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Sanchez's problems are correctable.


BroadwayJ667

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3rd person to say this, I've explained it, stop skimming.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? How many teams have won a SB in the last 20, hell even 30 years without an elite QB? 2 maybe 3?

Going back to 1985, because thats when I started following football

Jim McMahon

Phil Simms

Doug Williams

Mark Rypien

Jeff Hostetler

Trent Dilfer

Brad Johnson

What do they all have in common, a GREAT, defense, and outside of TB (and you could dispute this with Dunn, and Alstot) a GREAT running game.

Rex had his 2 year window for this, the combo blow up in his face, by inconsistent defense in the AFC championship games, now our running game is mediocre, and the Qb hasn't caught up. Now comes the crossroads for Rex does he want to keep trying to win with the run game defense formula, or see if his QB can carry him, we will never find out if Mark can carry us without unleashing him for more than 3 or 4 games, it needs to be done over the whole year, and live with his struggles until he figures it out, or you can say with the correct amount of games, I would say 2 seasons he is not capable of being this type of QB.

Some QB's like Big Ben were brought up slowly, basically being told to manage the game, for a year or 2, but then he was unleashed by Arians, and Tomlin, and he struggled that season to a 7-8 record, but it payed off in 2008 to the tune of another SB victory. Aaron Rodgers was unleashed from the start and he struggled mightly in the 08 season with flashes of brilliance, but they kept letting him sling it, and the rest speaks for itself. Hell even Tom Brady was asked to just oversee the Offense and play smart his first few years, and then he was unleashed.

I guess my conclusion of my ramble is we will never fully find out Mark's potential without unleashing him, and letting him be the guy. It might blow up, or it could be oh so sweet, the question is does Rex want to hitch his wagon to him and risk his job if he falls flat on his face, I think the awnser is no, unless they win a SB first then Rex will have job security and can afford a bad year or two.

Edited by Lupz27
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Exactly why I said early in the year the Jets should mix in the no huddle to give the offense a bit of a spark from time to time.

Not to mention take away the disgusting predictability of the O, by changing play callers, even if just for a series or 2 it could keep the D a little more honest.

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On the WR front having a dominant WR does nothing to help team success. What it does it give a mediocre QB a great bailout target that makes the guy look better than he really is. Holmes is a good player but he isnt dominant the way a Randy Moss was or Calvin Johnson is. Those guys made their QBs escape certain types of scrutiny because bad throws turn into highlight reel plays. The problem sometimes with having those players is that it can actually develop bad habits. Daunte Culpepper never found a way to win an important game against a quality team. Every flaw was exposed. The same thing is probably happening to Matt Stafford. Maybe its even happened with Philip Rivers. Id say its also a bit of an issue with Matt Ryan. I think more QBs can learn to be great by having lesser receivers to throw to. Tom Brady benefited from it. Id say Ben Roethlisberger benefited from it. To some extent so did Eli, though Plax was brought in to be a bailout guy to help him with the fans.

I think some of Sanchez' problems have nothing to do with the WR but more to do with being stuck in the college mentality in his approach to the game. In college schools like USC are so dominant that a player doesnt have to think. Its basically a pitch and catch game. Guys run open by 10 yards and you lob the ball to them. Its rare that you are throwing before they are open or gunning the ball in between two defenders. Sometimes I think Sanchez is still there. He waits for a guy to get open rather than just trusting him to get open. Sometimes he sees someone that looks open not realizing its basically a trap situation where the player has been released and defenders are sitting in his lanes. There are QBs that I dont think can ever overcome that.

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Going back to 1985, because thats when I started following football

Jim McMahon

Phil Simms

Doug Williams

Mark Rypien

Jeff Hostetler

Trent Dilfer

Brad Johnson

None since 2004, when the rules were drastically changed to favor passing

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None since 2004, when the rules were drastically changed to favor passing

I actually disagree, but in a weird way. I believe the Ben Roethilsberger of 2005 belongs in this category, even thou the Ben of 2008, and today does not if that makes sense. The Steelers won that SB despite him, they had a great D and a great running game.

Edited by Lupz27
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We have discussed 2 QB's Pennington and Sanchez and in both cases the talent they had was SH!T . You keep claiming other players did better on other teams and I think your refering to Coles who went to the Skins and put up similar numbers to what he did here and Moss who had a damn good year here and one really good year with the Skins 2 years after he left the Jets. Your points are FLAWED not mine got any more players you would like to bring up in your little arguement ?

I refer to Moss, who put up ok numbers here, and went on to be a probowler, and a game changer when he got away from Pennington. There's no flaw in that. It's simply the way it is.

Now, I refer to Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burress, both of whom have grabbed Super Bowl winning TDs in the very recent history, one of which was the Super Bowl MVP and led the league in YPC.

There's enough talent on the offensive side of the ball that a mediocre QB would have us at least in the top 20! I say that because there are teams with less talent doing much more, solely because of better QB play. I say that because the talent on our team has done it with other QBs.

Sanchez is below average. All measurables say so, except of course your hopes and dreams.

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A lot. QB play in the NFL sucks overall and there has been a ton of injury.

Like I've been saying, if your not the Packers, Patriots, Saints or Steelers, you're praying that your team is great and your QB is good enough to get you a ring.

....Disagree. QB Play has gone up tremendously.

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I refer to Moss, who put up ok numbers here, and went on to be a probowler, and a game changer when he got away from Pennington. There's no flaw in that. It's simply the way it is.

Now, I refer to Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burress, both of whom have grabbed Super Bowl winning TDs in the very recent history, one of which was the Super Bowl MVP and led the league in YPC.

There's enough talent on the offensive side of the ball that a mediocre QB would have us at least in the top 20! I say that because there are teams with less talent doing much more, solely because of better QB play. I say that because the talent on our team has done it with other QBs.

Sanchez is below average. All measurables say so, except of course your hopes and dreams.

EY I would understand your points on Burress and Holmes if Burress was not 35 and did not have limited time left and Holmes has had one really good year and the rest are just ordinary. So one out of his 4 years with another QB was above average or on par with a very good season, not and elite season.

If the guy is such a great receiver he would be targeted more by Sanchez and probably catch more balls. Hes not tall, so if hes drawing a lot of double teams (which I suspect he is), it makes it that much harder to go up and catch a ball in traffic..... that and many times he exibits alligator arms by refusing to extend for balls in the field of play with Safeties prowling, this is what keeps him from being the elite receiver many people think he is on these forums. if Im a QB and see Holmes Doubled a lot Im not targeting him because hes not that type of Receiver hes just not big enough or strong enough and when you see him pull his arms in as much as he does that worries me as well. He wants the ball in open field so he can use his best attributes speed and elusiveness but we are not putting him in that position so maybe once again this is Shotty and Im being too hard on Holmes simply because were not using him correctly.

Teams jump a lot of his routes knowing they have help up top, and thats not his fault, but the Jets really have no one who is a threat deep so there is always help up top with no worries at all. This limits the QB. It could be Holmes is being used wrong and is put into to many situations where hes not getting to the open area on the field and exploiting weaknesses in the defense. If this is the case and Santonio is the YAC demon you say he is, then we need to get him in shorter patterns and more slants in other words more one on one situations.

This is a big reason why Sanchez cant attack down field and its because we do not scare defenses . I think at times Sanchez tries to push the issue and this gets him in trouble (throwing into coverage) but for the most part he has to check down. You add this in with the fact he gets a lot of pressure and its makes it that much more difficult. Now does Shotty adjust to these issues ? Does he shorten routes ? NO . To many times during the game you see Sanchez flushed from the pocket and when the camera pans downfield the receivers still have their backs to the QB which means they are still in their patterns. Thats not good and thats what pushes Sanchez out . Shotty has been critisized about this and he has made adjustments in the past only to revert back.

I think our problem is 2 fold 1. our WR's are missing a key element in a Deep threat. and 2. our OC is not adjusting to anything the defense is throwing at him. And this is JUST from the WR perspective and does not include Pass protection and the weak running game we have exibited for most of the season.

Our running game is not the dominant force it once was and even when it is dominant our OC abandons it for no logical reason (New England Game comes to mind) and this just compounds the problem. You can disagree all you like but I feel this makes a QB's job extremely difficult and I think Sanchez has handled it well since his Ints are relatively low .

Bottom line is the Jets have multiple problems and yes the QB is part of that equasion but I cant put full blame on the QB until this offense becomes more balanced and fills some serious holes. Deep threat WR, 2 Solid O-lineman to replace Hunter and move him to back up where he belongs and probably Slauson as well, Blocking TE thats not an idiot, And a dynamic RB . Other teams have all of these positions covered Im not sure why we cant unless we look at poorly spent money. We have alot of Money tied up in Old LB's that might be a good place to start because paying rookies would be a hell of alot less and let Rex coach em up. Im not asking for superstars just the right personnel moves to fill holes.

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....Disagree. QB Play has gone up tremendously.

Disagree. I was actually going to start a thread on this...I think its awful.

Problem is the top end is so damn good it masks how low the overall play in the NFL actually is. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben - all HOF QB's playing in the same era. The rest of the league is mediocre at best to horrible. Considering all the rule changes, it should be significantly better across the board and its not, yet only these guys are truly taking advantage of it.

Its a good discussion and one I might bring up in its own thread. Might be a nice break from the norm though I'm sure it will turn into another Sanchez discussion.

Edited by JiF
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Disagree. I was actually going to start a thread on this...I think its awful.

Problem is the top end is so damn good it masks how low the overall play in the NFL actually is. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben - all HOF QB's playing in the same era. The rest of the league is mediocre at best to horrible. Considering all the rule changes, it should be significantly better across the board and its not, yet only these guys are truly taking advantage of it.

Its a good discussion and one I might bring up in its own thread. Might be a nice break from the norm though I'm sure it will turn into another Sanchez discussion.

Is this a threat?

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Fully aware that this topic is going to spiral into a Sanchez sucks vs, Sanchez will be awesome thread, I am going to write my observations anyway.

After rewatching the Jets games this season I am convinced Sanchez will be a very good quarterback, but there are things that he must work on. Many of the passes that sail on his receivers are a result of sloppy footwork. The pass he threw to Plaxico in the first quarter of the Skins game sailed a tad high, because after the pump he had already planted his feet. If he had taken his front foot and driven through it with the ball, the pass would have been on target and likely a TD. Again later in the game this same scenario played out on a pass towards Keller along the sideline. The result was the same, a pass over the targets reach. This has been the one of the more consistent problems he has had this year.

When he sets his feet or uses proper technique the passes are consistently in a spot where the receiver can make a play.

Other issues have arisen, such as in the 2nd bills game, on 2nd down, in the 4th quarter, Sanchez had Plaxico in single man coverage. Plaxico had just begun his break back to the line of scrimmage a yard past the first down marker, he was open by NFL standards. Sanchez saw this, but interestingly pump faked and threw into double coverage for patrick turner, while on target, the ball should not have been thrown there, and the pass was broken up.

Some of these I will partly attribute to inconsistent O-line play and chemistry issues with the wideouts, however the responsibility still lies with Sanchez. On the bright side these are not fatal flaws, and despite these Sanchez still finds ways to win games, which is most important.

While these will not likely be correctly completely this year, another offseason should provide another opportunity for improvement.

You may all descend into a flame war now.

You are very right, Sanchez's problems are very correctable, by him sitting on the bench and watching Manning throw TD after TD all the way to the SB.

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Evidence of him calling his own plays?

I'm pretty sure that he doesn't call plays in the 2 minute. The dozens of times he looks to the sideline and cups his ears and the excrciating time between plays is evidence enough for me. I'd be interested to know why he is more successful. There are many possibilities.

1. He's not actually more successful, we just think he is.

2. They open up the offense and a monkey could succeed @ QB considering the current state of rules and NFL defenses.

3. Teams are playing prevent and it's easier to move the ball. This can lead to both perceived improvement that any QB could match and real improvement due to increased

confidence.

4. There is also the possibility that he does better because he doesn't think as much and let's it rip. His biggest problem appears to be choosing the right person to throw to and the hurry up takes some of that away.

5. He may benefit from a lack of pre-snap reads. He seems to screw those up and get baited. That's why I think a permanentb no huddle is a terrible idea. By rushing up and snapping you ease his mind and take away many of the games defenses play. THe problem is that the no huddle and rushing directly contradict the idea of ball control and TOP that the team is built on.

There are probably 30 other better reasons, but I am pretty sure that Sanchez calling the plays isn't one.

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I'm pretty sure that he doesn't call plays in the 2 minute. The dozens of times he looks to the sideline and cups his ears and the excrciating time between plays is evidence enough for me. I'd be interested to know why he is more successful. There are many possibilities.

1. He's not actually more successful, we just think he is.

2. They open up the offense and a monkey could succeed @ QB considering the current state of rules and NFL defenses.

3. Teams are playing prevent and it's easier to move the ball. This can lead to both perceived improvement that any QB could match and real improvement due to increased

confidence.

4. There is also the possibility that he does better because he doesn't think as much and let's it rip. His biggest problem appears to be choosing the right person to throw to and the hurry up takes some of that away.

5. He may benefit from a lack of pre-snap reads. He seems to screw those up and get baited. That's why I think a permanentb no huddle is a terrible idea. By rushing up and snapping you ease his mind and take away many of the games defenses play. THe problem is that the no huddle and rushing directly contradict the idea of ball control and TOP that the team is built on.

There are probably 30 other better reasons, but I am pretty sure that Sanchez calling the plays isn't one.

wow are your arguments flawed.

So with argument 2 any QB can succeed. Thus the colts aren't really 0-12 without peyton manning, Blaine Gabbert is the next HOF, Mike Vick is again having an MVP season.

Argument 3. Teams are playing prevent defense against the Jets with the game on the line? I don't think so. Watch the games a little closer. The Skins certainly weren't playing passive, they were bringing an extra blitzer.

I can go on.

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Yerp. Exactly why he could be great at USC. The physical aspect of the game is all that matters when your team is just much better than the opponent physically.

I'd bet Sanchez almost never had to go into a play in which he wasn't sure where the ball was going to go in college.

He just may not be capable of it.

Edited by GimmeShelter
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Disagree. I was actually going to start a thread on this...I think its awful.

Problem is the top end is so damn good it masks how low the overall play in the NFL actually is. Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben - all HOF QB's playing in the same era. The rest of the league is mediocre at best to horrible. Considering all the rule changes, it should be significantly better across the board and its not, yet only these guys are truly taking advantage of it.

Its a good discussion and one I might bring up in its own thread. Might be a nice break from the norm though I'm sure it will turn into another Sanchez discussion.

Yeah I agree. Its kind of a strange situation with a large number of really good QBs right now. I mean you have Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, and Id still throw Rivers in that group for at least one more year and then a group of guys who are ok like Romo, Schaub, and Ryan. Then its a huge number of guys mind blowingly bad- Henne, Fitzpatrick, McCoy, Gabbert, the Colts QB of the week, the Chiefs QB of the week, Grossman, Ponder, Hanie, Smith, Jackson, Bradford, Young. Its brutal and when you consider how the rules are set up its amazing guys can be this bad.

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I actually disagree, but in a weird way. I believe the Ben Roethilsberger of 2005 belongs in this category, even thou the Ben of 2008, and today does not if that makes sense. The Steelers won that SB despite him, they had a great D and a great running game.

I'm too lazy to look, but if memory servers ben played great to get Pitts to the sb, then yeah, laid an egg.. but never would've been there if not for him

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I wrote that post with my phone, so maybe I didn't get my point across properly, but I am not saying that any of those items is the singular reason Sanchez has success in the 2 minute, but they are factors. The question is : which is the biggest?

So amonkey can't have success in today's NFL? Okay, but Matt Moore and Ryan Fitzpatrick have. You don't have to be Marino.

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Yeah I agree. Its kind of a strange situation with a large number of really good QBs right now. I mean you have Brady, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Manning, Brees, and Id still throw Rivers in that group for at least one more year and then a group of guys who are ok like Romo, Schaub, and Ryan. Then its a huge number of guys mind blowingly bad- Henne, Fitzpatrick, McCoy, Gabbert, the Colts QB of the week, the Chiefs QB of the week, Grossman, Ponder, Hanie, Smith, Jackson, Bradford, Young. Its brutal and when you consider how the rules are set up its amazing guys can be this bad.

I dont get it. I realize that defensive players are bigger and faster than ever, but they cant touch the Qb, cant touch the WR and have to worry about not drawing a penalty when tackling or hitting certain players. Yet, Qb's still in the great majority, suck. Its just the great ones are doing it so well, we think its overall better, but its just not.

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I dont get it. I realize that defensive players are bigger and faster than ever, but they cant touch the Qb, cant touch the WR and have to worry about not drawing a penalty when tackling or hitting certain players. Yet, Qb's still in the great majority, suck. Its just the great ones are doing it so well, we think its overall better, but its just not.

IMO, it's become more of a mental game now than it was because of the rules against contact. You can't just line up and beat the crap out of receivers like the old Giants and Pats teams tried to do. Now, it's all about decoding the 6-7-8 DB/multiple-front/zone-blitz packages, which is really separating the QBs that have a natural feel for the passing game and can adjust on the fly from the ones that are classroom-trained robots that don't adjust as fast. You hear more and more about defenses changing entire coverages multiple times while the QB is still in his cadence, totally porking the concept of the old "pre-snap read." Now, it's all about the immediately-post-snap read. If you're good at it, you'll feast. If you're not, you're going to watch a lot of your passes returned the other way for TDs. Better to be street smart than book smart, so to speak.

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