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someone got into moms wine coolers.

we had to get him in early..... to learn these advanced root trees (designed to get first downs)

Our kid in Uniform

WHat I'm saying is that the book isn't written on Schotty yet, there's been no definitive conclusion. The most compelling evidence is that he ran slightly below avg offenses, but he also did so with pretty piss poor situations at QB. My assertion is that the output is about what you'd exepct given then talent he was given. Therefore, he's probably done an average job so far.

I suspect the book is about 3/4 done. He's coming off his first coordinator gig, going to work for a previously successful head coach, with a young QB who's generally held in fairly high regard. If he doesn't make it work there early, he'll be out of the coordinator business for good sooner rather than later.

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Turner, Norv.

I can't explain what's going on in SD, but Turner won SB's as an OC.. you know how that works

Success correlates to turnovers. There's actually a degre of merit to that even though I'm 100% positive that's not what Smash was saying whenever he stated that. Watching Harbaugh cut Smith down from an abhorrent amount to 10 this season says coaching has its role. They don't design plays to create turnovers obviously, but you can't deny that some game plans are designed to protect the football and some aren't. The former is clearly what this team needed and that's clearly not the game Schott looks to run.

I don't know how you can seperate TO's from bad QB's. In 2010, we were actually 9th in the league in turnover's per drive. With a second year QB. Is that an anomoly, probably? But Look how a team in a similiar position (Detroit) faired

jets TO's per drive

2009 19th

2010 9th

Detroit

2009 32nd

2010 15th

In 2011 Detroit went down to 8th in the league To's per drive. What is more likely, that Scott linehan suddenly learned to coach in 2011 or that his young QB took giant leap up (aided by Megatron) (incidently, i know stafford missed most of 2010, but he had 1 int through 3 games in 2010 and was likely to improve upon his 20 INT's in 10 games he pitched in 09)

---Harbaugh did an outstanding job this year with Smith. It remains to be seen if it's replicated once opposing DC's have more tape to review, but even given that, I've never accused Schotty of doing a "great" job here

The main problem with this is that there's no case to even make the argument with. It's really not an insane notion to evaluate a coach or player based solely on results and results alone. At the end of the day when a coach is handed that much variety over this large of a tenure and the results are that consistent, you're better off erring on the side of inferences from that.

Meh, we jsut drafted two guys with less the stellar stats based on context. Coples loafed cause of school issues, Hill was in run first offense. I'm not arguing that Schotty should've been retained (he had to go for sanchez), or even that he did a good job here. I'm simply saying this notion that he was incompetant is silly, imo

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I suspect the book is about 3/4 done. He's coming off his first coordinator gig, going to work for a previously successful head coach, with a young QB who's generally held in fairly high regard. If he doesn't make it work there early, he'll be out of the coordinator business for good sooner rather than later.

Josh McDaniels just got the job in NE after makign a mess of Bradford.

But yeah, I agree, he'll get a few seasons in St louis and if he doesn't make something happen his options will be limited. They have nothing at WR, so I don't know how expectations could be high

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Coaches that are proven failures eventually stop getting jobs or take lesser jobs, see Edwards, Herm.. The worst defense in football 2 years ago was probably the Broncos, their DC ws fired, spent a year out of football and is now a LB coach in baltimore. Schotty doesn't have that kind of track record, yet people like Smash are insinuating that he was so incompetant that success was impossible with him.

WHat I'm saying is that the book isn't written on Schotty yet, there's been no definitive conclusion. The most compelling evidence is that he ran slightly below avg offenses, but he also did so with pretty piss poor situations at QB. My assertion is that the output is about what you'd exepct given then talent he was given. Therefore, he's probably done an average job so far.

Herm is only out of football because he chose to be out of football. Im sure he could have gotten a chance again to be an assistant but at this stage of his life its head coach or bust. For whatever reason all these guys seem to get jobs over and over in the league. The few I can think of who didnt are Jim Fassel who seems to be blacklisted because of the Super Bowl and the stint where Billick replaced him and Billick who never seems to be mentioned for any jobs. All I can think of is that people considered him the beneficiary of a great GM in Baltimore. Look at Josh McDaniels. Brutal in Denver. Worse in St. Louis. New England couldnt wait to bring him back.

That said I actually agree that Schotty got around average or just below average results. He did some quirky things that didnt work and I think takes far too many dangerous chances with the talent pool he had to work with, but the bottom line results were more or less what would be expected. But he didnt mesh with the coach, even though Schotty was far more successful running the ball than he was passing. Im surprised St. Louis took him because of the QB situation. Bradford was a disaster last year and Schotty had two chances with high draft picks and Clemens was a colossal dud and Sanchez struggled. All I can guess is Fisher liked what he saw out of Sanchez and the run heavy emphasis the team had from 08-10. I love Fisher as a coach but he is as conservative as they get, Maybe between the last name and the last few years he saw a perfect fit.

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In 2011 Detroit went down to 8th in the league To's per drive. What is more likely, that Scott linehan suddenly learned to coach in 2011 or that his young QB took giant leap up (aided by Megatron) (incidently, i know stafford missed most of 2010, but he had 1 int through 3 games in 2010 and was likely to improve upon his 20 INT's in 10 games he pitched in 09)

Of course the QB being awesome trumps the rest of this nonsense. The whole point of the Smith corralary is that it's actually possible to not turn the ball over 34 times even if your quarterback blows donkey balls.

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Herm is only out of football because he chose to be out of football. Im sure he could have gotten a chance again to be an assistant but at this stage of his life its head coach or bust. For whatever reason all these guys seem to get jobs over and over in the league. The few I can think of who didnt are Jim Fassel who seems to be blacklisted because of the Super Bowl and the stint where Billick replaced him and Billick who never seems to be mentioned for any jobs. All I can think of is that people considered him the beneficiary of a great GM in Baltimore. Look at Josh McDaniels. Brutal in Denver. Worse in St. Louis. New England couldnt wait to bring him back.

That said I actually agree that Schotty got around average or just below average results. He did some quirky things that didnt work and I think takes far too many dangerous chances with the talent pool he had to work with, but the bottom line results were more or less what would be expected. But he didnt mesh with the coach, even though Schotty was far more successful running the ball than he was passing. Im surprised St. Louis took him because of the QB situation. Bradford was a disaster last year and Schotty had two chances with high draft picks and Clemens was a colossal dud and Sanchez struggled. All I can guess is Fisher liked what he saw out of Sanchez and the run heavy emphasis the team had from 08-10. I love Fisher as a coach but he is as conservative as they get, Maybe between the last name and the last few years he saw a perfect fit.

By the same token, and if we were looking for any excuses for Schottenheimer, we might be able to say that he potentially had too much say in personnel in his time here and, as has been proven over and over, coaches are awful GMs. That he got the chance to rubber stamp Clemens and then Sanchez cost him huge. Granted, both of those guys may be/were just poorly coached, but if he had a stronger GM who was able to find him a QB, the Schottenheimer story might look a lot different today.

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jets TO's per drive

2009 19th

2010 9th

Detroit

2009 32nd

2010 15th

In 2011 Detroit went down to 8th in the league To's per drive. What is more likely, that Scott linehan suddenly learned to coach in 2011 or that his young QB took giant leap up (aided by Megatron) (incidently, i know stafford missed most of 2010, but he had 1 int through 3 games in 2010 and was likely to improve upon his 20 INT's in 10 games he pitched in 09)

I think it can be difficult to determine just how much of the differences come from coaching and how much come from the player just stinking. I had recently run something on completion % vs quality of opponent for Sanchez, Stafford, Freeman, Ryan, Flacco, etc...all the way down to the 2002 bust class. What surprised me was that Sanchez was the only guy out of all of them, including Harrington who was a disaster, to never have a run that saw him perform above average over any 8 week stretch in the first 3 years of his career. I would have liked to have gone further back but didnt have a neat enough listing of numbers to just plug and play into it. I have to imagine some of that is because the coaching for these other players dumbed it down to try to make things easier to build their confidence.

Surprisingly the drop in YPC, which I killed Sanchez and Schotty for, seemed like a relatively normal progression. Now I think Sanchez got there in a different way (i.e. Staffords YPC is below average but I think he had at least 16 big plays last year) in that most of his passes are around that average range while others have some short throws mixed in with the big ones, but the end results were the same. Sanchez fumbles way too often but I dont think its as if he was nothing to attept to work with. I think both the head coach and the OC were just not the right tandem to be working with a raw rookie.

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Of course the QB being awesome trumps the rest of this nonsense. The whole point of the Smith corralary is that it's actually possible to not turn the ball over 34 times even if your quarterback blows donkey balls.

Like we did in 2010? There was obviously serious issues on theoffensive side of the ball in 2011

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By the same token, and if we were looking for any excuses for Schottenheimer, we might be able to say that he potentially had too much say in personnel in his time here and, as has been proven over and over, coaches are awful GMs. That he got the chance to rubber stamp Clemens and then Sanchez cost him huge. Granted, both of those guys may be/were just poorly coached, but if he had a stronger GM who was able to find him a QB, the Schottenheimer story might look a lot different today.

Maybe. The only reason I have a hard time buying it is because he had two decent veterans to work with and didnt get much out of them. I dont watch enough of the other teams to get much of an idea how the coaches operate all the time, but it just seemed that Schotty never tried to work to the strengths of his players. It was more about his offense (or Rexs versions of it from 09-11) and getting the guys to buy into his offense. Maybe that works for coaches that have had great success in the past like Shannahan but I think Schotty should have been more flexible with some of the things they ran.

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Herm is only out of football because he chose to be out of football. Im sure he could have gotten a chance again to be an assistant but at this stage of his life its head coach or bust. For whatever reason all these guys seem to get jobs over and over in the league. The few I can think of who didnt are Jim Fassel who seems to be blacklisted because of the Super Bowl and the stint where Billick replaced him and Billick who never seems to be mentioned for any jobs. All I can think of is that people considered him the beneficiary of a great GM in Baltimore. Look at Josh McDaniels. Brutal in Denver. Worse in St. Louis. New England couldnt wait to bring him back.

Disagree.. Guys that have some modicum of success are given chance after chance. Guys that never have success get an immediate demotion (like the DC Martingdale from Denver i mentioned)

Remember 2006, Schotty's offense was seen as innovative, almost all Jets fans were thrilled with what he did with the noodle arm and no running game. The only difference brtween Chad in 2008 and Chad in 2006 is Miami could run the ball with 2 former top 5 picks, we couldn't with Kevan barlow as our lead back..

McDaniels is the same way, NE"s 2007 offense was record setting. People will hire him until he absolutely proves he sucks cause they're looking to recreate that. Nobdoy whose never had success keeps getting chance after chance, it doesn't work like that

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Like we did in 2010? There was obviously serious issues on theoffensive side of the ball in 2011

Thats true. For as much as everyone got on Sanchez the biggest controllable problem for the Jets was Wayne Hunter starting at RT. It destroyed the running game which carried the offense for most of the last 3 years. The Jets had no control of the Mangold injury, but whatever convinced them to not keep Woody last season was the biggest mistake they could have made. They had nothing to fall back on when Sanchez began to fall apart.

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Maybe. The only reason I have a hard time buying it is because he had two decent veterans to work with and didnt get much out of them. I dont watch enough of the other teams to get much of an idea how the coaches operate all the time, but it just seemed that Schotty never tried to work to the strengths of his players. It was more about his offense (or Rexs versions of it from 09-11) and getting the guys to buy into his offense. Maybe that works for coaches that have had great success in the past like Shannahan but I think Schotty should have been more flexible with some of the things they ran.

I'd agree with that. I was just trying to find a possible reason why Schottenheimer could get the rehire and be considered a young genius despite his underwhelming body of work. Believe me, I feel kinda bad for Sam Bradford right now.

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9th in the league in TO's per drive. Why is that bad?

I really don't see the need to extrapolate total TO's like you and Jason keep doing. It's a total that correlates fairly well conventionally and the indirect effects going into any efforts at standardizing make it essentially useless.

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I really don't see the need to extrapolate total TO's like you and Jason keep doing. It's a total that correlates fairly well conventionally and the indirect effects going into any efforts at standardizing make it essentially useless.

Ok, they were tied for 8th lowest in TO's in 2010.. feel better? The Giants had 42

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We've really gotten back to the point of debating whether or not Schotty sucked at his job? For those of you who forgot, the Jets even made it quite apparent that they thought so about 4 months back. Oh yeah, and there's that whole thing where he just quite clearly did.

Let's put it this way, it's a pretty reliable rule that when the only evidence you have is an endless list of excuses for why someone doesn't suck at what they do, the reality is that they actually just suck at what they do. That applies for everyone in every job, whether your name is Schotty, Sanchez, or Smith.

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Let's put it this way, it's a pretty reliable rule that when the only evidence you have is an endless list of excuses for why someone doesn't suck at what they do, the reality is that they actually just suck at what they do. That applies for everyone in every job, whether your name is Schotty, Sanchez, or Smith.

It's eerily similar to the Sanchez supporters. Those arguing in favor really seem to go to a whole lot of trouble to try and prove their point. The other end of the spectrum doesn't have to do much.

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Because one year Harbaugh got less TOs out of Smith playing in the weakest division in football.

So no excuses for Schotty this year!

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It's eerily similar to the Sanchez supporters. Those arguing in favor really seem to go to a whole lot of trouble to try and prove their point. The other end of the spectrum doesn't have to do much.

I think that scenario will be a dominant message board theme for this whole regime, unfortunately.

"Well, Rex because Schottenheimer because Sanchez because Tannenbaum because Woody"

Edited by T0mShane
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What is there to explain smash, the bottom corner is playing off and darts back at snap, the read is McNight for a fairly easy first down. I've already said I would've had someone run a clearing route, I really don't understand what is so complicated. What I and anyone who isn't bonkers can plainly see is an easy first down if the QB makes a fairly simple read. He threw it to the worst possible choice. Your guy blew it.. The thread dbatesman linked has more explanation (including Holmes and Plax running lazy routes, you'll like that)

I mean seriously Smash, you really think Schotty doesn't run the same types of plays as everyone else. It's absurd. You must think you're smarter then Jeff Fischer (who scooped him up to be OC). You must also realize that the vast majority of people, including his own teammates know that Sanchez is the problem. But here's smash, arrogant as hell, claiming that only he and a band of looney's know better then the entire football establishment.

Schott sucks and a rehire isn't indicative of anything, but hitches are a staple in pretty much any offense and Walsh used to run that play all the time.

Chan I think the coverage was the same on both sides of the field and Plax was probably the first read that progressed from Sanchez left to his right. And RJF is definetely correct that a re hire means nothing in shottys case. Also when Walsh ran that play I would bet my life he cleared out some areas and did not have every receiver running the same basic route 2 -3 yards short of the first down marker. You can look at a play and say he should have went there but its not that simple and I think you know that. Especially when you have 5 guys doing the same thing.

How many times our WR's ran short of the marker during Shottys time here was startling and how it was not corrected was even more ridiculous. When simple problems do not get fixed I look at the coach. When you refer to Shottys plays being similar to others around the league to some extent you would probably be correct but that does not make him a good coach nor does it mean he mixes up the plays well.

I do not think he handled Sanchez well at all I think he babied him and thats not what Sanchez needed. I think we will see a difference with Sparano and I think we have already seen some difference in the way the Jets drafted this year since we actully went and got the big tall fast WR we should have drafted when we first drafted Sanchez. If Im wrong about all this and Sanchez does not start to cut down on the mistakes and up his completion percentage Ill be the first one to back down on the arguement but I think the kid deserves a chance.

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Handselectedness vs It'severyoneelse'sfault. Smith/Vlad/Sanchez are secretly good vs Holmes/The Line are secretly bad, Different verbiage but at the end of the day it's still the same wet crap sitting on the tip of the camel's nose.

RJF I hope your not trying to say I think Vlad and Smaith are good players Im the first guy to say they should be tossed to the curb. From what I see the only thing we disagree on is Sanchez and time will tell who is right and who is wrong.

And dont insult me with comparisons to Gato thats just brutal. I prefer the retard pics to that comparison :)

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We've really gotten back to the point of debating whether or not Schotty sucked at his job? For those of you who forgot, the Jets even made it quite apparent that they thought so about 4 months back. Oh yeah, and there's that whole thing where he just quite clearly did.

Let's put it this way, it's a pretty reliable rule that when the only evidence you have is an endless list of excuses for why someone doesn't suck at what they do, the reality is that they actually just suck at what they do. That applies for everyone in every job, whether your name is Schotty, Sanchez, or Smith.

No, the issue has always been in regards to the QB.. SMash Viliian and the other Sanchezites scream it's not Sanchez, it's Schotty, cause he's completely incompetent. All I'm saying is I don't think that is a valid idea. I could give two sh*ts about Schotty in the long term, or even who we bring in. At the end of the day, to me, all that matters is Sanchez taking the next step. I've seen too many OC's go from genius to idiot and back again depending on the quality of their QB. Im pretty well convinced that the quality of QB is by far the most important factor..

So short of hiring a true luminary like Bill Walsh, which Sparano isn't, then these guys are for the most part interchangeable to me.

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I do not think he handled Sanchez well at all I think he babied him and thats not what Sanchez needed. I think we will see a difference with Sparano and I think we have already seen some difference in the way the Jets drafted this year since we actully went and got the big tall fast WR we should have drafted when we first drafted Sanchez. If Im wrong about all this and Sanchez does not start to cut down on the mistakes and up his completion percentage Ill be the first one to back down on the arguement but I think the kid deserves a chance.

Then knock him for that, cause at least it's possibly a valid criticism (and one that i agree with, especially from Rex).. This root tree and play design nonsense is ******* absurd, there all running variations of the same sh*t...

He absolutely can be held accountable for Sanchez/Clemens lack of development, but even then you dig deeper and ponder things like the sh*tty Oline in 07 and 11, the lack of receiving talent in 09, Sanchez's poor LCF, etc..

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I think that scenario will be a dominant message board theme for this whole regime, unfortunately.

"Well, Rex because Schottenheimer because Sanchez because Tannenbaum because Woody"

what a ray of sunshine you are :D

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I think that scenario will be a dominant message board theme for this whole regime, unfortunately.

"Well, Rex because Schottenheimer because Sanchez because Tannenbaum because Woody"

The funny part is that doing this with the Mets and Madoff is actually legit. The Jets have no excuse.

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No, the issue has always been in regards to the QB.. SMash Viliian and the other Sanchezites scream it's not Sanchez, it's Schotty, cause he's completely incompetent. All I'm saying is I don't think that is a valid idea. I could give two sh*ts about Schotty in the long term, or even who we bring in. At the end of the day, to me, all that matters is Sanchez taking the next step. I've seen too many OC's go from genius to idiot and back again depending on the quality of their QB. Im pretty well convinced that the quality of QB is by far the most important factor..

So short of hiring a true luminary like Bill Walsh, which Sparano isn't, then these guys are for the most part interchangeable to me.

I'm far from arguing that Sanchez isn't issue numero uno when it comes to the potential future success of this team, but the entire concept that this fact suddenly excuses the ineptitude of anyone and everyone else is moronic. Outside of some people having this insatiable desire to be able to place all of the team's woes on one single person, so that way the team will be magically fixed with a single change, there's no reality in it whatsoever. Sanchez sucks, and of course that is the team's biggest issue, but that doesn't mean the Jets should keep around every other dipsh*t player, coach, or front office person who has shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that they suck in their own right completely independent of that fact.

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"read"??? Four of the five receivers did not even run as far as the first down marker. Horrible play design.

You know they're allowed to move after the catch, right? It's not Ultimate Frisbee here.

Edited by SenorGato
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