[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

1 hour ago, Big_Slick said:

Hopefully you don't get to pick in the top 5 of the first round but when you do and you need the second most important position - LT - and when one falls to you - you grab him.

JD knew LT was needed and was a very important position. He picked Becton with his first pick, which turned out to be a mistake - OK - it happens. But don't make it worse by ignoring your mistake and passing on a legit FLT prospect. 

I mean, by all accounts an LT didn't fall to us.  A RT or G did.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

Just now, The Crusher said:

Matter how fact? Yes, yes I do. 

Why did I know that post was your bat signal?  Fat signal?

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Do you have any idea what the weekly grocery bills for the Becton household is going to be over 50 years.  

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

5 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

well in your initial argument it seemed you were using this as proof why rehabilitation or motivation does not work completely forgetting the fact that the reason it does not work is because they usually have nobody in their corner nor any hope when released....poor analogy to a millionaire football player if you ask me.

The point being made was that punishment is an ineffective deterrent to behavior.

That other supports are beneficial, if not required for success, only further proves the point that punishment is an ineffective deterrent to behavior.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

2 minutes ago, Biggs said:

18 million before taxes isn't generational wealth.  Many of these players will be broke by 40.

If they're broke by 40 it's because of bad decisions.  Invested properly and you should never run out.  Hell, if after taxes, you put it all under your mattress, you could spend what, 250K a year for 50 years before you ran out.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

3 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

but there is flaw in that thinking...we are not just talking about Mims and Becton as they do have representation and that representation is also a motivator and they are urging these player to get themselves on "tape" and surely reminding them of consequences in language they understand. 

 

not like some kid going to jail for something and not be rehabilitated who has nobody in their corner.

I mean, we are talking about Mims and Becton.  They're the actors.  Who's supporting them isn't really relevant... Just what they do.

The NFL puts in place a 'no questions asked' car service to mitigate drunk driving, and yet, every year there's a handful of DUIs.

Some people aren't going to do right/better themselves regardless of the systems in place to support them.

3 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

not like some kid going to jail for something and not be rehabilitated who has nobody in their corner.

Ok, and?  I think we can all agree it's easier/better to be an NFL player than in prison.  Both at present and for future prospects.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

18 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Interesting post.   My take on Parcells is he was a great teacher and surrounding himself with high quality coaches who worked very hard.  In fact my take on all the great NFL HC's is they were simply smarter and outworked their contemporaries and surrounded themselves with like minded coaches.   Lots of his motivational tactics and his approach to media was actually schtick and much of it tongue in check and funny.   I think it helped in team building and he basically called out guys with schtick and guys who could handle it.  It sent a message to the team and helped build the team.

Most NFL players have been raised in a highly competitive environment.  Many of them want to be great having nothing to do with money.  Guys who are motivated by money have a lot to gain by getting a second and third contract.  It's up to management to figure this out and deal with them accordingly.  

NFL players during Parcells era were paid very high salaries on a comparative basis.   You have to go back to the 60's to an era when NFL players weren't highly paid on a relative basis.  Even in the 60's coaches like Lombardi and Stram were simply smarter and worked harder than their competitors. 

There have always been malcontents who were talented enough to make a difference in championship quality teams.  The Jets aren't there yet.  

Good points.  Parcells started as a HC before I was born, won two super bowls before I was 6, and was done with the Jets when I was in my mid-teens, so I can't say I have a great understanding of him as a coach.  That's why he was sort of an afterthought in my post vs. something I can speak to - motivation, rewards/punishment, and behavior change.

I do know that players were paid "a lot" back then, but I'm not sure it was to the same scale.  Today, Mehki Becton is generationally wealthy just based on his draft position.  Was that the case in the late 80s?  Players were rich, but did your first contract secure your great-grandchildren's future?  For Mims - maybe it's only him and his children, based on his 5M deal?

Also agreed that there will be guys who are malcontents or lazy that are so good they overcome that.  Mims and Becton are not.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

9 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

you left out one crucial reward...2nd contract.

These kids like all kids believe they will live forever but some of the smarter ones get a taste of the 1st contract and realize the incentive to get the 2nd whether be with current team or next.

I did leave out the 2nd contract - intentionally.  It's not relevant to a discussion of Becton/Mims.

That's because the type of person/player we are talking about isn't inherently motivated by long term rewards.  If they were, there'd be no malcontents, no loafers, everyone would be self-starters, and largely more successful.  Everyone in the NFL has the opportunity to get a massive 2nd contract, and yet, some still don't work hard.  Obviously that down the line reward isn't getting the job done.

Why is that?  Because not all people respond to rewards/consequences they don't immediately feel.  The 'now' is prioritized over long term planning.  Example: Smoking cigarettes is easily one of the dumbest things a person can do.  You're spending $15 a day to give yourself cancer and screw up your teeth and skin.  But, because the cancer is down the road, and not, of course, guaranteed, it's not a universal deterrent.

That a "contract year" is a thing proves this point in NFL terms.  When the reward is actually in sight, and nearly immediate, a person with low effort/low motivation may improve in these areas - and that's also why they tend to disappoint on that 2nd contract.

 

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

4 hours ago, Irish Jet said:

A lot of people were bizarrely delighted on passing on a tackle high in the draft. I never understood how anyone could have the slightest confidence in Becton, whether it’s his fault or not.

It’s been pretty ominous since going down early last year after being roasted in camp. I love Sauce as a player and think he’ll be great but you got to wonder if there isn’t some serious regret about leaving Zach exposed to this guy being pencilled in as a starter. It was going to blow up eventually.

Because with or without Becton, this team lacked talent all over the place, and many were happy to add talent elsewhere?

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

19 minutes ago, Irish Jet said:

Post is too long.

Take a lap.

It didn’t work on @Sperm Edwards or @Bleedin Green, so I’m not sure it’ll work on me.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

9 hours ago, freestater said:

Watching Todd Bowles win his division and run deep into the playoffs is gonna be fire. 

Seems like the time for my quarterly “Todd Bowles was framed” post.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

8 hours ago, T0mShane said:

E, can you expand on this a little bit? I’m interested in the thought that discipline, particularly in a team setting, might not ultimately be effective. As you know, my archetypal head coach was Bill Parcells, and his m.o. was all about discipline, cutting the head off the snake, etc, so my point of reference might be clearly outdated. Obviously, the Shanahans and McVays of the world are doing it differently, but I’m presuming that they do some sort of coercion to keep 53 players all in line. 

So, this largely falls in the behaviorism family - operant conditioning and whatnot - rewards and punishments.  The literature on punishment is pretty clear - it's largely ineffective, and only works in specific conditions when applied properly.  Behavioral rewards are a much more effective method of modification - this is shown over and over again.

Add an NFL player as a variable, and the waters get muddier and muddier.  They have a contract and they are paid ridiculous sums of money.  That's a reward.  That reward is coming regardless, in terms of guaranteed money but also in any other pay prior to a player being cut.  So, some extra laps, being embarrassed in front of others, getting benched, etc. isn't holding a candle to the reward that is inherent in just being there.  From a group perspective - society is a group of sorts, no?  I'm sure you're well aware of how ineffective prison is as both a deterrent to behavior as well as a modifier of behavior.  If denying someone's freedom is ineffective, why would extra laps for a millionaire be effective?

Getting out of behaviorism and into psychoanaltyics - the most successful portion of punishment is probably in satiating the anger/desire for retribution in the person doing the punishing for the perceived affront.  In other words, sadism.  We punish not because it works, but because it makes us feel good to do so.

On Parcells, we've seen periods of his career when he was successful, and periods when he was less so.  I'd hypothesize that his coaching skill and his rosters contributed to this at a far higher level than his discipline.  I'd suspect that his discipline was just a function of his personality and contributed very little.  I also suspect, speaking of out-dated, that if it was effective at all, perhaps when Parcells did it, that the rewards (money) was quite a bit less, and didn't so easily override attempts at punishment.

I think you have to be very thoughtful in this era of who you add to your team.  And, probably just cut/trade guys who are malcontents.  There was no fixing Jamal Adams.  Getting rid of him and not paying him was the win of the trade.  The picks were a bonus.  And with all that, it didn't change Adams at all - because in the NFL, there's always someone else dumb enough to give you the huge reward.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

Feels like the time to bring this back.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

1 minute ago, Joe Willie White Shoes said:

As always, they are happier being right than seeing the Jets have success.  Somehow it's more fun for them.  Go figure.  Another way the internet has poisoned minds.  Oh boy. I got to tell all those people I don't know on JN that I was right about Becton being a bust and how JD should have drafted Wirfs.  Woo Hoo! I was right! I got 3 minutes of enjoyment from that. Now I can spend another 50+ hours from September to December watching a bad football team. But ....I was right!

I’m wondering how you land on this conclusion?  When did the Jets “have success” and the posters you’re speaking about seemed unhappy, or less happy?

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Right, but Mims was still allowed to sleepwalk through the entirety of last season unchecked, and his peers watched every minute of it, along with Becton’s antics. I’m not sure that spending the #10 pick on a guy months later is the same as disciplining him in real time.

I guess I’m just not a believer that discipline works in any meaningful way at this stage of life.

I think by now, if you’re a dog (not to be confused with dawg), you’re a dog, and going in timeout isn’t going to much to change that.

Could have cut him, I guess, but I’m not sure how that benefitted the team.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The other piece of evidence we have that Saleh runs a loose ship was Denzel Mims last year dogging it through drills so hard that Connor Hughes was filming it to mock on his YouTube channel at a few different points last season. If Connor Hughes is seeing this is unacceptable behavior, why is the actual coaching staff tolerating that behavior from their WR5 who doesn’t even contribute on specials? 

In fairness, they essentially buried Mims last year and drafted his replacement this year.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

5 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

I agree with everything except that Beli doesn’t draft major busts like this - he does but he just had Brady for 20 years to ride those waves 

Not arguing that Belichick doesn't draft a major bust... That definitely happens.  I'm arguing that Belichick doesn't draft this specific type of bust.  Bad attitude, low effort bust.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I don’t think Becton is Saleh’s fault, per se, but I think Saleh handled the Becton situation poorly. In the scenario where Becton was as big a mush as we all think he was behind the scenes, Saleh and Douglas let it fester to the point where Becton clearly gave no sh*ts about anything they had to say. Belichick trades him for a fifth rounder after two practices with him.

Fair enough.  Kill it with fire was probably the right idea.

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

Honestly, if you had to place a bet on who you're more likely to see Becton compete against one day, would it be Joey Bosa or Joey Chestnut?

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I didn’t want to say it earlier because it’s whistling past the graveyard, but I thought Saleh was being cheeky earlier when he said that they weren’t panicking at all when Becton went down. This clears the deck for him almost entirely. If they can get Mims traded, he’s got his dream team of overachievers, plus Mosley

I don't know... This take sounds a lot like "Gase ruined Darnold" and "Rex ruined Sanchez" and whatnot.

Through Becton's tweets and the press conferences, do you really believe that Saleh is to blame here for not being able to motivate him?  What does Belichick do differently, besides not draft him in the 1st place?

[Merged Becton Injury Thread]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Dr Bob Saleh, batting .1000. 

I mean, it all makes a lot of sense when you consider how much Saleh obviously hates Becton.

[Camp Updates - Monday Aug 8]

14 minutes ago, Fantasy Island said:

I would hate to be Darnold's agent. It's all downhill from here.

3% of 18M is $540,000.

[Camp Updates - Monday Aug 8]

15 minutes ago, Matt39 said:

Holding the ball moreso than running for his life there 

Had the underneath route wide open.  Long way to go on seeing the field.

[Camp Updates - Monday Aug 8]

22 minutes ago, Lith said:

 

Interesting how the beat guys all call it a pretty significant limp and the guy paid by the Jets calls it "walking gingerly."

[Camp Updates - Monday Aug 8]

49 minutes ago, oatmeal said:

Not Jet related and idk why this tweet was deleted but:

 

“Allbright] Carolina shopping Darnold but can't get takers for his 5th year option salary.”
 

Damn Darnold truthers

Seahawks paying Jamal Adams and Carolina exercising the option on Darnold are two of the dumbest front office moves in recent NFL memory.