Halladay vs. Santana

[Otter]

Who is the best starting pitcher in baseball?

[Zeebers]

Halladay is a workhorse, but Santana is a more dominant pitcher. He's proved it in both leagues.

[Otter]

Here are links to their respective stats:

Halladay: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hallaro01.shtml

Santana: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/santajo02.shtml

[Guido Monzino]

2008 Mets get into the playoffs with Halladay in place of Santana. With Roy, you don't have to worry about your bullpen blowing his stellar starts, because he goes deeper into games.

This isn't about their history. It's about their current state. Halladay dominates in a much stronger league. Santana would still be great in the AL, but not as dominant as he was a few years ago.

[Vudu]

Zack Grienke

[Blackout]

WHERES JON LESTER

[Lurker]

Going by this season, it's Greinke.

Halladay vs. Santana? Halladay by a nose.

[PFSIKH]

I went with Santana because his potential for domination is greater then Halladay's.

However, Guido brings up a great point. Halladay is able to go 9 more often.

I would say......Push.

[Tucker134]

2008 Mets get into the playoffs with Halladay in place of Santana. With Roy, you don't have to worry about your bullpen blowing his stellar starts, because he goes deeper into games.

This isn't about their history. It's about their current state. Halladay dominates in a much stronger league. Santana would still be great in the AL, but not as dominant as he was a few years ago.

Spoken like a true Met-hater...you are very consistent

[GimmeShelter]

2008 Mets get into the playoffs with Halladay in place of Santana. With Roy, you don't have to worry about your bullpen blowing his stellar starts, because he goes deeper into games.

This isn't about their history. It's about their current state. Halladay dominates in a much stronger league. Santana would still be great in the AL, but not as dominant as he was a few years ago.

How the hell do you know how dominant he'd be?? Santana owned the so called stronger league in a manner Halladay has not. Right now he is pitching better than Halladay as well and has done so for his career. Also how do you know which games the pen blows or doesn't?

This is nothing more than Yankee fans trying to justify not trading for Johan by claiming he is not the best in the game.

Santana won the triple crown of pitching over a 4yr period in the American League so let's just say he had zero problems dominating that league.

Santana is also more of a strikeout pitcher so in todays pitch count world, less complete games. Since he became a SP he has logged more innings than Halladay every season but one and that being his NL debut where you get pinch hit for. For their careers Halladay avgs 17 more innings over a 162 game schedule or roughly a half of a inning more a start.

That tells me that Halladay when on, can go the full 9 as he has 4x as many complete games than Johan but has many more outings where he is knocked out earlier.

[Guido Monzino]

Spoken like a true Met-hater...you are very consistent

I've never made any indication that I hate the Mets. I in fact, do not. This isn't about what team a guy plays for. I may rip on Mets fans that are Yankee haters, but you very rarely, if ever find me say anything bad about the Mets themselves outside of the occasional sarcastic Latin crack.

It's about the fact that right now, if I was building a team, I would rather have Halladay.

And do you really think YOU of all people is in a position to call someone a biased hater? Is that not the funniest comment ever made? By anyone?

Ludicrous. Get over yourself. If anyone is being biased it's clearly you. Clearly, you think that if anyone disputes any argument that pertains to a guy on your team, that the person is way off base. Just because of his uniform.

[Guido Monzino]

How the hell do you know how dominant he'd be?? Santana owned the so called stronger league in a manner Halladay has not. Right now he is pitching better than Halladay as well and has done so for his career. Also how do you know which games the pen blows or doesn't?

You can't count how many games the Mets bullpen blew for Johan last year?

This is nothing more than Yankee fans trying to justify not trading for Johan by claiming he is not the best in the game.

Typical self-defensive Mets fan attitude. The Yankees have nothing to do with this. This is my opinion as a baseball fan. Get over someone not sucking off a guy on your team. Besides, your point is stupid - I obviously acknowledge Johan is the 2nd best in baseball. Being 1st best or 2nd best doesn't really make a difference in the "should they or shouldn't they have traded for him?" discussion pertaining the Yankees. Being slightly less of a pitcher than Roy Halladay is in no way an insult.

[faba]

If you are a Yankee fan you have to say Halladay- he has shut them down while against Santana the Yanks usually did all right with.

[Blackout]

surprised Gainzo hasn't came in and said Beckett yet lol

[PFSIKH]

[quote name='Blackout

[MagicBizkit87]

Halladay pitches in the toughest division in baseball, and is the best pitcher in that division, so give me Halladay, because he always pitches complete games easily, but Santana is dominant as well, but the Mets treat even him like a baby, which is why they always lose with his starts.

[Blackout]

If we are talking post season, there is no one else I would want but Beckett.

WHAT ABOUT CHRISTY MATHEWSON YOU FOOL???

HAHAHAHA YOU DIDN'T SAY "CURRENT"

[Zeebers]

You can't count how many games the Mets bullpen blew for Johan last year?

Typical self-defensive Mets fan attitude. The Yankees have nothing to do with this. This is my opinion as a baseball fan. Get over someone not sucking off a guy on your team. Besides, your point is stupid - I obviously acknowledge Johan is the 2nd best in baseball. Being 1st best or 2nd best doesn't really make a difference in the "should they or shouldn't they have traded for him?" discussion pertaining the Yankees. Being slightly less of a pitcher than Roy Halladay is in no way an insult.

Halladay is great, no one would debate that. (strangely some folks on this board actually think he isn't even the best pitcher in the AL, but that is a story for another day) Regardless, you are basing one aspect of Doc's game and declaring him superior to Santana and that is just shortsighted. I am not going to debate you if you want a guy to go nine innings. I would go with Halladay. However, this thread is about who is a "better" pitcher? I don't think you can go against Santana's history. Santana destroys Sabathia in every single pitching categories. Career BAA: Santana .221 vs .254. Career Whip:1.10 vs 1.20. K/9 inn 9.3 vs 6.4. Career winning percentage .68% vs 67%. Career ERA. 3.05 as opposed to 3.50.

How you can say without a doubt the better pitcher is Halladay is beyond me. Santana is not exactly slowing down, he's pitching to a .78 ERA this year and led the majors in ERA last year.

Again if you want a pitcher to go 9 innings I would go with Halladay, but if you want the superior pitcher, I don't think there is much of a debate. Santana generally goes 7 maybe 8 innings tops, but if you are talking about durability. Doc is the pitcher that has had some injury issues in his history.

There are a lot of factors that determine why a pitcher don't go 9. Santana is a power pitcher and generally guys that strike out a lot of guys will throw a lot more pitches. Halladay is more of a sinker ground ball guy and that generally leads to longer outings. Santana is physically a little smaller than Doc and that can be a factor. Last but not least, if Halladay is pitching with the Mets he is not getting as many CGs. THE NL is a much different league, and I can assure you Halladay would have been pulled for pinch hitters in some close games. That's just the way baseball goes. Other than to say that the Mets could have won more games last year because Halladay would have gone deeper into game is all hypothetical. The Mets could have easily lost more games because Halladay historically has given up more runs than Santana.

[JetsMetsRangers]

Halladay is great, no one would debate that. (strangely some folks on this board actually think he isn't even the best pitcher in the AL, but that is a story for another day) Regardless, you are basing one aspect of Doc's game and declaring him superior to Santana and that is just shortsighted. I am not going to debate you if you want a guy to go nine innings. I would go with Halladay. However, this thread is about who is a "better" pitcher? I don't think you can go against Santana's history. Santana destroys Sabathia in every single pitching categories. Career BAA: Santana .221 vs .254. Career Whip:1.10 vs 1.20. K/9 inn 9.3 vs 6.4. Career winning percentage .68% vs 67%. Career ERA. 3.05 as opposed to 3.50.

How you can say without a doubt the better pitcher is Halladay is beyond me. Santana is not exactly slowing down, he's pitching to a .78 ERA this year and led the majors in ERA last year.

Again if you want a pitcher to go 9 innings I would go with Halladay, but if you want the superior pitcher, I don't think there is much of a debate. Santana generally goes 7 maybe 8 innings tops, but if you are talking about durability. Doc is the pitcher that has had some injury issues in his history.

There are a lot of factors that determine why a pitcher don't go 9. Santana is a power pitcher and generally guys that strike out a lot of guys will throw a lot more pitches. Halladay is more of a sinker ground ball guy and that generally leads to longer outings. Santana is physically a little smaller than Doc and that can be a factor. Last but not least, if Halladay is pitching with the Mets he is not getting as many CGs. THE NL is a much different league, and I can assure you Halladay would have been pulled for pinch hitters in some close games. That's just the way baseball goes. Other than to say that the Mets could have won more games last year because Halladay would have gone deeper into game is all hypothetical. The Mets could have easily lost more games because Halladay historically has given up more runs than Santana.

Halladay pitches more complete games but you make a good point, how many times has Santana been removed for a PH in the NL...With all his complete games Halladay pitched 12 more innings than Santana last year....

Both are great pitchers but the idea that Halladay goes deeper into games consistantly is not beared out by the stats....12 innings over 33-34 starts is not significant ( About 1 batter per game) especially because of no DH in the NL....

[CrazyCarl40]

Doc Halladay will go down as one of the most underrated pitchers of all time because he plays north of the border and in the same division as the Sox and Yanks. People just falt out forget about him sometime. Of course, he doesn't have too much pressure up there either.

[Guido Monzino]

Halladay is great, no one would debate that. (strangely some folks on this board actually think he isn't even the best pitcher in the AL, but that is a story for another day) Regardless, you are basing one aspect of Doc's game and declaring him superior to Santana and that is just shortsighted. I am not going to debate you if you want a guy to go nine innings. I would go with Halladay. However, this thread is about who is a "better" pitcher? I don't think you can go against Santana's history. Santana destroys Sabathia in every single pitching categories. Career BAA: Santana .221 vs .254. Career Whip:1.10 vs 1.20. K/9 inn 9.3 vs 6.4. Career winning percentage .68% vs 67%. Career ERA. 3.05 as opposed to 3.50.

How you can say without a doubt the better pitcher is Halladay is beyond me. Santana is not exactly slowing down, he's pitching to a .78 ERA this year and led the majors in ERA last year.

Again if you want a pitcher to go 9 innings I would go with Halladay, but if you want the superior pitcher, I don't think there is much of a debate. Santana generally goes 7 maybe 8 innings tops, but if you are talking about durability. Doc is the pitcher that has had some injury issues in his history.

There are a lot of factors that determine why a pitcher don't go 9. Santana is a power pitcher and generally guys that strike out a lot of guys will throw a lot more pitches. Halladay is more of a sinker ground ball guy and that generally leads to longer outings. Santana is physically a little smaller than Doc and that can be a factor. Last but not least, if Halladay is pitching with the Mets he is not getting as many CGs. THE NL is a much different league, and I can assure you Halladay would have been pulled for pinch hitters in some close games. That's just the way baseball goes. Other than to say that the Mets could have won more games last year because Halladay would have gone deeper into game is all hypothetical. The Mets could have easily lost more games because Halladay historically has given up more runs than Santana.

If the number of innings a guy throws is going to be thrown out in this argument, then Mariano Rivera is better than both of them. In fact, that makes him the greatest pitcher of all time.

[Zeebers]

If the number of innings a guy throws is going to be thrown out in this argument, then Mariano Rivera is better than both of them. In fact, that makes him the greatest pitcher of all time.

I am not throwing anything out of the equation. I am merely stating the fact that you only take one factor into account and it is all a hypothetical. There is no way to know that Halladay will be able to have as much complete games in the NL as he did in the AL due to the double switches and such. He may, but at best it is a hypothetical. For example, If Santana had the Phils bullpen last year and he goes 23-5 which he could easily have. Does that make him a better pitcher than Halladay in your eyes. All I am doing is basing everything on statistical facts, and your best arguments is a "what if".

[Guido Monzino]

I am not throwing anything out of the equation. I am merely stating the fact that you only take one factor into account and it is all a hypothetical. There is no way to know that Halladay will be able to have as much complete games in the NL as he did in the AL due to the double switches and such. He may, but at best it is a hypothetical. For example, If Santana had the Phils bullpen last year and he goes 23-5 which he could easily have. Does that make him a better pitcher than Halladay in your eyes. All I am doing is basing everything on statistical facts, and your best arguments is a "what if".

Come on, great pitchers (especially Santana) don't frequently get pulled from games because the manager wants to pinch hit. Santana is usually pulled because his pitch count is high earlier in games.

Your bullpen argument falls short too. Going deep in games doesn't only help you, it helps your bullpen. It gives them the rest they need in a long season. Who knows? Not only does Halladay win those games the Mets' bullpen blew for Santana, but maybe they would have been better in other games that he didn't pitch in due to the rest as well.

Both guys are flithy. Halladay is just as effective at getting outs as Santana, only he does it more efficiently. He doesn't need to rely on anyone else as often. He eats more innings, which helps the entire pitching staff, not just himself. That's why I take him on my team.

You can't dismiss the difference between pitching in the AL East vs. the NL East either. It's not even a close comparison.

[JetsMetsRangers]

Since Santana became a full time starter in 2004 he has answered the bell consistantly for 168 starts during that time with never less than 33 in a season.....Halladay in the same time frame has made 136 starts and never made more starts than Santana in a given season although within 2 starts the last 3 years....

Another reason i feel Santana gets the nod here....Santana has been more durable and reliable.....

[neckdemon]

2008 Mets get into the playoffs with Halladay in place of Santana. With Roy, you don't have to worry about your bullpen blowing his stellar starts, because he goes deeper into games.

This isn't about their history. It's about their current state. Halladay dominates in a much stronger league. Santana would still be great in the AL, but not as dominant as he was a few years ago.

there is no reaosn to belive that johan wouldn't be dominating in the Al if he was still there. this is entirely speculation and it's worth nothing as an argument for why you think halladay is better than johan. there's a reason yankees fans want to downplay johans dominanace.....it because they really wish they had gotten him last year and now they want to find any reason they can to say he's not as good as he is or (as they say) used to be. johan is still the best pitcher in baseball.......and he's not doing anything to dispel the notion.....matter of fact he's reinforcing it with his performance thus far.

[neckdemon]

Both guys are flithy. Halladay is just as effective at getting outs as Santana, only he does it more efficiently. He doesn't need to rely on anyone else as often. He eats more innings, which helps the entire pitching staff, not just himself. That's why I take him on my team.

.

halladays 1.202 whip, 6.4 k/9, compared to johans 1.098 and 9.3 k/9 say you are wrong.

another thing...you act like johans has been in the NL his entire career. he just moved over and did what any great Al pitcher should do.......dominated even more when he doesn't have to face a DH.

[neckdemon]

If you are a Yankee fan you have to say Halladay- he has shut them down while against Santana the Yanks usually did all right with.

no if you're a yankees fan you say halladay cause you secretly cry yourselves to sleep every night over the fact tha tyou could have had him but instead you have sabathicow and burnett.

hey it's ok though......you may not have the best pitcher or even the second best pitcher in baseball but you do have the fattest pitcher in baseball. has to count for something right?

[Guido Monzino]

no if you're a yankees fan you say halladay cause you secretly cry yourselves to sleep every night over the fact tha tyou could have had him but instead you have sabathicow and burnett.

hey it's ok though......you may not have the best pitcher or even the second best pitcher in baseball but you do have the fattest pitcher in baseball. has to count for something right?

This is beyond idiotic. As I said before this has nothing to do with the Yankees. Even if it did, the fact that Santana may be slightly less of a pitcher than Halladay would be of no consolation to us regarding a trade that never happened, nor is it an insult to him as a pitcher.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend, but Yankees fans aren't like Mets fans. We don't look across town with disdain and constant desire to draw comparison between the two. The Mets just another team. Like the Brewers or Giants are.

What this is becoming about is Mets fans throwing a fit because HOW DARE SOMEONE QUESTION OUR GUY?

[neckdemon]

This is beyond idiotic. As I said before this has nothing to do with the Yankees. Even if it did, the fact that Santana may be slightly less of a pitcher than Halladay would be of no consolation to us regarding a trade that never happened, nor is it an insult to him as a pitcher.

I know it is hard for you to comprehend, but Yankees fans aren't like Mets fans. We don't look across town with disdain and constant desire to draw comparison between the two. The Mets just another team. Like the Brewers or Giants are.

What this is becoming about is Mets fans throwing a fit because HOW DARE SOMEONE QUESTION OUR GUY?

no...it's just that you haven't found a solid argument yet......so i have to figure it's something else. if your srgument is that halladay throws more complete games than santana...but is statistically inferior in every other category then you have no argument. if your argument isn't base don facts then it's based on your own biased opinion. cause there isn't one shred of sound evidence you shown that proves your point. except the guy throws more complete games/year. meanwhile santana beats him in every other category...including cy young awards (whihc he won in the AL by the way) and you can even throw in the fact that the man has won a triple crown. and he isn't showing any signs that he isn't as good a pitcher as he was when he left the Al 1 1/2 years ago....if anything he's proving how great he was by coming here and dominating even more so. so with the lack of any evidence that isn't just "what ifs" form you....i have to assume there is an underlying bias here. oh and the fact that some yankees fans go out of their way to say the mets are just another team...is just as telling.

edit: one more thing the fact that you are getting worked up over my little joke shows how defensive you are over this, lol. it's ok i heard they have sabathia on the south beach diet.

[Guido Monzino]

no...it's just that you haven't found a solid argument yet......so i have to figure it's something else. if your srgument is that halladay throws more complete games than santana...but is statistically inferior in every other category then you have no argument. if your argument isn't base don facts then it's based on your own biased opinion. cause there isn't one shred of sound evidence you shown that proves your point. except the guy throws more complete games/year. meanwhile santana beats him in every other category...including cy young awards (whihc he won in the AL by the way) and you can even throw in the fact that the man has won a triple crown. and he isn't showing any signs that he isn't as good a pitcher as he was when he left the Al 1 1/2 years ago....if anything he's proving how great he was by coming here and dominating even more so. so with the lack of any evidence that isn't just "what ifs" form you....i have to assume there is an underlying bias here. oh and the fact that some yankees fans go out of their way to say the mets are just another team...is just as telling.

edit: one more thing the fact that you are getting worked up over my little joke shows how defensive you are over this, lol. it's ok i heard they have sabathia on the south beach diet.

zzzz

Bottom line, and you know this is true: If Halladay is on the 2008 Mets instead of Santana, they make the playoffs. End of story.

[JetsMetsRangers]

The argument that Halladay is an innings eater while Santana is some 6 inning pitcher or something is way off......2008 Halladay pitched a whopping 12 more innings than Santana.....More importantly at the end of the season where the bullpen might be tired Santana actually went deeper into games than Halladay did...

Last 10 starts Santana pitched 73.1 innings with 2 CG's and failed to go at least 7 innings twice...

Halladay in his last 10 starts pitched 70.2 innings with 2 CG's and failed to pitch at least 7 innngs 4 times during that period...

[Guido Monzino]

The argument that Halladay is an innings eater while Santana is some 6 inning pitcher or something is way off......2008 Halladay pitched a whopping 12 more innings than Santana.....More importantly at the end of the season where the bullpen might be tired Santana actually went deeper into games than Halladay did...

Incorrect

2008:

Santana 6.89 innings/start

Halladay 7.24 innings/start

2009:

Santana: 6.57 innings/start

Halladay: 7.63 innings/start

That is not only significant, but does not even factor in the much, much softer lineups Santana works through each start.

[piney]

Santana is the better pitcher by far...but if I were to start a team I may go with Halladay over Santana only because I feel Santana could break down before Doc...I feel like Santana's size and frame could not take as much of a punishment over the life of his career as Doc could...

I could be wrong, but to me Johann is Pedro-like while Doc is Maddox-like....

[neckdemon]

zzzz

Bottom line, and you know this is true: If Halladay is on the 2008 Mets instead of Santana, they make the playoffs. End of story.

it's not end of story......it's a completely hypothetical scenario. therw is just no way to know what would have happened. maybe halladay gets hurt running the bases, maybe he gives up more runs/game than johan did and hence loses more games. maybe a har dliner hits him in the c*ck and he's out for the season. or, maybe he can't handle the pressure of playing on a big market and has a bad year. you just don't know what wpould have happened because he wasn't here. and either way, it still doesn't prove your point. i could say if the mets have k-rod instead of halladay they probably make the play-offs....but maybe they don't. it's all what-if and you can't make a point with what if. what if the ball doesn't go under buckners legs. what if vinny doesn't tear his achilles. what if, what if, what if. it just doesnt work that way. the numbers say tha tjohan has been a better pitcher over their careers than halladay has been. is he head and shoulders better? no, they're close.....but johan has still been slightly better in ever category but complete games. complete games are nice, but in todays baseball they're just not there anymore. is it because all of a sudden only halladay can do it? no. it's because thats the way the game is played now. and, especially in the NL where pitchers ar epulled for batters all the time, halladays complete game totals would go down. so thats another what-if you can add......you keep arguing with what-ifs...i'll stick to the facts.

[neckdemon]

Santana is the better pitcher by far...but if I were to start a team I may go with Halladay over Santana only because I feel Santana could break down before Doc...I feel like Santana's size and frame could not take as much of a punishment over the life of his career as Doc could...

I could be wrong, but to me Johann is Pedro-like while Doc is Maddox-like....

that doesn't make sense.....only because if i'm starting a team i'm not worried about 15 years down the road. that's just too far ahead to be looking. i'm looking for dominance for the next 5-7 years and, in that case, i'm taking pedro over anybody in the game today. when pedro was on he was one of the best pitchers ever to play. and the fact he did it all in the steroids era is even more impressive.