Jets Building towards a 4-3 Defense???

[SenorGato]

I wanted the Jets to trade out of 16 and go into the 20's and Suh is a different story since he plays in a 4-3 and is a menace at DT disrupting every QB he faces Coples is no Suh.... its possible he could be a Seymour but thats a reach as well and forget about Ngata. You could get a DE to play in the 3-4 later in the draft IMO

Sorry guys I meant to say base 3-4 where I bolded in my post I quoted . I think drafting DE's to play in a 3-4 is not a position you use an early pick on. NT is a different story if a beast comes along . 3-4 DE's never have a big impact its usually the OLB on the weak side same reason why a lot of people say dont draft a safety early. I just think Coples talents go to waste .

Holy sh*t he just said Richard Seymour was a reach. Future HOFer Richard Seymour was a reach...Rotfl.

[Smashmouth]

I think fans are still tainted by Mangini here. Just because a coach spent time coaching technique in a 43 scheme doesn't mean he can't coach technique in a system where we run 2, 3 and 4 down lineman fronts. Mangini was one of the only coaches I've ever seen that was completely incapable of coaching outside of his scheme. Technique is technique, i would think much of it is transferrable one scheme to the next. If the position coach is capable that is.

OP look at the great 3-4 Defenses using the Giants of 86 as the example. You load up on Talented LB's with the early picks you get your DL in the middle rounds . The most Important part of a 3-4 defense is the LB's . The DL have an important Job but you would have never seen Parcells spend a 1st round pick on DL in a 3-4 and certainly not a DE. Marshall's career was made on the coat tails of Lawrence Taylor . The DL's main Job in the 3-4 is different than in the 4-3 where you run more stunts to get to the QB and need smaller faster LB's the whole concept is different. The biggest weakness on the NY jets besides not having a safety is our LB's namely Scott who is broken down because of what hes been asked to do the past 8 years Thomas whos 33 coming off one of the worst injuries you can come baclk from torn achillies and Pace who is a guy we expected double digit sacks from in the 3-4 every year and never got it once. Not to mention they are all slow .

I love Davis as a player but does he fit our scheme in the 3-4 ? Hes 235 with the personnel the Jets have I would lean more to a 4-3 in the coming years thats not to say exclusively because we know Rex likes to change things up but Im talking about getting a scenario of Coples Wilk at DE and Pouha Devito Ellis in a DT rotation similar to what the cowboys ran in the early 90's when their defense dominated and start drafting faster LB's like a Demario Davis and Phase out players like Thomas and Pace. Right now I think our best Blitzing LB is Harris so move him to the outside (weak side) and play Davis in the middle with Pace and Thomas rotating in many positions such as DE and OLB this way you keep everyone fresh with rotations for the older guys rather than us getting worn out in the 4th Quarter like we have seen

[Smashmouth]

Holy sh*t he just said Richard Seymour was a reach. Future HOFer Richard Seymour was a reach...Rotfl.

Why did belichick trade Seymour for a first round pick ??????? To get value at another position and get a replacement in a later round.

Stop putting words in my mouth when you have no clue as to WTF your talking about. I said comparing Coples to Seymour was a reach take some reading comprehension classes before you act liike a baffoon

[SenorGato]

Why did belichick trade Seymour for a first round pick ??????? To get value at another position and get a replacement in a later round.

Stop putting words in my mouth when you have no clue as to WTF your talking about. I said comparing Coples to Seymour was a reach take some reading comprehension classes before you act liike a baffoon

Why did he get a first round pick for a supposedly declining 3-4 DE? Value at what other position? What if he just wanted value for a player he couldn't pay and heading into his 30's might fall off?

The Pats won 3 SBs building their D around Seymour...a lowly 3-4 DE.

[Smashmouth]

Why did he get a first round pick for a supposedly declining 3-4 DE? Value at what other position? What if he just wanted value for a player he couldn't pay and heading into his 30's might fall off?

The Pats won 3 SBs building their D around Seymour...a lowly 3-4 DE.

Seymour was 28 and not declining ....the Pats won 3 SB's with solid LB's and a great secondary. Dont make it sound like they built the team around him since they did not. Sorry but if you give me the choice of a 3-4 defensive end no matter how great I'll take the Great OLB every single time and any 3-4 coach will tell you that. Belichick took the first round pick for Seymour because the POSITION was easy to replace not necessarily the player he wanted to replace his aging LB's and picks seemed much more important to him. For what its worth Belichick did not do such a great job replacing his LB's and thats why his defense has fallen off the opast few years. But the young guys he has now started to come on at the end of last year and he just had a nice draft so you might expect that defense to start coming back which scares the hell out of me.

[SenorGato]

Yeah that 6th overall pick future HOF 3-4 DE was living off those other guys on the Pats! That gritty LB group opened up their own damn lanes! Seymour just happened to be there.

[Integrity28]

OP look at the great 3-4 Defenses using the Giants of 86 as the example. You load up on Talented LB's with the early picks you get your DL in the middle rounds . The most Important part of a 3-4 defense is the LB's . The DL have an important Job but you would have never seen Parcells spend a 1st round pick on DL in a 3-4 and certainly not a DE. Marshall's career was made on the coat tails of Lawrence Taylor . The DL's main Job in the 3-4 is different than in the 4-3 where you run more stunts to get to the QB and need smaller faster LB's the whole concept is different. The biggest weakness on the NY jets besides not having a safety is our LB's namely Scott who is broken down because of what hes been asked to do the past 8 years Thomas whos 33 coming off one of the worst injuries you can come baclk from torn achillies and Pace who is a guy we expected double digit sacks from in the 3-4 every year and never got it once. Not to mention they are all slow .

I love Davis as a player but does he fit our scheme in the 3-4 ? Hes 235 with the personnel the Jets have I would lean more to a 4-3 in the coming years thats not to say exclusively because we know Rex likes to change things up but Im talking about getting a scenario of Coples Wilk at DE and Pouha Devito Ellis in a DT rotation similar to what the cowboys ran in the early 90's when their defense dominated and start drafting faster LB's like a Demario Davis and Phase out players like Thomas and Pace. Right now I think our best Blitzing LB is Harris so move him to the outside (weak side) and play Davis in the middle with Pace and Thomas rotating in many positions such as DE and OLB this way you keep everyone fresh with rotations for the older guys rather than us getting worn out in the 4th Quarter like we have seen

I'm not even sure what you are responding to at this point, you've pretty much made this post a catch-all of scatter brained snippets about players, where they get drafted, etc. Don't reply to my posts and then not actually address anything in it, lol. It makes my head hurt.

I was responding about Dinbar and the simple possibility that his hiring as a position coach is not a blatant signal that we are switching to a 4-3 defense. Rex is still here right? And Pettine? So what if Dunbar was a line coach, teaching 43 technique before he got hired here? I'm sure his job will be to teach the techniques necessary for Ryan's multiple front defense. Which will include some 34 and 43, amongst other things.

[Smashmouth]

I'm not even sure what you are responding to at this point, you've pretty much made this post a catch-all of scatter brained snippets about players, where they get drafted, etc. Don't reply to my posts and then not actually address anything in it, lol. It makes my head hurt.

I was responding about Dinbar and the simple possibility that his hiring as a position coach is not a blatant signal that we are switching to a 4-3 defense. Rex is still here right? And Pettine? So what if Dunbar was a line coach, teaching 43 technique before he got hired here? I'm sure his job will be to teach the techniques necessary for Ryan's multiple front defense. Which will include some 34 and 43, amongst other things.

Same way you blabbed on about Mangini a guy who was trying to transition the team to a 3-4 from a 4-3 and just jumped the gun a bit ? Guess he didnt do too bad a job other than coaching since Rex took the defense mangini built and made them tops in the NFL for a few years.... Sorry I did not directly answer your question as I was responding to multiple posts in the thread not just yours.

More than just the Dunbar Hiring we drafted a small LB in the 3rd round and a DE in the first when we were already loaded with solid 3-4 lineman arguably the deepest position on the team. Hey the Jets have drafted like Idiots my entire life the only time they really drafted good was in the late 70's early 80's I expected the trend to continue.

[SenorGato]

Holy sh*t Davis is not undersized. Bowman was an All Pro inside a 3-4 and he might be lighter. Davis weighs the same as Scotf's goal weight for this season. More Smash myths.

We're loaded with run stuffers like DeVito/Pouha...then depth like the great Marcus Dixon. Guys who are actually threats to the QB now number two on the DL, both the last two first rounders.

[Smashmouth]

Holy sh*t Davis is not undersized. Bowman was an All Pro inside a 3-4 and he might be lighter. Davis weighs the same as Scotf's goal weight for this season. More Smash myths.

Scotts goal weight was 235 ?? Yeah you have a clue

[SenorGato]

Scotts goal weight was 235 ?? Yeah you have a clue

Meh 240...all of 5 pounds. Oh noes. Not to mention that Scott started his career in the 235-240 range...Or that there's a couple of really talented 3-4 ILBs playing at a similar weight right now...Or that the Steelers took the LIGHTER Sean Spence a few picks later....Doesn't count in Smashworld.

[Integrity28]

Same way you blabbed on about Mangini a guy who was trying to transition the team to a 3-4 from a 4-3 and just jumped the gun a bit ? Guess he didnt do too bad a job other than coaching since Rex took the defense mangini built and made them tops in the NFL for a few years.... Sorry I did not directly answer your question as I was responding to multiple posts in the thread not just yours.

More than just the Dunbar Hiring we drafted a small LB in the 3rd round and a DE in the first when we were already loaded with solid 3-4 lineman arguably the deepest position on the team. Hey the Jets have drafted like Idiots my entire life the only time they really drafted good was in the late 70's early 80's I expected the trend to continue.

The Mangini example was used to convey that MOST coaches are capable of coaching technique regardless of scheme. He was not. I made that point clearly... your ramblings fail, as usual, to make any point.

I'm confused if you are making the case for us converting to a 4-3, upset with the Dunbar hiring, upset that we drafted Coples and Davis, you can't grasp that we run multiple fronts, etc... you've essentially taken a specific discussion and puked it into a catch-all whine-fest about the Jets in general, where you once again are representing the "I'm pulling my hair out with outrage contingency". So, going back to the original topic - I do not thing we are switching to a 4-3, perhaps we'll see more of it, but not a complete switch. I think fans and media are extrapolating things like Dunbar and the size/shape of the players we drafted into a lot of things that just won't be true... its happening on offense too. I keep seeing media reference all the players we've added with "option offense" ties from college... but do you really think we are installing an option offense? I don't. Just your typical May conjecture because there's nothing else to write about.

[Integrity28]

Meh 240...all of 5 pounds. Oh noes. Not to mention that Scott started his career in the 235-240 range...Or that there's a couple of really talented 3-4 ILBs playing at a similar weight right now...Or that the Steelers took the LIGHTER Sean Spence a few picks later....Doesn't count in Smashworld.

5 pounds? We MUST be changing schemes. Tell tale sign right thurrrr... mmm hmmmm.... derp derp

[dbatesman]

Can one of the mods just take all of the three dozen "ZOMG GUYSES R WE 4-3 NOW???/?" threads, merge them together, and sticky them?

[flgreen]

I thought they moved Coples to a 4-3 DT his senior year

No they moved him outside. You probably read the article on him about pad level. It was a good read. The author said they moved him to DT. Then he enclosed several pictures to illustrate his point, and in every one he was at 4-3 DE.

I think the Author just misspoke.

He was moved out side and struggled. Soon as Rex drafted him and pronounced him starter Ryan said he was going to play inside. He said there were two type of pass rushers. "Ones that make the QB step up, and ones that make the QB's step back. Coples is going to make the QB step back"

Fortunately, the Jets have both types in Maybin, and Coples. As I said, in passing situations, expect to see Coples at DT, and Maybin hand in the dirt off his right shoulder. Should be fun

[flgreen]

I just did some checking. Actually what NC did was move him from left side DT to right side DE

From Rex's post draft presser. When asked abot Coples lack of production as a senior

"So I think maybe he did not meet those as a player, but the thing that I know, being a defensive line coach for a number of years, is that when he switched from the left side to the right side, and a lot of his time was spent as an inside tackle in a 4-3, then they move him to right side defensive end in a 4-3, now that takes some time and some adjustments. Everything you’re used to working off, a right-handed stance, now you’re down to a left-handed stance."

When asked about how he intended to use him

On how Coples can become the pass rusher on defense the Jets need…

RYAN: It is a lot harder to rush a passer from a 3-4 inside. Muhammad had a good season and he only had three sacks if you look at that. But some guys cause production. I think Quinton and Muhammad both cause production. They’re just those types of guys. But they can get production themselves. I think Mo is really going to ascend this year, I truly believe that. He reminds me of a young Richard Seymour and Seymour would get five sacks a year.

It’s tougher down there but we look at it as we were at our best when we had Shaun Ellis moving inside to rush the passer. We picked up Trevor Pryce and he did a good job. He only had one sack but how much production did he cause? I think those are things you look for. I’m excited with the outside guy we have, Aaron Maybin. The old saying is that the defensive tackle’s job is to push the quarterback back and the outside guy’s job is to push the quarterback forward. I think with this addition, we can push that quarterback back a little bit.

[Smashmouth]

No they moved him outside. You probably read the article on him about pad level. It was a good read. The author said they moved him to DT. Then he enclosed several pictures to illustrate his point, and in every one he was at 4-3 DE.

I think the Author just misspoke.

He was moved out side and struggled. Soon as Rex drafted him and pronounced him starter Ryan said he was going to play inside. He said there were two type of pass rushers. "Ones that make the QB step up, and ones that make the QB's step back. Coples is going to make the QB step back"

Fortunately, the Jets have both types in Maybin, and Coples. As I said, in passing situations, expect to see Coples at DT, and Maybin hand in the dirt off his right shoulder. Should be fun

I just did some checking. Actually what NC did was move him from left side DT to right side DE

From Rex's post draft presser. When asked abot Coples lack of production as a senior

"So I think maybe he did not meet those as a player, but the thing that I know, being a defensive line coach for a number of years, is that when he switched from the left side to the right side, and a lot of his time was spent as an inside tackle in a 4-3, then they move him to right side defensive end in a 4-3, now that takes some time and some adjustments. Everything you’re used to working off, a right-handed stance, now you’re down to a left-handed stance."

When asked about how he intended to use him

On how Coples can become the pass rusher on defense the Jets need…

RYAN: It is a lot harder to rush a passer from a 3-4 inside. Muhammad had a good season and he only had three sacks if you look at that. But some guys cause production. I think Quinton and Muhammad both cause production. They’re just those types of guys. But they can get production themselves. I think Mo is really going to ascend this year, I truly believe that. He reminds me of a young Richard Seymour and Seymour would get five sacks a year.

It’s tougher down there but we look at it as we were at our best when we had Shaun Ellis moving inside to rush the passer. We picked up Trevor Pryce and he did a good job. He only had one sack but how much production did he cause? I think those are things you look for. I’m excited with the outside guy we have, Aaron Maybin. The old saying is that the defensive tackle’s job is to push the quarterback back and the outside guy’s job is to push the quarterback forward. I think with this addition, we can push that quarterback back a little bit.

Thank you for clearing this up for these guys to read. I think the 16th pick was too early to pick Coples He very well might create some opportunities for LB's but we could have got that player in the later rounds if we traded out of the spot. Some people here actully think Coples will be lined up on the outside as an OLB at well as DL yet another spot hes got no exp doing.. What this all comes down too is we drafted a DE for the 3-4 who will be trying to create things for our aging OLB's and Aaron Maybin who is a one dimentional player that did nothing for the last 4 games of the season last year. ONE DIMENTIONAL PLAYERS MAKE YOU PREDICTABLE AND THATS EXACTLY WHY MAYBEN WAS SHUT DOWN AT THE END OF LAST SEASON Expect more of the same this year.

Once again lets see how it all works out.

[bitonti]

i dont buy that the DL was such a strength before Coples.

I also don't agree with statements that equate the strength of the DL to that of the corners. the Corners are a strength. Revis is all world and Cro is a pro bowler with Kyle Wilson at nickel.

mean while the DL has no all pros, no pro bowlers, no one with more than 6 sacks on the year. They had Pouha who is 33 and very good, Wilk who is young and good, and who else? Devito was banged up alot. Ellis could get deported. Dixon is a good up and comer but let's not pretend like they were stacked on the DL before Coples. They lacked a true star on the d-line.

[bitonti]

I think the 16th pick was too early to pick Coples

Coples should have been taken earlier than 16. he was value. are you saying he was a reach??

[Smashmouth]

i dont buy that the DL was such a strength before Coples.

I also don't agree with statements that equate the strength of the DL to that of the corners. the Corners are a strength. Revis is all world and Cro is a pro bowler with Kyle Wilson at nickel.

mean while the DL has no all pros, no pro bowlers, no one with more than 6 sacks on the year. They had Pouha who is 33 and very good, Wilk who is young and good, and who else? Devito was banged up alot. Ellis could get deported. Dixon is a good up and comer but let's not pretend like they were stacked on the DL before Coples. They lacked a true star on the d-line.

In the 3-4 you are not looking for sacks from your defensive lineman so why do you make that arguement and judging them on sacks ? Many people consider Pouha one of the top DT's in the game hes certainly not the best but I would have no problem calling him top 5 at NT . Not many DL in the 3-4 ever get more than 5 or 6 sacks and they certainly do not do it consistently

[Smashmouth]

Coples should have been taken earlier than 16. he was value. are you saying he was a reach??

Never said he was a reach at all. I said if it were me I would not spend a 16th over all pick on a DE in the 3-4 . Just like some people feel safties should not be taken in the first round I think value can be had in the mid rounds when it comes to 3-4 DL . Just an opinion man.

[JustInFudge]

Never said he was a reach at all. I said if it were me I would not spend a 16th over all pick on a DE in the 3-4 . Just like some people feel safties should not be taken in the first round I think value can be had in the mid rounds when it comes to 3-4 DL . Just an opinion man.

He's a versatile player. He was BAP. And no, you cant find 6-6 298lb players with his athleticism anywhere in the draft. Big boys who can move go early. Thats the draft. Look at Poe, nobody was taking about him till his combine and ended up going before Coples who is 100x the Football player. He fits the scheme. He's another player Rex can move around in multiple fronts.

[Smashmouth]

He's a versatile player. He was BAP. And no, you cant find 6-6 298lb players with his athleticism anywhere in the draft. Big boys who can move go early. Thats the draft. Look at Poe, nobody was taking about him till his combine and ended up going before Coples who is 100x the Football player. He fits the scheme. He's another player Rex can move around in multiple fronts.

JIF with POE were talking NT and I have stated in that instance I would make the pick because true NT's are not easy to come by, DE's in the 3-4 are. I hope the guy is a terror

[JustInFudge]

JIF with POE were talking NT and I have stated in that instance I would make the pick because true NT's are not easy to come by, DE's in the 3-4 are. I hope the guy is a terror

I understand that but you missed my point. Big guys go early. Especially ones that can move fast and are 6-6 298. Coples is that. And you also missed the part that I said he was versatile. He'll play 3-4 DE/OLB and you can play him anywhere on the line with Rex's multiple fronts using 46 and 4-3.

The Jets didnt just draft a 3-4 DE exclusively. They drafted a versatile player. There's a reason why Rex was working him out as at LB. He'll play all over the place for the Jets.

[slats]

I wanted the Jets to trade out of 16 and go into the 20's and Suh is a different story since he plays in a 4-3 and is a menace at DT disrupting every QB he faces Coples is no Suh.... its possible he could be a Seymour but thats a reach as well and forget about Ngata. You could get a DE to play in the 3-4 later in the draft IMO

Sorry guys I meant to say base 3-4 where I bolded in my post I quoted . I think drafting DE's to play in a 3-4 is not a position you use an early pick on. NT is a different story if a beast comes along . 3-4 DE's never have a big impact its usually the OLB on the weak side same reason why a lot of people say dont draft a safety early. I just think Coples talents go to waste .

The Jets reportedly had a deal to trade back with the Steelers. Obviously they decided not to pass up Coples. But who would you've wanted to take at their spot?

Coples was largely projected to be a top 10 pick, and I think the position he's going to play with the Jets is where he would've played just about anywhere: 3-4 DE, 4-3 DT. Those positions consistently get drafted at the top of every draft. A guy who consistently draws double teams, freeing up a teammate to make a play, but also having the ability to beat those double teams to make pays on his own has a lot of value to a defense. You're very much underestimating that value.

[Jets Voice of Reason]

The Jets reportedly had a deal to trade back with the Steelers. Obviously they decided not to pass up Coples. But who would you've wanted to take at their spot?

Coples was largely projected to be a top 10 pick, and I think the position he's going to play with the Jets is where he would've played just about anywhere: 3-4 DE, 4-3 DT. Those positions consistently get drafted at the top of every draft. A guy who consistently draws double teams, freeing up a teammate to make a play, but also having the ability to beat those double teams to make pays on his own has a lot of value to a defense. You're very much underestimating that value.

Coples will demand double teams. That in itself is a valuable asset to have on your team purely for the numbers game, considering we have Revis being able to go one-on-one on the back end.

[JustInFudge]

Coples will demand double teams. That in itself is a valuable asset to have on your team purely for the numbers game, considering we have Revis being able to go one-on-one on the back end.

Assuming Coples is what I think he is, the Jets have 2 versatile studs DE's for the next 5 years. If Ellis can come along, look out! They will make everyone behind them better.

[Smashmouth]

I understand that but you missed my point. Big guys go early. Especially ones that can move fast and are 6-6 298. Coples is that. And you also missed the part that I said he was versatile. He'll play 3-4 DE/OLB and you can play him anywhere on the line with Rex's multiple fronts using 46 and 4-3.

The Jets didnt just draft a 3-4 DE exclusively. They drafted a versatile player. There's a reason why Rex was working him out as at LB. He'll play all over the place for the Jets.

JIF I did not miss your point I agree with you. But in the case where it was the Big fast NT vs the versatile DE (who weighs 280 BTW) I would much rather spend the pick on the NT and get my DE's later in the draft. Like I said its just a preference same as when you bitched about taking safties early in the draft. I do not see Coples lining up at OLB ever . Rex stated he ran him through LB drills to test his stamina and he said this specifically. I know and understand the Jets run multiple fronts and maybe Coples will be the right guy lets just wait and see what happens.

[Smashmouth]

sorry double post

[Smashmouth]

... your ramblings fail, as usual, to make any point.

Like I told you more than once, my post was not only directed at you. Just like mafia, you think everything revolves around you and it does not. Im sorry I quoted you making you think thats all I was responding too. Next I time I quote you, Ill respond with one sentence so I dont get you all confused and sh*t you monkey loving bastard ...And yes most of this post was me trying to mess with you and be funny so dont get too mad at me magilla

[Smashmouth]

The Jets reportedly had a deal to trade back with the Steelers. Obviously they decided not to pass up Coples. But who would you've wanted to take at their spot?

Coples was largely projected to be a top 10 pick, and I think the position he's going to play with the Jets is where he would've played just about anywhere: 3-4 DE, 4-3 DT. Those positions consistently get drafted at the top of every draft. A guy who consistently draws double teams, freeing up a teammate to make a play, but also having the ability to beat those double teams to make pays on his own has a lot of value to a defense. You're very much underestimating that value.

Slats I thought it was the Steelers who backed out of that draft day trade not the Jets. I could be wrong but I thought thats how it went down

[slats]

Slats I thought it was the Steelers who backed out of that draft day trade not the Jets. I could be wrong but I thought thats how it went down

Reports were it was the Jets. They wanted to move down and take one of Coples or Irvin. When the Seahawks took Irvin, they pulled out of the deal to avoid possibly missing out on both players.

[Smashmouth]

Just read it Slats you were correct theJets backed out

[bitonti]

In the 3-4 you are not looking for sacks from your defensive lineman so why do you make that arguement and judging them on sacks ?

whether the Jets are 3-4 or 4-3 they will be in a 4 man front for 3rd down passing situations. this whole 3-4/4-3 discussion is only relevant on 1st and 2nd down. Shaun Ellis took over the Pats playoff game that's what a dominant DL can do, regardless of whether the team plays 30 or 40 fronts.

[#27TheDominator]

Smash, I think you are living in the past and lumping all 3-4 defenses together with that old school Giants/Who Dat Saints style 3-4. The Jets don't play that plodding 2 gap 3-4 much and certainly not exclusively. There aren't that many LTs and Ricky Jacksons running around and if there is a freakishly athlethic lineman, take him. Guys running sub 4.7 at 285 aren't exactly littering the playgrounds.