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This is about to get very bad...


nj meadowlands

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Again, nothing I'm saying has to do with Santonio being right in his actions, just in his understanding of the situation, and his value over the QB and the OC.

As for Plax, dude shot himself in the leg and got a contract out of jail. I don't think "being next to Holmes" is what made him look like a changed guy.

I really think you overestimate Holmes' talent. He has only had one 1,000 yard season. He shows up to make flashy plays now and again, but he's never been a primary receiving threat. He doesn't produce (or work) on a consistent basis.

By no means am I saying that he isn't talented, but I just can't see how anyone pegs him as a #1.

And about the Braylon/Santonio thing... if Mike T really thought Santonio was that much better than I am not in a position to dispute that. He has a staff of evaluators that have forgotten more about football than I will ever know.

But as a layman, I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall to understand why they valued him so much more that they not only chose him over Edwards, but paid him much more than they would have had to pay Edwards.

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Yeah ike the Eagle game. He blows up our chances b4 the game is even a qtr old and then celebrates a meaningless TD. Yep.....Santonio is always right.

He had a bad game. He's not a super star, but he's still better than anyone else we've got. By a lot.

Is he a jackass, of course, but that does nothing to diminish his abilities.

What can I say, I'd rather a guy I don't like who's capable of performing over people who suck but are really nice people.

I said the same thing about Pennington.

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Good lord have you ever played an organized sport in your life? Or do you act like a spoiled child in all aspects of life?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'm gonna try to make it personal because I can't hang with the actual debate... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

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He had a bad game. He's not a super star, but he's still better than anyone else we've got. By a lot.

Is he a jackass, of course, but that does nothing to diminish his abilities.

What can I say, I'd rather a guy I don't like who's capable of performing over people who suck but are really nice people.

I said the same thing about Pennington.

Obviously...but there's a huge difference in guys like Ray Lewis and Santonio Holmes.

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Santonio Holmes' blow-up and benching occurred in the final minutes of the New York Jets' season-ending loss Sunday, but the tension had been building for days, team sources told ESPNNewYork.com.

The warning signs were there last week, team sources said Monday -- Holmes and Mark Sanchez exchanged words in a quarterback/receivers meeting last week, according to a source.

Sanchez, in an attempt to rally the Jets' slumping offense, addressed the unit in a meeting Wednesday and said he was planning to hold special after-hours sessions to fine-tune the game plan for the season finale against the Miami Dolphins.

Holmes showed up for the meeting, but stood in the back of the room and was "pouting the whole time," one source said. According to another source, Holmes said, "Why do I have to do this?" Sanchez held the same meeting the following day, but Holmes was a no-show, sources said.

"I had a feeling it was going to explode," one source said.

Kind of like when Eli Manning needed some veteran cancers removed from the roster b4 it became his team and his career took off. No way of knowing if Sanchez willl follow suit but it is difficult for young QB's to lead with this type of a player on the team....think Tiki and Shockey at the end of their Giants days.

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He had a bad game. He's not a super star, but he's still better than anyone else we've got. By a lot.

I know it's only one game, and I don't want to make a big deal out of such a small sample. But, Jeremy Kerley's game against Miami may have been better than any game Santonio played all year.

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Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaaaaaa... I'm gonna try to make it personal because I can't hang with the actual debate... Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

What actual point have you made other than the fantastic "Jets fans hate talent" argument

Santonio Holmes who got kicked off the Steelers and you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

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I really think you overestimate Holmes' talent. He has only had one 1,000 yard season. He shows up to make flashy plays now and again, but he's never been a primary receiving threat. He doesn't produce (or work) on a consistent basis.

By no means am I saying that he isn't talented, but I just can't see how anyone pegs him as a #1.

And about the Braylon/Santonio thing... if Mike T really thought Santonio was that much better than I am not in a position to dispute that. He has a staff of evaluators that have forgotten more about football than I will ever know.

But as a layman, I really wish I could have been a fly on the wall to understand why they valued him so much more that they not only chose him over Edwards, but paid him much more than they would have had to pay Edwards.

I never said he's a super star, but he's the 2nd best player on our offense, and he's been completely phased out because we're incapable of using him properly.

Honestly, unless you've got one of the elite WRs, I just don't think it matters that much. It's a QB league, you need a guy that can get these guys the ball.

Also, I wanted Edwards in the beginning. The team didn't go that way, so we've got Holmes, and my overarching point is the guy has substantial talent (even if he's not a superstar), and we're wasting it.

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He had a bigger role last year. I'm assuming that he believed, like most people, that Sanchez would take a step forward, rather than staying the same, if not getting worse.

Hence the way you get better is building an off field relationship, a la extra time, extra meetings....Holmes is dirt.

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What actual point have you made other than the fantastic "Jets fans hate talent" argument

Santonio Holmes who got kicked off the Steelers and you're giving him the benefit of the doubt.

That Santonio Holmes is the 2nd most talented player on our offense, and he's being wasted.

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So, his stats were "similar" when he played 3/4 of the games. That's not a problem?

I'm not saying his effort was good, but you know what, in his position, what was the motivation to work hard? Sanchez was horrendous this year and couldn't get him the ball, and Schotty gameplanned around that fact.

$50 million? 52 other players on your squad counting on you? hundreds of thousands of fans supporting you? The respect of your coaches? Showing you deserve the C on your jersey? I wonder what Curtis Martin's motivation to work hard was when he had a crappy o=line? Why didn't he throw a tantrum and quit? Why hasn't Larry Fitgerald taken his ball and gone home when he hasn't had a talented QB? It's called professionalism.

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Hence the way you get better is building an off field relationship, a la extra time, extra meetings....Holmes is dirt.

Yes, he's a jackass. But lets not act like Holmes is the reason Sanchez still stinks. I wish it were just about rhythm and work with the WRs... It's not. The argument is marginal at best for blaming Schotty for Sanchez's failures, but at least it makes decent sense. It just doesn't work for holmes.

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That Santonio Holmes is the 2nd most talented player on our offense, and he's being wasted.

Right, I agree. But that doesnt give him any right to act the way he's acting, which you seem to be giving a pass. He just got himself booted from his second team in 2 years.

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Yes, he's a jackass. But lets not act like Holmes is the reason Sanchez still stinks. I wish it were just about rhythm and work with the WRs... It's not. The argument is marginal at best for blaming Schotty for Sanchez's failures, but at least it makes decent sense. It just doesn't work for holmes.

I don't think anyone is saying Sanchez stinks because of Holmes. The issue is you trying to say Holmes actions were ok due to Sanchez poor play.

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I don't think anyone is saying Sanchez stinks because of Holmes. The issue is you trying to say Holmes actions were ok due to Sanchez poor play.

Holmes actions weren't OK. But I see what the other poster is saying. Holmes is frustrated beyond belief by Sanchez sucking and him not getting the rock. Its unfortunate he handles it like an infantile moron though.
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$50 million? 52 other players on your squad counting on you? hundreds of thousands of fans supporting you? The respect of your coaches? Showing you deserve the C on your jersey? I wonder what Curtis Martin's motivation to work hard was when he had a crappy o=line? Why didn't he throw a tantrum and quit? Why hasn't Larry Fitgerald taken his ball and gone home when he hasn't had a talented QB? It's called professionalism.

They're not using him. That's the difference. The gameplan is built to generally exclude WRs.

The gameplan in Arizona is to get Larry Fitzgerald the ball, as he's their best player. The gameplan in NY is to protect the QB from making the big mistake, which means when we don't run, we check down. Think back to the last 6 weeks, we barely threw downfield at all, the protection plays a role, but not entirely.

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Right, I agree. But that doesnt give him any right to act the way he's acting, which you seem to be giving a pass. He just got himself booted from his second team in 2 years.

1) The 1st thing I said was that I don't condone the behavior, but I understand it.

2) I don't think he's gone. Though nothing would surprise me I guess.

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I don't think anyone is saying Sanchez stinks because of Holmes. The issue is you trying to say Holmes actions were ok due to Sanchez poor play.

Again, 1st thing I said was behavior was not okay. I've said it multiple times in fact. The point I'm making is that I understand why, and appreciate the reasons behind it. Holmes should be pissed. He should have handled it quite differently, but his complaints are legitimate.

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Holmes actions weren't OK. But I see what the other poster is saying. Holmes is frustrated beyond belief by Sanchez sucking and him not getting the rock. Its unfortunate he handles it like an infantile moron though.

Oh I agree with the fact Holmes is frustrated and rightfully so but we both know you don't skip a QB-WR meeting prior to a must win game and then follow it up with yesterdays actions.

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Again, 1st thing I said was behavior was not okay. I've said it multiple times in fact. The point I'm making is that I understand why, and appreciate the reasons behind it. Holmes should be pissed. He should have handled it quite differently, but his complaints are legitimate.

Ok my bad.

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1) The 1st thing I said was that I don't condone the behavior, but I understand it.

2) I don't think he's gone. Though nothing would surprise me I guess.

How do you understand it? That's the onyl reason I made the argument "personal" even though it wasnt. Like Tom said, he has personality issues and will always have them. I dont think there's anything to understand.

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Oh I agree with the fact Holmes is frustrated and rightfully so but we both know you don't skip a QB-WR meeting prior to a must win game and then follow it up with yesterdays actions.

Absolutely. Completely with you. For $50 million he should be sunshine and rainbows all day long.
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I don't think anyone is saying Sanchez stinks because of Holmes.

Maybe not, but that's basically the endgame here. Schottenheimer may be a dunce and Holmes may be a cancer, but Sanchez is ungodly terrible and he gets to stick around and even gets a reboot on the patience and potential arguments. Nothing like a little game of character assassination to distract everyone from the fact that the team's biggest problem is the hard-working kid everybody likes.

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i dont know why you guys want to run holmes out of town.. obviously he was a lil b@##$% yesterday... but he hates schotty as much as we do.. he's as frustrated as we are.... you should be glad your voice is being heard... i think he'll get his act together once the offense in general has its act together

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How do you understand it? That's the onyl reason I made the argument "personal" even though it wasnt. Like Tom said, he has personality issues and will always have them. I dont think there's anything to understand.

Because my job as a professional student is to understand exactly that. ;) Holmes's is a baby. He's an a$$hole. He's not the type of guy you want to be your captain. You can stop your thinking there, and that's fine. But, you can also think about why he's acting the way he is. I believe he's completely justified to be upset. I believe he wants to win and he wants to be involved. He got neither this year, and he's upset about it. Externalized poorly, of course. But motivation is always more important than behavior in understanding.

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