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I had this conversation with somebody the other day and we were discussing what spygate will mean to BB's legacy if he never wins a ring after the league took his cameras away. It seems that the overwhelming majority of fans have moved on. Is there a legit point to be made about his career with and without his cameras, as well as with and without Brady at QB?

Discuss!

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Without brady a below .500 coach, and he's fielded terrible defenses for a few years running, which greatly diminishes the genuis DC bullsh*t

He owes everything to brady

Seems to be becoming more and more evident. Tony Dungy and Shanahan could be added to that list as well. Here in DC that is a very common sports talk radio topic between Tebow blurbs.

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BB with Crennel and the cameras, was a defensive genius. Without? Steady decline until eventually become one of the worst defenses in football.

BB with Brady, is one of the all-time winningest coaches in the game. Without? .500 coach

I think this is all very obvious to anyone that follows the NFL, except Patriots fans that have only been tuning in since 2001.

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BB with Crennel and the cameras, was a defensive genius. Without? Steady decline until eventually become one of the worst defenses in football.

BB with Brady, is one of the all-time winningest coaches in the game. Without? .500 coach

I think this is all very obvious to anyone that follows the NFL, except Patriots fans that have only been tuning in since 2001.

BB with grear players* was a defensive genius. Without? Steady decline until eventually become one of the worst defenses in football.

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BB has such an amazing attention to detail and belief in the team concept. Compare that with Rex who basically ignores 1 side of the ball other than to say 'ground-n-pound' and 'more wildcat'.

While BB is undoubtedly a great coach his legacy will always be that of a liar and cheater both on and off the field.

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BB has such an amazing attention to detail and belief in the team concept. Compare that with Rex who basically ignores 1 side of the ball other than to say 'ground-n-pound' and 'more wildcat'.

While BB is undoubtedly a great coach his legacy will always be that of a liar and cheater both on and off the field.

Honestly, I disagree. That will be his legacy according to Jets and Colts fans. Nobody else really gives a crap... they accept the ESPN-ized version of BB as reality. You think an Arizona Cardinals fan, for instance, looks at BB the same way as a Jets fan? Not a chance.

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Honestly, I disagree. That will be his legacy according to Jets and Colts fans. Nobody else really gives a crap... they accept the ESPN-ized version of BB as reality. You think an Arizona Cardinals fan, for instance, looks at BB the same way as a Jets fan? Not a chance.

I think Ravens and Steelers fans give a crap.

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That BB special that had on the NFL Network sure showed how down and out the man's reputation is :rolleyes: His legacy is a joke! I mean, a documentary about him? Why do that? Wait? What? Books written about him? No! People calling him one of the best coaches of all time? Nuts!

You guys are obessed with the Pats. Front page: Would Brady make a good OC. Is BB's image tarnished. Pats versus Tebow.

This complex is getting silly now. Get help. :)

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You guys crack me up! So, Brady is what makes the engine go.....but most of you still call him a "system" quaterback. Who designed the system? You can't have it both ways. They are both pretty good, in my book. Glad I have 'em.

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Bellichek's team is better than our team. His team has been better than most teams in fact. For, like, a decade. Brady's doing? Perhaps. But then of course there was that year he didn't have Brady and Matt Cassel led the team to an 11-5 record. Then too, you could be impressed with the fact that the team won with two QB's that were college nobodies. That their personnel decisions and player development have been excellent for the most part. That his team rarely gets foolish penalties, rarely makes foolish mistakes and doesn';t turn the ball over nearly as much as ours does. Is BB a scumbag? yes of course he is. Is he a mediocre coach? C'mon, man.

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That BB special that had on the NFL Network sure showed how down and out the man's reputation is :rolleyes: His legacy is a joke! I mean, a documentary about him? Why do that? Wait? What? Books written about him? No! People calling him one of the best coaches of all time? Nuts!

You guys are obessed with the Pats. Front page: Would Brady make a good OC. Is BB's image tarnished. Pats versus Tebow.

This complex is getting silly now. Get help. :)

Sending cash to another man's wife who you happen to be having sex with makes him a cheater and a liar. It shouldn't come as a surprise that someone who cheats in his personal life also cheats in his professional life.

He's still a great coach but he's not quite at the level Pats fans put him at. You can't argue with the fact that he has not done much in the playoffs without the video cameras when he knew what plays were coming.

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Sending cash to another man's wife who you happen to be having sex with makes him a cheater and a liar. It shouldn't come as a surprise that someone who cheats in his personal life also cheats in his professional life.

He's still a great coach but he's not quite at the level Pats fans put him at. You can't argue with the fact that he has not done much in the playoffs without the video cameras when he knew what plays were coming.

The Pats were a helmet catch away from a perfect season - no amount of film study can defend that ;) His defenseive game plan against the Bills is enshrined in the Hall of Fame. He is the best situational football coach I have ever seen.

Listen, I get it. Haters are 'gonna hate. I think BB's an a$$ for cheating on his wife. I think Rex is an a$$ for a lot of things too. This argument is not about there personal life, it's about their football life.

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BB with great players* was a defensive genius. Without? Steady decline until eventually become one of the worst defenses in football.

Fair points.

First, I think everyone is guilty of melding Belichick the Coach with Belichick the GM. Belichick is still a defensive genius. To think otherwise is moronic.

The Coach's worst enemy has been the GM that stares back at him in the mirror.

Second, whether due to the strike, injury or Belichick the GM, this D is nowhere near what was expected to be on the field. I am not trying to polish the turd. It is bad, but you cannot tell me he saw signing street free agents to start at corner or safety and having to make Edelman a consistent part of a defensive rotation.

Last, let's reflect on the "worst defenses in football statement". It is horrible. As it stands right now, this will be his second Patriots D since 2005 to finish out of the Top 10 in scoring defense. Again, only the second time for the post dynasty Patriots. In his 26 years as a DC or HC, his D's worst finish is 20th in points allowed.

In the end, that is all that matters.

IMHO, he is coaching his a$$ off to have this D only 14th in points allowed.

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I dont think anyone will care much about Spygate when they look back at BB. I dont think anyone will look at him as a bad coach because of who he had a QB, especially because those 2001 and 2003 SBs were as much about coaching and defense as they were Brady (at least before the playoffs). Brady as the driving force behind the teams regular season success really took off in 2004. Plus he should have won a division title with Cassel. He will always be remembered as pulling off one of the 3 greatest SB upsets of all time (Id imagine it ranks 2nd to the 2007 Giants and is ahead of the 1990 Giants).

I think the big negatives for BB are going to be some of the late runs for his team. The 2006 epic collapse against the Colts where they blew an 18 point lead. The 2007 SB loss to the Giants. The blowout losses at home when favored in 2009 and 2010 during the playoffs. Im not sure that others considered along with him had those same crushing losses. Parcells had the Flipper Anderson game. I think Walsh had a loss in the strike year that he was favored in. Im not sure if Gibbs ever lost a home game. Certainly none of them lost the way BB did. He'll go down as the greatest of his era, but I tend to think people will not look at him as highly as the big name guys from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

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I dont think anyone will care much about Spygate when they look back at BB. I dont think anyone will look at him as a bad coach because of who he had a QB, especially because those 2001 and 2003 SBs were as much about coaching and defense as they were Brady (at least before the playoffs). Brady as the driving force behind the teams regular season success really took off in 2004. Plus he should have won a division title with Cassel. He will always be remembered as pulling off one of the 3 greatest SB upsets of all time (Id imagine it ranks 2nd to the 2007 Giants and is ahead of the 1990 Giants).

I think the big negatives for BB are going to be some of the late runs for his team. The 2006 epic collapse against the Colts where they blew an 18 point lead. The 2007 SB loss to the Giants. The blowout losses at home when favored in 2009 and 2010 during the playoffs. Im not sure that others considered along with him had those same crushing losses. Parcells had the Flipper Anderson game. I think Walsh had a loss in the strike year that he was favored in. Im not sure if Gibbs ever lost a home game. Certainly none of them lost the way BB did. He'll go down as the greatest of his era, but I tend to think people will not look at him as highly as the big name guys from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Belichick is currently 10th in victories. It is not a stretch to say he will be Top 5 by the time he is done. He is 55 wins away. As Jets fans like to point out, he has not won a playoff game since the 2007 playoffs, yet, he is still top 5 and 6 wins away from having the most playoff wins ever.

First, the Jets did not blowout the Patriots.

Second, I know over the years time has a way of fading memory of years gone by. Walsh did lose a home a home game as a 13-2 #1 seed during the strike year to the 8-7 Vikings. That was his third playoff loss in a row. His teams lost the previous two games by a combined 66-6.

Third, Gibbs did lose a home game. Plus his 83 Skins had the indignity of getting crushed in the Superbowl as heavy favorites by the Raiders 38-9. And do not forget about his second Skins tenure ending in a 25-26 thud.

Fourth, Bill Par$ells, deserves credit for doing it for four teams. Unlike the previously mentioned coaches, his teams did roller coaster a bit. 22 years. 42 games over .500. Again, he deserves props for doing it 4 times, but how much of his best success is related to Belichick?

Last, Walsh had Montana. Par$ells and Gibbs greatest success came before the salary cap. If you dig hard enough you can find warts on any coach. Belichick has benefited from Brady, but he had the additional hurdle of doing it during the salary cap era. 9 straight seasons of 10+ wins. He is Hall bound and is in the discussion for G.O.A.T.

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I had this conversation with somebody the other day and we were discussing what spygate will mean to BB's legacy if he never wins a ring after the league took his cameras away. It seems that the overwhelming majority of fans have moved on. Is there a legit point to be made about his career with and without his cameras, as well as with and without Brady at QB?

Discuss!

He's a cheater. I dont think much about it anymore given that the NFL as an organization helped.

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Belichick is currently 10th in victories. It is not a stretch to say he will be Top 5 by the time he is done. He is 55 wins away. As Jets fans like to point out, he has not won a playoff game since the 2007 playoffs, yet, he is still top 5 and 6 wins away from having the most playoff wins ever.

First, the Jets did not blowout the Patriots.

Second, I know over the years time has a way of fading memory of years gone by. Walsh did lose a home a home game as a 13-2 #1 seed during the strike year to the 8-7 Vikings. That was his third playoff loss in a row. His teams lost the previous two games by a combined 66-6.

Third, Gibbs did lose a home game. Plus his 83 Skins had the indignity of getting crushed in the Superbowl as heavy favorites by the Raiders 38-9. And do not forget about his second Skins tenure ending in a 25-26 thud.

Fourth, Bill Par$ells, deserves credit for doing it for four teams. Unlike the previously mentioned coaches, his teams did roller coaster a bit. 22 years. 42 games over .500. Again, he deserves props for doing it 4 times, but how much of his best success is related to Belichick?

Last, Walsh had Montana. Par$ells and Gibbs greatest success came before the salary cap. If you dig hard enough you can find warts on any coach. Belichick has benefited from Brady, but he had the additional hurdle of doing it during the salary cap era. 9 straight seasons of 10+ wins. He is Hall bound and is in the discussion for G.O.A.T.

Dont you think if you are bringing up Walsh/Montana; Bill having Bill, and Gibbs late run flops that you should be bringing up Belichick had Brady, Belichick had Crennel and Weis, and Belichick was terrible in Cleveland? I think for all these guys there are certain things you throw out. Id throw out Cleveland for Belichick and Id definitely throw out Gibbs2K.

I think you look at certain criteria with the coaches. Just using those 4 guys...When did they significantly exceed expectations? For Belichick it was 01, 03 and 08. Parcells was 90 and 98. Gibbs was 82 and 87. Walsh was 81 and 84. Regular season success? Id probably go Gibbs, Belichick, Walsh, Parcells. Doing more with less? Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, Walsh. Falling short of expectations? BB- 07, 09, 10. BP- 87, 89, 99. JG- 83, 84. BW- 87. Best season? Tough call. Gibbs would definitely come in last with the 91 run. I guess the 84 Walsh team would be considered the best though I might be tempted to take the 86 Giants. I think the 2004 Pats rank third and are comfortably behind those two teams (though the 04 Pats I think should be the team of the decade, whereas neither of those 80s teams are since the 85 Bears blow them all away).

I think he definitely belongs behind Walsh and Gibbs. Probably belongs ahead of Parcells but I think people look at Parcells Jets and Patriots runs as reason for him to be above Belichick. I dont think it can be argued that he is the best of his group of coaches. Far better than Dungy, Gruden, Shanahan, Cowher, etc...I just think he will have a hard time cracking through some of those other coaches that are often in the GOAT type conversations.

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Dont you think if you are bringing up Walsh/Montana; Bill having Bill, and Gibbs late run flops that you should be bringing up Belichick had Brady, Belichick had Crennel and Weis, and Belichick was terrible in Cleveland? I think for all these guys there are certain things you throw out. Id throw out Cleveland for Belichick and Id definitely throw out Gibbs2K.

I think you look at certain criteria with the coaches. Just using those 4 guys...When did they significantly exceed expectations? For Belichick it was 01, 03 and 08. Parcells was 90 and 98. Gibbs was 82 and 87. Walsh was 81 and 84. Regular season success? Id probably go Gibbs, Belichick, Walsh, Parcells. Doing more with less? Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick, Walsh. Falling short of expectations? BB- 07, 09, 10. BP- 87, 89, 99. JG- 83, 84. BW- 87. Best season? Tough call. Gibbs would definitely come in last with the 91 run. I guess the 84 Walsh team would be considered the best though I might be tempted to take the 86 Giants. I think the 2004 Pats rank third and are comfortably behind those two teams (though the 04 Pats I think should be the team of the decade, whereas neither of those 80s teams are since the 85 Bears blow them all away).

I think he definitely belongs behind Walsh and Gibbs. Probably belongs ahead of Parcells but I think people look at Parcells Jets and Patriots runs as reason for him to be above Belichick. I dont think it can be argued that he is the best of his group of coaches. Far better than Dungy, Gruden, Shanahan, Cowher, etc...I just think he will have a hard time cracking through some of those other coaches that are often in the GOAT type conversations.

That is my point.

Call it what you want, but all the coaches you mentioned benefited from being in the right place at the right time. Whether it is having an outstanding coordinator under them or having a low round pick become a Hall of Famer.

IMHO his Cleveland days were better than people give him credit for. Yes, he made some bad personnel decisions. In the end though, he took over a horrible team and built them into a playoff contender. His last team was in contention only to have Model announce the move to Baltimore and the wheels came off.

In the end we are splitting hairs as they are all great coaches.

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Its a stupid argument. No one hates BB more than I do, but where does it end. Lombardi was nothing without Bart Starr? Chuck Knoll without Bradshaw? Bill Walsh no Montana? Landry no Staubach? Every great team has a great QB, that simple. Would Torre win all those rings without Mo? Every great coach needs great players, thats what makes them great.

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I dont think anyone will care much about Spygate when they look back at BB. I dont think anyone will look at him as a bad coach because of who he had a QB, especially because those 2001 and 2003 SBs were as much about coaching and defense as they were Brady (at least before the playoffs). Brady as the driving force behind the teams regular season success really took off in 2004. Plus he should have won a division title with Cassel. He will always be remembered as pulling off one of the 3 greatest SB upsets of all time (Id imagine it ranks 2nd to the 2007 Giants and is ahead of the 1990 Giants).

I think the big negatives for BB are going to be some of the late runs for his team. The 2006 epic collapse against the Colts where they blew an 18 point lead. The 2007 SB loss to the Giants. The blowout losses at home when favored in 2009 and 2010 during the playoffs. Im not sure that others considered along with him had those same crushing losses. Parcells had the Flipper Anderson game. I think Walsh had a loss in the strike year that he was favored in. Im not sure if Gibbs ever lost a home game. Certainly none of them lost the way BB did. He'll go down as the greatest of his era, but I tend to think people will not look at him as highly as the big name guys from the 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Um.... Jets - Colts?

I think Belichick gets extra props for his work as a coordinator. That '90 SB win was as much his as Parcells.

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same legacy as the black sox

sports fans have a long memory for cheaters

And?

Do fans vote for anything meaningful? No. You can stuff ballot boxes for all-star games and pro bowls that is it.

Is football HofF voter's as misguided as baseball's? No. Ray Lewis was involved in a murder. He is destined for the Hall. Ditto Belichick.

Outside of a fan-dumb, no one cares about Belichick. Or Ray Lewis. Or the Tuck game.

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And?

Do fans vote for anything meaningful? No. You can stuff ballot boxes for all-star games and pro bowls that is it.

Is football HofF voter's as misguided as baseball's? No. Ray Lewis was involved in a murder. He is destined for the Hall. Ditto Belichick.

Outside of a fan-dumb, no one cares about Belichick. Or Ray Lewis. Or the Tuck game.

And?

We are talking about their legacy. What the fans think. If you don't think these egomaniacs care about that, you are the one that is misguided.

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And?

Do fans vote for anything meaningful? No. You can stuff ballot boxes for all-star games and pro bowls that is it.

Is football HofF voter's as misguided as baseball's? No. Ray Lewis was involved in a murder. He is destined for the Hall. Ditto Belichick.

Outside of a fan-dumb, no one cares about Belichick. Or Ray Lewis. Or the Tuck game.

and

it means for the rest of your life when you try to brag about hardware, even 50 years from now, whoever you are talking to is going to laugh it off and say "those don't count, they cheated !!!"

duh

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And?

We are talking about their legacy. What the fans think. If you don't think these egomaniacs care about that, you are the one that is misguided.

Do some players/coaches care? Yes.

Does Belichick? No. I am pretty secure in saying he does not care what the New England or any other fan base thinks. He does not care what the care what the media says or thinks.

Now, the fraternity of NFL players and Coaches, I would say there are players and coaches he cares about their opinion. Fans?

No. We do not validate him.

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Seems to be becoming more and more evident. Tony Dungy and Shanahan could be added to that list as well. Here in DC that is a very common sports talk radio topic between Tebow blurbs.

Dungy at least he success in Tampa. Those teams never won the SB but he built the defense that won one the year after he leaves....yes Gruden did was change the offense (bring in new line for example) but that dungy defense won the title for him.

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