Edwards, Cotchery, Smith, Woody, Ellis, Richardson, Jenkins, Taylor, Ihedigbo, Gholston, Pryce, Weatherford, Coleman, Lowery.

[GREENBEAN]

I think this was the least succesful offseason we've had in the Tanny era, but that doesn't say much. I was on the other side of the BE, Ellis, B Smith, Cotch, Plax and Lowery moves. I am also not happy with the offense and do not see us beating Miami as a sign that "we're back! "

That being said, we have one of the most gutsy, and succesful GM's in the entire league. Revis, Mangold, Brick, Harris, Keller, etc. The trade for Holmes and Jenkins were great moves for us . (too bad Jenks got hurt but he was dominating)

This years draft is looking pretty good with Kerley and Wilk already contributing and Ellis coming on. I am one of the biggest complainers concerning this year changes, but to say that Tanny should go as I've read in some of these threads is simply ridiculous. it's indicative of the mentality in the NFL these days that everything needs to happen NOW! Fire him! Cut him! etc. I can't say I don't get caught up in it sometimes too, ( PLAX SUCKS!! CUT HIM!! lol) but to call for Tanny's head is crazy.

Do we not remember Bradway???? Steinberg???? We've had it pretty good and long gone are the laughable disrespectable teams of the 80s and 90's

Inside the NFL would show a 20 second clip of the Jets games back then. DOES NO ONE REMEMBER?????? )

[HessStation]

Thanks. And a side note...

What seems to get lost in the fire, is that our front office has signed Revis, Ferguson, Mangold, Holmes, Harris and Cromartie long term dating back to last offseason. Something that some of these critics refuse to acknowledge.

Also... Lets not talk about the past, lets talk about production of this years season...

Plaxico has out performed Edwards.

Kerley has out perfored Cotchery.

McKnight has out performed Smith.

Wilkerson has out performed Ellis.

Maybin has out performed Gholston.

Westerman has out performed Taylor.

Conner has out performed Richardson.

K.Ellis has out performed Jenkins.

Dixon has out performed Pryce.

Wilson has been better for the Jets, than what Coleman has been for Jax.

As crazy as this sounds, but Hunter has out performed Woody.

Correct me where I'm wrong...

whoa whoa whooooa. Plex has outperformed nobody. He's just remained healthy enough to be on the field.

And I'm not sure what's going on with Cotch, is he still injured or just wasting away on the bench. What a HUGE disappointment for me to this day that he left the team by request. I think of all these players the one that this team could still have used is Cotchery.

As far as Hunter well, he's playing better lately so I'll try and temper my opinions and hold out that he continues to put it together, however he will never be close to the player Woody was in his prime (but I know that's not your point here so..)

[Larz]

I don't have a problem with who they let go, I was frustrated they let nnamndsmnmdi string them long for so long while other guys were signing

[HessStation]

I don't have a problem with who they let go, I was frustrated they let nnamndsmnmdi string them long for so long while other guys were signing

I agree, I wonder if they would have landed any different players if not for the whole Aso thing.

[JustInFudge]

As crazy as this sounds, but Hunter has out performed Woody.

Correct me where I'm wrong...

This just isnt the case. Hunter was a bumbling idiot for the first 4 games. He played well in NE for the most part, and he dominated Cam Wake the other night but overall has been poor, piss poor. The way he played last season in place of Woody, I thought he was going to be an upgrade. Woody was far more consistent. Hopefully Hunter keeps improving.

The problem with playing the what if game is that the NFL is so team specific that one mans trash if often another teams treasure. If Ellis was still here (and I agree with their decision to move away) he would play more of a role in NY than he does in NE. The Jets run defense is not good and alot of that is poor play from the rookie. Ellis would probably get those snaps if he was still in Jet green. That doesnt benefit the Jets long term but short term it does. The one position they missed on was WR2. Again I understand why they moved away from BE. He had much different demands to come back here than he had to play in SF, but you can not objectively watch the games and say they do not miss a player like him. Last year Braylon was the Jets big play guy and he cleared out the entire middle of the field for Holmes and Keller. Plax uses his size better than Edwards and was (is?) a better all around talent, but this offense needs a sideline streaker and Plax isnt that. The team may have misjudged the contribution BE made to the passing game and the offense is stagnant because of it.

I'd like to know how we are doing stopping the run between the tackles. Still looks like teams havent been able to do that, but DMC and the Law firm lit us up on the outside. Also consider the RB's they've faced. DMC, MJD, Rice. They've faced some good ones in run first teams. And the law firm got 70% of his yards on that last drive when Rex had extra DB's to stop the pass. The second they switched to their run stop package, they stopped him. Very curious about that.

I'm not going to continue football discourse with you. I disagree man, that's all. I don't hate you. And I certainly don't insult you. Would you rather i just nodded and agreed with everything you post, when i have a different opinion? I'll stop responding if it hurts your feelings to have someone argue football with you. I don't have any hard feelings towards you whatsoever. i just don't agree. i think the whole "tool" thing is incredibly immature on your part. It doesn't solve anything. I've been around a long time and haven't been banned or made any real enemies, simply because i realize discourse and opinion are not the measure of a person. I'd rather state my opinion, crack a joke and move on. Lighten up, please. You are taking me way too seriously regardless of my football opinions. It's more fun to just let it roll off your back, man. We root for a team. That's our connection. beyond that I don't see any reason to belittle you or anyone else. So stop being a douchebag please. thanks in advance. SLM.

I think your Football opinions stink! Especially when it comes to Tanny. Couldnt disagree more with your take on him. But I really really like you.

[THE ILK]

Score one for Queens!

[T0mShane]

Not so much in 2012, but they should be fine in 2013. The point for 2012 was moreso that they need the room from this year to carry over to operate without issue next year. If they make all these little vet signings, like a few million for Ellis and Edwards, 2012 would be a killer year to operate. I think right now the Jets either have the highest cap money allocated to next year in the NFL or very close to the highest allocation. So an added 8 million to carry over is huge. In 2013 guys like Scott and Pace will be off the books with minimal cap implications and at this point Sanchez wont get a big money extension either. The one benefit to the Jets draft picks stinking these last few years is that they wont have a situation like the last one where they had 4 big money free agents basically come due at the same time. I think they are also done with the huge free agent moves at this point. I think the only position where they may jump into it if the right guy is available is at OLB when Pace is gone.

That's pretty grim for next year if they locked themselves into the (more or less) status quo. If things keep trending as they are, particularly with offensive personnel, you'd think think they'd be in need-mode this offseason. Instead, they're mucking around just trying to avoid cap hell for a year? Nasty. Thanks for the perspective.

[villain_the_foe]

We rank #1 against the pass, ahead of the Ravens, with a rating of 62.1 against the pass. We rank #3 in the league with 17 sacks. Only behind the Giants and Eagles. We've only allowed 3 TD's through the air; ranking 1st. We have 9 INT's on the year, ranking 3rd only behind the Bills and Packers. We also rank 2nd, with defensive takeaways.

But yeah, we have "no" pass rush.

Why do you think we're saying "Fire Schotty" and not "Fire Pettine"?

Also, when we say that we have no pass rush we mean our core four guys upfront (the 3 lineman and the designated pass rushing LB). You know how we get sacks? Revis, Cromartie & Wilson. We're getting Coverage Sacks more than anything.

This is why when I see people getting on Cromartie I dont see it as fair. He's not Revis though they continue to expect him to shut down every WR for 10 seconds while we send 8 at the QB (how ever, for the most part he's doing it given that we have these sacks)

We have to send the house practically to get sacks. Granted thats a compliment to our secondary. The problem is that we dont have 3 Darrelle Revis CB's. Maybe if he had a quality pass rushing LB then we could literally have a 4-5 man pass rush and have 6 protecting the air or not over committing in case its a running play that gets pass the blitz (Darren McFadden anyone?).

We have to sacrifice to get sacks, and the ONLY reason why we can do this is because we have the best coverage shutdown CB the NFL has ever seen, a top ten CB opposite him and Wilson...who I must say has man'd up so far this year imo.

But lets be serious here and stop fooling ourselves with these stats that dont tell the whole story. We dont have a pass rush if we have to bring the entire house to get sacks.

[Il Mostro]

I don't have a problem with who they let go, I was frustrated they let nnamndsmnmdi string them long for so long while other guys were signing

This was the biggest whiff in the league this past off-season.

[JetsFanFromQueens]

Ferguson is not a Hall of Famer. Mangold might be. Revis is going to be. Ferguson isnt anywhere near that level. Hes pretty much a decent draft choice considering where he was selected. Hes not thebest and certainly not the worst. He is somewhere in between.

The book has yet to be written on D'Brickashaw Ferguson. All it would take is a Jets super bowl with Sanchez under center, and we're talking future hall of fame potential. A "decent" draft pick? You have got to be kidding me. Ferguson was an excellent draft pick. We landed a true Franchise LT in D'Brickashaw Ferguson. He's a franchise LT who's started each and every game since being drafted into the league back in 2006. A Franchise LT that's not only kept Sanchez alive over the past two years, but has also made consecutive trips to the pro-bowl during 2009 and 2010.

You think our offensive line was awful without Mangold? It would become just as bad, if not worse without Ferguson pass protecting for Sanchez against elite outside pass rushers such as Ware, Freeney, Williams, Harrison, Matthews, Abe, Peppers etc, etc. Ferguson, in less than 6 years, has already distinguished himself as one of the best, if not the best overall pass protecting LT in the game today. And that's why you draft a LT; for elite pass protection. He struggled early on in regards to run blocking, but he's also improved his run blocking ability over the years, and was a big piece to an offensive line and rushing attack that not only led the league in rushing back in 2009, but also broke a franchise record for most rushing yards during a single season. Also finished top 5 in rushing last season. The LT position, outside of the QB position, is the hardest position in all of football to fill with an elite pass protecting LT such as Ferguson.

But its ridiculous to claim that the Jets drafts since Harris have been any good.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Guys like Greene (who will probably be a reserve soon) and Slauson are starters because there is nobody else. Thats different than being a starter based on merit.

In regards to Slauson, you're wrong as wrong could be Jason. Slauson isn't starting because "there is nobody else", Slauson is starting because a) Bill Callahan, one of the best offensive line coaches in all of football, personally recruited Slauson out of high school to play for the university of Nebraska. Not only did Callahan recruit him to Nebraska, but he also coached him there. We developed Slauson (and he's still developing) during 2009, where he played 3 games at the guard and center position. Bill Callahan made sure the Jets drafted this kid, and for good reason. As a first year starter last year, Slauson was part of an offensive line that ranked top 5 in rushing. He's only 25 years of age, and has the talent/potential to become a strong road grader for many of years to come. He's not starting because "there is nothing else." He's starting at LG because Bill Callahan drafted him to do so.

In regards to Shonn Greene... He only put up 293 rushing attempts during his first two years, but then again, he was rushing behind proven veterans such as Thomas Jones and L.T. Greene was a huge reason why the Jets broke a franchise record for most rushing yards during a single season back in 09. He was also a big piece to the puzzle in regards to the Jets ranking top 5 last year. Kind of hard to consider Greene a future "reserve" during the first year he's been our feature back behind a struggling offensive line. During his first two years he put up 1306 yards as a backup, with an average of 4.45 yards per carry. During the playoffs, he played outstanding football. During 6 career playoff games, he's put up 99 rushes for 502 yards and 3 TD's An average of 5.07 yards per carry during postseason play. Yup, you're right Jason, Tanny's draft's haven't been any good since 2007; and Shonn Greene is nothing more than a "future reserve back", as a talent that just turned 26 in August. What are you basing this off, in regards to Shonn Greene? What, 6 weeks into the season? Nice to know Jason.

Sanchez hasnt been great.

Sanchez hasn't been great? Well, who expected a developing QB, with only 1 year of college starting experience coming out of college, to be quote on quote "great"? Lets stop with all this "great" talk in regards to Mark Sanchez. Especially considering the fact that he's yet to complete his 3rd season as an NFL pro. Tanny drafted a potential franchise QB in Mark Sanchez, one who we can build our team around, one who's already put up a QB rating of 82.3 (and climbing) during his 3rd year. A QB that's been to the AFC Championship game during his first two seasons in the league, and only ranks behind QB's such as Aaron Rodgers, Bart Starr, Kurt Warner, Drew Brees and Joe Montana with a playoff QB rating of 95.6. He's gone 95/157, 1,155 yards, 9 TD's/3 INT's with a completion percantage of 60.5% during 6 career playoff games, all on the road, against teams and quarterbacks such as Palmer and the Bengals, Rivers and the Chargers, Manning and the Colts, Manning and the Colts during a rematch, Brady and the Patriots and Roethlisberger and the Steelers. He's gone 4-2. Sorry if none of this hasn't been good enough for you. Yeah, your correct once again Jason... Our draft's haven't been good since 2007.

Keller has underperformed.

You're wrong. Keller has "underperformed"? That's news to me. Tanny drafted the Nation's #1 ranked pass catching TE in Keller back in 2008. He's lived up to that hype as well. There wasn't a TE drafted during 2008's draft, that has put up more receptions, yardage or TD's than Keller himself. We needed a pass catching TE, and we walked away with the Country's most talented pass catching tight end. Keller hasn't even completed his 4th year in the league, and he's put up 169 receptions, 2,063 yards and 12 TD's. He's also put up 26 receptions, 302 yards and 3 TD's during 6 career postseason games. He led the Jets in receptions last year. He ranked 2nd in 2009 in receptions, only behind Cotchery. He also ranked 3rd in receptions as a rookie behind Coles and Cotchery back in 2008. He's the #1 ranked player on our team this year with 21 receptions. Please, explain how Keller has "underperformed" Jason. Is it because in 2009 he played inside an offense with a rookie QB, on a team that led the league in rushing attempts and ranked dead last in pass attempts? Is it because we ranked top 5 in rushing attempts last season? I don't get it. Keller has been an excellent draft selection and has became one of the most productive pass catching TE's around.

Wilson is a 4th or 3rd corner.

Umm... He's only a 2nd year player. Have you seen Wilson play this season? He hasn't been a dime back (4th), he's actually been one of the best nickel backs (3rd) in the game today. Kyle Wilson is a huge reason why we're ranked as the leagues #1 pass defense. How many times have you seen slot WR's dominate our defense? Not against Kyle Wilson you haven't. So, I guess it's Tanny's fault that Wilson, as a 2nd year player, has only become a strong Nickel back and hasn't been able to start over Revis and Cromartie? Not sure what your logic in regards to Wilson is.

The Jets have not hit a double, let alone a home run, since the Harris selection in 2007.

Keep telling yourself this Jason, but I'm not one to buy it. I actually read between the lines. You also forget to mention players such as Jeremy Kerley, who seems to be a natural slot WR as a rookie. Joe McKnight as a 2nd year talent, who leads the league in kick returns as an explosive talent. Wilkerson looks to be a pure 3-4 defensive end, a player who Rex has started since day one. K.Ellis performed very well, for a rookie making his first apperance at the NT position.

Gholston stunk.

Fair enough. Gholston did bust. Outside of McFadden, Gholston was known as the Nations most explosive talent. Tanny and the entire Country was wrong. On the flip side, Tanny just landed us the 11th overall pick of the 2009 draft in Maybin, who already has two sacks and leads the league with 3 forced fumbles. I'll say the free agent addition has replaced the bust of Gholston for the time being.

[ZachEY]

What do you do when you're not writing Homeric Posts?

That's a double entendre. Good luck.

[#27TheDominator]

Guys like Greene (who will probably be a reserve soon) and Slauson are starters because there is nobody else. Thats different than being a starter based on merit.

This is the only part I really disagree with. Slauson sure. Ducasse has been pretty bad and looked awful at guard. Greene on the other hand was certainly given his job on merit. He may have remained as a starter because "there is nobody else", but I think that LT constitutes something and they have been fairly even production-wise. The Jets moved on from Thomas Jones because of Greene. It may have been a mistake, but he certainly showed something.

That's pretty grim for next year if they locked themselves into the (more or less) status quo. If things keep trending as they are, particularly with offensive personnel, you'd think think they'd be in need-mode this offseason. Instead, they're mucking around just trying to avoid cap hell for a year? Nasty. Thanks for the perspective.

I don't agree. More or less status quo means in terms of big splashy moves. They have all the big splash they need. What Jason is talking about with being able to "operate without issue" for 2012 is making sure that we are okay at RT and any other position of dire need. We probably won't be able to make a run at another guy like Aso, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

[Darth Vader]

Ferguson is not a Hall of Famer. Mangold might be. Revis is going to be. Ferguson isnt anywhere near that level. Hes pretty much a decent draft choice considering where he was selected. Hes not thebest and certainly not the worst. He is somewhere in between. But its ridiculous to claim that the Jets drafts since Harris have been any good. Guys like Greene (who will probably be a reserve soon) and Slauson are starters because there is nobody else. Thats different than being a starter based on merit. Gholston stunk. Sanchez hasnt been great. Keller has underperformed. Wilson is a 4th or 3rd corner. The Jets have not hit a double, let alone a home run, since the Harris selection in 2007.

comparing the HOF canon of LT and OC is also apples and oranges though. The standards to be measured up to that level are much higher, more competitive at LT than at OC.

Now I'm one to think that Brick is at least as good as Mangold in terms of playing their position per se. Brick has not had his best year this year, with a couple of mental errors, as well as playing Ware, but he has almost completely shut down the blind side for years now, going against the leagues premier pass rushers. There was one or two guys who bizzarily were built different and were able to solve brick once in a while but he has accomplished what he was brought in to do.

Mangold is a great player also. He was brought in primarily as a bulwark against Vince Wilfork abd the vaunted NE ILBs when they had Bruschi and that ilk. I can't say he's dominated that matchup, nor am I willing to say Vince Wilfork is a HOF either... Moreover the thing about Mangold as I watch him play more and more....he's a different type of player, but at this point, Mawae was probably the better Jet center. I mean Mawae - who is clearly HOF caliber - could do things that only the most nimble OGs could do.

In terms of Revis - he is a once in a generation player, both a gifted athlete and committed technician. He's nowhere near GOAT, but he's probably top 5-8 ALL TIME right now at his position.

That 07 draft was special though...trade up for Revis and Harris. Devito UDFA.

The 08 draft was miss way high, but also nabbed us Keller, who has been good, but as inconsistent as Sanchez - and often misused by the CS, and Lowery, and Woodhead (which must be mentioned even if bc of what he has become). Also we got Jenkins for a third.

09 - It is hard to argue that sanchez was a bad pick given his accomplishments early on. He is already beating the odds given he was a junior coming out and greene would be tremendous if he was used properly. Slauson starts, and is not great but he's not absolute sh*t either. notable UDFA - Westerman. see braylon edwards below.

10 - Wilson has shown incredible improvement and would be starting for many teams. At this point, it might be argued that the overall defense results might be better if Wilson was starting opposite Revis. That was an excellent draft pick considering NE/Brady. He is only going to get better. Ducasse sucks, but has not had a full offseason conditioning program. he was a project from the outset and remains so. But I'll say he sucks until proven otherwise. The FO used up all mulligans available with Gholston. The Jets traded their 5th rounder and bunch of no-ones for Braylon Edwards, whom they got to use in 09. They got Connor in the 5th round - a starter...McKnight in the 4th..who is already blowing the doors off of STs and just may find himself in the probowl bc of it. and what's more..he is now working into the starting lineup in base offense - I am willing to bet that McKnight becomes the feature back by next year and splits carries with Greene, who will revert to closer. Also, don't forget a 2010 draft pick was used to secure Lito Sheppard.

In short, the Jet's FO in recent drafts can't be measured against the 07 draft which includes a top 10 All-Time player. But the drafts have been extremely successful especially when you look at them contextually - by that i mean who was drafted where, and who else was available, etc. Typical case being Kyle Wilson vs. McCourty.

The Jets are still able to find starters and contributors in places that for other franchises would be no-man's land. We act like Sanchez is Kellen Clemens pt 2, but the fact is, despite his sucky body-language, and typical bad game, he IS IMPROVING, while already being a proven commodity in the clutch. That despite lots of moving pieces on offense, and inept OL, and dumbfounded playcalling.

[JetsFanFromQueens]

Great all around post Darth Vader.

[Jetsfan80]

Great all around post Darth Vader.

tl;dr

[T0mShane]

Number of posts before JetsFanFromQueens convinces himself that Matt Slauson is a future Hall of Famer: 276

[villain_the_foe]

Number of posts before JetsFanFromQueens convinces himself that Matt Slauson is a future Hall of Famer: 276

Exactly. In one breath he talks about how praised Slauson was coming out of high school to Nebraska, then to the Jets, how Hunter has outperformed Woody in just 6 games, then turns around and mentions how Greene isnt producing behind this "struggling" offensive line. Check out his words.

Kind of hard to consider Greene a future "reserve" during the first year he's been our feature back behind a struggling offensive line.

Thought these guys were "outperforming". Which one is it?

Whats worse is how he talks about how the new guys are producing more than our old guys yet he puts up the stats himself from the prior years when the old guys were here......PRODUCING.

During his (Greene) first two years he put up 1306 yards as a backup, with an average of 4.45 yards per carry. During the playoffs, he played outstanding football. During 6 career playoff games, he's put up 99 rushes for 502 yards and 3 TD's An average of 5.07 yards per carry during postseason play.

an offensive line and rushing attack that not only led the league in rushing back in 2009, but also broke a franchise record for most rushing yards during a single season.

Before the end of this thread we'll hear how Ducasse is the greatest lineman the Jets have ever drafted only second to the impeccable Slauson who has been sought after since high school, and how we need to appreciate the new guys on this "struggling" offensive line who cant protect Sanchez or create lanes for the run, though are producing more than our old guys lol. Ridiculous.

[Aten]

Guys like Greene (who will probably be a reserve soon) and Slauson are starters because there is nobody else. Thats different than being a starter based on merit.

It's still some kind of merit. Getting a two-year starter on the offensive line for a sixth round pick, even if it's just for lack of somebody better, is basically a home run by Tannenbaum's standards. I don't necessarily agree that Ferguson and Mangold aren't any better than befits their draft status, but certainly the surplus value isn't big. Even with Revis you're paying for most of what you get. There's no bang for the buck on this roster, and filling a hole with Slauson instead of Faneca is at least a step in the right direction in terms of fixing that.

[stoicsentry]

Revis will be in the hall of fame, #1 at his position.

Harris is essential to this team.

Keller has been a playmaker.

Mangold will be in the hall of fame, #1 at his position.

D'Brick is a top 5 LT.

Slauson was an excellent value pick.

Wilson is looking solid.

McKnight is making plays on 3 sides of the ball.

Wilkerson is starting in his rookie season.

Holmes was a great value pick in the 5th round.

Cromartie has been hit or miss, like most corners, but he's a starter on almost any team.

Sanchez is our franchise QB.

Kerley looks like a good value pick as well.

I don't know what to make of Conner, and you've had a major bust (Gholston), a guy that hasn't fulfilled his potential (Greene) and a big disappointment (Ducasse), but that's a nice list right there.

[Il Mostro]

What do you do when you're not writing Homeric Posts?

That's a double entendre. Good luck.

Triple entendre -- from what I can tell there is more than a little Simpson DNA swimming in the gene pool.

[JetsFanFromQueens]

Revis will be in the hall of fame, #1 at his position.

Harris is essential to this team.

Keller has been a playmaker.

Mangold will be in the hall of fame, #1 at his position.

D'Brick is a top 5 LT.

Slauson was an excellent value pick.

Wilson is looking solid.

McKnight is making plays on 3 sides of the ball.

Wilkerson is starting in his rookie season.

Holmes was a great value pick in the 5th round.

Cromartie has been hit or miss, like most corners, but he's a starter on almost any team.

Sanchez is our franchise QB.

Kerley looks like a good value pick as well.

I don't know what to make of Conner, and you've had a major bust (Gholston), a guy that hasn't fulfilled his potential (Greene) and a big disappointment (Ducasse), but that's a nice list right there.

Excellent post.

Add that with free agents such as Tomlinson, Pace, Scott and Folk (who's been great)... And there isn't a better GM in the game today.

Lets not forget about guys such as Thomas Jones, Leon, Brad Smith, Edwards, Favre, Woody, Richardson and Kris Jenkins either... All guys that Tanny brought to the Jets. These same fans who cry that Tanny couldn't keep all of these players, are the same fans who forgot which GM was responsible for their arrival to begin with.

Tanny.

[jason423]

It's still some kind of merit. Getting a two-year starter on the offensive line for a sixth round pick, even if it's just for lack of somebody better, is basically a home run by Tannenbaum's standards. I don't necessarily agree that Ferguson and Mangold aren't any better than befits their draft status, but certainly the surplus value isn't big. Even with Revis you're paying for most of what you get. There's no bang for the buck on this roster, and filling a hole with Slauson instead of Faneca is at least a step in the right direction in terms of fixing that.

The bang for the buck this is exactly why the Jets had the nice little run from 08-10 and are struggling a bit right now. The big reason they could do what they did is because the nucleus of the team- the guys like Ferguson, Revis, Harris and Mangold plus guys later on like Holmes and Edwards---were playing for peanuts because they were still on draft contracts. Under the old system it was key to hit homers at the top of the draft because they were all relatively cheap for what they gave you and it allowed you to sign players like Faneca, Woody, and Scott to maximize the roster. The issue now is that all those play for peanuts guys are on big money deals for the next few years and the Jets have failed to replace them with other good draft talent, so its puts them in a position where they are kind of stuck.

If Kyle Wilson and Vernon Gholston had worked out they would be at cap charges of around 8 -9 million combined these next two years. You would eliminate Cromartie, who is going to be at 8 million next year, and Pace would probably have been toast too(though he is having a good season) as would his 7 million dollar cap charger. Thats 6 million in savings just by drafting well. Even if Wilson is decent the damage is done because the Jets are locked in on Cro.

[jason423]

On Ferguson here is why he is not a standout draft pick. From 1990 through 2009 there were 27 tackles taken. You probably have 11 that are considered superior talent. You have 18 or so that are considered long term starters in the league(Ferguson included). So its an average performance for Brick. He falls in that tier. Hes not in the top tier and probably wont be. Hes like Jordan Gross. If you look at just top 5 tackles taken you get 8 out of 13 (Brick included) that are Pro Bowlers. You get 5 All Pros (Brick not included). There is basically no way to make any kind of leap that he overshot expectations. Just because Mike Williams and Robert Gallery were terrible doesnt make Brick a superstar pick. They were just totally against the norms for players with those grades. Ferguson is exactly what the average projection is for a tackle that you take in the top 5/10.

The sample size for Mangold is smaller but hes clearly the best center drafted and even if you include interior linemen Hutchinson and Faneca are the only two he has to surpass. Revis there is no question or analysis needed.

Keller? Ehh. You are waiting for something. more than what he has given so far. Maybe he will get there. Some guys take time. But he hasnt had a breakout year to match these guys drafted in the 1st. Im not even sure if he has had a year as statistically productive as Johnny Mitchell who was considered a major flop even when he was playing and before he just gave up on the NFL. The Jets expected more. They expected a guy that would be able to split wide and not force them to make the move for big WRs. They ended up having to do just that.

[jason423]

This is the only part I really disagree with. Slauson sure. Ducasse has been pretty bad and looked awful at guard. Greene on the other hand was certainly given his job on merit. He may have remained as a starter because "there is nobody else", but I think that LT constitutes something and they have been fairly even production-wise. The Jets moved on from Thomas Jones because of Greene. It may have been a mistake, but he certainly showed something.

Remember Greene got benched in year 1 as a starter because he wasnt productive. The Jets decided that LT began to wear down late in the year so he would be replaced by Greene. Greene didnt win any job. He got it by default. LT will end up as starter again by week 9 or 10. Jones I think the Jets moved away from because of a contract moreso than production. He wanted 6 million or thereabouts to play in 2010 and 2011 and I think the team felt it was too much to invest on a player who really only took off once the Jets spent a fortune on linemen. Seeing how the Jets draft RBs they clearly just think they can plug anyone back there.

[ZachEY]

Too funny. Now Tannenbaum is the best GM in the game today.

It's amazing that the best GM in the game has never even made it to the Super Bowl.

I bet the Steelers, Colts, Giants, Saints, and Packers are all wishing that since 2006, when the best GM in the game showed up, that they'd have made a move to get him first.

[RutgersJetFan]

The bang for the buck this is exactly why the Jets had the nice little run from 08-10 and are struggling a bit right now.

This. And I think it's the number one variable that anyone should be considering when you're trying to figure out just how well Tannenbaum's drafted over the past several years.

[Darth Vader]

The bang for the buck this is exactly why the Jets had the nice little run from 08-10 and are struggling a bit right now. The big reason they could do what they did is because the nucleus of the team- the guys like Ferguson, Revis, Harris and Mangold plus guys later on like Holmes and Edwards---were playing for peanuts because they were still on draft contracts. Under the old system it was key to hit homers at the top of the draft because they were all relatively cheap for what they gave you and it allowed you to sign players like Faneca, Woody, and Scott to maximize the roster. The issue now is that all those play for peanuts guys are on big money deals for the next few years and the Jets have failed to replace them with other good draft talent, so its puts them in a position where they are kind of stuck.

I really am not buying this argument as a universal, altho I do believe u that the issue of contracts does parlay into it.

The Jets have had major injuries to both sides where the POA occurs - Mangold, Turner, BT.

The Jets have gotten extremely substandard play out of their safeties - in fact the defense has never been able to replace Kerry Rhodes - and their WRs including Keller.

The Jets have made judicious decisions on contracts such as Leon Washington, Thomas Jones, Braylon Edwards, Hartstock. Some of these decisions had nothing to do with the payroll.

The Jets have money to spend....but are sitting on it.

The Jets have picked up cheap cast-off talent that has paid dividends (Maybin, LT).

The Jets are getting tremendous bang for the buck from the DL Devito, Pouha, Dixon, Wilkerson, MTV, Ellis, Pito.

If Kyle Wilson and Vernon Gholston had worked out they would be at cap charges of around 8 -9 million combined these next two years. You would eliminate Cromartie, who is going to be at 8 million next year, and Pace would probably have been toast too(though he is having a good season) as would his 7 million dollar cap charger. Thats 6 million in savings just by drafting well. Even if Wilson is decent the damage is done because the Jets are locked in on Cro.

one thing u are neglecting here is that Rex is going against the grain by the premium he places on CB talent on his roster. IMO Cromartie and Wilson are exclusive events. They do not share in the same event outcome.

On the one hand, Rex is aiming for a super duo - knowing that there is a multiplier effect in having a marginal - (second) - super-CB.

This is superior strategy and logic on his part - and also explains our flirtation with Aso. That the personnel hasn't parleyed into on-field success is a separate story. It is actually a MAJOR failing of his tenure.

The other event is the drafting of Wilson, who was not only the BPA at his slot, but is becoming quite a decent defender in this league, and at this point is the #2 CB that came out of that draft...and where he was drafted, superior value. Wilson is capable of starting on the outside, but is forced to play nickel bc nickel is a premium position in Rex's scheme. Additionally, playing on the outside would have acccelerated his success bc that was the position he was used to in college - playing the slot is a challenge to any LCB's (#1 CB) ingrained instincts - who is used to being able to used the sideline as second defender.

[Darth Vader]

On Ferguson here is why he is not a standout draft pick. From 1990 through 2009 there were 27 tackles taken. You probably have 11 that are considered superior talent. You have 18 or so that are considered long term starters in the league(Ferguson included). So its an average performance for Brick. He falls in that tier. Hes not in the top tier and probably wont be. Hes like Jordan Gross. If you look at just top 5 tackles taken you get 8 out of 13 (Brick included) that are Pro Bowlers. You get 5 All Pros (Brick not included). There is basically no way to make any kind of leap that he overshot expectations. Just because Mike Williams and Robert Gallery were terrible doesnt make Brick a superstar pick. They were just totally against the norms for players with those grades. Ferguson is exactly what the average projection is for a tackle that you take in the top 5/10.

your argument on Brick requires a lot more scrutiny.

The sample size for Mangold is smaller but hes clearly the best center drafted and even if you include interior linemen Hutchinson and Faneca are the only two he has to surpass. Revis there is no question or analysis needed.

Mangold has a long way to go to touch Faneca or Hutchinson...I think that Jets fans way overrate Mangold. I'd like to know how Mangold is better than Mawae.

There is a reason why the sample size is smaller for OCs. They aren't drafted high bc they don't have to be.

Keller? Ehh. You are waiting for something. more than what he has given so far. Maybe he will get there. Some guys take time. But he hasnt had a breakout year to match these guys drafted in the 1st. Im not even sure if he has had a year as statistically productive as Johnny Mitchell who was considered a major flop even when he was playing and before he just gave up on the NFL. The Jets expected more. They expected a guy that would be able to split wide and not force them to make the move for big WRs. They ended up having to do just that.

I agree on keller, but i also believe that his lack of blast-off is due to a confusion of offensive philosophy. there are waaaay too many mouths to feed.

[jason423]

your argument on Brick requires a lot more scrutiny.

Mangold has a long way to go to touch Faneca or Hutchinson...I think that Jets fans way overrate Mangold. I'd like to know how Mangold is better than Mawae.

There is a reason why the sample size is smaller for OCs. They aren't drafted high bc they don't have to be.

I agree on keller, but i also believe that his lack of blast-off is due to a confusion of offensive philosophy. there are waaaay too many mouths to feed.

Here are the players drafted top 5 at Tackle:

Jason Smith- Bust

Jake Long- 3PB, 1AP

Joe Thomas- 4PB, 2 AP

Levi Brown- Starter

D'Brickashaw Ferguson- 2PB

Robert Gallery- Bust as T

Mike Williams- Bust

Leonard Davis- 3PB(as Guard)

Chris Samuels- 6PB

Orlando Pace- 7PB, 3 AP

Jon Ogden- 11PB, 4AP

Tony Boselli- 5PB, 3AP

The expectation for the position is super high. The bust potential is super low (its exactly opposite for a WR). I dont see how someone can objectively look at what Brick has accomplished and say that he was a home run in terms of positional value. Too many others were much better. Hed probably rank 7 out of 12. Thats not bad its just not a home run hit.

As for Mangold hes at a position where it would have been a stunner if he couldnt play. I do think there is an argument to make that drafting a center so high is not worth it, but I think thats a different argument. Mawae might be better. They do different things. Mangold is much more physical and holds up against players like Hampton and Wilfork who would eat Mawae up. Mawae was better in terms of getting to that next level and clearing guys out. It let the Jets attack the edges alot more with Martin than the Jets have been able to do with Jones and LT because they dont have the personnel to get two guys pulling and out there knocking guys down. Id say Mawae was more durable as I rarely remember him missing games(other than 2005) or even plays whereas Nick seems to get his bell rung from time to time and needs to come out for a few plays. But I dont think Mawae necessarily being better (and he also belongs in the HOF) means Mangold is a bad pick. If you look at all centers drafted since 1990 the only ones better would probably be Mawae and Matt Birk. Tom Nalen had a pretty good career too. Thats good company to be in.

[stoicsentry]

Too funny. Now Tannenbaum is the best GM in the game today.

It's amazing that the best GM in the game has never even made it to the Super Bowl.

I bet the Steelers, Colts, Giants, Saints, and Packers are all wishing that since 2006, when the best GM in the game showed up, that they'd have made a move to get him first.

If we're going to judge a GM on anything, it would seem that his team's performance on the field is the fairest indicator of his success.

If success in the NFL is measured by proximity to winning a Superbowl, then Tannenbaum is either the 3rd or the 5th best in the NFL over the past two years. (Depending whether you value the consistency of 2 straight championship game appearances over getting to the big game just once.)

No reason... zero... to be negative about anyone in the NFL who is the 3rd-5th best at what they do.

The criticism thusfar has all been baseless speculation about the future or imparting the SOJ mentality on a franchise that has risen above that. 25+ teams in the NFL would love to have Tannenbaum as their GM right now. Only thing that matters is WINNING.

[ZachEY]

If we're going to judge a GM on anything, it would seem that his team's performance on the field is the fairest indicator of his success.

If success in the NFL is measured by proximity to winning a Superbowl, then Tannenbaum is either the 3rd or the 5th best in the NFL over the past two years. (Depending whether you value the consistency of 2 straight championship game appearances over getting to the big game just once.)

No reason... zero... to be negative about anyone in the NFL who is the 3rd-5th best at what they do.

The criticism thusfar has all been baseless speculation about the future or imparting the SOJ mentality on a franchise that has risen above that. 25+ teams in the NFL would love to have Tannenbaum as their GM right now. Only thing that matters is WINNING.

Ah, yes. This season doesn't matter.

Only AFC Championship losses from previous years do. Got it.

[stoicsentry]

Ah, yes. This season doesn't matter.

Only AFC Championship losses from previous years do. Got it.

This conversation is a JOKE. Including this year, Tanny is about 10 games over .500 in the past 3 years with back to back AFC championship appearances. No GM gets fired for that.

Correction, no team that ever wants to win a Superbowl fires a GM for that.

[ZachEY]

This conversation is a JOKE. Including this year, Tanny is about 10 games over .500 in the past 3 years with back to back AFC championship appearances. No GM gets fired for that.

Correction, no team that ever wants to win a Superbowl fires a GM for that.

I guess I have to reread my posts to see where I said Tannenbaum should be fired.

I think mostly was commenting about the "best GM in the business" lunacy.

But, you're probably right, I probably made the exact argument you find easier to argue against, rather than one that's completely true and can't really be debated.

[stoicsentry]

I guess I have to reread my posts to see where I said Tannenbaum should be fired.

I think mostly was commenting about the "best GM in the business" lunacy.

But, you're probably right, I probably made the exact argument you find easier to argue against, rather than one that's completely true and can't really be debated.

No offense but there are so many pitiful arguments around here, it's hard to keep track. We have a thread about firing him, this one is relatively similar with the exception that JFFQ started it with good intentions, so we now have 2 Tanny bashing threads.. wow.

[ZachEY]

No offense but there are so many pitiful arguments around here, it's hard to keep track. We have a thread about firing him, this one is relatively similar with the exception that JFFQ started it with good intentions, so we now have 2 Tanny bashing threads.. wow.

Tanny shouldn't exactly be lauded either. The drafting as of late has left a lot to be desired. This team was incredibly overrated coming into this season and is basically built on a house of cards. You're seeing that now in the results.

And aligning yourself with JFFQ is pretty much always the wrong move. The thread itself is based on a faulty premise that a former player wouldn't have helped the Jets, because they're not as important to their current team as they were to us.