Shotty's System or Sanchez's play...?

[Jetscode1]

That should factor 0 into what has the offense has to do to help win games. The 2006 Jets' offense was something like 18th. Their D was something like 18th. They won 10 games anyway. Even considering a weak schedule, a coaching staff's aim to win the game and worry about their statistical ranking this week later.

I will gladly blame the 25 year old kid. The fact that he's a 25 year old kid (barely 25, he was 24 for half+ of this season) just makes it easier to spot him, as it's obvious that if there's a flaw on a team like this it's going to be with the 25 year old they give the ball to every offensive handoff. At Sanchez's age a few of the stud QBs in this league were just getting their feet wet or still riding pine even. He's going to play like that kind of guy sometimes.

Fact is, Schottenheimer has mostly worked with garbage at QB, and he's dragged two of them to the playoffs despite how badly they didn't deserve to be there. Hell, the one who put up pretty numbers that we all like to see is the one that went and blew up in everyone's face....not that that means anything, just something that's funny to see. I think that Sanchez took a forward in completion% and TD:INT is something that says the coaches did more of what he could do (didn't even have a TC for both Sanchez and his coaches), that the GM went and got him pass catchers who can catch TDs, and that sometimes he does his job. Nobody is teaching him to make mistakes. They are his mistakes, and it is his job to make sure those mistakes do not happen.

Really, it pretty much all comes down to Sanchez. If they went out and got Manning, they'd be saying exactly that. This team is pretty damn good at most things but throwing the ball. How is it not painfully obvious that it's Sanchez?

The NFL is an entertainment industry...the product on the field is excruciatingly painful to watch...even when the Jets made the playoffs in 2006 the offense was painful to watch and were not a serious threat because the offense was not expected to score more than 20 points against the better NFL teams. The fact is Schottenheimer was dragged into the playoffs that year and has not led the Jets into anything but the miserable medoricty that is his staple of his offensive units. Its painfully obvious that Sanchez sucked this year and its painfully obvious that he looks a lot like the previous QBs who worked under Schotty. If the Jets and Brian Schottenheimer somehow obtained Peyton Manning or Tom Brady it would become painfully obvious that they would quickly look like every QB who played under Schotty....sh*tty!

[peebag]

Why does Mark Sanchez look exactly like Kellen Clemens?

Excellent question...wish I knew the answer

[Smashmouth]

To answer the OP I think its a Mix of 4 situations

An offensively Ignorant HC

Shotty has been bad here for some time yet we keep retaining him and even extending him through 2014

I think we lack explosive talent on offense, along with serious issues on the O-line

I think Sanchez makes some boneheaded mistakes and needs some REAL direction

All of this ties into one big mess and we wont have the real answers until something changes. No matter how much we all argue, the current situation IS NOT WORKING. If something is not done and we go into next year with the same or close to the same scenario we are screwed and Tanny should be fired after the season is over and Rex may follow his a$$ due to his total avoidance of the offensive situation. When reporters ask our head Coach a question about the Santonio Situation or the Shonn Greene fumble situation of last year and our coaches response is "I didnt even know they were on the bench" Thats just plain NUTS IMO and it makes both him and the organization look like the fuggin mickey mouse club

[Jetscode1]

Take ownership? Is this football or ******* therapy?

The problem isn't the number of mistakes he makes, but the type. The fact that he makes mistakes that you can see coming from a mile away and that any Pop Warner QB would be humiliated by are painful to watch. Do you really think a coach was involved with Checkdown Charlie throwing it to defensive linemen TWICE IN ONE GAME? With taking the safety in the Giants game? Those are things that are hard to forgive.

Kind of ironic that we now call Sanchez "Checkdown Charlie" after the "Checkdown Chad" era of Pennington...makes me wonder if there is a common factor...

[Jetscode1]

The Schottenheimer apologists around here seem to think that we should not look at history. Favre and Pennington both went against their career norm's when Schotty was their OC. They had worse years with Schotty than without.

Ah, forget it. Some of you are just so darned stubborn.

GreenBeans and Warfish nailed it. The fault goes around to everyone. Sanchez looked like crap this year. Schotty has always called predictable plays. Rex seems to be oblivious as to what goes on with the offense. Tannebaum/Woody (the Front Office) did not have a good offseason this past year.

I am not convinced that Sanchez is as bad as some of you do. I too, will remain stubborn and make the claim that I always make;

I don't know what Sanchez will look like with another offense in the NFL. I do know what a Schottenheimer offense looks like with another QB (1 being the most accurate in NFL history, the other being the all-time leader in many passing categories), and I didn't like it at all.

Schotty got a chance with multiple QB's, Sanchez deserves a chance with another OC. Scrapping the QB is premature at this point. Patience is the prudent choice in terms of the young signal caller. If he continues to suck with another OC, then you can him.

Just my .02

This and that.

[CTM]

You must like the product Schotty puts on the field...guess I just disagree...take a look at Houston...good example of an offensive staff that can get decent performance with an average QB talent wise...can you name one QB that Schotty helped develop?

Houston? Houston would be an exact example of what I'm talking about. They have a good QB, and have a good offense. The QB gets hurt, sh*tty QB comes in, and offense stinks. They avg like 14pts a game with Yates in there and even there vaunted runnign games performance has trailed off..

No, i don't like the Jets offense, I'm making a simple observation taht bad QB generally results in bad offense. We've had bad QB's here, so it's not surprising we've had bad offenses..

Edited January 3, 2012 by CTM

[afosomf]

Houston? Houston would be an exact example of what I'm talking about. They have a good QB, and have a good offense. The QB gets hurt, sh*tty QB comes in, and offense stinks. They avg like 14pts a game with Yates in there and even there vaunted runnign games performance has trailed off..

No, i don't like the Jets offense, I'm making a simple observation taht bad QB generally results in bad offense. We've had bad QB's here

Actually Hou ran for 170 yds vs Texans and lost, G&P is a FG generating O and has jumped the shark. So the more rexey speaks of G&P, the more

jet fans should worry. Anyone thinking that G&P was the way to attack the Patsies secondary, needs their heads examined. it is better to let the kid

air it out now, then to wait another 2 yrs and pay another $20M to this JAG. Making the playoffs this year would have been a waste of time imo. I crack up

when i see the jets should have run more. reallly? How many gaping holes did this OL create. How many times did you see Greene limp off the field?

Better to know now that he cant play. if they go G&P next yr, going to be real ugly.

[CTM]

Actually Hou ran for 170 yds vs Texans and lost, G&P is a FG generating O and has jumped the shark. So the more rexey speaks of G&P, the more

jet fans should worry. Anyone thinking that G&P was the way to attack the Patsies secondary, needs their heads examined. it is better to let the kid

air it out now, then to wait another 2 yrs and pay another $20M to this JAG. Making the playoffs this year would have been a waste of time imo. I crack up

when i see the jets should have run more. reallly? How many gaping holes did this OL create. How many times did you see Greene limp off the field?

Better to know now that he cant play. if they go G&P next yr, going to be real ugly.

Versus titans? They ran for 222 last time they played..

But I do agree, not a G&P fan and think rex needs to realize he needs offense to win.. You get the feeling that if the offense punted every drive and the defense gave up 1 long FG drive all game, he'd be more mad at the defense

[afosomf]

Versus titans? They ran for 222 last time they played..

But I do agree, not a G&P fan and think rex needs to realize he needs offense to win.. You get the feeling that if the offense punted every drive and the defense gave up 1 long FG drive all game, he'd be more mad at the defense

OOps meant to say vs lowly Colts

[LionelRichie]

My biggest problem with Schott is the total lack of discipline on offense. Great, he benched Holmes with 2 minutes left in a wasted season - how many times do we need to hear "false start #82 offense" before he benches Matt freakin Mulligan for good?

The offense has consistently made the same mistakes for the past 3 years and the coaches ARE accountable for that. That includes Rex and every coach associated with the offense. After 2 false starts how is it even possible to see Mulligan still on the field? The coaching staff needs to establish that stupid, drive killing penalties, dropped passes, and missed assignments will not be tolerated.

Sanchez was so bad this season that you can't put the blame on Schott. He is consistently late delivering the ball and misses too many wide open throws to succeed in the NFL. When the OC does give you a chance with the right match up and play call it's up to the QB to execute and Sanchez just doesn't do a good enough job.

[CTM]

The Schottenheimer apologists around here seem to think that we should not look at history. Favre and Pennington both went against their career norm's when Schotty was their OC. They had worse years with Schotty than without.

Ah, forget it. Some of you are just so darned stubborn.

Pennington and Favre both had worse seasons without Schotty, see 2006 for Favre (or 2010) and see 2003, 2009 for Pennington

[Sperm Edwards]

You must like the product Schotty puts on the field...guess I just disagree...take a look at Houston...good example of an offensive staff that can get decent performance with an average QB talent wise...can you name one QB that Schotty helped develop?

I'm not his biggest fan by a long shot, but I can name two.

Drew Brees

Philip Rivers

He was the QB coach for both of them in San Diego.

[afosomf]

My biggest problem with Schott is the total lack of discipline on offense. Great, he benched Holmes with 2 minutes left in a wasted season - how many times do we need to hear "false start #82 offense" before he benches Matt freakin Mulligan for good?

The offense has consistently made the same mistakes for the past 3 years and the coaches ARE accountable for that. That includes Rex and every coach associated with the offense. After 2 false starts how is it even possible to see Mulligan still on the field? The coaching staff needs to establish that stupid, drive killing penalties, dropped passes, and missed assignments will not be tolerated.

Sanchez was so bad this season that you can't put the blame on Schott. He is consistently late delivering the ball and misses too many wide open throws to succeed in the NFL. When the OC does give you a chance with the right match up and play call it's up to the QB to execute and Sanchez just doesn't do a good enough job.

Spoken with Jim Miller about sanchez too, he just doesnt see field, vs Den, he had Mcnight open on a wheelroute and throw a pick on same play costing us the game. Miller also spoke highly about Cavanaugh and Schott. Most of the insiders know it aint the coaching. Dilfer has also expressed this on NFL32

[LionelRichie]

Spoken with Jim Miller about sanchez too, he just doesnt see field, vs Den, he had Mcnight open on a wheelroute and throw a pick on same play costing us the game. Miller also spoke highly about Cavanaugh and Schott. Most of the insiders know it aint the coaching. Dilfer has also expressed this on NFL32

Afo from Vermont, right? I thought the name sounded familiar.

[afosomf]

Afo from Vermont, right? I thought the name sounded familiar.

Yep

[GreenBeans]

Spoken with Jim Miller about sanchez too, he just doesnt see field, vs Den, he had Mcnight open on a wheelroute and throw a pick on same play costing us the game. Miller also spoke highly about Cavanaugh and Schott. Most of the insiders know it aint the coaching. Dilfer has also expressed this on NFL32

That's actually not correct. If the coaching is confusing the player to the point where they can no longer function, it is the coaching. Part of coaching, maybe the most important part of coaching, is knowing your players inside out, upside down, sideways, etc. Schottenheimer might just be guilty of not paying attention to what Sanchez was capable of at the time of the play call. Or maybe Sanchez just sucks. Or maybe he just missed the read. Or maybe...

It's never absolute, it is always situational.

[The Crusher]

Spoken with Jim Miller about sanchez too, he just doesnt see field, vs Den, he had Mcnight open on a wheelroute and throw a pick on same play costing us the game. Miller also spoke highly about Cavanaugh and Schott. Most of the insiders know it aint the coaching. Dilfer has also expressed this on NFL32

Welcome back man!!

Spot on post.

[afosomf]

That's actually not correct. If the coaching is confusing the player to the point where they can no longer function, it is the coaching. Part of coaching, maybe the most important part of coaching, is knowing your players inside out, upside down, sideways, etc. Schottenheimer might just be guilty of not paying attention to what Sanchez was capable of at the time of the play call. Or maybe Sanchez just sucks. Or maybe he just missed the read. Or maybe...

It's never absolute, it is always situational.

I disagree, Miller told me that Schott's Motion Offense is designed to give QB clues on where to throw the ball. Basic reads. you listent to NFL radio, How many times do you hear Gannon go on and on about sanchez.. what about the other throw to Mcnight vs Gints, he made read and made awful throw ,would have been a TD. you cannot blame schott there. You also cannot have a top 5 pick hand it off 40x a game. You need to know now what he can do,

it is ok to disagree. I hope i am wrong. With a new OC we shall C, i am not confident

[Sperm Edwards]

Spoken with Jim Miller about sanchez too, he just doesnt see field, vs Den, he had Mcnight open on a wheelroute and throw a pick on same play costing us the game. Miller also spoke highly about Cavanaugh and Schott. Most of the insiders know it aint the coaching. Dilfer has also expressed this on NFL32

I haven't spoken to anyone, but I watch football games like everyone else here. Anyone can see that Sanchez rarely turns his gaze from one part of the field to another. So he misses not only his own open receivers but he misses coverage sliding/cheating over to the receiver he's staring down like Eddie from Frasier. The first friggin' play of the Dolphins game he threw into quadruple coverage.

Compound that with his head being so far up his a$$ (calling timeout at the end of a half with 20 seconds on the play clock when we're trying to run the clock down, panicking into throwing into a mess of linemen rather than taking a sack on 1st down, holding the ball too long and too far from his body, and plenty more stuff) and you get the product you see on the field.

Schottenheimer may not be God's gift to playcalling, but he's coached some pretty good QB's right out of college. The Jets also surrounded him with the same playbook and the same QB coach since he was drafted instead of giving him a new one every year like a lot of young/struggling QBs get, and even used up their #2 QB roster spot on yet another QB coach for him. They bring in Joe Namath to help him. They bring in Tom Moore to help him. They keep bring in receivers who have had success elsewhere in big games to help him.

He is beyond help. I think the team recognizes this. They're just not saying so because it serves no purpose to tip their hand on January 2nd in case they don't get a realistic shot at someone who can clearly take over.

But make no mistake, they are clearly bringing in someone else.

- If that new person is a rookie then Sanchez will almost definitely start in 2012 but he'll be yanked at some point during the season if he doesn't dramatically improve.

- If that new person is a mid-level/mediocre veteran (Kyle Orton type) then Sanchez will have to beat him out for the job in pre-season.

- If that new person is someone that comes along with a mega-contract (Manning, Flynn) - which I think is pretty unlikely - then Sanchez is gone for cap reasons.

But when the question is put to Tannenbaum point-blank if it's Sanchez-or-bust next season, and his response is that the Jets will look to improve at any position where options present themselves, then you have your answer. If they asked him that question last year the answer wouldn't have been so slippery, and he'd have clearly stated Sanchez is 100% the Jets starting QB next year.

Good to see you back here.

[GreenBeans]

I disagree, Miller told me that Schott's Motion Offense is designed to give QB clues on where to throw the ball. Basic reads. you listent to NFL radio, How many times do you hear Gannon go on and on about sanchez.. what about the other throw to Mcnight vs Gints, he made read and made awful throw ,would have been a TD. you cannot blame schott there. You also cannot have a top 5 pick hand it off 40x a game. You need to know now what he can do,

it is ok to disagree. I hope i am wrong. With a new OC we shall C, i am not confident

Again, It's never absolute, it is always situational. I'm not real high on Sanchez, either, but you have to give the kid a chance to succede and I'm not sure that Schottenheimer's philosophy and play calling have given him that chance.

[Jetscode1]

I'm not his biggest fan by a long shot, but I can name two.

Drew Brees

Philip Rivers

He was the QB coach for both of them in San Diego.

I'll concede that Schotty was the QB coach in SD...how much of their development is related to him...hmmm...not sure...Sanchez is flawed but Schotty's resume with QBs since coming to the Jets has not exactly overwhelmed...

[hoping4ASuperBowl]

Again, It's never absolute, it is always situational. I'm not real high on Sanchez, either, but you have to give the kid a chance to succede and I'm not sure that Schottenheimer's philosophy and play calling have given him that chance.

I think Sanchez deserves at the very least one year with a different OC.

[Aten]

Sanchez had 16 starts at USC. 16. No one else thought about that 3 years ago???

When you say 'no one else,' you mean besides whom?

[SenorGato]

The NFL is an entertainment industry...the product on the field is excruciatingly painful to watch...even when the Jets made the playoffs in 2006 the offense was painful to watch and were not a serious threat because the offense was not expected to score more than 20 points against the better NFL teams. The fact is Schottenheimer was dragged into the playoffs that year and has not led the Jets into anything but the miserable medoricty that is his staple of his offensive units. Its painfully obvious that Sanchez sucked this year and its painfully obvious that he looks a lot like the previous QBs who worked under Schotty. If the Jets and Brian Schottenheimer somehow obtained Peyton Manning or Tom Brady it would become painfully obvious that they would quickly look like every QB who played under Schotty....sh*tty!

Yes dude, because the talent level on that offense sucked. You're not breaking news. That's not a scheme thing.

Edited January 3, 2012 by SenorGato

[CTM]

Yes dude, because the talent level on that offense sucked. You're not breaking news. That's not a scheme thing.

Given the lack of talent on that team it may have been the noodle arm's finest year, that was when Mangini was busy bringing in high character, no talent players

[SenorGato]

Given the lack of talent on that team it may have been the noodle arm's finest year, that was when Mangini was busy bringing in high character, no talent players

It was Pennington's best year...but his '08 looks cleaner on the stat sheet so everyone will run to that one. The talent that offense was just terrible...like Jaguars bad, except there was no MJD there to bring some kind of respectability...Chad Pennington was the closest thing to that in '06...that says a crap ton about the talent.

[CTM]

It was Pennington's best year...but his '08 looks cleaner on the stat sheet so everyone will run to that one. The talent that offense was just terrible...like Jaguars bad, except there was no MJD there to bring some kind of respectability...Chad Pennington was the closest thing to that in '06...that says a crap ton about the talent.

Dolphins were runnign an innovative offense that year and constantly had guys breaking wide open. 2002 was Pennington's best year, followed by 06, then 08 then 04... 03, 05, and 07 were disasters

[SenorGato]

Dolphins were runnign an innovative offense that year and constantly had guys breaking wide open. 2002 was Pennington's best year, followed by 06, then 08 then 04... 03, 05, and 07 were disasters

**** innovative they used alot of what the Jets did in '06 with better talent at RB and possibly OL. '02 was definitely Pennington's best year but it wasn't a full season...that plus I thought most forgot about that year.

[hoping4ASuperBowl]

Dolphins were runnign an innovative offense that year and constantly had guys breaking wide open. 2002 was Pennington's best year, followed by 06, then 08 then 04... 03, 05, and 07 were disasters

My parents always told me the best time to get Italian red wines is the odd years.

[#27TheDominator]

Kind of ironic that we now call Sanchez "Checkdown Charlie" after the "Checkdown Chad" era of Pennington...makes me wonder if there is a common factor...

That was a concious choice on my part. I don't think that anybody makes Sanchez checkdown, I think he is being a puss. He knows this is a good team that needs him to minimize mistakes and he is a good kid and trying to do that. The problem is that he is STILL MAKING THE MISTAKES. Why does he always run out of bounds? He's outside the pocket, all he has to do is throw the ball past the LOS out of bounds. He did it at least 3 times Sunday. You think the coaches told him to keep the ball? Maybe they are trying to get him hurt? I don't think so. I think they opened things up and gave him more chances this year and he is showing the same growing pains we'd have expected if they let him loose as a rook.

[#27TheDominator]

My biggest problem with Schott is the total lack of discipline on offense. Great, he benched Holmes with 2 minutes left in a wasted season - how many times do we need to hear "false start #82 offense" before he benches Matt freakin Mulligan for good?

The offense has consistently made the same mistakes for the past 3 years and the coaches ARE accountable for that. That includes Rex and every coach associated with the offense. After 2 false starts how is it even possible to see Mulligan still on the field? The coaching staff needs to establish that stupid, drive killing penalties, dropped passes, and missed assignments will not be tolerated.

Sanchez was so bad this season that you can't put the blame on Schott. He is consistently late delivering the ball and misses too many wide open throws to succeed in the NFL. When the OC does give you a chance with the right match up and play call it's up to the QB to execute and Sanchez just doesn't do a good enough job.

I think there was an article blaming Sanchez for this. It said they would break the huddle and then Sanchez would be calling out that the play was different. I don't think the O was undisciplined under Pennington or Favre. It wasn't even bad under Clemens, but they were horrible with false starts this season. While the younger guys have been worse, there have been more from Moore, Keller and Brick as well.

[Sperm Edwards]

I think there was an article blaming Sanchez for this. It said they would break the huddle and then Sanchez would be calling out that the play was different. I don't think the O was undisciplined under Pennington or Favre. It wasn't even bad under Clemens, but they were horrible with false starts this season. While the younger guys have been worse, there have been more from Moore, Keller and Brick as well.

Please tell me you're joking.

[hoping4ASuperBowl]

Please tell me you're joking.

Didn't they go back to the Red, Yellow, Green method with him?

[#27TheDominator]

Please tell me you're joking.

Nope. I will get the quotes later or tomorrow. My father is the one that told me and I think it was in the article where the linemen were bitching about Holmes. My Dad doesn't go online, but he reads all the papers and I'm sure he has it highlighted in his house somewhere.

I will say that it may be a result of them trying to open things up a bit throw more, more audible, which may be why there weren't so many problems the prior Sanchez years or with Clemens.

[JohnnyHector]

I'll concede that Schotty was the QB coach in SD...how much of their development is related to him...hmmm...not sure...Sanchez is flawed but Schotty's resume with QBs since coming to the Jets has not exactly overwhelmed...

So you're not sure how much credit Shottenheimer deserves for being the QB coach for Brees and Rivers, but don't hesitate to assign him blame for Sanchez's horrawful on-field performance?