Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Greene is a very good pick for the 3rd. Not only was he crucial in both playoff runs but whenever you have a player who can run for 1,000 yards and give you 30 receptions, while averaging 4.2 ypc, while playing behind a spotty OL and no threat at QB...I'd say that type of production out of a 3rd round pick is pretty damn good. McKnight was a 4th rounder who was the best kick off return guy in the league. Is there no value in good field position? Especially for a sh*tty offense? And now that LT is gone, I'd expect to see more work on 3rd downs for him...so, yeah, once again, very good value for where they were selected. There are probably 25 backs at least Id take over Greene. We've always had good KR....if McKnight was a good pick then so was Justin Miller. He cant get on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Jets could have taken Stephen Hill, a prospect they really liked, at 16. Held off, landed arguably the draft's premiere DL talent, and still ended up with Hill. It cost them a 5th to do that. This is a wonderful way to frame a story. Another way to frame it is that they gave up a slot that yields good value for OL on the cheap for a developmental player on a 4-year deal that likely won't produce much until year 3. Narratives are fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 How is Greene not a miss? You think he's good? How is he a miss? A third round pick that took over for Thomas Jones (a deal you might have a point complaining about) with better production. Doesn't sound like a miss to me. I think you guys think he's a miss because you put so much stock in "we had him graded as a first rounder" and not enough stock in the fact that he is a 3rd rounder with very good production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 How is he a miss? A third round pick that took over for Thomas Jones (a deal you might have a point complaining about) with better production. Doesn't sound like a miss to me. I think you guys think he's a miss because you put so much stock in "we had him graded as a first rounder" and not enough stock in the fact that he is a 3rd rounder with very good production. Greene was awful last year as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Maybe I dont get your point then...because I think its pretty smart and is an indication the Jets know what they are doing in the draft if they have someone graded high but are able to get that pick later while adding other players along the way. IMO thats the definition of smart drafting. And we just down right disagree about your opinion of the offense. Mangold, DBrick, Slauson, Leon, Smith, Keller, Kerley, Greene, McKnight - were all really good picks, especially if you base it on where they landed them in the draft. If Sanchez turns the corner, then the Jets fleeced the Browns for a franchise QB and if Hill turn out, the Jets have done a good job of drafting offensive talent. As of right now, the only clear miss is Vlad maybe Clemens to an extent, with Sanchez looking that way too...for now. And even if Sanchez doesn't turn the corner, we got five years of entertaining football with two conference championship game appearances out of it. That's a hell of a lot more than most teams get out of their bust first round QB picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Greene was awful last year as a starter. Greene ran for more than 1000 yards last year behind a spotty o-line. He sucks just like Thomas Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Greene ran for more than 1000 yards last year behind a spotty o-line. He sucks just like Thomas Jones. Look up the advanced stats. He's a back that can only take what the line gives him. He had the worst ypc after contact last season in the entire league at 2.0. He struggles in pass protection. He's an awkward pass catcher. But hey, 1000 yards...yeah baby. His long on the year was, what barely 30 yards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAMDE Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 No...but lets be honest. 3 of the best QB's in the league were found on pure luck. Brady was a 7th rounder. Rodgers was a late 1st who sat for 4 years, I think it safe to say the Packers didnt know they were getting the MVP of the league (though they did make the right decision going with him over Favre, so maybe not the best example) and how often do players like Brees hit the open market and become a HOF'er on their new team? The Patriots went 11-5 without Brady. We've gone 11-5 once in the last thirteen years. The Rodgers example is ridiculous. Anybody so inclined could have had him on draft day, the Packers got him, but since they couldn't have been certain he'd be this good, we just chuck that one out as luck too. Yeah, okay. Bottom line is the Jets outright screw up far too much to complain about not getting lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 There are probably 25 backs at least Id take over Greene. We've always had good KR....if McKnight was a good pick then so was Justin Miller. He cant get on the field. Why is this so hard for you? Miller was a 2nd round pick drafted to be a CB and ended up being a kick off specialist. No, that was not a good pick and horrible value the 2nd round. McKnight was 4th round pick selected to be a return specialist and eventually a 3rd down, change of pace back. That was a good value considering he led the league in a category he was expected to produce at and now he's getting his shot as the 3rd down back. I'd like to see how he does. Its cool that you think there are 25 backs in the league better than Greene. And I'm not saying he's great. But only 9 players at his position accomplished what he did playing with a horrible QB, a spotty OL on a sh*tty offense and non of them were 3rd round picks, except Foster. The rest were 1st or 2nd round picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The Rodgers example is ridiculous. Anybody so inclined could have had him on draft day, the Packers got him, but since they couldn't have been certain he'd be this good, we just chuck that one out as luck too. it's not just getting the player it's developing him. The Jets could have drafted Rodgers and ruined him. There's no way he would have been able to sit for 4 seasons as a NYJ that's for damn sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 If Coslet ever gave Blair Thomas 250 carries, he'd had a 1000 yard season udner his belt, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAMDE Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Look up the advanced stats. I have. You haven't. Per the old formula (I haven't gone back to see whether v7.0 changed this, but probably not), Greene's DVOA was in the top 20 among RB with at least a hundred carries in each of his three seasons. Know who else has done that the last three years? Nobody. The problem with the running game is Sanchez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klecko73isGod Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I have. You haven't. Per the old formula (I haven't gone back to see whether v7.0 changed this, but probably not), Greene's DVOA was in the top 20 among RB with at least a hundred carries in each of his three seasons. Know who else has done that the last three years? Nobody. The problem with the running game is Sanchez. Somebody just got owned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 This is a wonderful way to frame a story. Another way to frame it is that they gave up a slot that yields good value for OL on the cheap for a developmental player on a 4-year deal that likely won't produce much until year 3. Narratives are fun. Was that the last 5th the Jets will own? Outside WR was even more devoid of talent on this roster than OL. After Holmes there was Schillens. Not to mention they have a project second round pick OL on the roster entering his 3rd year, and yes I get that that's probably less relevant than it is for a WR. Plus...define much. Hill doesn't have to do much this year for him to help open up the offense a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The Patriots went 11-5 without Brady. We've gone 11-5 once in the last thirteen years. The Rodgers example is ridiculous. Anybody so inclined could have had him on draft day, the Packers got him, but since they couldn't have been certain he'd be this good, we just chuck that one out as luck too. Yeah, okay. Bottom line is the Jets outright screw up far too much to complain about not getting lucky. The Patriots went 11-5 and missed the playoffs/didnt win the division for the first time in what, 11 years? lol And the same season Rodgers was drafted...the first overall pick was Alex Smith. Go look at the draft and check out how many teams passed on him who were desperate for a QB. Ya think San Fran would like to have a redo? Luck is key to finding an elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Greene was awful last year as a starter. If Greene was awful last year as a starter, Curtis Martin just made the Hall of Fame after a consistent career of "awful". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afosomf Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Jets could have taken Stephen Hill, a prospect they really liked, at 16. Held off, landed arguably the draft's premiere DL talent, and still ended up with Hill. It cost them a 5th to do that. Ya a kid with 49 career catches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REAMDE Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Was that the last 5th the Jets will own? He's talking about trading away picks for players we have to pay like free agents, you're talking about trading picks to move up. It's apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Was that the last 5th the Jets will own? Outside WR was even more devoid of talent on this roster than OL. After Holmes there was Schillens. Not to mention they have a project second round pick OL on the roster entering his 3rd year, and yes I get that that's probably less relevant than it is for a WR. Plus...define much. Hill doesn't have to do much this year for him to help open up the offense a little. You're reading way too much into things. All I was saying is that you have a very literary, black & white way of trying to evaluate things. Things aren't just mega awesome or completely sh*tty. There are in-betweens and middle grounds. That said, if you'd like to get in to a quantitative discussion about the indirect effects of why the Jets were forced to trade away yet more mid-rounders for yet another receiver while sacrificing money and depth for the umpteenth time, that's probably not something that's going to work out much in Tannenbaum's favor either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He's talking about trading away picks for players we have to pay like free agents, you're talking about trading picks to move up. It's apples and oranges. What do you think the ratio for is for the pick on the Tebow trade? He's making 5 times more at what, 80 gajillion times less the value eventually? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I have. You haven't. Per the old formula (I haven't gone back to see whether v7.0 changed this, but probably not), Greene's DVOA was in the top 20 among RB with at least a hundred carries in each of his three seasons. Know who else has done that the last three years? Nobody. The problem with the running game is Sanchez. Hey look Aten is back. Wonderful. I thought Aaron Shatz had you locked away somewhere as his sex slave. But no. I have as well. PFF is fine for grading backs. He's awful after contact. So yeah, ive looked them up too. Greene's first season was behind one of the best run blocking line's probably ever assembled, as a part time player. Last year was the first year we could see what Greene was on his own. He gets yards given to him. Awesome. To 20 in DVOA 3 years in a row...I guess we're supposed to be impressed by that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Awww man. Narc. Bad form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Awww man. Narc. Bad form. He's more condescending than you. Fairly obvious giveaway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RutgersJetFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 He's more condescending than you. Fairly obvious giveaway. Easy there Narcy McNarcowitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 i doubt Max really care tbh...nor should anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 You're reading way too much into things. All I was saying is that you have a very literary, black & white way of trying to evaluate things. Things aren't just mega awesome or completely sh*tty. There are in-betweens and middle grounds. That said, if you'd like to get in to a quantitative discussion about the indirect effects of why the Jets were forced to trade away yet more mid-rounders for yet another receiver while sacrificing money and depth for the umpteenth time, that's probably not something that's going to work out much in Tannenbaum's favor either. Holy Brian Schittenheimer Batman! Third time, the highest pick being a 3rd, for the WR. It might have cost them a 5th round pick OL, Ryan Miller was the first OL (a RG) picked after the Jets' 5th. A likeable prospect given his size and pedigree as a former 5 star recruit, but someone to lose sleep over? Nope, just another RG prospect. You're right that things aren't just black and white, there are shades of gray. While the 5th round might probably be a nice spot to find a sleeper OL, how much do the Jets actually gain from that? I bet there would be plenty of talk of how 5th round OL prospect X doesn't solve The Problem and we're in the same boat with physical talent and long term upside at WR. You're a pusher of coaches having huge impact on player performance...the Jets went in that direction with the OL by hiring Sporano. Hell, they grabbed two just in case with Deotherguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I have. You haven't. Per the old formula (I haven't gone back to see whether v7.0 changed this, but probably not), Greene's DVOA was in the top 20 among RB with at least a hundred carries in each of his three seasons. Know who else has done that the last three years? Nobody. The problem with the running game is Sanchez. Sounds like horrible value for a 3rd rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Sounds like horrible value for a 3rd rounder. top 20 in dvoa as a back 3 years in a row isnt exactly impressive. It sounds like a made up ESPN stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 top 20 in dvoa as a back 3 years in a row isnt exactly impressive. It sounds like a made up ESPN stat. Oh no? Then why is he the only one to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Oh no? Then why is he the only one to do it? Mark Sanchez has 4 road playoff wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Mark Sanchez has 4 road playoff wins. Which is very impressive. Is he the only one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Which is very impressive. Is he the only one? On the surface, sure it looks nice...but it doesnt mean anything. He was the only one for a year...now Eli and Flacco both have more I believe. I dont get what top 20 in DVOA is really arguing. Because Mccoys rookie year he finished outside the top 20 that makes Greene better than him? I dont get the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I dont get what top 20 in DVOA is really arguing. Because Mccoys rookie year he finished outside the top 20 that makes Greene better than him? I dont get the argument. TSS this post must have been written at a 120 degree angle or sumthin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustInFudge Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 On the surface, sure it looks nice...but it doesnt mean anything. He was the only one for a year...now Eli and Flacco both have more I believe. I dont get what top 20 in DVOA is really arguing. Because Mccoys rookie year he finished outside the top 20 that makes Greene better than him? I dont get the argument. Ugh. Nobody on earth is saying Greene is better than McCoy. You think he's awful and he's not. Readme provided a stat to back it up that he's not as bad as you think he is. I've done so as well. Fact of the matter is, for a 3rd rounder, he's an overachiever and was a very good pick. That is. Thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Ugh. Nobody on earth is saying Greene is better than McCoy. You think he's awful and he's not. Readme provided a stat to back it up that he's not as bad as you think he is. I've done so as well. Fact of the matter is, for a 3rd rounder, he's an overachiever and was a very good pick. That is. Thats all. How does that stat back up anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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