftees. And no WR. No pass rusher. No TE. No Elam, Ratliff, Coleman.

This team is poorly run from the top. Rather than shop for substance and value, they pull the shopping cart right into the checkout and buy all the gum, candy and magazines they can find.

Absolutely, the Jets have been spinning their wheels of late but if Sanchez is the real deal then the Jets will have done wonderfully for themselves and will in future have the luxury of stockpiling picks to accumulate young talent. But for this team at this time the need for the QB was greater than the need to acquire young depth.

Having said that, its uncanny how the Pats manage to get meaningful draft picks in these deals every year.

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yeah they should just hand the pats the lombardi now cause they won already...........:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Pats could lose every game this season and it wouldn't change the fact that they play the FO game shrewdly. Last I checked, they've been a pretty good team the last few years, no? What's our consistency been like.

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12 picks this year, including Chung, Brace, Tate---six pix in the first three rounds and to top it off, they wrangled two extra second rounders for the 2010 draft.

If you can't appreciate this, then you're missing the big picture. Our myopathy and turnstyle coaching situations have killed any ability to plan for long-term success. We buy plug and play guys at a premium and mortgage our future every single season. "but the Pats don't draft well!" You say. They have the picks to draft well, and the system to infuse their team with young talent. We don't have that luxury. We have FA's that outpriced thier original teams. And three draftees. And no WR. No pass rusher. No TE. No Elam, Ratliff, Coleman.

This team is poorly run from the top. Rather than shop for substance and value, they pull the shopping cart right into the checkout and buy all the gum, candy and magazines they can find.

2006: 10 picks

Round Pick Player Pos School

1 21(21) Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota

2 4(36) Chad Jackson WR Florida

3 22(86) David Thomas TE Texas

4 9(106) Garret Mills TE Tulsa

4 21(118) Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

5 3(136) Ryan O'Callaghan T California

6 22(191) Jeremy Mincey DE Florida

6 36(205) Dan Stevenson OG Notre Dame

6 37(206) Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska

7 21(229) Willie Andrews S Baylor

...and the only good one is the friggin' kicker.

Enough of this "Patriots are drafting geniuses" garbage. They trade down for so many picks because they suck at it. First round linemen they do a great job. Clearly they've been fortunate - to say the least - in finding QB's in the 6th-7th round. Other than that, they don't draft very well no matter how many people yell "brilliant" after every one of their stupid future-bust picks.

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Pats could lose every game this season and it wouldn't change the fact that they play the FO game shrewdly. Last I checked, they've been a pretty good team the last few years, no? What's our consistency been like.

no they do....but just the fact that you mentioned "no elam, ratliff, or coleman" as an actual issue shoudl invalidate your post. :D

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I was having this conversation with a friend before. Yes, teams like the Pats and the Steelers always come out of the draft looking good.

You know why that is? Because they were good before then, and could make solid value picks.

You realize Mangini tried 'value' with us, and it netted us guys like Eric Smith and Anthony Schliegal.

It's easy to be a good team who needs a solid DB, and wait for one at the end of round 1. Same with an offensive guard, tight end, etc.

The Steelers needed a QB in a year that brought 3 of them out of the draft. We've needed a good QB, and haven't been in the position to draft one since Cutler. Only problem was, at the same time we had no LT.

When you've only got a few needs, it's easy to look like a genius, letting the draft come to you. However, filling the roster out didn't prove to work so well either with Mangini.

Regardless of what people wanted to happen, we are a better team today than we were two days ago. Are we done? Of course not, but I'm happier to have Sanchez than a WR and Clemens v. Ratliff.

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2006: 10 picks

Round Pick Player Pos School

1 21(21) Laurence Maroney RB Minnesota

2 4(36) Chad Jackson WR Florida

3 22(86) David Thomas TE Texas

4 9(106) Garret Mills TE Tulsa

4 21(118) Stephen Gostkowski K Memphis

5 3(136) Ryan O'Callaghan T California

6 22(191) Jeremy Mincey DE Florida

6 36(205) Dan Stevenson OG Notre Dame

6 37(206) Le Kevin Smith DT Nebraska

7 21(229) Willie Andrews S Baylor

...and the only good one is the friggin' kicker.

Enough of this "Patriots are drafting geniuses" garbage. They trade down for so many picks because they suck at it. First round linemen they do a great job. Clearly they've been fortunate - to say the least - in finding QB's in the 6th-7th round. Other than that, they don't draft very well no matter how many people yell "brilliant" after every one of their stupid future-bust picks.

Sorry Sperm, but who they draft is irrelevent to me. That falls on their scouting. They have lots of picks, gain future picks, and have tons of ammunition for trade purposes. That is a savvy front office. The same front office that has built a dominant team over many seasons, brought in rings, drafted Brady and Wilfork (two of the best in the entire league at what they do), and beat us on a regular basis. Compare personnel all you want and play stat games and rosters and draftees---we are not a consistantly winning team. They are the winningest team in football over the past half-decade (at minimum.) I believe they must be doing something better than we are. Or perhaps they are just really lucky?

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I was having this conversation with a friend before. Yes, teams like the Pats and the Steelers always come out of the draft looking good.

You know why that is? Because they were good before then, and could make solid value picks.

You realize Mangini tried 'value' with us, and it netted us guys like Eric Smith and Anthony Schliegal.

It's easy to be a good team who needs a solid DB, and wait for one at the end of round 1. Same with an offensive guard, tight end, etc.

The Steelers needed a QB in a year that brought 3 of them out of the draft. We've needed a good QB, and haven't been in the position to draft one since Cutler. Only problem was, at the same time we had no LT.

When you've only got a few needs, it's easy to look like a genius, letting the draft come to you. However, filling the roster out didn't prove to work so well either with Mangini.

Regardless of what people wanted to happen, we are a better team today than we were two days ago. Are we done? Of course not, but I'm happier to have Sanchez than a WR and Clemens v. Ratliff.

The Steelers by far are the best-run franchise in the NFL, and have been for quite some time. Great owners, great GM, and great coaches that are perfect supplements to each other. When's the last time the Steelers signed anybody of value in the offseason?? Their team is almost entirely homegrown and as a result, you dont see them overpaying for anybody and they have tremendous depth where it matters (OL, DL, LB).

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I will say this though, in defense of the fans who are unhappy with our draft & off-season...

This pick better be good. Because they're not touching another QB for 2-3 years even if he's a bust. Elam was a backup, Ratliff was a backup, and in Ryan's defense Coleman probably would have been a backup also. The expense of the pick was who we otherwise would have selected both at #17 and at #52, plus the star player we could have signed with the $10M+ per year that Sanchez is going to get.

From THAT standpoint, he'd better be all Ryan & Schottenheimer think he is. History of junior QB's indicates he will not be. But then look at the last decade of superbowl QB's. They're all either undrafted or first round picks. Meaning they were highly touted or total surprises from out of nowhere:

Peyton Manning: round 1, #1 overall

Eli Manning: round 1, #1 overall

McNabb: round 1, #2 overall

McNair: round 1, #3 overall

Roethlisberger: round 1, #11 overall

Grossman: round 1, #22 overall

Brady: end of round 6

Hasselbeck: end of round 6

Brad Johnson: round 9

Warner: undrafted

Delhomme: undrafted

Schottenheimer has been the QB coach for Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Chad Pennington, and now Brett Favre. He's seen two full off-seasons of Brett Ratliff and three off-seasons (plus 8 starts) of Kellen Clemens. And his recommendation was to dump Ratliff and their #52 pick and move up from #17 to #5 for this kid.

While that doesn't mean he'll be all that (or even any good at all), it's at least an indication of what he saw in both Clemens & Ratliff.

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SirLanceMehlot, you're making the mistake of confusing causality.

The Pats are not a good team because they've stockpiled picks. They stockpile picks because they're good.

The Pats best player is a once in a lifetime 6th round HOF QB.

Their next 2 best players were acquired in a trade of picks (Moss, Welker). After that, their best players were 1st rounders (Seymour & the rest of the DLine).

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Granted the Pats are able to move around alot....but when you have the one piece of the puzzle (QB) in place, that happens to be the most important piece there is, you have tons of flexibility

Now, hopefully we have that piece

I think Tanny is tremendous....and can do the same

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The Pats are not a good team because they've stockpiled picks. They stockpile picks because they're good.

Exactly. There is no need to trade up and reach for a Sanchez or a Robertson. Instead you just let guys like Ty Warren or Vince Wilfork slide to you (yes I know there was a slight trade up for Warren, but still), or you move down for value.

Having a team that is already good lets you get away with that. If your team has glaring needs at premiere positions, you don't have that option.

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nope, they are a good team because of a combination of personnel, coaching and front office. Moss cost a fourth rounder. We bought Favre for a season and paid more. We paid top dollar for a linebacker that was a UFA and came cheap to the Ravens for years. We make bad decisions. We haven't the depth of the Pats, the Coaching of the Pats nor the front-office savvy of the PATS. Or Steelers. Or Giants. Hell, even the Dolphins are creeping up on us.

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Precicely, Jared.

Plus, if Sanchez works out we will all see the Jets' draft philosophy change. Also, the Jets won't be alternating between top 6 pick 1 year, mid teens/twenties next, top 6 pick, etc. If Sanchez works out the Jets will be drafting near the end of the 1st every year.

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nope, they are a good team because of a combination of personnel, coaching and front office. Moss cost a fourth rounder. We bought Favre for a season and paid more. We paid top dollar for a linebacker that was a UFA and came cheap to the Ravens for years. We make bad decisions. We haven't the depth of the Pats, the Coaching of the Pats nor the front-office savvy of the PATS. Or Steelers. Or Giants. Hell, even the Dolphins are creeping up on us.

FYI, Bill Belichick has a losing record as HC & GM without Tom Brady. That even includes the record from last year.

What brilliance did it take for BB & Pioli to pass on Tom Brady 5 times in the draft and then select him in th 6th knowing that he will be a future HOFer?

The Jets have made bad decisions for sure, but don't act like there is a certain "Patriot way" in doing things that inherently makes the Pats better than the Jets and others.

The Patriots coaching has been bad besides Belichick. Everyone of his coaches have failed on their own. Why? Didn't they know the "Patriot way"?

Tom Brady & 3 successful 1st rounders on the DLine goes a long way.

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Sorry Sperm, but who they draft is irrelevent to me. That falls on their scouting. They have lots of picks, gain future picks, and have tons of ammunition for trade purposes. That is a savvy front office. The same front office that has built a dominant team over many seasons, brought in rings, drafted Brady and Wilfork (two of the best in the entire league at what they do), and beat us on a regular basis. Compare personnel all you want and play stat games and rosters and draftees---we are not a consistantly winning team. They are the winningest team in football over the past half-decade (at minimum.) I believe they must be doing something better than we are. Or perhaps they are just really lucky?

Who they draft is NOT irrelevant. Their ineptitude other than first round linemen and retarded luck with Brady is in no small way a reason why they stockpile picks.

Wilfork was a no-brainer for the Jets at #12, let alone for the Pats at #21 when the Pats needed a NT. It was hardly "savvy" to draft him.

And if they knew so much about Brady, why did they wait so long to take him? Why did they pass on him 12 picks earlier, in the bottom of round 6 of that same draft, for Antwan Harris? The answer is obvious: they got lucky. This was not drafting genius. This was stupid luck, and it built a dynasty.

That trading down for sheer quantity of draft picks was something he learned from Parcells, who drafted some 23 players in his first two years here. They ended up with Jason Ferguson, James Farrior, and 21 stiffs.

Here is the real reason NE is doing this: they have an ungodly number of guys whose contracts are coming up.

New England Patriots free agents after 2009 (from Miguel's awesome cap page):

Logan Mankins

Stephen Neal

Nick Kaczur

Ben Watson

Dave Thomas

Vince Wilfork

Tedy Bruschi

Pierre Woods

Ellis Hobbs (just traded him today)

Russ Hochstein

Wesley Britt

Dan Connolly

Al Johnson

Ryan Wendell

George Bussey

Billy Yates

Mark LeVoir

Ryan O'Callaghan

Kevin Faulk

Matt Gutierrez

Sam Aiken

Joey Galloway

Stephen Gostkowski

Jarvis Green

Kenny Smith

Le Kevin Smith

Leigh Bodden

Mike Richardson

Eric Alexander

Tully Banta-Cain

Gary Guyton

Raymond Ventrone

Tank Williams

Chris Hanson

Nathan Hodel

And these guys are FA's after 2010:

Tom Brady

Matt Light

Randy Moss

Sammy Morris

Laurence Maroney

Fred Taylor

Don't kid yourself. New England knows they're going to lose a motherload of current talent over the next year or two. That, combined with their spotty drafting record after round 1, is why they are stockpiling picks. It has nothing to do with savvy. It's just being faced with reality.

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Who they draft is NOT irrelevant. Their ineptitude other than first round linemen and retarded luck with Brady is in no small way a reason why they stockpile picks.

Wilfork was a no-brainer for the Jets at #12, let alone for the Pats at #21 when the Pats needed a NT. It was hardly "savvy" to draft him.

And if they knew so much about Brady, why did they wait so long to take him? Why did they pass on him 12 picks earlier, in the bottom of round 6 of that same draft, for Antwan Harris? The answer is obvious: they got lucky. This was not drafting genius. This was stupid luck, and it built a dynasty.

That trading down for sheer quantity of draft picks was something he learned from Parcells, who drafted some 23 players in his first two years here. They ended up with Jason Ferguson, James Farrior, and 21 stiffs.

Here is the real reason NE is doing this: they have an ungodly number of guys whose contracts are coming up.

New England Patriots free agents after 2009 (from Miguel's awesome cap page):

Logan Mankins

Stephen Neal

Nick Kaczur

Ben Watson

Dave Thomas

Vince Wilfork

Tedy Bruschi

Pierre Woods

Ellis Hobbs (just traded him today)

Russ Hochstein

Wesley Britt

Dan Connolly

Al Johnson

Ryan Wendell

George Bussey

Billy Yates

Mark LeVoir

Ryan O'Callaghan

Kevin Faulk

Matt Gutierrez

Sam Aiken

Joey Galloway

Stephen Gostkowski

Jarvis Green

Kenny Smith

Le Kevin Smith

Leigh Bodden

Mike Richardson

Eric Alexander

Tully Banta-Cain

Gary Guyton

Raymond Ventrone

Tank Williams

Chris Hanson

Nathan Hodel

And these guys are FA's after 2010:

Tom Brady

Matt Light

Randy Moss

Sammy Morris

Laurence Maroney

Fred Taylor

Don't kid yourself. New England knows they're going to lose a motherload of current talent over the next year or two. That, combined with their spotty drafting record after round 1, is why they are stockpiling picks. It has nothing to do with savvy. It's just being faced with reality.

Their picks are irrelevent to my point, not their team. They don't overcompensate teams in trades, they don't overpay for FA's (though I realize this is because many players are eager to play for them) and as far as catching lightening in a bottle with Brady--it's only luck if it happens once--Matt Cassel anyone? They turn less into more. We don't. Savvy is picking up Baker and picking his brain, savvy is picking up older players on the cheap and squeezing seasons out of them for peanuts, savvy is always being prepared for the next obstacle--sort of like having a dozen draft picks when you know you've got "a ton" of contracts coming up. Savvy is being ahead of the curve and getting the most for the least. Tell me we've been good at that and I'll shut up now.

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Exactly. There is no need to trade up and reach for a Sanchez or a Robertson. Instead you just let guys like Ty Warren or Vince Wilfork slide to you (yes I know there was a slight trade up for Warren, but still), or you move down for value.

Having a team that is already good lets you get away with that. If your team has glaring needs at premiere positions, you don't have that option.

It's nice to hit the Tom Brady draft lottery too. :rolleyes:

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There is no way they can keep all of those guys and if they do they have to make some major cuts. Belly did this because he doesn't have pioli anymore to cherry pick for him so he's just throwing it all up there and seeing what sticks.

Incorrect. They stockpiled draft picks and moved down when Pioli was in charge if you think back .

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FYI, Bill Belichick has a losing record as HC & GM without Tom Brady. That even includes the record from last year.

What brilliance did it take for BB & Pioli to pass on Tom Brady 5 times in the draft and then select him in th 6th knowing that he will be a future HOFer?

The Jets have made bad decisions for sure, but don't act like there is a certain "Patriot way" in doing things that inherently makes the Pats better than the Jets and others.

The Patriots coaching has been bad besides Belichick. Everyone of his coaches have failed on their own. Why? Didn't they know the "Patriot way"?

Tom Brady & 3 successful 1st rounders on the DLine goes a long way.

The Patriot way is having Tom Brady.

Look at what every coach under BB has done since... They all lacked Tom Brady.

And yeah, they had success last year, but the schedule wasn't difficult, and they've got the best receiver since Jerry Rice, or ever, depending on your opinion there.

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Their picks are irrelevent to my point, not their team. They don't overcompensate teams in trades, they don't overpay for FA's (though I realize this is because many players are eager to play for them) and as far as catching lightening in a bottle with Brady--it's only luck if it happens once--Matt Cassel anyone? They turn less into more. We don't. Savvy is picking up Baker and picking his brain, savvy is picking up older players on the cheap and squeezing seasons out of them for peanuts, savvy is always being prepared for the next obstacle--sort of like having a dozen draft picks when you know you've got "a ton" of contracts coming up. Savvy is being ahead of the curve and getting the most for the least. Tell me we've been good at that and I'll shut up now.

You cannot be serious.

The Patriots signed Chris Baker to a $3M/year contract to "pick his brain" and this is being "savvy"? Talk about rationalizing anything they do. They signed Chris Baker because a monkey in the zoo eating his own feces could draft TE's better than the Patriots have done. If they offered that contract to Baker to pick his brain, then that would make them the worst run franchise in the NFL. You sign guys making the NFL minimum to pick their brain, as the Pats and Jets have both done with each other for years.

They don't overcompensate in trades? You mean like trading #52 and #75 for the 4th pick in round 2? That's what they traded when they moved up for Chad Jackson. Those two picks should get them into the bottom of round 1 (and they'd get an extra year on the player's rookie contract to boot). That is overcompensating to the tune of a mid 4th round draft pick; a hell of a lot more than the Jets throwing in the #228 pick, a 3rd-string QB who's never seen NFL action even in garbage-time, or a backup safety they didn't even offer a contract to until Cleveland made him an offer.

The Jets just "undercompensated" Cleveland in that trade up to #5, unless it is your belief they could have traded the Coleman-Elam-Ratliff trio to someone for a 2nd round draft pick this year.

Do you think any team in the NFL would have offered up a 2nd round pick this year for Kenyon Coleman + Abram Elam + Brett Ratliff? If you do not, then the Jets undercompensated in the trade.

The move up for Harris in 2007 was dead-on value-wise. (63+89+191 for 47+235)

The move up for Revis in 2007 was another example of the Jets undercompensating their trade partner. Jets gave up #25 + #59 + #164 = 1,056. Jets got #14 + #191 = 1,115.

In 2006, the Jets traded down from #35 to #53 with Washington and picked up the #37 pick in the 2007 draft. Unless Atlanta finishes with 4-5 wins this year, that's more than Pioli will end up getting for Tony Gonzalez.

In 2008, the Jets traded a 3rd and a 5th for pro bowl DT Kris Jenkins. A 3rd & a 5th, as in the same picks we used on Anthony Schlegel & Jason Pociask back when we were trading down & hoarding picks. Don't even go there with the quantity over quality.

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I don't give a flying **** about Chung or Tate or whoever they drafted. All I know is the Jets finally got a face and a franchise QB for their team.

The last time this happen is when we took the wonder boy #1 in about 1912. :biggrin:

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