Are Schotty & Sparano weak OC's, or do the Jets just have no talent on offense?

[artemusclyde]

Yeah but then again, he's played, what, one full game worth of snaps?

2 games without 2 of his top 3 receivers, too.

Not a fan of the guy but not as worried as everyone else.

True, but I look to the past of how a guy plays to evaluate him (most of the time), and the past of Sanchize has just been pure crap so hearing and seeing that he's playing the same after all these years doesn't look so good. Nevertheless, our defense is looking like it has a good shot at being the number one defense in the nfl, so I expect us to at least (hoping) make the playoffs.

[stoicsentry]

True, but I look to the past of how a guy plays to evaluate him (most of the time), and the past of Sanchize has just been pure crap so hearing and seeing that he's playing the same after all these years doesn't look so good. Nevertheless, our defense is looking like it has a good shot at being the number one defense in the nfl, so I expect us to at least (hoping) make the playoffs.

That's pretty much the way I see it, too.

The defense looks improved. If Sanchez performs to the level he did last year, we have a chance at a wild card. If he improves even slightly, so too does that chance.

Unfortunately, so far he looks like he has regressed. But let's see a regular season game first...

[dbatesman]

You will find out when rams play jets, Jets Monster Def vs Capgun Ewes O led by anti-christ

Tom has already said it, but if we lose that game, the subsequent 24 hours will be the greatest period in this message board's glorious history.

[artemusclyde]

That's pretty much the way I see it, too.

The defense looks improved. If Sanchez performs to the level he did last year, we have a chance at a wild card. If he improves even slightly, so too does that chance.

Unfortunately, so far he looks like he has regressed. But let's see a regular season game first...

Yeah, though I am a bit worried about our run game, if we want a shot at the superbowl either Sanchez has got to have a break out season or our run game needs to get it together and get back in the top 5.

[Jetsfan80]

Not my point. My point is that we DON'T have to act like QB is the be all end all. With this D we just need competent. Sometimes when you start winning with competent it develops into Trent Green, or Rich Gannon. Other times some sh*thead can get you there or pretty close - Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Kerry Collins, Vinny Testaverde.

Problem is the last 9 Super Bowl wins have all gone to elite signal-callers, not game managers. Brady, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Rodgers. Rex Grossman was the last game manager to GET there and we saw the result. The days of winning it all with QB's the caliber of that list you gave above appear to be long gone.

Maybe we can go against the grain and win with great D, a running game and a decent QB. But I doubt it.

[SenorGato]

You will find out when rams play jets, Jets Monster Def vs Capgun Ewes O led by anti-christ

Yeah that'll be the definitive moment.

If the Jets even slightly struggle to beat the Rams, and they probably will, then things are not going too well. That's in an absolute cake part of the schedule.

[#27TheDominator]

Problem is the last 9 Super Bowl wins have all gone to elite signal-callers, not game managers. Brady, Roethlisberger, P. Manning, E. Manning, Brees, Rodgers. Rex Grossman was the last game manager to GET there and we saw the result. The days of winning it all with QB's the caliber of that list you gave above appear to be long gone.

Maybe we can go against the grain and win with great D, a running game and a decent QB. But I doubt it.

I agree it is preferable to have a great QB. It's the most important oosition. On the other hand, look at the QBs that won playoff games last year: In addition to Eli, Brady and Brees, you have the following: Joe Flacco? Alex Smith? Garbage. Tebow? Ha. TJ Yates? In the two years prior Sanchez himself won four playoff games. While I agree it's not the favored way to do it, I wouldn't say the days of winning with a sh*tty QB are over.

[Bugg]

You will find out when rams play jets, Jets Monster Def vs Capgun Ewes O led by anti-christ

I would LOVE to be able to bet on a 3-2 score when that horror show happens. BET THE UNDER.

[SenorGato]

Roethlisberger was a game manager in '05...A 6'5" 250 pound game manager on a team the refs/NFL wanted to see win.

Different kind of management btw....they were the model for the '09-'10 Jets...by that I mean they made let had the young QB throw deep often in between the dominant D and the Groundz and Poundz running game.

[SMC]

If Sanchez actually does improve this year, he should throw for 4000 yds and 30 TDs, which if you consider last yr's production and the fact that those are not top numbers anymore with the way the game is played, is doable.

[REAMDE]

If Sanchez actually does improve this year, he should throw for 4000 yds and 30 TDs, which if you consider last yr's production and the fact that those are not top numbers anymore with the way the game is played, is doable.

I was just wondering when you'd cut the disingenuous anti-Sanchez stuff and get back to slurping the chorizo. I don't think he's thrown for 250 yards sixteen times in his career, but yeah, averaging that over the course of a season in Sparano's caveman offense with Tebow stealing snaps and everybody in the organization trying to avoid being the next patsy to get thrown under el bus is TOTALLY DOABLE YOU GUYS.

[afosomf]

Tom has already said it, but if we lose that game, the subsequent 24 hours will be the greatest period in this message board's glorious history.

That loss alone should get Tanny/Rex fired

Yes Max will have a banner next day if this loss happens

[THE ILK]

That loss alone should get Tanny/Rex fired

Yes Max will have a banner next day if this loss happens

Nothing a contest for a random Jets trinket won't top.

[Jetsfan80]

I agree it is preferable to have a great QB. It's the most important oosition. On the other hand, look at the QBs that won playoff games last year: In addition to Eli, Brady and Brees, you have the following: Joe Flacco? Alex Smith? Garbage. Tebow? Ha. TJ Yates? In the two years prior Sanchez himself won four playoff games. While I agree it's not the favored way to do it, I wouldn't say the days of winning with a sh*tty QB are over.

The ultimate goal isn't to win a few playoff games. We've been there and done that with Sanchez. We'd probably have done the same things with a Sam Bradford or Colt McCoy caliber of QB.

[Jetsfan80]

Roethlisberger was a game manager in '05...A 6'5" 250 pound game manager on a team the refs/NFL wanted to see win.

Meh, I think we tend to underrate Ben's early career successes. Would Sanchez, no matter how good our defense gets, ever be capable of a 15-1 season? You don't get to that level without having ability to make the throws when needed, and Ben had it. He further proved it by winning a 2nd Super Bowl.

[Bleedin Green]

So I haven't bothered to read it, but is this thread really anything other than 5 pages of "All of the Above"?

Then again, I know it's difficult for some to grasp the concept that more than one person can suck at their job at the same time.

[#27TheDominator]

The ultimate goal isn't to win a few playoff games. We've been there and done that with Sanchez. We'd probably have done the same things with a Sam Bradford or Colt McCoy caliber of QB.

The ultimate goal sh*t is a crock. If you can win playoff games, you can win it all. Obviously it's easier with a top level QB, but Eli isn't exactly Aaron Rogers back there. Two of the teams in the conference finals had sh*t for a QB. If they can make it, they can win it. There is so much luck involved getting there, that it's a crap shoot at that point.

[bitonti]

The reason why you don't see a diff between the coordinators is that most coordinators are not difference makers. These guys all run the same plays... more or less. Every OC in the league is a mash of Bill Walsh and Air Coryell. Ya know how there are 3-4 defensive coaches and 4-3 defensive coaches, that's not how it works on offense. there's 1 offensive system and all 32 teams basically run the same plays. Once upon a time Jets fans were brutally scarred by Paul Hackett's incompetence (and he really was terrible). But schotty wasn't a hackett. Coaches coach and players play. People scapegoated Schotty but it was really Mark's bad play that got Schotty fired. Sparano is not any better than Schotty, truth be told. If the offense improves it will be because Mark improved. If Schotty had Tom Brady to coach he'd still be here. (tom Brady didn't even have a real coordinator for several years post Josh McDaniels, he just had a QB coach. that's how little the coach matters, a great QB doesn't even need one).

oh and if you disagree with this, keep in mind money talks and bulls--t walks. there's a reason why Wayne Hunter makes 2 mil and Schotty makes 1 mil and Mark makes 10+ mil. No one ever says it's a coordinator's league or it's a right tackle's league. It's a QB's league all the way and the QB has to make good quick decisions for the offense to have a chance.

[Bleedin Green]

The reason why you don't see a diff between the coordinators is that most coordinators are not difference makers. These guys all run the same plays... more or less. Every OC in the league is a mash of Bill Walsh and Air Coryell. Ya know how there are 3-4 defensive coaches and 4-3 defensive coaches, that's not how it works on offense. there's 1 offensive system and all 32 teams basically run the same plays. Once upon a time Jets fans were brutally scarred by Paul Hackett's incompetence (and he really was terrible). But schotty wasn't a hackett. Coaches coach and players play. People scapegoated Schotty but it was really Mark's bad play that got Schotty fired. Sparano is not any better than Schotty, truth be told. If the offense improves it will be because Mark improved. If Schotty had Tom Brady to coach he'd still be here. (tom Brady didn't even have a real coordinator for several years post Josh McDaniels, he just had a QB coach. that's how little the coach matters, a great QB doesn't even need one).

oh and if you disagree with this, keep in mind money talks and bulls--t walks. there's a reason why Wayne Hunter makes 2 mil and Schotty makes 1 mil and Mark makes 10+ mil. No one ever says it's a coordinator's league or it's a right tackle's league. It's a QB's league all the way and the QB has to make good quick decisions for the offense to have a chance.

Agree with most of this except for the fact that Schitty really was as back as Hackett. I mean hell, at least Hackett was smart enough to know he had to build his offense around the ridiculously sad limitations of his QB. Just like I said before, some people need to realize that more than one person can suck at their job at the same time, and Sanchez sucking doesn't magically change the fact that Schotty does too.

[SMC]

I was just wondering when you'd cut the disingenuous anti-Sanchez stuff and get back to slurping the chorizo. I don't think he's thrown for 250 yards sixteen times in his career, but yeah, averaging that over the course of a season in Sparano's caveman offense with Tebow stealing snaps and everybody in the organization trying to avoid being the next patsy to get thrown under el bus is TOTALLY DOABLE YOU GUYS.

Well, Chad did throw for 3,653 yds in his first year with Sparano, and Sanchez, whom everyone including you say he sucked last year, threw for 3,474. Chad was throwing to Ted Ginn Jr. and Greg Camarillo that year.

If Sanchez becomes "good" this year (which is a big if), he can certainly up his passing total by another 500 yds, even in Sparano's "caveman" offense.

[Jetsfan80]

The ultimate goal sh*t is a crock. If you can win playoff games, you can win it all. Obviously it's easier with a top level QB, but Eli isn't exactly Aaron Rogers back there. Two of the teams in the conference finals had sh*t for a QB. If they can make it, they can win it. There is so much luck involved getting there, that it's a crap shoot at that point.

Teams with weaker QB's need FAR more luck to get there. Hell, to get past Brees and the Saints at home, Alex Smith's Niners required FIVE New Orleans turnovers, and still barely won! The next week, SF's luck ran out, primarily due to Smith and the offense being 1 of 11 or something on 3rd downs.

Teams with superior QB's have more of a margin for error. The Packers had one of the worst defenses in the NFL yet they went 15-1 last season. Brady's Patriots were only slightly better and they reached the Super Bowl.

I don't think Sanchez would have led the 2011 Packers or Patriots to the playoffs, much less the Super Bowl.

[#27TheDominator]

Teams with weaker QB's need FAR more luck to get there. Hell, to get past Brees and the Saints at home, Alex Smith's Niners required FIVE New Orleans turnovers, and still barely won! The next week, SF's luck ran out, primarily due to Smith and the offense being 1 of 11 or something on 3rd downs.

Teams with superior QB's have more of a margin for error. The Packers had one of the worst defenses in the NFL yet they went 15-1 last season.

Obviously. My point isn't that you should stop looking for your "superior QB". My point is that you have to balance the resources expended obtaining, retaining, and waiting for that magic against what else you could get. Some sh*thead like Matt Hasselback could do some serious damage if you just gave up on chasing the next Brady/Elway/Marino and stacked the rest of the team.

[Jetsfan80]

Obviously. My point isn't that you should stop looking for your "superior QB". My point is that you have to balance the resources expended obtaining, retaining, and waiting for that magic against what else you could get. Some sh*thead like Matt Hasselback could do some serious damage if you just gave up on chasing the next Brady/Elway/Marino and stacked the rest of the team.

Well that clearly seems to be something we're trying to do, otherwise we wouldn't have loaded up on defense in this year's draft. And, obviously, there are only a handful of those elite QB's at any given time so you need to get the Brett Favre's and Matt Hasselbeck's of the world every once in a while....something I would have NO problem with.

That being said, you can't GIVE UP on the chase to get your franchise QB. We need to start, at the very least, drafting a middle round QB every single season. You never know when a Russell Wilson-type will pop for you, and the rewards can be great in that instance.

[stoicsentry]

Teams with weaker QB's need FAR more luck to get there. Hell, to get past Brees and the Saints at home, Alex Smith's Niners required FIVE New Orleans turnovers, and still barely won!

Turnovers are not "luck" alone.

And even if you really believe they are...

The next week, SF's luck ran out, primarily due to Smith and the offense being 1 of 11 or something on 3rd downs.

...then isn't the Giants "luck" relevant here? Didn't the 49ers fumble two kickoffs, setting up the Giants basically in the redzone both times?

[Jetsfan80]

Turnovers are not "luck" alone.

And even if you really believe they are...

...then isn't the Giants "luck" relevant here? Didn't the 49ers fumble two kickoffs, setting up the Giants basically in the redzone both times?

Sure, the Giants caught some breaks, just like they did in their 2007 run. But if the Niners had taken control of their destiny and converted more of their 3rd downs, those fumbles never happen. It's funny how the teams that CONSISTENTLY seem like they get the luck (Patriots and Giants especially) also have great QB's. They have the ability to take advantage of their breaks.

[#27TheDominator]

Well that clearly seems to be something we're trying to do, otherwise we wouldn't have loaded up on defense in this year's draft. And, obviously, there are only a handful of those elite QB's at any given time so you need to get the Brett Favre's and Matt Hasselbeck's of the world every once in a while....something I would have NO problem with.

That being said, you can't GIVE UP on the chase to get your franchise QB. We need to start, at the very least, drafting a middle round QB every single season. You never know when a Russell Wilson-type will pop for you, and the rewards can be great in that instance.

Dude, we draft those sh*theads all the time. You can't keep drafting guys and not developing them and if you keep drafting them you can't develop them. If anything I think they have put too much stock in the Ron Wolf Rule. Since Tannebaum took over they have drafted: Clemens (2nd-2006), Ainge (5th 2008), Sanchez (1st 2009), McElroy (7th 2011), PLUS trading for O'Connell, Favre and Tebow. You simply can't expect to draft more QBs than that. You have to develop what you have and it takes a couple of years to evaluate. You also can't just randomly pick "middle round QB every single season" because the value simply might not be there. Exactly which of those "middle round QBs" has panned out for another team since Tanny got here?

[Matt39]

Brady was awful against Baltimore. Evans dropping that pass in the endzone and Cundiff being a douche had nothing to do with the Pats having an elite QB.

[#27TheDominator]

Sure, the Giants caught some breaks, just like they did in their 2007 run. But if the Niners had taken control of their destiny and converted more of their 3rd downs, those fumbles never happen. It's funny how the teams that CONSISTENTLY seem like they get the luck (Patriots and Giants especially) also have great QB's. They have the ability to take advantage of their breaks.

Niners might have won if they did better than 1-13 on 3rd down, but I'm pretty sure the Giants still would have been punting and the guy fumbled two punts.

[SenorGato]

Meh, I think we tend to underrate Ben's early career successes. Would Sanchez, no matter how good our defense gets, ever be capable of a 15-1 season? You don't get to that level without having ability to make the throws when needed, and Ben had it. He further proved it by winning a 2nd Super Bowl.

I don't think I'm underrating his success. That's really how they used him early on and only in the recent years have their veered way off of that (because he's gotten way better as QB). The difference between him and Sanchez is that he was much better at running that offense than Sanchez was and apparently is.

Roethlisberger is a monster who would have a much sharper reputation if he didn't spend his free time getting crunk, crashing bikes, and banging out hos.

[Jetsfan80]

Dude, we draft those sh*theads all the time. You can't keep drafting guys and not developing them and if you keep drafting them you can't develop them. If anything I think they have put too much stock in the Ron Wolf Rule. Since Tannebaum took over they have drafted: Clemens (2nd-2006), Ainge (5th 2008), Sanchez (1st 2009), McElroy (7th 2011), PLUS trading for O'Connell, Favre and Tebow. You simply can't expect to draft more QBs than that. You have to develop what you have and it takes a couple of years to evaluate. You also can't just randomly pick "middle round QB every single season" because the value simply might not be there. Exactly which of those "middle round QBs" has panned out for another team since Tanny got here?

I'm saying you draft a middle round QB every single year in hopes one of them pans out. Not a 7th rounder like McElroy or NE's scrub backup like O'Connell. Clemens and Sanchez have been our only legit attempts to bring in a potential starter via the draft. Ainge is maybe borderline in that regard. Draft a 3rd-4th round QB every single season, if not a 1st-2nd rounder until we find our own franchise QB.

[SenorGato]

I'm saying you draft a middle round QB every single year in hopes one of them pans out. Not a 7th rounder like McElroy or NE's scrub backup like O'Connell. Clemens and Sanchez have been our only legit attempts to bring in a potential starter via the draft. Ainge is maybe borderline in that regard. Draft a 3rd-4th round QB every single season, if not a 1st-2nd rounder until we find our own franchise QB.

Still think the Pats stole Mallett (and obviously Brady) on this philosophy.

Tannenbaum generally tries to do this, but like you say Ainge is really the only truly borderline attempt. I like McElroy more as a pro than I did him in college, but as a backup.

[SMC]

Sure, the Giants caught some breaks, just like they did in their 2007 run. But if the Niners had taken control of their destiny and converted more of their 3rd downs, those fumbles never happen. It's funny how the teams that CONSISTENTLY seem like they get the luck (Patriots and Giants especially) also have great QB's. They have the ability to take advantage of their breaks.

It's the diminishment of negative variables. Similar to the Yankees in the dynasty era. The elite QB removes a number of negative variables and, thus, the team is in a better position to take advantage of the breaks.

[#27TheDominator]

I'm saying you draft a middle round QB every single year in hopes one of them pans out. Not a 7th rounder like McElroy or NE's scrub backup like O'Connell. Clemens and Sanchez have been our only legit attempts to bring in a potential starter via the draft. Ainge is maybe borderline in that regard. Draft a 3rd-4th round QB every single season, if not a 1st-2nd rounder until we find our own franchise QB.

How do you develop a QB if you have to decide about cutting one EVERY year? Or do you plan on cutting your 3rd-4th rounder fairly regularly? You cannot possibly know if these guys are players in less than 2 years.

[Jetsfan80]

How do you develop a QB if you have to decide about cutting one EVERY year? Or do you plan on cutting your 3rd-4th rounder fairly regularly? You cannot possibly know if these guys are players in less than 2 years.

You know pretty quickly if a QB "has it" or not. Who cares about how many QB's you have to cut? A franchise QB is pretty much all that seems to matter these days, so you do what you can until you find one. Along the way, you can also feel free to pick up some stopgap QB's like a Favre or Hasselbeck.

I don't see an issue with having "too many QB's". Next year, for instance, we're probably dumping either Tebow, Sanchez, or both depending on what happens. We'll then bring in 1 or 2 QB's to replace them, maybe a veteran capable of starting and a 1st or 2nd rounder. The next year, if needed, we cut 3rd-stringer McElroy and bring in another one in the 3rd or 4th if need be. The next year, we re-evaluate.

And in an instance where you have a Matt Flynn type on the bench, you trade him.

[T0mShane]

Winning a Super Bowl with a bad QB is like trying to win an NBA title with a team full of white dudes. Can it happen? Sure. Likely? Bitch, please.

/noracist