Rex Ryan is a 1-Dimensional Head Coach?

[CTM]

Rivers, Rodgers and Brees are all coached by guys who are considered some of the best offensive minds in Football. Brady once had Weiss. Manning is man child but some give Moore credit.

Overall, I really just dont get your position...in one breath you defend Schotty, in other you basically say the OC is obsolete.

MCarthy is one of the best ofensive minds in football?

[CTM]

MCarthy is one of the best ofensive minds in football?

if rodgers had been a jet, schotty would be a HC by now

[Bleedin Green]

if rodgers had been a jet, schotty would be a HC by now

If Rodgers had been a Jet he'd be out of the league by now.

[CTM]

If Rodgers had been a Jet he'd be out of the league by now.

heh.. the reality is that there's a lot of truth to what gato says.. look no further then the patsies... Remember when Belichick was considered a defensive genuis? Now that he doesn't have the horses, his defense stinks

[Bleedin Green]

heh.. the reality is that there's a lot of truth to what gato says.. look no further then the patsies... Remember when Belichick was considered a defensive genuis? Now that he doesn't have the horses, his defense stinks

It goes both ways. When you have a good coach, you still need the players in order to make things happen, but by the same token when you have the players you still need a coach who actually knows how to properly utilize them. Or is it your belief that the difference between the Jets 29th and 1st ranked passing D from 2008 to 2009 was the lockdown coverage abilities of Lito Sheppard? And are Bart Scott, Jim Leonhard and Marques Douglas always good for 7.4 less points allowed per game?

So the question becomes for the 2011 offense, which of the two, the players or the coach, is more proven to be an issue? Well we can answer that with one simple acknowledgment of which of these two statements is true:

(1) The offensive coordinator has had the opportunity over the course of many years to work with a multitude of players, many of whom were brought in during his tenure, including many high profile free agents, draft picks and trades, and repeatedly failed with all of them.

(2) The players have had the opportunity to work with more than just one offensive coordinator in their entire time with this team.

[CTM]

It goes both ways. When you have a good coach, you still need the players in order to make things happen, but by the same token when you have the players you still need a coach who actually knows how to properly utilize them. Or is it your belief that the difference between the Jets 29th and 1st ranked passing D from 2008 to 2009 was the lockdown coverage abilities of Lito Sheppard? And are Bart Scott, Jim Leonhard and Marques Douglas always good for 7.4 less points allowed per game?

So the question becomes for the 2011 offense, which of the two, the players or the coach, is more proven to be an issue? Well we can answer that with one simple acknowledgment of which of these two statements is true:

(1) The offensive coordinator has had the opportunity over the course of many years to work with a multitude of players, many of whom were brought in during his tenure, including many high profile free agents, draft picks and trades, and repeatedly failed with all of them.

(2) The players have had the opportunity to work with more than just one offensive coordinator in their entire time with this team.

huh... i'm not saying schotty is meaningless, I'm saying the quality of the QB goes a long way towards the percieved genuis of the OC... Schotty hasn't had a single good qb in here..

That being said, it's time for the guy to go.. even if it's just for a spark or a wake up call

[Bleedin Green]

huh... i'm not saying schotty is meaningless, I'm saying the quality of the QB goes a long way towards the percieved genuis of the OC... Schotty hasn't had a single good qb in here..

That being said, it's time for the guy to go.. even if it's just for a spark or a wake up call

I know what you're saying, but he's had his chance with 10 different QBs, 4 as starters... at least two of them were substantially more successful without him than with him. At what point do you acknowledge the lack of good QBs might actually have a little something to do with him? Isn't it his job to develop these guys? Wasn't his big calling card the fact that he developed two of the league's top QBs, both of whom played significantly better once he was no longer their QB coach?

[CTM]

I know what you're saying, but he's had his chance with 10 different QBs, 4 as starters... at least two of them were substantially more successful without him than with him. At what point do you acknowledge the lack of good QBs might actually have a little something to do with him? Isn't it his job to develop these guys? Wasn't his big calling card the fact that he developed two of the league's top QBs, both of whom played significantly better once he was no longer their QB coach?

blah blah.. and pennington and fave both had worse years without him.... can you honestly say we've had a good QB here? Are we watching the same team?

[Matt39]

blah blah.. and pennington and fave both had worse years without him.... can you honestly say we've had a good QB here? Are we watching the same team?

Just watch who the first person is to greet Holmes after this TD. Its inconceivable, in 2010, the Jets were lining this player up in the slot.

[CTM]

Just watch who the first person is to greet Holmes after this TD. Its inconceivable, in 2010, the Jets were lining this player up in the slot.

yes, but the downgrade at wr is tanny/s fault, not schotty's

[Matt39]

yes, but the downgrade at wr is tanny/s fault, not schotty's

So you think Richardson was being used in the passing game because we had no one else?

[CTM]

So you think Richardson was being used in the passing game because we had no one else?

iI thought you meant BE...

If you are talking about Richardson in the slot, and using a TD pass to prove how it was a bad idea, you might want to think about getting new evidence

[Matt39]

iI thought you meant BE...

If you are talking about Richardson in the slot, and using a TD pass to prove how it was a bad idea, you might want to think about getting new evidence

Have you watched Jets games over the past few seasons? Schotty lines the FB out a lot. It's absolutely ridiculous having a 40 year old full back playing on the outside, regardless of what the outcome of the play is. Find me another team in the league...hell find me a high school team doing that.

[Bleedin Green]

blah blah.. and pennington and fave both had worse years without him.... can you honestly say we've had a good QB here? Are we watching the same team?

I'm saying I fully believe the Jets will never be able to develop a QB as long as Brian Schottenheimer is the Jets offensive coordinator and those who are already developed will perform at their absolute worst under him. We're at 10 and counting, and there's not one single shred of evidence that proves anything but exactly that. Sure, if somebody feels like sending the Jets one of Rodgers, Brady, Rivers, Brees or a healthy Manning (Peyton only) then maybe that would break the cycle, but that's not happening.

You know I hated Pennington as much as anyone, but the guy was never more turnover prone than he was under Schotty. Favre had two of the best years of his career surrounded by his disaster of a year with the Jets, which only doesn't look even worse (and as bad as it truly was) because of a single game with huge numbers against the Cards. Not to mention the endless list of young talent who's come through this team and done nothing, multiple of whom have actually looked worse the longer they were around Schotty. And of all of these players, Pennington was the only one Schotty didn't have a hand in bringing to this team, so in what world does he deserve even the slightest bit of an excuse?

[CTM]

Have you watched Jets games over the past few seasons? Schotty lines the FB out a lot. It's absolutely ridiculous having a 40 year old full back playing on the outside, regardless of what the outcome of the play is. Find me another team in the league...hell find me a high school team doing that.

I think the cowboys used to do with Daryl Johnston, if memory serves

[Matt39]

I think the cowboys used to do with Daryl Johnston, if memory serves

Yeah, in 93.

[CTM]

I'm saying I fully believe the Jets will never be able to develop a QB as long as Brian Schottenheimer is the Jets offensive coordinator and those who are already developed will perform at their absolute worst under him. We're at 10 and counting, and there's not one single shred of evidence that proves anything but exactly that. Sure, if somebody feels like sending the Jets one of Rodgers, Brady, Rivers, Brees or a healthy Manning (Peyton only) then maybe that would break the cycle, but that's not happening.

You know I hated Pennington as much as anyone, but the guy was never more turnover prone than he was under Schotty. Favre had two of the best years of his career surrounded by his disaster of a year with the Jets, which only doesn't look even worse (and as bad as it truly was) because of a single game with huge numbers against the Cards. Not to mention the endless list of young talent who's come through this team and done nothing, multiple of whom have actually looked worse the longer they were around Schotty. And of all of these players, Pennington was the only one Schotty didn't have a hand in bringing to this team, so in what world does he deserve even the slightest bit of an excuse?

oy, 2003...his int% was 33% higher then in 2006

[Bleedin Green]

oy, 2003...his int% was 33% higher then in 2006

Are we seriously having this ******* conversation? As if you and I really need to have a debate on Penny's degree of sucktitude? Fine, because one of Schotty's ten QBs one time had a worse season, he's a ******* brilliant and it's all 10 of his QB's fault... happy?

Dumbass.

[CTM]

Are we seriously having this ******* conversation? As if you and I really need to have a debate on Penny's degree of sucktitude? Fine, because one of Schotty's ten QBs one time had a worse season, he's a ******* brilliant and it's all 10 of his QB's fault... happy?

Dumbass.

WEll, favre obviously has the same history..

Clemens just stinks... and Sanchez is still learning... this whole idea that QB's have only played poorly under Schotty when they've suceeded elsewere doesn't hold water

[Sperm Edwards]

Are we seriously having this ******* conversation? As if you and I really need to have a debate on Penny's degree of sucktitude? Fine, because one of Schotty's ten QBs one time had a worse season, he's a ******* brilliant and it's all 10 of his QB's fault... happy?

Dumbass.

Play nice.

[Bleedin Green]

WEll, favre obviously has the same history..

Clemens just stinks... and Sanchez is still learning... this whole idea that QB's have only played poorly under Schotty when they've suceeded elsewere doesn't hold water

No, your refusal to acknowledge it and make excuses for it doesn't dismiss it's relevance simply because you've decided you're on a "blame the QBs" binge and want to ignore the fact that of the Jets 4 starting QBs, all of them have actually shown significant declines in their play throughout their tenure in Schotty's offense and the two of which that went on to starting jobs after leaving the Jets, immediately showed immeasurably greater performance as soon as they went to the new team. For someone who I personally saw tear Penningtologists a new one for so many years for doing the same exact thing, you sure do enjoy picking and choosing what facts do and don't count on this particular topic, don't you?

[Bleedin Green]

Play nice.

Meh, it's just CTM... I know he's just trying to goad me into defending Chadwick or some sort of horse crap like that. We spent a good number of years on the other side aligned in our mutual hatred for the noodle.

[Sperm Edwards]

Meh, it's just CTM... I know he's just trying to goad me into defending Chadwick or some sort of horse crap like that. We spent a good number of years on the other side aligned in our mutual hatred for the noodle.

hater

[CTM]

No, your refusal to acknowledge it and make excuses for it doesn't dismiss it's relevance simply because you've decided you're on a "blame the QBs" binge and want to ignore the fact that of the Jets 4 starting QBs, all of them have actually shown significant declines in their play throughout their tenure in Schotty's offense and the two of which that went on to starting jobs after leaving the Jets, immediately showed immeasurably greater performance as soon as they went to the new team. For someone who I personally saw tear Penningtologists a new one for so many years for doing the same exact thing, you sure do enjoy picking and choosing what facts do and don't count on this particular topic, don't you?

Lol.. but no..

Both Chadwick and Favre have had worse years before and after Schott.. (Well chadwick got hurt (in typical fashion), but he was well on his way)

The third leg of that theory was comparing Clemens pro stats with a sieve for an offensive line against his college stats, in a weak conference, running the spread (which pimps stats yo)... Clearly this is not a well thought out analysis..

Meh, it's just CTM... I know he's just trying to goad me into defending Chadwick or some sort of horse crap like that. We spent a good number of years on the other side aligned in our mutual hatred for the noodle.

Not at all, I just think the theory is wrong. I don't particularly like schott and would be happy with him getting canned, but the facts are that the dude has had nothing at qb.. And when he sorta did, with Favre in the first 11 games of 08, we were a top 5 offense, if memory serves.. I have always believed that players are far more important then coaches, which is why when people tried to blame hackett for chad's woes, I argued it.. as did you, btw... you're the one with the shifted position, I've been very consistant on the matter

[Bleedin Green]

Lol.. but no..

Both Chadwick and Favre have had worse years before and after Schott.. (Well chadwick got hurt (in typical fashion), but he was well on his way)

The third leg of that theory was comparing Clemens pro stats with a sieve for an offensive line against his college stats, in a weak conference, running the spread (which pimps stats yo)... Clearly this is not a well thought out analysis..

Not at all, I just think the theory is wrong. I don't particularly like schott and would be happy with him getting canned, but the facts are that the dude has had nothing at qb.. And when he sorta did, with Favre in the first 11 games of 08, we were a top 5 offense, if memory serves.. I have always believed that players are far more important then coaches, which is why when people tried to blame hackett for chad's woes, I argued it.. as did you, btw... you're the one with the shifted position, I've been very consistant on the matter

Just to be clear, my point on Clemens had nothing to do with his college stats, but rather what I saw out of him his 5 years with the Jets. Would you disagree with the analysis that the performances we saw out of Clemens the first few games of his pro career were the height of his career, and that the Jets saw a consistent significant downgrade in his performances after that, capped by what was one of the most horrendously awkward looking games by a QB I've ever seen when he started in place of Sanchez in 09?

As far as Chad and Favre, they may have performed as badly at other times in their careers, but the point is that in their combined 3 seasons as Jets starter, both played seasons that were amongst the worst of their career, without exception and yet both put up one of the best seasons of their careers immediately after he was gone. So what, are we now just chalking it up to bad luck for Schotty that he was only ever able to get their worst out of them?

And while this ridiculous 08-based excuse fest has started to come up in the past year or so, do you really remember anyone being at all happy with the performance of the Jets early in 08? They were, as always, a completely inconsistent mess of an offense that racked up stats against the horrendous Ds of the Cardinals and Rams while sh*tting the bed in a number of other games that they won thanks in large part to vastly inferior competition and only started getting the hype about how great they allegedly were after their back to back wins over the Pats and the 10-0 Titans, which was immediately followed by their complete implosion.

As far as your last point, I'm not excusing Sanchez for anything because of Schotty, and I think you know better than that. I've said on more than one occasion that there's nothing to say Sanchez will suddenly improve with a new OC, but the point is that there's also nothing to say that any QB will ever have success under Schotty either. You have to admit there's a vast difference between dealing with an established veteran QB and the development of a young QB, and so I don't know why Schotty suddenly gets a pass because he failed to make anything out of 6 different rookie or 2nd year QBs he helped pick for this team and was responsible for developing.

[CTM]

Just to be clear, my point on Clemens had nothing to do with his college stats, but rather what I saw out of him his 5 years with the Jets. Would you disagree with the analysis that the performances we saw out of Clemens the first few games of his pro career were the height of his career, and that the Jets saw a consistent significant downgrade in his performances after that, capped by what was one of the most horrendously awkward looking games by a QB I've ever seen when he started in place of Sanchez in 09?

the league does get film on the kid after awhile, plus clemens was a pussy with little mental strength, as evidenced by his compeition with chadHomo

[Bleedin Green]

the league does get film on the kid after awhile, plus clemens was a pussy with little mental strength, as evidenced by his compeition with chadHomo

Maybe you're right, but all I know is when I see the same extra trends constantly repeating themselves over and over again amongst completely different sets of players, it begs the question of what all of these things have in common, and it all keeps coming back to the Schitt-head. While hopefully we'll never have to suffer through the possibility of this theory being tested, I truly believe the Jets will truly be incapable of seeing consistent QB play on this team as long as Schotty is the OC. That is unless they somehow fell into one of the few, already established, elite NFL QBs (even then, I would bet anything you would see a performance level from that player diminished from their current level of play). There's simply no evidence that suggests a QB will play at anything but his worst in this offense.

[CTM]

Maybe you're right, but all I know is when I see the same extra trends constantly repeating themselves over and over again amongst completely different sets of players, it begs the question of what all of these things have in common, and it all keeps coming back to the Schitt-head. While hopefully we'll never have to suffer through the possibility of this theory being tested, I truly believe the Jets will truly be incapable of seeing consistent QB play on this team as long as Schotty is the OC. That is unless they somehow fell into one of the few, already established, elite NFL QBs (even then, I would bet anything you would see a performance level from that player diminished from their current level of play). There's simply no evidence that suggests a QB will play at anything but his worst in this offense.

and i'm saying is the biggest thing it has in common is sh*tty and/or injured qb's... that's the most sensible conclusion,imo

[jack48]

Give Rex SOME credit. I think he knows the guy is a dunce.

heknows he is a dunce, but he lets him call the plays? hmmmm.....

[Obrien2Toon]

I prefer a 1 dimensional HC.

there's alot on a HC plate, motivation, time management, etc.

If he was overly involved in both side there would be problems.

Only the few like Belicheck can get away with that.

[Bleedin Green]

and i'm saying is the biggest thing it has in common is sh*tty and/or injured qb's... that's the most sensible conclusion,imo

Injured QBs accounts for, at most, 5 games of one season. So if you want to say that was the bigger problem for those 5 games then sure, why the hell not, that doesn't mean he suddenly didn't suck a$$ as an OC for those 5 games though.

The point isn't the QBs aren't to blame for their own sucktitude, the point is that doesn't make Schotty any less to blame for 6 years of craptacular offense. Especially considering that his QB's performance does fall, at least in part, back on him, particularly when he's had 6 years and 10+ QBs to put something together. I guess the question is whether or not you think quality NFL QBs are just born that way or whether they are developed. I wasn't joking with my earlier comments about Rodgers, I see absolutely no reason to believe he would be anywhere near what he was today if he had been drafted by the Jets. Instead of getting 3 years on the bench behind a top veteran QB he would have been the one thrown into that pile of dog sh*t that was the 2005 Jets instead of Bolly, getting flipped in and out with Vinny while killed behind that OL and then back to rot on the bench once Chad was back in 06, and probably would have pretty much followed a slightly better version of Clemens' career path from there (with more hopeless a$$-kickings behind a sieve of an OL again in 07), although perhaps he would have gotten a more legit chance to start in 09. Not to mention that I have no doubt the coaching and development he went through would have been nowhere near as good as what it was in Green Bay. If you think that Rodgers was destined for greatness regardless of where he played then clearly we just have a completely different fundamental viewpoint on the subject, but it's that view which has me believe that Schotty is in no way blameless for his constant failures to get this team any worthwhile QB play.

[SenorGato]

Rivers, Rodgers and Brees are all coached by guys who are considered some of the best offensive minds in Football. Brady once had Weiss. Manning is man child but some give Moore credit.

Overall, I really just dont get your position...in one breath you defend

Schotty, in other you basically say the OC is obsolete.

Yes, because they get to coach Rivers, Rodgers, and Brees. Who was d-riding Sean Payton before Drew Brees joined him?

Two of those guys were once coached by Schittenheimer, though there's a

long history here that says this doesn't count/matter because something something.

The OC quickly becomes obsolete once the QB is good enough to run the team. Until then he's just there to eat bullets.

[JustInFudge]

Yes, because they get to coach Rivers, Rodgers, and Brees. Who was d-riding Sean Payton before Drew Brees joined him?

Two of those guys were once coached by Schittenheimer, though there's a

long history here that says this doesn't count/matter because something something.

The OC quickly becomes obsolete once the QB is good enough to run the team. Until then he's just there to eat bullets.

So the OC is obsolete if his QB is good. We dont have a good QB and that player isnt improving, but its not the OC's fault.

You're impossible to follow. I'll just stick with you thinking a OC is obsolete...that way I'll avoid these silly little arguments with you defending a guy who's really hasnt earned to stay in the position he's currently in.

[nodimwithere]

I still say there is something wrong with a HC who continually (and purposely) keeps a target on his own team's back.

If Rex could ever learn to keep his trap shut, for everything but eating, his team would be a lot better off.

[SenorGato]

I prefer a 1 dimensional HC.

there's alot on a HC plate, motivation, time management, etc.

If he was overly involved in both side there would be problems.

Only the few like Belicheck can get away with

that.

Yeah who needs greatness from the official figurehead of a team (1/2 of a duo once the QB shows up)?