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Matt39

Alderson not happy with the Mets faithful

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Sandoval is a stud who missed half the season. It's a joke he won. As a lifelong Yankee fans the homers on both sides amuse me. Wright a mediocre player? When did that happen? The knocks on Jeter who is a first ballot hall of famer. Mets fans thinking Yankee fans are concerned about exhibition games when their team has the best record in baseball, while Mets fans are gearing up for the playoffs when they are in 3rd place in the wild card race?

Some of you guys are fricken nuts (on both sides of the fence).

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while Mets fans are gearing up for the playoffs when they are in 3rd place in the wild card race?.

Huh?

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Huh?

Somebody made a comment about Mets fans gearing up for the playoffs, as if the Yankees fans weren't...

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Somebody made a comment about Mets fans gearing up for the playoffs, as if the Yankees fans weren't...

Ahh. Very well. Also I don't think it's fair to say that Mets fans were claiming him to be mediocre, more so a disappointment once the Manuel seasons started. It's becoming a distant memory now, but Wright went from being a kid on the cusp with unlimited potential to one awfully streaky/slumpy player; who struck out a ton up until Collins came along, and that's the player it looked like he was starting to evolve in to prior to TC.

He's been on one of the craziest rollercoasters of a career that I've ever seen for a ballplayer with all the turnover, collapses, injuries, and criticism. I guess the season he's having is quite the testament to how confident and resolute a guy he is. But again, I think Collins deserves a ton of credit for that, as well as the Mets for bringing in the god damn fences finally.

All that said, the cautious Mets fan in me still needs to see him do it when it matters in August and September; when hopefully we'll be in the thick of a Wild Card race.

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WHY THE **** DO WE KEEP LOSING TO THE sh*tTY ASS CUBS??!!??!??!??!?!??!??!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?

Was having this same convo with my friend last night. Can you really look at the Mets roster and say "why are we losing to the Cubs?"

Edited by Matt39

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Was having this same convo with my friend last night. Can you really look at the Mets roster and say "why are we losing to the Cubs?"

Meh, the Mets get on base, have one of the best rotations in the NL, and a legit MVP candidate. Outside of Dempster, and then Castro and Wood, who are probably a few years away still, the Cubs have literally nothing and are at the bottom of the league in almost any meaningful category. And on a more practical note, I watch a lot of Cubs baseball, they are ****ing terrible. Painfully, painfully terrible. And that's not even counting the fact that their farm system is still in shambles.

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Was having this same convo with my friend last night. Can you really look at the Mets roster and say "why are we losing to the Cubs?"

If baseball results were simply looking at rosters on paper and deciding champions that way, the Yankees would win every year.

We know that is not the case.

This Mets team is having trouble with the lower tier teams. It is frustrating

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If baseball results were simply looking at rosters on paper and deciding champions that way, the Yankees would win every year.

We know that is not the case.

This Mets team is having trouble with the lower tier teams. It is frustrating

The Yankees don't win every year? Are you sure? Listening to their fans, it sounds like they win two World Series every calendar year.

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The Yankees don't win every year? Are you sure? Listening to their fans, it sounds like they win two World Series every calendar year.

Their fans? Listening to Patriotreign bitch and moan you'd think this too.

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If baseball results were simply looking at rosters on paper and deciding champions that way, the Yankees would win every year.

We know that is not the case.

This Mets team is having trouble with the lower tier teams. It is frustrating

The Mets are a lower tier team with their current roster. Struggling with the Cubs isnt exactly shocking to people looking at the two teams logically. Rizzo has energized them as well it seems.

And generally the teams with the best rosters get to the top after 162 games(and stay relatively healthy).

After that, in 5 and 7 games series' anything can happen.

Edited by Matt39

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The Mets are a lower tier team with their current roster. Struggling with the Cubs isnt exactly shocking to people looking at the two teams logically. Rizzo has energized them as well it seems.

Not really. The Mets are a decent team with a bunch of holes, that's why they're competing for a Wild Card. Through half a season, the numbers support this. The Cubs are a bad team with a lot of holes, that's why they're not competing for anything. Again, the numbers support this.

It's an odd season, they've been playing down to their competition at times and it's frustrating. Putting them on the same level as the Cubs right now on the argument of "but look at the rosters," through 80 games, doesn't really hold water this far in to a season. There's enough statistical evidence and a large enough sample available at this point to see that it isn't true.

I get that in your world, everyone stinks, but the fact of the matter is that this team hits well and has a great rotation. Sorry, you're off on this one.

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Not really. The Mets are a decent team with a bunch of holes, that's why they're competing for a Wild Card. Through half a season, the numbers support this. The Cubs are a bad team with a lot of holes, that's why they're not competing for anything. Again, the numbers support this.

It's an odd season, they've been playing down to their competition at times and it's frustrating. Putting them on the same level as the Cubs right now on the argument of "but look at the rosters," through 80 games, doesn't really hold water this far in to a season. There's enough statistical evidence and a large enough sample available at this point to see that it isn't true.

I get that in your world, everyone stinks, but the fact of the matter is that this team hits well and has a great rotation. Sorry, you're off on this one.

The Mets have been pitching well. Dickey is a legit MVP candidate. But you cant convince me that lineup is any good.

The reason they were playing down to the Cubs today is because Dempster is good and the Mets lineup isnt. I'd guess that they dont hit as well over the next 80 as they did in the first 80.

Edited by Matt39

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The Mets have been pitching well. Dickey is a legit MVP candidate. But you cant convince me that lineup is any good.

I'm not really sure I have to. The numbers support my argument and they don't support yours. It's a top-heavy lineup that's certainly been hitting well. Sandy put a young lineup on the field this year, so most of these guys don't even have averages they're exceeding or regressing from yet. It's not like guys like Nieuhenweis, Thole, or Duda are lighting it up to begin with anyways.

The reason they were playing down to the Cubs today is because Dempster is good and the Mets lineup isnt. I'd guess that they dont hit as well over the next 80 as they did in the first 80.

The reason they played down this series is because the odds said Johan and Niese were due for bad starts and we have a sh*t bullpen. If our starters get shelled early that's pretty much the ballgame with this team. No reason to believe that either won't rebound considering their performances thus far, particularly Niese, who up until today had been pretty great since late May.

Yet, none of this is still any basis for equating them to the Cubs. Guessing there will be a downturn is fine, stating it as fact comparatively, however, is false.

Edited by RutgersJetFan

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I'm not really sure I have to. The numbers support my argument and they don't support yours. It's a top-heavy lineup that's certainly been hitting well. Sandy put a young lineup on the field this year, so most of these guys don't even have averages they're exceeding or regressing from yet. It's not like guys like Nieuhenweis, Thole, or Duda are lighting it up to begin with anyways.

The reason they played down this series is because the odds said Johan and Niese were due for bad starts and we have a sh*t bullpen. If our starters get shelled early that's pretty much the ballgame with this team. No reason to believe that either won't rebound considering their performances thus far, particularly Niese, who up until today had been pretty great since late May.

Yet, none of this is still any basis for equating them to the Cubs. Guessing there will be a downturn is fine, stating it as fact comparatively, however, is false.

Was never equating them with the Cubs, I was just confused how folks can be blindsided by the Mets sometimes struggling with bad teams.

I dont think the Mets are there yet where they can say "we're supposed to beat this team"

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The Mets have been pitching well. Dickey is a legit MVP candidate. But you cant convince me that lineup is any good.

The reason they were playing down to the Cubs today is because Dempster is good and the Mets lineup isnt. I'd guess that they dont hit as well over the next 80 as they did in the first 80.

3rd most runs in the NL.

regardless of what you think of their line-up, they are producing.

Their performance against better teams in the league makes one think they should be doing better against the lower tier. Sadly, they are not.

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Ahh. Very well. Also I don't think it's fair to say that Mets fans were claiming him to be mediocre, more so a disappointment once the Manuel seasons started.

I was commenting on Yankee fans calling him mediocre. Even when he was having his ups and downs he was always too good to refer to as mediocre.

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Meh, the Mets get on base, have one of the best rotations in the NL, and a legit MVP candidate. Outside of Dempster, and then Castro and Wood, who are probably a few years away still, the Cubs have literally nothing and are at the bottom of the league in almost any meaningful category. And on a more practical note, I watch a lot of Cubs baseball, they are ****ing terrible. Painfully, painfully terrible. And that's not even counting the fact that their farm system is still in shambles.

20120304_jel_ah8_696_crop_exact.jpg?w=650&h=440&q=75

Also, you guys got the bad Shark at Wrigley. He had a bad June, but otherwise he's been pretty damn good with the peripherals to back the growth. First season as a starter was bound to see a rough stretch, and the Cubs toughed it out with him instead of panicking. He'll stick.

Barney isn't a terrible starting 2B for half a million or whatever it is. He'll hang around unless someone gives up a good piece, or just the fort until Baez is ready to be the RH Cano.

Farm system will explode next year. Dare I say, Almora will be the be player picked in the top 10. Throw in a solid base left by the old GM with role players and bullpen arms galore, the #1-3 pick next year (and the increased spending allotments that comes with), two strong drafts in a row before it, two of the better available trade arms this July, and work is clearly being done here.

Believe you me Mets fan, the Cubs will rise and they will rise quickly. They will move like a shadow in the night, striking with the trained, hardened hands of a born killer. Payroll has gone from 125 million to open the 2011 season to 88 this year to a roster with less than 40 million committed next year. Silently but efficiently The Ricketts has rid the roster of aged fat outside of Soriano, including replacing the finished GM and expanding the FO with some real talent (keeping the worthwhile ones in Fleita and WIlken).

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I have to add that the Mets' ship will sink in the second half, but I will root for them to not sink. They're not a bad watch at all, and it's hard to root against Johan Santana having success.

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Also, you guys got the bad Shark at Wrigley. He had a bad June, but otherwise he's been pretty damn good with the peripherals to back the growth. First season as a starter was bound to see a rough stretch, and the Cubs toughed it out with him instead of panicking. He'll stick.

I've seen Samardjiza pitch many times and the Cubs all too often. He's a 3-pitch pitcher who'll likely be a good 2 or 3 depending on if he can keep batters guessing with that two-seamer he's developed this year for the long haul (not a guarantee). I have no doubt that Theo will make them semi-competitive again, but that's not happening any time soon. Never said they won't get their act together, I just said they suck this year and have nothing for the time being aside from a very small handful of guys. Their system is bare thin and that's not something that changes simply within 1 year's time. You'd be a fool to think so.

Edited by RutgersJetFan

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Meh, I live two blocks from Wrigley. I've seen Samardjiza pitch many times and the Cubs all too often. I'm willing to guess much more often than you. I have no doubt that Theo will make them semi-competitive again, but that's not happening any time soon. Never said they won't get their act together, I just said they suck this year. Which they do.

No, I'm a Cubs fan. I've watched him through the years, and he's got everything you need to be a good mid-rotation starter with some high velocity stuff. I've watched the mechanics improve, the splitter develop into a wicket out pitch, and the command of the fastball get better. It's a matter of building up the stamina to start, and a 6'6" 230 pound athlete like him has a decent shot of being able to pull it off.

They do suck right now, but there's not going to be anything semi about it come say...2016. Don't see dead space in between either, as there's plenty of room to make an impact move or two this offseason to give Rizzo/Castro some incentive to live up to their immense talent levels. Cole Hamels has even mentioned them specifically as a team he hopes pursues him because they're doing it the way it should be done, and the money as well as the need will be there. SP is the one place the Cubs FO has left room to spend the money too.

By next year the Cubs could even field an all homegrown IF with Rizzo/Barney/Castro/Vitters, Vitters finally having a strong minor league season to give hope for an average or better starter at 3B at the low low price of a farm product. Buy low on a couple of fallen young vets like Liriano and Upton (BJ) to fill some other holes and there will be worse teams out there. Build on top of that in 2014, etc.

Hell, I'm fine with keeping Garza for next year, taking the 2 2014 picks, and running out a potential Hamels/Garza/Liriano/Shark/Wood rotation for 2013. Money and logistics are there to make it work as the seeds on the farm grow. They could ignore that entirely feasible plan and still come out with something useful.

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BTW: I hate my fellow Cub fan. Talking to them about this team is just not fun...Their idea of fun is tanking 2013 to also pick up the/a #1-5 pick in 2014 (because one won't be enough apparently and 5 top 10 picks sounds right), pocketing the saved cash, buying a star in FA "when we need it" (because that's not now, won't go beyond this year, and would eat all this franchise's payroll - yuch), and rely totally on the farm...Natural born losers those folks, if I ever met 'em. They don't even ****ing realize the enormous potential their franchise has as far as being a league power because they've never seen it.

By 2020, at the latest, I expect a 180 million dollar payroll.

Edited by SenorGato

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They do suck right now, but there's not going to be anything semi about it come say...2016.

Ah, got it. See, there's my problem. In evaluating them against the Mets this year, I wasn't taking 2016 into account. Good call.

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BTW: I hate my fellow Cub fan. Talking to them about this team is just not fun...

Yes, that's because they suck. Their record says they suck. The numbers say they suck. sh*tty teams are generally not very fun to talk about.

Their idea of fun is tanking 2013 to also pick up the/a #1-5 pick in 2014 (because one won't be enough apparently and 5 top 10 picks sounds right), pocketing the saved cash, buying a star in FA "when we need it" (because that's not now, won't go beyond this year, and would eat all this franchise's payroll - yuch), and rely totally on the farm...Natural born losers those folks, if I ever met 'em. They don't even ****ing realize the enormous potential their franchise has as far as being a league power because they've never seen it.

By 2020, at the latest, I expect a 180 million dollar payroll.

Might have something to do with the fact that they've seen sh*tty spending in action and realize it's time for another direction. You can't exactly claim they'll be well off in 2016, then complain the fans are looking too far into the future now, can you?

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No, I'm a Cubs fan. I've watched him through the years, and he's got everything you need to be a good mid-rotation starter with some high velocity stuff. I've watched the mechanics improve, the splitter develop into a wicket out pitch, and the command of the fastball get better. It's a matter of building up the stamina to start, and a 6'6" 230 pound athlete like him has a decent shot of being able to pull it off.

Also, I completely disagree with this. It all comes down to the fact that his arsenal is extremely limited. No more, no less. And because of that, there's really no way to know how well he'll fare over the long term until the league makes its rounds on him. If hitters start figuring out his 2-seamer he's 100% screwed. It's looked good so far, but it's still very early and he's been inconsistent enough to warrant the skepticism which you seem to find insane.

Edited by RutgersJetFan

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Ah, got it. See, there's my problem. In evaluating them against the Mets this year, I wasn't taking 2016 into account. Good call.

2016 for the ideal roster. Picked because that's the year young David Price is a FA. The 2013 Cubs should act alot like the 2012 Mets who followed a complete disaster in 2011, but our nucleus will be younger (your franchise player being 30, ours being 22). I expect a non-obvious contender type roster that surprises everyone with their blah blah and their blah blah blah. Hell, our franchise player even has stupid nonsense said about him like yours did (Wright's not a this pr tjat. doesn't have fire burning in his eyes, and similar gobble gook) before his big year this year.

The two teams, the Cubs and Mets, are actually doing alot of similar things including hiring the same kind of FO. Our farm is more talented in position prospects while yours is based on the arms of Wheeler/Harvey/Meija/Familia(?). The risks are different...our prospects are further off while yours are young pitchers, but I like our risk more.

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Also, I completely disagree with this. It all comes down to the fact that his arsenal is extremely limited. No more, no less. And because of that, there's really no way to know how well he'll fare over the long term until the league makes its rounds on him. If hitters start figuring out his 2-seamer he's 100% screwed. It's looked good so far, but it's still very early and he's been inconsistent enough to warrant the skepticism which you seem to find insane.

Completely disagree with this. Both his slider and his splitter are getting positive reviews statistically and scouting wise, and he spent June working on a curveball. The splitter has shown plenty of legitimate out pitch potential as it's the pitch helping him K almost a batter per inning in his first go round as a starter.. He's doing the things that good SPs do in getting strikeouts, posting a strong GB rate (albeit nothing dominant but not necessary), throwing strikes (3.29 BB/9 is fine given his K's), and he's even pitched deep into games in the majority of his starts. The xFIP (3.51) and ...I hate it too, if only because it's quoted so much right now as the hot baseball number...WAR (1.8, on pace to open his starting career over 3)...are also saying good pitcher.

Hell, you saw it against the Mets at Citi recently. Guy started off poorly in the first 3 innings, and ended up throwing 7 without allowing any other damage the rest of the day. He's doing things that you want to see out of a young starter, and that start was a great example of someone making adjustments without his best stuff.

Edited by SenorGato

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Might have something to do with the fact that they've seen sh*tty spending in action and realize it's time for another direction. You can't exactly claim they'll be well off in 2016, then complain the fans are looking too far into the future now, can you?

Think of 2016 as the 2007 Red Sox to the 2003 Red Sox...The 2010 Rays to the 2008 Rays, though with hopefully a better finish both times...That's my vision when I speak of 2016...they're the obvious best team in baseball. The fan base is just entirely too content to lose and build like we're the Royals or Rays, collecting top 10 picks for half decade+ to first be the best farm system. This under a FO who built a great farm system never picking higher than 17 in a draft. The hardcores knew this was a tank season, the FO has said as close to that as they can, so this is nothing unexpected. I mean, their big FA gets were DeJesus and Maholm...A bit obvious.

This isn't the same ownership that forced the GM to go 8 years on Soriano at 30. We're in a very different direction, and have been since Theo fired Hendry two months before the public even had a clue.

Edited by SenorGato

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Completely disagree with this. Both his slider and his splitter are getting positive reviews statistically and scouting wise, and he spent June working on a curveball. The splitter has shown plenty of legitimate out pitch potential as it's the pitch helping him K almost a batter per inning in his first go round as a starter.. He's doing the things that good SPs do in getting strikeouts, posting a strong GB rate (albeit nothing dominant but not necessary), throwing strikes (3.29 BB/9 is fine given his K's), and he's even pitched deep into games in the majority of his starts.

Hell, you saw it against the Mets at Citi recently. Guy started off poorly in the first 3 innings, and ended up throwing 7 without allowing any other damage the rest of the day. He's doing things that you want to see out of a young starter, and that start was a great example of someone making adjustments without his best stuff.

His curveball was ****ing terrible and he already abandoned it.

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Think of 2016 as the 2007 Red Sox to the 2003 Red Sox...The 2010 Rays to the 2008 Rays, though with hopefully a better finish both times...That's my vision when I speak of 2016...they're the obvious best team in baseball. The fan base is just entirely too content to lose and build like we're the Royals or Rays, collecting top 10 picks for half decade+ to first be the best farm system. This under a FO who built a great farm system never picking higher than 17 in a draft. The hardcores knew this was a tank season, the FO has said as close to that as they can, so this is nothing unexpected. I mean, their big FA gets were DeJesus and Maholm...A bit obvious.

This isn't the same ownership that forced the GM to go 8 years on Soriano at 30. We're in a very different direction, and have been since Theo fired Hendry two months before the public even had a clue.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Yes, the Cubs could be good in the distant future. Who gives a sh*t?

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**** I love talking baseball at 4:30 in the mownin.

His curveball was ****ing terrible and he already abandoned it.

Damn, I was hoping you wouldn't say that. So you have been watching your Cubs...Cool. It was a roller, but the slider, cutter, fastball, and splitter will all be fine for the rest of the season. They'll work on the curve on the side, much like Price did until he switched from the slider to the curve as his main breaking pitch.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Yes, the Cubs could be good in the distant future. Who gives a sh*t?

Me. Nothing to prove...just being a homer about a team with an obviously bright future hidden under the obviously terrible present. Oh, also the new owners >>>>>> the Trib and the new FO >>>>> the old one.

Edited by SenorGato

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I cant believe the Mets were having a hard time with the Cubs.

Oh, wait.

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Miiiiight be a savvy move to trade Dickey to Boston for whatever you can chisel out of them. Go into next season with Neise, Wheeler, Harvey, and Gee as your rotation. Either way, it looks like the annual wheels-are-comin'-off-athon.

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First thing to do is eat the contract of Bay and get rid of that total disappointment.. Then trade parnell -given two many chances and not done the job- hold people accountable for non performing.

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Miiiiight be a savvy move to trade Dickey to Boston for whatever you can chisel out of them. Go into next season with Neise, Wheeler, Harvey, and Gee as your rotation. Either way, it looks like the annual wheels-are-comin'-off-athon.

It's crazy how Sandy's flipped the script with Wheeler. 2 months ago there was no chance of calling him up this year, but the kid has been flat out dominant. I respect the Batista decision though; Collins and Alderson want Harvey to earn the spot and not be given it by extenuating circumstances. And I gotta admit, it's refreshing as hell to hear sh*t like that coming from the Mets.

Edited by RutgersJetFan

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it was fun for awhile but the Mets are toast -- Time to focus on Football

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