JohnnyHector Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Careful Scott, you are treading into the area of disagreeing with the football genius hierarchy here. Stop trying to hypothesize why he's struggling and just go with "he sucks balls" and needs to be cut immediately or else! Well, my hypothesis is that he has an undiagnosed gluten intolerance, which is known to cause stunted growth and failure to thrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Careful Scott, you are treading into the area of disagreeing with the football genius hierarchy here. Stop trying to hypothesize why he's struggling and just go with "he sucks balls" and needs to be cut immediately or else! Plus they hate the Jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE ILK Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I still believe in Mark Sanchez single handedly increasing fig sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I think that we as fans are setting the bar a little high right now. He has improved since last season. He's improved pretty much on a consistent overall basis over his career. He's not up to his potential yet, and he has a long way to go, but so long as he keeps showing signs of improving you have to stick with him. He's extremely young still. Also, while he obviously has made some boneheaded throws, his OC calls a horrible game and the whole offensive concept is disjointed at best. If you ask me, I think Mark is at the point where he mentally understands what is going on before and during the play. He is reading he D, but it's still going too fast for him at times and he hesitates to pull the trigger and gets tentative. I think that's why alot of his passes are behind the receiver. You can also see in his demeanor that he's frustrated. He was always excitable on the field until this season. I think it was mostly "ignorant bliss", where he didn't really know what he was missing and was just having a blast. Now I think he knows the plays he is missing, and he's frustrated that he's not seeing it in time. The game still needs to slow down for him a bit. Agree totally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 He looked stupid yesterday. Give the kid some slack....he is not the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Agree totally Oh boy, get ready to get blasted by the football geniuses here. You and I obviously do not know anything at all about football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Give the kid some slack....he is not the problem. If you mean he is not the only problem, I agree. He is the #1 problem, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Apparently what I'm saying is going right over your heads. Before the play I think he can see the D, understands what he sees, and knows what the offensive play is designed to do to get a receiver open (ie clear out a safety with an underneath receiver, etc...). I think that once the ball is snapped he is hesitating because he doesn't trust that the play is actually going to work out the way it should and I think he's waiting too long to get rid of the ball. The kid is smart and he is obviously studious of his responsibilities as he demonstrated throughout the offseason, I just think the game is still moving too fast for him and I think he's getting frustrated with himself because he knows what he should do but is still not reacting to it in real time. I will say I miss the days here when it was cooler to actually have sensible discussion instead of who can come up with a more witty one-line response. Man, I just disagree. I dont think he's reading the D well at all. I could point to numerous plays this season where he just completely blew an easy read, didnt make the proper protection adjustment, or just outright missed an obvious blitz. The truth is and to me its pretty obvious - he's having a very hard time with teams that do a good job of disguising zone w/ man coverage which results in the majority of his picks. He has trouble with soft zones. Thats all pre-snap reads and making the proper adjustment...which he just doesnt do well. I just dont see how you could say someone that struggles with accuracy and turnovers is reading a D well. Watching Brady vs. us was eye opening for me on this board. People were saying Brady didnt light us up. He played a picture perfect 2nd half and it was 90% because of what he did prior to the snap. The fact that people didnt realize it or take it into account while assessing his play really shed a lot of light on peoples opinion of the QB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyHector Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Oh boy, get ready to get blasted by the football geniuses here. You and I obviously do not know anything at all about football. Between this message board pouting and Sanchez giving Rex the silent treatment, I'm not sure which is the more embarrassing behavior for a grown man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Yeah, the problem is if you/we look at things objectively things look different. And the reason is the FO made some decisions on the Oline and the offense in general that has hurt Sanchez and his development (you can see it in the kids eyes for crying out loud)...If I look at the Jets subjectively, yeah its all gloom and doom because you/we can knick pick the hell out of this team, but in the end all that matters is a WIN. Could the coaching be better (i.e. the 8 man blitz against Denver???--I got hammered a bit with saying that was a bonehead call in that particular situation against Tebow)..yes the coaching can always be better. Can the Oline finally come together...absolutely. Can the defense play better...yes it can. Subjectively and mix in the negativity...no hope for this team. But that's just not true, we are 6-5 with 5 games left. The reality is if we as Jets fans believe Rex and his statements that "we are MUCH better", then we can prove it in the next 5 games by running the table and going to the playoffs...wait a minute is that subjective too??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Man, I just disagree. I dont think he's reading the D well at all. I could point to numerous plays this season where he just completely blew an easy read, didnt make the proper protection adjustment, or just outright missed an obvious blitz. The truth is and to me its pretty obvious - he's having a very hard time with teams that do a good job of disguising zone w/ man coverage which results in the majority of his picks. He has trouble with soft zones. Thats all pre-snap reads and making the proper adjustment...which he just doesnt do well. I just dont see how you could say someone that struggles with accuracy and turnovers is reading a D well. Watching Brady vs. us was eye opening for me on this board. People were saying Brady didnt light us up. He played a picture perfect 2nd half and it was 90% because of what he did prior to the snap. The fact that people didnt realize it or take it into account while assessing his play really shed a lot of light on peoples opinion of the QB position. Hey, look at this, someone who can actually have a differing opinion and express it through intelligent discussion. Thanks Jif, fair points made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Man, I just disagree. I dont think he's reading the D well at all. I could point to numerous plays this season where he just completely blew an easy read, didnt make the proper protection adjustment, or just outright missed an obvious blitz. The truth is and to me its pretty obvious - he's having a very hard time with teams that do a good job of disguising zone w/ man coverage which results in the majority of his picks. He has trouble with soft zones. Thats all pre-snap reads and making the proper adjustment...which he just doesnt do well. I just dont see how you could say someone that struggles with accuracy and turnovers is reading a D well. Watching Brady vs. us was eye opening for me on this board. People were saying Brady didnt light us up. He played a picture perfect 2nd half and it was 90% because of what he did prior to the snap. The fact that people didnt realize it or take it into account while assessing his play really shed a lot of light on peoples opinion of the QB position. Good point on Brady, but if you look at how WE beat Brady last year, vs. how we played against them this year, the biggest problem is we did not get in his face at all. And When Brady sensed what the D was about to do, he picked the LB's apart. The truth is Brady is a one in a million QB along with Peyton. And we beat both of them last year by blizting both gaps and then coming in on the edges....we just did not do it this year because they were ready for it (hence our coaching can get better, because their coaching made the required adjustments). Sanchez is constantly pressured and yes can he do a better job in reads and then going through his progressions yes absolutely. But and there is a but, and objectively speaking, we are still in a position to make a run and we still have a chance to improve week in and week out. The reality is the talking about how "GREAT" we are now needs to materialize on the field, in the next 5 games. Will we step up to the challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 It may just be as simple as that. He seems to be a smart kid, his arm strength is enough...he does look little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 If you mean he is not the only problem, I agree. He is the #1 problem, though. So I guess you don't like the kid at all? I also had my doubts, however, he is under a lot of pressure (go back and look at not only the games we lost but a few of the ones we won) and look at it this way, if he does finish strong in these next 5 games, will you bet against him in the playoffs? I wouldn;t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Good point on Brady, but if you look at how WE beat Brady last year, vs. how we played against them this year, the biggest problem is we did not get in his face at all. And When Brady sensed what the D was about to do, he picked the LB's apart. The truth is Brady is a one in a million QB along with Peyton. And we beat both of them last year by blizting both gaps and then coming in on the edges....we just did not do it this year because they were ready for it (hence our coaching can get better, because their coaching made the required adjustments). Sanchez is constantly pressured and yes can he do a better job in reads and then going through his progressions yes absolutely. But and there is a but, and objectively speaking, we are still in a position to make a run and we still have a chance to improve week in and week out. The reality is the talking about how "GREAT" we are now needs to materialize on the field, in the next 5 games. Will we step up to the challenge? See but thats my point...Brady was able to recognize when we were in coverage, when we were in zone, or when we were showing blitz and where. He made every single right adjustment. Whether it was running when we were playing 2 deep safeties with extra DB's, bringing max protect when we were blitzing and sending Gronk right to the area we blitzed because Smith was covering him or calling quick plays when he noticed we were out of sorts...its just something to see that Mark just cant do. I understand we're comparing him to an all time great, but I'm just emphasizing how important a good pre-snap read is and how poorly I believe Mark is in this area. He does not exploit the weakness of a D whether that weakness is talent or scheme. Is part of that on coaching...sure...but he's had ample amount of time to develop those skills and its not happening. Its a very valid cause for concern that I believe plays a huge factor in the pathetic nature of our offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 See but thats my point...Brady was able to recognize when we were in coverage, when we were in zone, or when we were showing blitz and where. He made every single right adjustment. Whether it was running when we were playing 2 deep safeties with extra DB's, bringing max protect when we were blitzing and sending Gronk right to the area we blitzed because Smith was covering him or calling quick plays when he noticed we were out of sorts...its just something to see that Mark just cant do. I understand we're comparing him to an all time great, but I'm just emphasizing how important a good pre-snap read is and how poorly I believe Mark is in this area. He does not exploit the weakness of a D whether that weakness is talent or scheme. Is part of that on coaching...sure...but he's had ample amount of time to develop those skills and its not happening. Its a very valid cause for concern that I believe plays a huge factor in the pathetic nature of our offense. He also doesn't have a 6'6 beast running down the middle of the field that can adjust his body in the air and come down with errant passes. He has Dustin Keller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 See but thats my point...Brady was able to recognize when we were in coverage, when we were in zone, or when we were showing blitz and where. He made every single right adjustment. Whether it was running when we were playing 2 deep safeties with extra DB's, bringing max protect when we were blitzing and sending Gronk right to the area we blitzed because Smith was covering him or calling quick plays when he noticed we were out of sorts...its just something to see that Mark just cant do. I understand we're comparing him to an all time great, but I'm just emphasizing how important a good pre-snap read is and how poorly I believe Mark is in this area. He does not exploit the weakness of a D whether that weakness is talent or scheme. Is part of that on coaching...sure...but he's had ample amount of time to develop those skills and its not happening. Its a very valid cause for concern that I believe plays a huge factor in the pathetic nature of our offense. I get exactly what your saying believe me...but here is the big difference...he is in his third year. If he had a full slew of games (at least 2 seasons in college), and then did what he is doing now, then I would agree with you 100%. But he only played 16 games in small ball. Like it or not he is still cutting his teeth and trust me I know its painful at times to watch, cause it is, but he still has both the ability and capability to to better and become a true QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 He also doesn't have a 6'6 beast running down the middle of the field that can adjust his body in the air and come down with errant passes. He has Dustin Keller. I dunno...Keller made a very nice grab on Sunday on a errant pass from Sanchez. And so did Plax...I believe they are both 6'6. BTW - this response has nothing to do with my post which emphasizes the importance of a pre-snap reads/adjustments. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I dunno...Keller made a very nice grab on Sunday on a errant pass from Sanchez. And so did Plax...I believe they are both 6'6. BTW - this response has nothing to do with my post which emphasizes the importance of a pre-snap reads/adjustments. lol Keller is awful. But anyways- your point is that Sanchez is too stupid to make pre snap reads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMC Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 See but thats my point...Brady was able to recognize when we were in coverage, when we were in zone, or when we were showing blitz and where. He made every single right adjustment. Whether it was running when we were playing 2 deep safeties with extra DB's, bringing max protect when we were blitzing and sending Gronk right to the area we blitzed because Smith was covering him or calling quick plays when he noticed we were out of sorts...its just something to see that Mark just cant do. I understand we're comparing him to an all time great, but I'm just emphasizing how important a good pre-snap read is and how poorly I believe Mark is in this area. He does not exploit the weakness of a D whether that weakness is talent or scheme. Is part of that on coaching...sure...but he's had ample amount of time to develop those skills and its not happening. Its a very valid cause for concern that I believe plays a huge factor in the pathetic nature of our offense. Excellent points in this and your earlier post, Jif. Like when Brady saw the D mistake with Ocho Cinco and threw it immediately. Brady saw that in a nanosecond. Sanchez is having a hard time reading certain Ds pre-snap like you said, as well as going through his progressions, and finally on his precision. It's much more than just accuracy. He's way off on throws which he shouldn't be way off on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 See but thats my point...Brady was able to recognize when we were in coverage, when we were in zone, or when we were showing blitz and where. He made every single right adjustment. Whether it was running when we were playing 2 deep safeties with extra DB's, bringing max protect when we were blitzing and sending Gronk right to the area we blitzed because Smith was covering him or calling quick plays when he noticed we were out of sorts...its just something to see that Mark just cant do. I understand we're comparing him to an all time great, but I'm just emphasizing how important a good pre-snap read is and how poorly I believe Mark is in this area. He does not exploit the weakness of a D whether that weakness is talent or scheme. Is part of that on coaching...sure...but he's had ample amount of time to develop those skills and its not happening. Its a very valid cause for concern that I believe plays a huge factor in the pathetic nature of our offense. Recognizing zones vs coverage should not be a big problem and the coaching staff can help with that-Put a man in motion once in a while. That does not seem to be the problem. With Brady, it was not that hard to figure out where to throw-They would flank out 3 wr's on one side and we would cover with 2 db's. That does not talke a genius. That happened about 5 times, and they got probably 120 yards on those plays alone. ' Sanchez seems to have a problem from snap to release. he can't account for all the players and their depth. That is a BIG problem. He has gone from staring down one receiver, and only throwing if that WR has single coverage, or dump, to progressing through reads, but not seeing the field beyond the wr's. Not sure if that is something you grow into or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I get exactly what your saying believe me...but here is the big difference...he is in his third year. If he had a full slew of games (at least 2 seasons in college), and then did what he is doing now, then I would agree with you 100%. But he only played 16 games in small ball. Like it or not he is still cutting his teeth and trust me I know its painful at times to watch, cause it is, but he still has both the ability and capability to to better and become a true QB. He's played, what 45 NFL games including 6 in the playoffs? When is enough time to have "learned" these things. And trust me, I realize he's young an inexperienced. That was the major reason that I wanted nothing to do with him. That, and never facing any adversity at USC (never playing from behind and winning, etc) which surprisingly is his biggest asset. Weird. Keller is awful. But anyways- your point is that Sanchez is too stupid to make pre snap reads? I bet Brady could make him look great. And I dont know if he's too stupid, but he doesnt do it. I dont have the answers...just telling you what I see. Recognizing zones vs coverage should not be a big problem and the coaching staff can help with that-Put a man in motion once in a while. That does not seem to be the problem. With Brady, it was not that hard to figure out where to throw-They would flank out 3 wr's on one side and we would cover with 2 db's. That does not talke a genius. That happened about 5 times, and they got probably 120 yards on those plays alone. ' Sanchez seems to have a problem from snap to release. he can't account for all the players and their depth. That is a BIG problem. He has gone from staring down one receiver, and only throwing if that WR has single coverage, or dump, to progressing through reads, but not seeing the field beyond the wr's. Not sure if that is something you grow into or not. Oh no, he certainly does have a problem recognizing the defense. There is no doubt about it, other wise, you wouldnt be giving up 40+ pts to opposing D's via fumbles and the infamous pick 6. That is 90% of him not knowing where to go with the ball. The mere fact that you are even telling me he cant see the field through his progressions, only supports my theory because if he's not able to roll through the progressions then he's locking onto the wrong receiver, which he determines pre snap. Thats not a mystery. He still stares down receivers and clearly knows where he's going before the snap. When you then consider his inaccuracy and turnovers, its only natural to say that he's not seeing it prior to the snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 He's played, what 45 NFL games including 6 in the playoffs? When is enough time to have "learned" these things. And trust me, I realize he's young an inexperienced. That was the major reason that I wanted nothing to do with him. That, and never facing any adversity at USC (never playing from behind and winning, etc) which surprisingly is his biggest asset. Weird. I bet Brady could make him look great. And I dont know if he's too stupid, but he doesnt do it. I dont have the answers...just telling you what I see. Oh no, he certainly does have a problem recognizing the defense. There is no doubt about it, other wise, you wouldnt be giving up 40+ pts to opposing D's via fumbles and the infamous pick 6. That is 90% of him not knowing where to go with the ball. The mere fact that you are even telling me he cant see the field through his progressions, only supports my theory because if he's not able to roll through the progressions then he's locking onto the wrong receiver, which he determines pre snap. Thats not a mystery. He still stares down receivers and clearly knows where he's going before the snap. When you then consider his inaccuracy and turnovers, its only natural to say that he's not seeing it prior to the snap. If he is having trouble reading man vs zone, the coaches can simplify that for him. Put a man in motion-it will tell him much more then. It is not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 If he is having trouble reading man vs zone, the coaches can simplify that for him. Put a man in motion-it will tell him much more then. It is not that hard. Exactly...hence my statement about the coaching needs to get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 If he is having trouble reading man vs zone, the coaches can simplify that for him. Put a man in motion-it will tell him much more then. It is not that hard. Exactly...hence my statement about the coaching needs to get better. Have you guys watched Schotty's offense? He does more shifts and motions than possibly any other OC in the league. Doesnt make it any easier for Snchz. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Have you guys watched Schotty's offense? He does more shifts and motions than possibly any other OC in the league. Doesnt make it any easier for Snchz. lol See now we are coming to the root of the problem, yes there are some shifts, and yes there are motions in play...the problem is the oppossing D, knows because "they have adjusted". Which means the shifts and motions that worked for Sanchez and our O last year is not this year, and the main reason is that our running game has taken a back seat to an attempted pass-oriented O, and Sanchez is in no way shape or form ready to be "that" QB. Is that his fault or is it the scheme? I just can't see pulling the plug on Sanchez...yet. And escpecially with his playoff record, he has earned just a little more respect than normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 See now we are coming to the root of the problem, yes there are some shifts, and yes there are motions in play...the problem is the oppossing D, knows because "they have adjusted". Which means the shifts and motions that worked for Sanchez and our O last year is not this year, and the main reason is that our running game has taken a back seat to an attempted pass-oriented O, and Sanchez is in no way shape or form ready to be "that" QB. Is that his fault or is it the scheme? I just can't see pulling the plug on Sanchez...yet. And escpecially with his playoff record, he has earned just a little more respect than normal. There are 2 reasons why I'm not ready to give up on Sanchez, eventhough I really dont have a ton of confidence in him and that is his ability to step it up in big games/situations but probably most importantly, I dont see a better option presenting itself in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 There are 2 reasons why I'm not ready to give up on Sanchez, eventhough I really dont have a ton of confidence in him and that is his ability to step it up in big games/situations but probably most importantly, I dont see a better option presenting itself in the near future. Say what you want about his skills, the man has a way of coming up big in big spots(playoff games, late drives). That is not such an easily acquired trait. Now, can he master the "thinking" of the position? Don't know. The skills, seem to be enough. heart? check skills? subtle check game reads? minus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet27 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 There are 2 reasons why I'm not ready to give up on Sanchez, eventhough I really dont have a ton of confidence in him and that is his ability to step it up in big games/situations but probably most importantly, I dont see a better option presenting itself in the near future. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Say what you want about his skills, the man has a way of coming up big in big spots(playoff games, late drives). That is not such an easily acquired trait. Now, can he master the "thinking" of the position? Don't know. The skills, seem to be enough. heart? check skills? subtle check game reads? minus Agreed...see my post above this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larz Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 yesterday I kept going back in forth in my mind, horrible throw, horrible call, horrible read, horrible call, horrible throw, TD ! weird game maybe they are just an oil/water mix ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Agreed...see my post above this one. As far as option 2...Aaron Murray 2013, duh. If Sanchez is *really* a bad QB, then we'll be picking in a convenient spot for Murray (either early in the first, doubtful, or properly very early in the 2nd). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boozer76 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 This is why I have hope: Year 2: 2002 San Diego Chargers 16 16 320 526 60.8 3,284 6.2 17 16 24 180 76.9 38 130 3.4 1 2 0 Year 3: 2003 San Diego Chargers 11 11 205 356 57.6 2,108 5.9 11 15 21 178 67.5 21 84 4.0 0 5 3 Year 4: 2004 San Diego Chargers 15 15 262 400 65.5 3,159 7.9 27 7 18 131 104.8 53 85 1.6 2 7 2 This guy would have been run right the hell out of town if he were drafted by the Jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicious89x Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Track record. If Mike Martz for example was our O.C. that wouldnt be a question. /Looks at Alex smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 /Looks at Alex smith Thats valid, but lets not forget Kurt Warner, Mark Bulger, Jon Kitna, Jay Cutler as examples as well. Dude gets it right 4 out of 5 times? I cant hate on that. How many QB's have Schotty coordinated just in NY? How many times have he gotten it right?... Exactly. My point being is that Martz track record shows a system that complements quarterbacks and statistics provide the proof in the pudding. Look at Schotty's track record and see if we can say the same. here's a link about Martz if you're interested. Happy Holidays brother. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/611062-jay-cutler-is-latest-beneficiary-of-the-mike-martz-effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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