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2016 WS Champions/Cubs Thread

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Now lets trade for Hamels and Zobrist

 

By 2016:

 

Montero/Castillo? C

Rizzo 1B

Castro 2B/SS

Russell SS/2B

Bryant 3B

Zobrist LF/RF

Soler RF/LF

Heyward CF

 

Lester

Price

Hamels

Arrieta

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Now lets trade for Hamels and Zobrist

By 2016:

Montero/Castillo? C

Rizzo 1B

Castro 2B/SS

Russell SS/2B

Bryant 3B

Zobrist LF/RF

Soler RF/LF

Heyward CF

Lester

Price

Hamels

Arrieta

Zobrist? Meh. Only if the price were really nice. A similar deal to the Montero one, sure. Giving up prospects of any significance? No way.

Would much prefer Cespedes. Don't really see that as being a match, however, since the Sox need pitching, being as how the ******* CHICAGO CUBS SIGNED JON LESTER! We're back, baby! Hey, Chicago, whaddya say?!

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 being as how the ******* CHICAGO CUBS SIGNED JON LESTER! We're back, baby! Hey, Chicago, whaddya say?!

I say - it's looking more like soup by the minute

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Zobrist? Meh. Only if the price were really nice. A similar deal to the Montero one, sure. Giving up prospects of any significance? No way.

Would much prefer Cespedes. Don't really see that as being a match, however, since the Sox need pitching, being as how the ******* CHICAGO CUBS SIGNED JON LESTER! We're back, baby! Hey, Chicago, whaddya say?!

 

Zobrist is a significantly better player and hitter than Montero. I'd give up a piece for him, but the Cubs' leverage is that he's a FA next year.

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Zobrist is a significantly better player and hitter than Montero. I'd give up a piece for him, but the Cubs' leverage is that he's a FA next year.

The appeal of Montero is his pitch framing ability. We didn't pursue him for his offense, which is mediocre, but decent for a catcher. I would not be happy if we gave up a top ten guy in the organization for Zobrist. Less than that, fine, but that kind of assumes a Baez trade and I don't want to give up on him yet unless it leads to a major piece.

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The appeal of Montero is his pitch framing ability. We didn't pursue him for his offense, which is mediocre, but decent for a catcher. I would not be happy if we gave up a top ten guy in the organization for Zobrist. Less than that, fine, but that kind of assumes a Baez trade and I don't want to give up on him yet unless it leads to a major piece.

 

Bold: None of this explains why you wouldn't give up significant prospects for Zobrist. Zobrist is also a top notch defensive player who has made positive defensive contributions at every non-C/P position on the diamond. He even played CF for the MLB team during their trip to Japan this year.

 

You're not giving up Baez for Zobrist. That has zero shot at happening. Not every top 10 Cubs prospect is a Baez either. In fact, the Cubs probably have a system where Baez is kind of the fulcrum - before him you're either way better (or just outright better) than him and after him you're a way worse bet. Anyway - back to the point - Zobrist does not cost a Baez and is most definitely worth a significant haul. Guy's been one of the best all around players in baseball since 2009 and has only slowed down in the sense that he stopped putting up 8+ rWAR seasons.

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Bold: None of this explains why you wouldn't give up significant prospects for Zobrist. Zobrist is also a top notch defensive player who has made positive defensive contributions at every non-C/P position on the diamond. He even played CF for the MLB team during their trip to Japan this year.

You're not giving up Baez for Zobrist. That has zero shot at happening. Not every top 10 Cubs prospect is a Baez either. In fact, the Cubs probably have a system where Baez is kind of the fulcrum - before him you're either way better (or just outright better) than him and after him you're a way worse bet. Anyway - back to the point - Zobrist does not cost a Baez and is most definitely worth a significant haul. Guy's been one of the best all around players in baseball since 2009 and has only slowed down in the sense that he stopped putting up 8+ rWAR seasons.

Zobrist will be 34 next season. He's no longer a 20/20 threat, as his power and speed numbers have both been basically chopped in half since his age 31 season. This is not an in his prime Ben Zobrist. This is a Beb Zobrist that is already in his decline phase. I don't really see how he's much of an upgrade to Valbuena, aside from about 8 extra steals, a name, and the ability to play some corner outfield.

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Zobrist will be 34 next season. He's no longer a 20/20 threat, as his power and speed numbers have both been basically chopped in half since his age 31 season. This is not an in his prime Ben Zobrist. This is a Beb Zobrist that is already in his decline phase. I don't really see how he's much of an upgrade to Valbuena, aside from about 8 extra steals, a name, and the ability to play some corner outfield.

 

- 34 is not a reason to not acquire a player. He's on a one year deal anyway, and is a FA next year. He's a virtual lock to be good enough to reject a QO and net the Cubs a first if he were to leave.

 

- His ~115 OPS+ over the past two seasons would have been 2nd behind Rizzo on the Cubs over that time span.

 

- Cubs would not be buying his power but rather his patience, defensive versatility, contact skills, and skills as a LH and switch hitter. The one thing the Cubs do have is power - they've hit the second most HRs in the NL over the past 2 seasons.

 

-  His .354 OBP, with a pitcher's park as his home park, would be 2nd on the Cubs in 2013 and 2014.

 

- Ben Zobrist's decline phase is pretty good. Baseball Reference has him at 9.8 rWAR over the past two years while FanGraphs has him at 11.1 fWAR. His .334 wOBA in 2013-2014 would be second on the Cubs.

 

- It's your fault/problem if you can't see how he's an upgrade to Valbuena, but Valbuena has nothing to do with this anyway. While he is a better player than Valbuena, clearly and easily by any metric, he would play the OF and maybe some 2B/SS. IIRC 3B is his worst position, though he's capable of a spot start there.

 

- Zobrist was playing CF as recently as a month ago. Cubs happen to need a CF who can get on base and not strike out in front of their big power guys who will strikeout.

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- 34 is not a reason to not acquire a player. He's on a one year deal anyway, and is a FA next year. He's a virtual lock to be good enough to reject a QO and net the Cubs a first if he were to leave.

- His ~115 OPS+ over the past two seasons would have been 2nd behind Rizzo on the Cubs over that time span.

- Cubs would not be buying his power but rather his patience, defensive versatility, contact skills, and skills as a LH and switch hitter. The one thing the Cubs do have is power - they've hit the second most HRs in the NL over the past 2 seasons.

- His .354 OBP, with a pitcher's park as his home park, would be 2nd on the Cubs in 2013 and 2014.

- Ben Zobrist's decline phase is pretty good. Baseball Reference has him at 9.8 rWAR over the past two years while FanGraphs has him at 11.1 fWAR. His .334 wOBA in 2013-2014 would be second on the Cubs.

- It's your fault/problem if you can't see how he's an upgrade to Valbuena, but Valbuena has nothing to do with this anyway. While he is a better player than Valbuena, clearly and easily by any metric, he would play the OF and maybe some 2B/SS. IIRC 3B is his worst position, though he's capable of a spot start there.

- Zobrist was playing CF as recently as a month ago. Cubs happen to need a CF who can get on base and not strike out in front of their big power guys who will strikeout.

I don't feel like writing a novella, so I'll just boil it down for you. I have zero interest in giving up anything substantial for a one year rental of a declining 34 year old player. As I said previously, I'd be okay giving up a similar package to the one that netted Montero. However, this is all likely a moot point. You really think the Rays of all teams are going to be willing to negotiate with the Cubs? They're slightly pissed at us.

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I don't feel like writing a novella, so I'll just boil it down for you. I have zero interest in giving up anything substantial for a one year rental of a declining 34 year old player. As I said previously, I'd be okay giving up a similar package to the one that netted Montero. However, this is all likely a moot point. You really think the Rays of all teams are going to be willing to negotiate with the Cubs? They're slightly pissed at us.

 

That you actually buy thinking Zobrist is on the same tier or lower than Luis Valbuena and Montero should have indicated that I'm wasting my time here.

 

Technically he is declining - from an 8+ WAR player to a 5 WAR player who should be a lock for 4+ WAR in 2015 if healthy....Woooe be he, can't work with that!

 

I don't think the Rays care who they trade with so long as the talent is match. Cubs have the pieces to make something happen without dipping into their elite guys.

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That you actually buy thinking Zobrist is on the same tier or lower than Luis Valbuena and Montero should have indicated that I'm wasting my time here.

Technically he is declining - from an 8+ WAR player to a 5 WAR player who should be a lock for 4+ WAR in 2015 if healthy....Woooe be he, can't work with that!

I don't think the Rays care who they trade with so long as the talent is match. Cubs have the pieces to make something happen without dipping into their elite guys.

Valbuena 2014 OPS+: 114

Zobrist 2014 OPS+: 115

Nope. Not at all comparable players.

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Valbuena 2014 OPS+: 114

Zobrist 2014 OPS+: 115

Nope. Not at all comparable players.

 

Zobrist: 146 G/ 146 starts at 6 different positions/ 5 rWAR/ 5.7 fWAR

 

Valbuena: 149 G/ 149 starts at 2 different positions/ 1.7 rWAR/ 2.7 fWAR

 

Once again - they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zobrist made 0 starts at 3B last year.

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Zobrist: 146 G/ 146 starts at 6 different positions/ 5 rWAR/ 5.7 fWAR

 

Valbuena: 149 G/ 149 starts at 2 different positions/ 1.7 rWAR/ 2.7 fWAR

 

Once again - they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zobrist made 0 starts at 3B last year.

 

Point being, since we are rumored to be going after a "big bat", I would not quantify someone with comparable offensive numbers to Valbuena as a "big bat", regardless of said acquisition's ability to play solid defense at lots of different positions. 

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Point being, since we are rumored to be going after a "big bat", I would not quantify someone with comparable offensive numbers to Valbuena as a "big bat", regardless of said acquisition's ability to play solid defense at lots of different positions. 

 

Valbuena was one of the best offensive 3B in baseball during last year's career year. Especially relative to what the Cubs have for the OF (Soler and junk), Zobrist would be a major upgrade/big bat/whatever you need to call it.

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If any of you read Bleacher Nation, should I say something about how corny the memes are? The sweater...Kris Bryant's eyes...I feel like these are things people laugh at because they feel it's polite to do so as guests.

 

OTOH, everything else Brett does there is great.

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If any of you read Bleacher Nation, should I say something about how corny the memes are? The sweater...Kris Bryant's eyes...I feel like these are things people laugh at because they feel it's polite to do so as guests.

 

OTOH, everything else Brett does there is great.

I knew that's where you got on this Zobrist wagon from, Catman. I don't disagree he could be of help, but I wouldn't want to part with any kid of substance for him. We can fill the middle infield with whats currently under contract.

Even if it's not long term or optimal it will give solid innings and at bats to guys that need to be up this year.  

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Bryant's position is still up in the air. Most people still say he projects in the OF, rather than at third.

Rumor has it that the Phillies are interested in Wood and the Cubs like Revere. I'd definitely do that. Gives the Cubs plus defense in CF and some much needed speed atop the lineup.

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Bryant's position is still up in the air. Most people still say he projects in the OF, rather than at third.

Rumor has it that the Phillies are interested in Wood and the Cubs like Revere. I'd definitely do that. Gives the Cubs plus defense in CF and some much needed speed atop the lineup.

Whatever position is better for his stick is my wish, bro and don't really think there's a difference. From all I've heard Bryant is the closest thing to a pure hitter we've seen in a long time.

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This should happen:

 

Cubs get - Hamels, Utley, Revere

 

Phillies get - Baez, Almora, Edwards, Wood, Castillo

 

C: Montero/Ross

1B: Rizzo

2B: Utley/Valbuena

SS: Rizzo

3B: Valbuena/Utley

OF: Soler

OF: Alcantrara

OF: Revere

 

Lester

Arrieta

Hamels

Hammel

Hendricks

 

Utley has one year left on his contract. There might be a vesting option, but I'm lazy.

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Bryant's position is still up in the air. Most people still say he projects in the OF, rather than at third.

Rumor has it that the Phillies are interested in Wood and the Cubs like Revere. I'd definitely do that. Gives the Cubs plus defense in CF and some much needed speed atop the lineup.

 

Bryant's at 3B until he's not at 3B. Long term yes - he'll be in the OF. Short term? 3B. Medium? Hopefully it's 3B. The smartest thing to do is let him bomb at 3B before actually moving him, he's insane valuable at 3B.

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Bryant's at 3B until he's not at 3B. Long term yes - he'll be in the OF. Short term? 3B. Medium? Hopefully it's 3B. The smartest thing to do is let him bomb at 3B before actually moving him, he's insane valuable at 3B.

He's only a third baseman if one of Castro/Baez/Russell is traded. I'm not willing to make that assumption. If the right trade comes along, fine, but in all my masturbatory fantasies, they all remain Cubs.

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He's only a third baseman if one of Castro/Baez/Russell is traded. I'm not willing to make that assumption. If the right trade comes along, fine, but in all my masturbatory fantasies, they all remain Cubs.

 

He's a 3B if he handles it well during his callup next April/May. I do agree that he moves to LF eventually, but any years he can cover 3B is a huge boon to the franchise.

 

Baez as a future OFer is an underrated outcome. Was mentioned in 2012 by Epstein, and his D profile isn't far off from a young Soriano. SS deep into pro ball, moved to 2B for the majors, athletic and young enough to get by...in different ways both project to outgrow the position. That said, he's not my favorite player around and would like to deal him for a higher quality arm.

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He's a 3B if he handles it well during his callup next April/May. I do agree that he moves to LF eventually, but any years he can cover 3B is a huge boon to the franchise.

 

Baez as a future OFer is an underrated outcome. Was mentioned in 2012 by Epstein, and his D profile isn't far off from a young Soriano. SS deep into pro ball, moved to 2B for the majors, athletic and young enough to get by...in different ways both project to outgrow the position. That said, he's not my favorite player around and would like to deal him for a higher quality arm.

 

I'm still into Javy. Even if he improves marginally, he should still be the best power hitting second baseman in the majors. I'd take Mark Reynolds numbers when he's like your 6th best player, particularly at a weak hitting position. In terms of relative value, I'd say Baez loses far more than Bryant when moved to the outfield. In the outfield, he's Adam Dunn with no walks. In the infield, he's Super Dan Uggla. If all the uber-prospects stay, it just makes more sense for Bryant to be moved to the outfield. He retains much more value than Javy would in the same move.

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I'm still into Javy. Even if he improves marginally, he should still be the best power hitting second baseman in the majors. I'd take Mark Reynolds numbers when he's like your 6th best player, particularly at a weak hitting position. In terms of relative value, I'd say Baez loses far more than Bryant when moved to the outfield. In the outfield, he's Adam Dunn with no walks. In the infield, he's Super Dan Uggla. If all the uber-prospects stay, it just makes more sense for Bryant to be moved to the outfield. He retains much more value than Javy would in the same move.

 

I agree with this. Right now neither guy has played the OF and I have no urge to move either (if anything, I'm trying to sell Baez as a SS to the Phillies for Hamels), and was talking more long term/second halfs of their primes or careers.

 

Ideally, if they don't trade Baez for pitching, they close April with Baez at 2B and Bryant at 3B.

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I agree with this. Right now neither guy has played the OF and I have no urge to move either (if anything, I'm trying to sell Baez as a SS to the Phillies for Hamels), and was talking more long term/second halfs of their primes or careers.

Ideally, if they don't trade Baez for pitching, they close April with Baez at 2B and Bryant at 3B.

That sounds about right for the short term, but we also have a little prospect named Addison Russell, and it appears likely that he ends up at third. Basically, barring a trade involving Castro or Baez, the OF is Kris Bryant's destination. It makes far less sense to move Baez and sap him of a good part of his value. It sure is nice to have these problems, though, isn't it? "We have too many good players". We've got the power, we've got the speed, to be the best in the National League.

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I'm still into Javy. Even if he improves marginally, he should still be the best power hitting second baseman in the majors. I'd take Mark Reynolds numbers when he's like your 6th best player, particularly at a weak hitting position. In terms of relative value, I'd say Baez loses far more than Bryant when moved to the outfield. In the outfield, he's Adam Dunn with no walks. In the infield, he's Super Dan Uggla. If all the uber-prospects stay, it just makes more sense for Bryant to be moved to the outfield. He retains much more value than Javy would in the same move.

I'm really concerned with his inability to connect with the breaking stuff. With his off the charts bat speed, alterations to make more contact could screw him up bigtime.

But if he doesn't get better at it he'll make Adam Dunn look like Tony Gywnn.

I don't know, maybe you let have 220 k's and bat him 8th. Sure is sweet to see (and hear) when he gets one. 

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The Denorfia signing makes sense - he hits lefties (or did) and just as important can play a competent CF. Beats trading for Cameron Maybin or someone of similar ilk. I'd sill like to trade for a LF - by far preferring Zobrist to any other option.

 

The Cubs could put out this lineup out on opening day:

 

Zobrist LF/RF/2B/SS

Castro SS/2B?

Valbuena 2B/3B

Rizzo 1B
Bryant 3B/LF

Soler RF

Montero C

Alcantara CF/LF/2B/SS

 

Lester

Arrieta

Hamels

Hammel

Hendricks

 

Bench: Denorfia OF, Ross C, Coghlan, La Stella?

 

Bullpen: hopefully competent

 

The OF should be pretty fluid, with Zobrist and Alcantara also acting as a "bench" of sorts for the IF. That's a good team,  one that would compete for the division and is capable of a deep playoff run. Addison Russell could come up from AAA by August and put Valbuena on the bench, making that roster even deeper and younger.

 

At the end of the year, throw the QO at Zobrist and take the pick. Immediately replace his OBP/contact skills with Heyward, who can probably start in CF. The roster gets younger still, with almost ten years separating Zobrist and Heyward.

 

Of course - putting this team together requires the Cubs picking up players who haven't played for the Red Sox or Padres. That may seem a tall task!

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Don't really understand the Ruggiano trade or the Wright non-tendering.

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The Denorfia signing makes sense - he hits lefties (or did) and just as important can play a competent CF. Beats trading for Cameron Maybin or someone of similar ilk. I'd sill like to trade for a LF - by far preferring Zobrist to any other option.

 

The Cubs could put out this lineup out on opening day:

 

Zobrist LF/RF/2B/SS

Castro SS/2B?

Valbuena 2B/3B

Rizzo 1B

Bryant 3B/LF

Soler RF

Montero C

Alcantara CF/LF/2B/SS

 

Lester

Arrieta

Hamels

Hammel

Hendricks

 

Bench: Denorfia OF, Ross C, Coghlan, La Stella?

 

Bullpen: hopefully competent

 

The OF should be pretty fluid, with Zobrist and Alcantara also acting as a "bench" of sorts for the IF. That's a good team,  one that would compete for the division and is capable of a deep playoff run. Addison Russell could come up from AAA by August and put Valbuena on the bench, making that roster even deeper and younger.

 

At the end of the year, throw the QO at Zobrist and take the pick. Immediately replace his OBP/contact skills with Heyward, who can probably start in CF. The roster gets younger still, with almost ten years separating Zobrist and Heyward.

 

Of course - putting this team together requires the Cubs picking up players who haven't played for the Red Sox or Padres. That may seem a tall task!

You still believe that just Baez gets Hamels?

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Don't really understand the Ruggiano trade or the Wright non-tendering.

 

I assume they needed a AA arm. Denorfia's a little better a defender, and they're making the same money.

 

Wright I totally get, and even love. The team doesn't have any lefty relief talent  so it seems like some big loss, but Wright has junk stuff and can't get the swing and miss. Out of the pen, I want the swing and miss.

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