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Effing Pats


sirlancemehlot

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The Pats have a set drafting philosophy and it's all about value. Pats do not over-spend. If they do, it will be for Wilfork.

Anyway, I'm comfortable with the way BB formulates his team. Call me kooky. ;)

OK Kooky

Time will tell..i feared them getting Harvin or maclin

thank gawd they traded down and got Wang Chung a slow safety;)

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OK Kooky

Time will tell..i feared them getting Harvin or maclin

thank gawd they traded down and got Wang Chung a slow safety;)

Strong Saftey - I'm betting he's better than the garbage man we have now: James Sanders.

I'm thinking Sanchez turns into a Chad Pennington type of player. Nice enough - good to decent - but ultimately not enough to stop you all from staring up at the Pats asses in the standings ;)

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Strong Saftey - I'm betting he's better than the garbage man we have now: James Sanders.

I'm thinking Sanchez turns into a Chad Pennington type of player. Nice enough - good to decent - but ultimately not enough to stop you all from staring up at the Pats asses in the standings ;)

i will give you 2009....i will not stare though;)

2010 Heart shaped jets tight arses win AFC east

Add Crabtree to the players i feared Mumbles getting..

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Here is the difference between the Patriot way and other teams (as I see it)

1. BB veiws all 59 players as important. (53 roster + PS). And considers depth more important than having the single best starter. Maroney is clearly not the best RB in the NFL. But I challenge you to find another team that had a RB as solid as BenJarrvus Green Ellis in the fourth spot on their depth chart when the season started last year. The injuries that NE had last year were worse than what the Jets or Dolphins suffered in 2007, yet NE didn't fold like a cheap tent, they kept churning along. While other teams may have a better 1-25 than NE's 1-25. NE 26-53 is better than anybody elses. In mythical world with no injuries NE would not dominate the way they do, but BB's way means the team can still compete late in the season when other teams are complaining, "if So and So wasn't injured (or in jail) we would still be competitive." New England did not win the 2001 SB because they had the best starting QB in the league. They won the SB because they had a damn good back up QB. Last year NE didn't win 11 games because the starting QB was the league MVP, but because BB cared enough about the back up QB position to develop Cassel over three years. In fact last year the NEP used their third round pick to improve the emergency QB position (K O'C over MG). Some teams don't care about who the back up QB is. BB cares about who the 3rd string QB is.

2. BB views the draft like a game of poker. Yes there is some skill involved, but it is mostly luck. Some guys that look promising will be busts some will execeed expectations. Best way to maximize the likelihood you will pick up a great player is to grab a bunch of them. Worst thing you can do is grab a guy who is gonna cost you millions of dollars and then realize he is a bust.

3. It is easier to assess the talent of folks who are already in the NFL than folks still in college. I don't know if Stafford or Sanchez or Freeman or White can play QB at an NFL level. And neither do you. Anyone who claims they have a way of being certain is a lier. But I can tell you with absolute certainty the QB that KC selected with their second round draft pick can play football at the NFL level. The best wide reciever selected in the first two rounds of the 2007 NFL draft was Wes Welker and the best wide reciever oveall was a 4th round pick named Randy Moss.

4. BB won't over pay. Name a New England Patriot that is being grossely overpaid. Maybe Light is a bit overpaid, but he isn't stealing coin like Gholston. And BB isn't as focused on wasting a pick as he is about wasting money. Mayo cost the Patriots a first round pick. Gholston cost the Jets a first round pick. But if Mayo was a bust he would have only cost the Patriots about half as much in terms of cap space as a Gholston bust. That is why BB trades down. He does't want to tie up $50 million in cap space on someone who hasn't proven he can play at an NFL level. Is Maroney a first round bust? He is not be contributing as much as Patriot fans would like, but his pay is not too far out of whack for what other RB make who contribute at his level.

The strenght of the Patriots FO is not better insight in draft picks, but in better salary management.

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the "buckshot" approach to drafting rarely produces more than 2 starters... they will be lucky if they get 1 guy that is great out of that crop. My guess is Darius Butler.

HEard they really wanted Eric Wood at 34, Chung was a panic pick.

How many open positions do they have?

Did their buckshot approach work last year? There has to be a reason they passed on Matthews and Malauga repeatedly. Redd, Guyton, Crable and Mayo must have some potential.

BTW why would they want Wood? Koppen is signed thru 2011.

http://www.patriots.com/search/index.cfm?ac=searchdetail&pid=24986&pcid=46

by December only 1 of these kids was still a Patriot

You looked where these players were drafted right?

A team coming off an AFC Championship game appearance is not going to have too many players at #127 and below making the team. Especially the 6 picked in the 6th round or lower. :rolleyes:

why hobbs was traded, can't sign all these picks

look for Suddenly Seemore to be traded real soon

:confused: They have cap room. They have had it since Cassell went to KC. Hobbs is traded and one of the first things he said is he sees the money other players are getting and he feels he should get at least the same. :confused: I bet Eagle fan is going to love him.

FYI, Bill Belichick has a losing record as HC & GM without Tom Brady. That even includes the record from last year.

What brilliance did it take for BB & Pioli to pass on Tom Brady 5 times in the draft and then select him in th 6th knowing that he will be a future HOFer?

The Jets have made bad decisions for sure, but don't act like there is a certain "Patriot way" in doing things that inherently makes the Pats better than the Jets and others.

The Patriots coaching has been bad besides Belichick. Everyone of his coaches have failed on their own. Why? Didn't they know the "Patriot way"?

Tom Brady & 3 successful 1st rounders on the DLine goes a long way.

No. They are not Belichick. It is his system.

He took over a crap Cleveland team. He did not have the benefit of the FA team's enjoy today. He did not have the salary cap. He turned the team around. He made the playoffs and if not for Modell sabotaging his last year with the move. The team was 15-9 and a with a playoff victory over Par$ells' Patriots when Modell moved the tam and it crashed and burned finishing 1-7.

He made mistakes in Cleveland, but he had the team going in the right direction.

Who they draft is NOT irrelevant. Their ineptitude other than first round linemen and retarded luck with Brady is in no small way a reason why they stockpile picks.

Wilfork was a no-brainer for the Jets at #12, let alone for the Pats at #21 when the Pats needed a NT. It was hardly "savvy" to draft him.

And if they knew so much about Brady, why did they wait so long to take him? Why did they pass on him 12 picks earlier, in the bottom of round 6 of that same draft, for Antwan Harris? The answer is obvious: they got lucky. This was not drafting genius. This was stupid luck, and it built a dynasty.

That trading down for sheer quantity of draft picks was something he learned from Parcells, who drafted some 23 players in his first two years here. They ended up with Jason Ferguson, James Farrior, and 21 stiffs.

Here is the real reason NE is doing this: they have an ungodly number of guys whose contracts are coming up.

New England Patriots free agents after 2009 (from Miguel's awesome cap page):

Logan Mankins

Stephen Neal

Nick Kaczur

Ben Watson

Dave Thomas

Vince Wilfork

Tedy Bruschi

Pierre Woods

Ellis Hobbs (just traded him today)

Russ Hochstein

Wesley Britt

Dan Connolly

Al Johnson

Ryan Wendell

George Bussey

Billy Yates

Mark LeVoir

Ryan O'Callaghan

Kevin Faulk

Matt Gutierrez

Sam Aiken

Joey Galloway

Stephen Gostkowski

Jarvis Green

Kenny Smith

Le Kevin Smith

Leigh Bodden

Mike Richardson

Eric Alexander

Tully Banta-Cain

Gary Guyton

Raymond Ventrone

Tank Williams

Chris Hanson

Nathan Hodel

And these guys are FA's after 2010:

Tom Brady

Matt Light

Randy Moss

Sammy Morris

Laurence Maroney

Fred Taylor

Don't kid yourself. New England knows they're going to lose a motherload of current talent over the next year or two. That, combined with their spotty drafting record after round 1, is why they are stockpiling picks. It has nothing to do with savvy. It's just being faced with reality.

Spotty drafting record after round 1?

Like Matt Light, Jarvis Green, David Givens, Deoin Branch, Tull Banta Cain, Dan Koppen, Assante Samuel, Eugene Wilson, Matt Cassell, Nick Kaczur, James Sanders and Ellis Hobbs? I could add a few more over the last few years but it is too early to tell.

All of these players were productive in New England. Four have gone on to greener pastures. However without the benefit of New England's system have struggled or were flat out crap. Yet, they were good in New England's system. Why?

It is the system. The Patriots draft for their system. Not Mel Kiper's perception of the system or the Jets' system. Maybe that is why when everyone was having them draft a QB (UCONN kid) or a LBer, they went safety, DT, corner, and OL in the first two rounds.

I love your laundrty list of players. :rolleyes: Out of all those names, Mankins, Wilfork, Brady and Moss are the only ones I really want to be there. Light and a few others, it would be nice, but if they can get someone better.....bye bye.

Sperm you are smarter then this.

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Here is the difference between the Patriot way and other teams (as I see it)

1. BB veiws all 59 players as important. (53 roster + PS). And considers depth more important than having the single best starter. Maroney is clearly not the best RB in the NFL. But I challenge you to find another team that had a RB as solid as BenJarrvus Green Ellis in the fourth spot on their depth chart when the season started last year. The injuries that NE had last year were worse than what the Jets or Dolphins suffered in 2007, yet NE didn't fold like a cheap tent, they kept churning along. While other teams may have a better 1-25 than NE's 1-25. NE 26-53 is better than anybody elses. In mythical world with no injuries NE would not dominate the way they do, but BB's way means the team can still compete late in the season when other teams are complaining, "if So and So wasn't injured (or in jail) we would still be competitive." New England did not win the 2001 SB because they had the best starting QB in the league. They won the SB because they had a damn good back up QB. Last year NE didn't win 11 games because the starting QB was the league MVP, but because BB cared enough about the back up QB position to develop Cassel over three years. In fact last year the NEP used their third round pick to improve the emergency QB position (K O'C over MG). Some teams don't care about who the back up QB is. BB cares about who the 3rd string QB is.

2. BB views the draft like a game of poker. Yes there is some skill involved, but it is mostly luck. Some guys that look promising will be busts some will execeed expectations. Best way to maximize the likelihood you will pick up a great player is to grab a bunch of them. Worst thing you can do is grab a guy who is gonna cost you millions of dollars and then realize he is a bust.

3. It is easier to assess the talent of folks who are already in the NFL than folks still in college. I don't know if Stafford or Sanchez or Freeman or White can play QB at an NFL level. And neither do you. Anyone who claims they have a way of being certain is a lier. But I can tell you with absolute certainty the QB that KC selected with their second round draft pick can play football at the NFL level. The best wide reciever selected in the first two rounds of the 2007 NFL draft was Wes Welker and the best wide reciever oveall was a 4th round pick named Randy Moss.

4. BB won't over pay. Name a New England Patriot that is being grossely overpaid. Maybe Light is a bit overpaid, but he isn't stealing coin like Gholston. And BB isn't as focused on wasting a pick as he is about wasting money. Mayo cost the Patriots a first round pick. Gholston cost the Jets a first round pick. But if Mayo was a bust he would have only cost the Patriots about half as much in terms of cap space as a Gholston bust. That is why BB trades down. He does't want to tie up $50 million in cap space on someone who hasn't proven he can play at an NFL level. Is Maroney a first round bust? He is not be contributing as much as Patriot fans would like, but his pay is not too far out of whack for what other RB make who contribute at his level.

The strenght of the Patriots FO is not better insight in draft picks, but in better salary management.

With that logic, there is no such thing as a bust after the insanity-money picks have passed.

The truth is that it's a lot easier to do what the Patriots do when you have superior coaching. You can throw all the money you want around at this or that player. But if your pre-game and in-game coaching sucks, it won't matter. If it's good (let alone if it's great), you can mask a lot of inadequacies that your bottom-25 players have. Hell, I once saw Ray Lucas QB the Jets to 4 straight Dec-Jan wins against teams with winning records.

And who are you calling a lier?

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With that logic, there is no such thing as a bust after the insanity-money picks have passed.

No, if you draft a guy in the 7th round and pay him league min to bench warm and then cut him at the end of the season, he is still a bust. He is just not the same mega-bust you have if you sign a guy with $30 mill in guarenteed money and you cut him at the end of the season.

But I would say it isn't so black and white as bust vs. not a bust. If you sign a guy thinking he would make a great LT and it turns out he is only a decent RT that is not as bad as if he can't contribute at all. A second rounder that turns out to be really third round talent is a bust. So is a first rounder that should not have been drafted at all. But they ain't the same degree of bust.

Also I do judge bust/not bust more on how much cap space you wasted on the player than how many or what pick you wasted.

And yes, by my logic it makes sense to always trade out of the insanity money picks because the the risk of a bust there is not just a wasted pick but a totally destroyed cap space situation.

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No, if you draft a guy in the 7th round and pay him league min to bench warm and then cut him at the end of the season, he is still a bust. He is just not the same mega-bust you have if you sign a guy with $30 mill in guarenteed money and you cut him at the end of the season.

But I would say it isn't so black and white as bust vs. not a bust. If you sign a guy thinking he would make a great LT and it turns out he is only a decent RT that is not as bad as if he can't contribute at all. A second rounder that turns out to be really third round talent is a bust. So is a first rounder that should not have been drafted at all. But they ain't the same degree of bust.

Also I do judge bust/not bust more on how much cap space you wasted on the player than how many or what pick you wasted.

And yes, by my logic it makes sense to always trade out of the insanity money picks because the the risk of a bust there is not just a wasted pick but a totally destroyed cap space situation.

I, like all the mods here, judge busts by moob size.

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No, if you draft a guy in the 7th round and pay him league min to bench warm and then cut him at the end of the season, he is still a bust. He is just not the same mega-bust you have if you sign a guy with $30 mill in guarenteed money and you cut him at the end of the season.

But I would say it isn't so black and white as bust vs. not a bust. If you sign a guy thinking he would make a great LT and it turns out he is only a decent RT that is not as bad as if he can't contribute at all. A second rounder that turns out to be really third round talent is a bust. So is a first rounder that should not have been drafted at all. But they ain't the same degree of bust.

Also I do judge bust/not bust more on how much cap space you wasted on the player than how many or what pick you wasted.

And yes, by my logic it makes sense to always trade out of the insanity money picks because the the risk of a bust there is not just a wasted pick but a totally destroyed cap space situation.

For years, and this may stem from Bitonti, but everyone here seems hell bent on defining bust. Bust is no difference than the word, 'good' or the word 'bad'.

It's an opinion.

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For years, and this may stem from Bitonti, but everyone here seems hell bent on defining bust. Bust is no difference than the word, 'good' or the word 'bad'.

It's an opinion.

It is an opinion, but it is an opinion that covers a wide swath with differing interpretations as we can see.

I think Bush is a bust. He is the #2 overall and is not able to carry a full load.

Now, if he was drafted to be a change of pace back, the receiving threat he is later and dynamic STer after 20. I think he would be a steal.

I imagine there are people will disagree with this.

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He turned the team around. He made the playoffs and if not for Modell sabotaging his last year with the move. The team was 15-9 and a with a playoff victory over Par$ells' Patriots when Modell moved the tam and it crashed and burned finishing 1-7.

Modell painted himself into corner and threw away the key.

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11 - 5 is a losing record.:confused0058: Ah, okay.

ManGenius didnt fail at 10 - 6. Jets fans were dancing on their roofs. Weis has a wining record at Dame. ND couldnt sign him to a big contract fast enough. The only major city more negative than Boston and NY is Cleveland. Nobody can win there.

Maybe, but Lebron seems to be doing pretty well right now, wouldn't you agree?

Besides, Belichick bombing in Cleveland was more attributable to his alienating of the fanbase and his complete mishandling of the Kosar/Vinny thing. Before the move was even announced, they were burning dummies of him outside of the stadium at every home game. The problem is that Boston revisionists like those in this thread tend to look back and simply see a record, then assume why something must have happened, rather than asking for an answer which they're clearly ignorant to. I'm guessing that it has to do with the fact that a blemish on Belichick's history is just intolerable, but it is what it is. The guy wasn't a very good coach in Cleveland, and anyone who saw his work firsthand would probably agree. Cleveland fans hated him, and with good reason, he simply wasn't very good at the time, and he also had the same personality that he does today.

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Besides, Belichick bombing in Cleveland was more attributable to his alienating of the fanbase and his complete mishandling of the Kosar/Vinny thing. Before the move was even announced, they were burning dummies of him outside of the stadium at every home game.

You are right BB did make a lot of enemies with the fan base. The man doesn't exactly have a warm and fuzzy personality. A lot of fans in NE wanted to burn him at the stake for not putting Bledsoe back in when Bledsoe was healthy enough to play.

Even the fan that paid his salary (Bob Kraft) wasn't too happy about it, but deferred to his head coach.

BB was right when he stood his ground in the Kosar/Vinny debate and he was right with the Brady/Bledsoe debate.

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It is an opinion, but it is an opinion that covers a wide swath with differing interpretations as we can see.

I think Bush is a bust. He is the #2 overall and is not able to carry a full load.

Now, if he was drafted to be a change of pace back, the receiving threat he is later and dynamic STer after 20. I think he would be a steal.

I imagine there are people will disagree with this.

I didn't think Bush was ever supposed to carry the full load.

I wouldn't call him a bust, because he's still a talented player, but he's not living up to expectations, that's for sure.

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I didn't think Bush was ever supposed to carry the full load.

I wouldn't call him a bust, because he's still a talented player, but he's not living up to expectations, that's for sure.

So is Vince Young and yet he has an average at best 15 year old vet forcing him to the bench.

The 2nd pick in the draft should not be taken out of the game when the team needs a crucial yard. Bush is a dynamic player. No arguments. However, when he is in, he makes the offense largely one dimensional.

If he was selected in the 20s, I would have no problem with him being labeled a success. However, at 2, he should not be a 3rd down back.

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Schottenheimer has been the QB coach for Drew Brees, Philip Rivers, Chad Pennington, and now Brett Favre. He's seen two full off-seasons of Brett Ratliff and three off-seasons (plus 8 starts) of Kellen Clemens. And his recommendation was to dump Ratliff and their #52 pick and move up from #17 to #5 for this kid.

While that doesn't mean he'll be all that (or even any good at all), it's at least an indication of what he saw in both Clemens & Ratliff.

Good post and, as always, good info. But, the last QB that Schottenjunior fell in love with was Kellen Clemens.

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Good post and, as always, good info. But, the last QB that Schottenjunior fell in love with was Kellen Clemens.

As my last line indicates, that doesn't mean Sanchez will be special. Only that he's seen some decent QB's, and 2-3 years of watching Clemens & Ratliff was enough to tell him that they are not.

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As my last line indicates, that doesn't mean Sanchez will be special. Only that he's seen some decent QB's, and 2-3 years of watching Clemens & Ratliff was enough to tell him that they are not.

Oy. I was just pointing out that Schottenjunior may not be the authority one wants to appeal to in any instance. He's kind of slimy.

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They are the winningest team in football over the past half-decade (at minimum.)

You won't want to hear this but it's actually much longer than that. The Patriots are the NFL's most winningest team since Robert Kraft bought the team in 1994. In those 15 seasons they have a regular season record of 156-84 (.650) which is tops in the league. They also have a playoff record of 17-7 (.708) which is also tops in the league. Additionally, they lead the league in Super Bowl wins (3) and appearances (5) in that time period. They also have eight division titles (10 first place finishes), and ten playoff appearances which may or may not be the most in the league but I can't say for sure as I don't have the league info on those last two categories.

Not too shabby....

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You won't want to hear this but it's actually much longer than that. The Patriots are the NFL's most winningest team since Robert Kraft bought the team in 1994. In those 15 seasons they have a regular season record of 156-84 (.650) which is tops in the league. They also have a playoff record of 17-7 (.708) which is also tops in the league. Additionally, they lead the league in Super Bowl wins (3) and appearances (5) in that time period. They also have eight division titles (10 first place finishes), and ten playoff appearances which may or may not be the most in the league but I can't say for sure as I don't have the league info on those last two categories.

Not too shabby....

Very impressive. It's a shame that it is all coming to an end. I'll give it about 3 or 4 more years tops until New England is in the basement again. Pats are falling apart.

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You won't want to hear this but it's actually much longer than that. The Patriots are the NFL's most winningest team since Robert Kraft bought the team in 1994. In those 15 seasons they have a regular season record of 156-84 (.650) which is tops in the league. They also have a playoff record of 17-7 (.708) which is also tops in the league. Additionally, they lead the league in Super Bowl wins (3) and appearances (5) in that time period. They also have eight division titles (10 first place finishes), and ten playoff appearances which may or may not be the most in the league but I can't say for sure as I don't have the league info on those last two categories.

Not too shabby....

Yes they have certainly been marvelous . Oh yeah...... * :Nuts:

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Very impressive. It's a shame that it is all coming to an end. I'll give it about 3 or 4 more years tops until New England is in the basement again. Pats are falling apart.

And, only 48 months till it happens. :rl:

The AFCE is all the Patriots in 09 while Sanchez looks for his swagger.

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You are right BB did make a lot of enemies with the fan base. The man doesn't exactly have a warm and fuzzy personality. A lot of fans in NE wanted to burn him at the stake for not putting Bledsoe back in when Bledsoe was healthy enough to play.

Even the fan that paid his salary (Bob Kraft) wasn't too happy about it, but deferred to his head coach.

BB was right when he stood his ground in the Kosar/Vinny debate and he was right with the Brady/Bledsoe debate.

Dude, no offense, but where are you from? Besides Ron Borges, who exactly wanted to burn BB at the stake for not putting Bledsoe back in when he was healthy after most people recognized what Brady had? There was a debate amongst the fans, for sure, but a weak one. Brady won most of the fanbase over - especially after realizing that Bledsoe was a statue with a strong arm and little pocket presence. Oh, and the way he would pat that football and project those throws. Yeah! ;)

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