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When I went to the game here last year it was pretty terrible. If we'd extended Holmes before that we'd have lost for sure because he was the only one who was even trying at that point. Cotchery (the gimp play notwithstanding) and Edwards had just plain given up and it was Haynesworth-rolling-around-on-the-ground obvious. Now Holmes and Plax are dogging it. I don't know how we're supposed to get receivers to lay out for this guy when they know full well that if it takes longer than a second and a half for the ball to come out it's going the other way anyway.

I remember that thread and have no doubt it was/is true. Let me rephrase. The WRs haven't played up to snuff because of some combination of the following: a. they're dogs who won't play hard for Sanchez; b. they're dogs who won't play hard for Schottenheimer; c. they're dogs who wouldn't play hard for anybody; d. Sanchez's incompetence; e. Schottenheimer's incompetence. My point is that it's sort of immaterial, because regardless of where that wheel lands, the offense is pretty much boned for the foreseeable future.

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One is working in a system where WR routes are well-designed. The other is working in Brian Schottenheimer's system.

Good. I would hate to think Sanchez throwing accuracy of trying to pee with a boner has any ill effect on the play of his wideouts.

Right.......Because Santonio is constantly running around the field uncovered. As mentioned above, the Giants receivers run precise routes and their plays are designed to fool the D and get WR's open

Victor Cruz: 55 catches, 957 yards, 7 TDs in 2 starts.

Santonio Holmes: 37 catches, 494 yards, 5 TDs in 11 starts.

Couldn't believe it when I looked it up last night. Whose fault is this?

I blame you. I didn't know about this until you posted it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Eli's 3rd year WR #'s

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/2006.htm

81 Amani Toomer 32 WR 8 8 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.1 32 360 11.3 3 44 4.0 45.0 360 3

Jeremy Shockey* 26 TE 15 15 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 66 623 9.4 7 25 4.4 41.5 623 7 0

17 Plaxico Burress 29 WR 15 15 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 63 988 15.7 10 55 4.2 65.9 988 10 2

84 Tim Carter 27 wr 16 8 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 22 253 11.5 2 27 1.4 15.8 253 2 1

Edited by Matt39
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Costas ripped Holmes and showed some tape of him when he made that catch in the SB. When they were rushing up the field on the previous play Santonio was celebrating his catch and he almost cost his team the SB, he is a dumb mother****er. He cries every game that he does not get calls yet he drops the ball in front of refs while they are asking him for it so they can spot the ball for the next play. In some instances you can see the refs get frustrated with him as he taunts them by fropping the ball right in front of their face. The guy is a freakin moron and he is a selfish bitch on top of that. By him acting this way he hurts the team because I guarantee hes not getting calls . If hes this DUMB out in the open I wonder how dumb he is learning the offense. Does not surprise me one bit when he runs an out and Sanchez throws an in. Its dumb ****s like Holmes who have all the talent in the world and have no earthly idea how to use it other than to tease us with a great play now and then. Santonio does not suck because of his talent level he sucks because he has no brains. People wonder why this a$$hole was traded for a 5th round pick and its because the steelers probably got sick of his stupidity and playoff caliber teams worry about stupid plays in the playoffs because the season can end on stupidity we saw some of that stupidity from Holmes and we will continue too. Smart move by the Steelers IMO.

Edited by Smashmouth
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Eli's 3rd year WR #'s

http://www.pro-footb...ms/nyg/2006.htm

81 Amani Toomer 32 WR 8 8 1 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 0.1 32 360 11.3 3 44 4.0 45.0 360 3

Jeremy Shockey* 26 TE 15 15 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 66 623 9.4 7 25 4.4 41.5 623 7 0

17 Plaxico Burress 29 WR 15 15 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 63 988 15.7 10 55 4.2 65.9 988 10 2

84 Tim Carter 27 wr 16 8 0 0 0 0 0.0 0.0 22 253 11.5 2 27 1.4 15.8 253 2 1

But wait Matt I thought Plax had Hall of Fame numbers under ELI ?

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I remember that thread and have no doubt it was/is true. Let me rephrase. The WRs haven't played up to snuff because of some combination of the following: a. they're dogs who won't play hard for Sanchez; b. they're dogs who won't play hard for Schottenheimer; c. they're dogs who wouldn't play hard for anybody; d. Sanchez's incompetence; e. Schottenheimer's incompetence. My point is that it's sort of immaterial, because regardless of where that wheel lands, the offense is pretty much boned for the foreseeable future.

you shouldn't back down so easily, it's impossible to follow everything, even at the game..

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So just did a little of what they call "searched the Google":

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/fair-criticism-for-kevin-gilbride/

http://giantskickoff.com/2011/11/15/kevin-gilbrides-conservative-predictable-play-calling-hurts-new-york-giants/

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/01/defending-the-giants-coordinators/

Gilbride, like all these guys, have had their "route designs" questioned too. Gilbride's was a pretty big deal here in NYC when his big, fancy, complex passing game coming in and messing with the Groundz and Poundz the Giants were famous for right before Los Yets were.

There's so many of these...

You know how Jets were so proud that they got a facebook page of Schottenheimer up a whole 5+ seasons in?

http://www.steelernation.com/forums/showthread.php/415-The-Official-quot-Bruce-Arians-Sucks-quot-Thread

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/94171-boot-bruce-arians-and-the-pittsburgh-steelers-will-be-unstoppable

Future Savior candidates even getting hit:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-11-28/norv-turner-taking-heat-over-questionable-play-calling

http://boltbeat.com/2011/11/12/top-10-reasons-to-fire-norv-turner/

3. Lackluster play calling. Okay, let’s not sugarcoat it. Turners play calling is about as exciting as a trip to the dentist. I look forward to it with about the same anxiety. He has no understanding of a run or pass offense and needs to go back to football 101.

Gary Kubiak is an awesome offensive coach but:

http://gridironfans.com/forums/latest-nfl-headlines/147890-texans-coach-gary-kubiak-defends-his-play.html

He dares!

Obviously there's the Payton back in the day stuff...

Reid and Mornhinweg catch crap all the time...Mornhinweg from the Eagles' defensive coordinator:

http://ology.com/sports/marty-mornhinweg-terrible-playcaller/11282011

Some interesting stuff for this interesting point I insist on making.

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Holmes got paid. He's mailing it in because that's the kind of person he is. Plax tries hard in the red zone, but he's creaky and isn't going to take big shots between the 20's. He still needs one last payday. Cotchery and Braylon had more heart and they gave the extra effort which saved more than a few drives. They're gone. Kerley is mid-round talent playing at mid-level production. A guy like Cruz needs this game and needs to make an impact so he busts his a$$. We don't have that attitude in our recieveing staff. Anywhere.

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Holmes + Plaxico >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cotchery + Braylon

Holmes is a deep threat, and a better one than Edwards at that. The problem is the guy throwing him the ball isn't as good a QB as he is a WR. Plus, he might be dogging it because the offense is catered towards protecting the Sanchize.

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Holmes + Plaxico >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cotchery + Braylon

Holmes is a deep threat, and a better one than Edwards at that. The problem is the guy throwing him the ball isn't as good a QB as he is a WR. Plus, he might be dogging it because the offense is catered towards protecting the Sanchize.

Their respective Jets careers could not possibly more greatly contradict that. Considering the difference can't be because of the QB, since it's the same guy throwing to both of them, and he's certainly a better player now than he was in his rookie year, what's the excuse for that?

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Their respective Jets careers could not possibly more greatly contradict that. Considering the difference can't be because of the QB, since it's the same guy throwing to both of them, and he's certainly a better player now than he was in his rookie year, what's the excuse for that?

Fortunately, both have played with more teams than the Jets.

Edwards going deep is old school...straight line, I'm tall, hit me. That's his whole repertoire of routes for going deep. Holmes can curl, he's way better at making more than one move, he works the intermediate game better...**** that noise.

Oh and of course the QB has nothing to do with it...Yuch....it "can't be" simply because he's better in year 3 than year 1? What? Unless you're 6'3 or really obviously open Sanchez isn't all that great with the deep ball...luckily they have the PI thing too, which the Jets have taken advantage of.

Edited by SenorGato
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Fortunately, both have played with more teams than the Jets.

Edwards going deep is old school...straight line, I'm tall, hit me. That's his whole repertoire of routes for going deep. Holmes can curl, he's way better at making more than one move, he works the intermediate game better...**** that noise.

Oh and of course the QB has nothing to do with it...Yuch....it "can't be" simply because he's better in year 3 than year 1? What? Unless you're 6'3 or really obviously open Sanchez isn't all that great with the deep ball...luckily they have the PI thing too, which the Jets have taken advantage of.

You're right, they have played with other teams, but during only one season (Holmes' second) was there any shred of evidence that suggests he might be a better deep threat. I don't dispute that there are plenty of things he does better than Edwards, I just don't see where he's clearly the better deep threat. As far as the excuses about it being Sanchez's fault, I'm not sure how Edwards getting "really obviously open" more often than Holmes doesn't support him being the better deep threat. So really your excuse for why, when playing with the same QB, Holmes has been significantly out-performed in the deep game by Edwards is height? But of course, Edwards successfully using his height advantage doesn't make him a better deep threat. Ok then. I'll give you credit, at least you're consistent with your football analysis, you never let what happens on the field have any influence whatsoever on your opinions.

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You're right, they have played with other teams, but during only one season (Holmes' second) was there any shred of evidence that suggests he might be a better deep threat. I don't dispute that there are plenty of things he does better than Edwards, I just don't see where he's clearly the better deep threat. As far as the excuses about it being Sanchez's fault, I'm not sure how Edwards getting "really obviously open" more often than Holmes doesn't support him being the better deep threat. So really your excuse for why, when playing with the same QB, Holmes has been significantly out-performed in the deep game by Edwards is height? But of course, Edwards successfully using his height advantage doesn't make him a better deep threat. Ok then. I'll give you credit, at least you're consistent with your football analysis, you never let what happens on the field have any influence whatsoever on your opinions.

If Edwards was a consistently better deep threat than Holmes then he'd be here. He's not. The only thing that makes him a deep threat is that he's tall and he's fast. That's why the ONLY route he ran as a Jet to go deep was in a straight line. So yes, what made him a better deep threat here was his height/speed combo combined with a "pick your spot" strategy. Holmes doesn't need all that crap, he needs a QB who can get him the ball when he's down there. He's got more ways of beating you deep, and long term that will pay off waaaaaaaay more than Edwards' schtick. That's why he's a better deep threat, plain and simple. So sure, I'm not really running on stats here so maybe you have something there, but practically speaking Edwards is a one trick pony who isn't even GREAT at that trick.

Edited by SenorGato
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Braylon Edwards quit all the ducking time. His lazy slant routes were as painful as it gets. Don't let his strong playoffs last year cloud your memory.

Oh, Edwards was certainly far from perfect, but the same is true for Holmes. The point is that once again some think certain Jets need to take absolutely no responsibility for their own failures and there's always an excuse why it's someone elses fault. It's apparently all Sanchez's fault that Holmes has provided absolutely nothing as a deep threat even though Braylon never seemed to have that problem while here, despite allegedly being a far inferior deep receiver. Something just doesn't seem to add up in all of this.

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Oh, Edwards was certainly far from perfect, but the same is true for Holmes. The point is that once again some think certain Jets need to take absolutely no responsibility for their own failures and there's always an excuse why it's someone elses fault. It's apparently all Sanchez's fault that Holmes has provided absolutely nothing as a deep threat even though Braylon never seemed to have that problem while here, despite allegedly being a far inferior deep receiver. Something just doesn't seem to add up in all of this.

One thing to keep in mind is the Jets totally abandoned the deep ball early in the season because deep routes just cant develop when you cant protect the QB. I expect we will see more deep balls from here on in since we seem to be getting backs more involved in the passing game which will make defenses play more honest. Either way I still do not see Holmes as a deep threat nor a consistent WR.

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Well thats in my sig now so no need to post it :) It should just be assumed its part of the deal. Although The last 2 games we have mixed it up quite well and Im not sure how much of that is MOORE influence.

I wonder what Gato thinks?
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One thing to keep in mind is the Jets totally abandoned the deep ball early in the season because deep routes just cant develop when you cant protect the QB. I expect we will see more deep balls from here on in since we seem to be getting backs more involved in the passing game which will make defenses play more honest. Either way I still do not see Holmes as a deep threat nor a consistent WR.

We still haven't though, and that's what's perplexing. Last week, for example, Sanchez threw over 20 yards only twice (both incomplete). Granted, he only played 3 quarters and some of that time we were just better off running the football and getting out of Dodge with our enormous lead. But, you didn't see much of the deep game the week before either.

Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone can assert that Holmes is a better deep threat than Edwards. How many catches has he made this year that are 30 yards or more downfield? Maybe 1? When Edwards had a whole bunch of them last year. They took a shot to him almost every game, and many of them worked. It wasn't just about his height, either... he was breaking coverage far better than Holmes does.

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Oh, Edwards was certainly far from perfect, but the same is true for Holmes. The point is that once again some think certain Jets need to take absolutely no responsibility for their own failures and there's always an excuse why it's someone elses fault. It's apparently all Sanchez's fault that Holmes has provided absolutely nothing as a deep threat even though Braylon never seemed to have that problem while here, despite allegedly being a far inferior deep receiver. Something just doesn't seem to add up in all of this.

For the record, I don't think Braylon was a far inferior deep receiver, but I do think he is significantly inferior overall. As smash pointed out they have cut down on the deep throws because of protection problems.

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We still haven't though, and that's what's perplexing. Last week, for example, Sanchez threw over 20 yards only twice (both incomplete). Granted, he only played 3 quarters and some of that time we were just better off running the football and getting out of Dodge with our enormous lead. But, you didn't see much of the deep game the week before either.

Honestly at this point I don't know how anyone can assert that Holmes is a better deep threat than Edwards. How many catches has he made this year that are 30 yards or more downfield? Maybe 1? When Edwards had a whole bunch of them last year. They took a shot to him almost every game, and many of them worked. It wasn't just about his height, either... he was breaking coverage far better than Holmes does.

Well the offense has changed the last few weeks and teams will have to adjust to it which should open up the deep ball. What we werew doing last week with Greene was working so well there really was no need to challenge deep IMO

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Well thats in my sig now so no need to post it :) It should just be assumed its part of the deal. Although The last 2 games we have mixed it up quite well and Im not sure how much of that is MOORE influence.

The addition of the screen passes give me hope.

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Not FAR inferior, but inferior (and by that I mean not varied) enough to matter. Sorry, but Edwards was pretty clumsy (albeit improved) when asked to do more than run in a straight line here, and he's not a great enough deep threat to give a big contract to. He's BASICALLY Donte Stallworth to an offense...Fast enough and not terrible enough to attract year to year suitors...not smart or versatile enough to get a commitment from anyone.

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They prove 2 things

1. Sanchez throws a very good deep ball contrary to your opinion

2. We lost our deep threat when we let Braylon go.

Except both are kind of bullsh*t....Well the first one I can buy...He can get a spiral and good air under a pass when he does it right...That said, a few highlight clips doesn't prove anything.

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